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Miura Golf sold, new owner plans “significant investment”

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Miura Golf has a new owner who will make a “significant investment” in the Japanese golf equipment brand, sources close to the matter have told GolfWRX. We have also learned that True Spec Golf will manage worldwide sales and distribution of Miura products.

Miura currently sells a full line of ultra-premium golf equipment that is designed and manufactured by Miura Founder Katsuhiro Miura and his sons (Yoshitaka and Shinei) at the company’s manufacturing facility in Himeji, Japan. The family’s hands-on approach to its business has been an important part of its success. According to GolfWRX sources, the Miuras’ involvement in the design and manufacturing of its products “will remain the same.”

Miura Founder Katsuhiro Miura has been making handcrafted forged golf clubs since 1957. According to Miura, professional golfers have won several major championships using its clubs, specifically its forged players irons, without endorsement contracts. The company has also produced forged irons for Nike and TaylorMade, and K.J. Choi used a set of Miura CB-501 irons to win The Players Championship in 2011.

Miura was once an undisputed leader in the ultra-premium golf equipment category, but the company’s presence at retailers has declined in recent years due increased competition, specifically from upstart equipment manufacturer PXG. PXG was founded by billionaire Bob Parsons in 2014 and sells its irons at the starting price of $350 per head.

Miura's new Genesis irons are designed to be "easier to hit" and sell for $350 per head.

Miura’s new Genesis irons.

A Miura brand re-launch will focus on “exposing Miura clubs to consumers worldwide” and “simplifying” the company’s product line, GolfWRX sources said. The company currently offers more than a dozen different iron models. Just as important will also be an increased emphasis on creating highly engineered irons that are “easier for more golfers to hit,” such the company’s new Genesis irons (pictured), which were recently launched and sell for $350 per head.

GolfWRX will continue to follow this story as it unfolds. An official announcement from Miura is expected this week.

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62 Comments

62 Comments

  1. Rich

    Jan 10, 2017 at 7:52 am

    With “significant investment” comes significant expectation. Profit that is. With high profit expectation comes compromise. If you want a set of real Miura irons, buy them now before the investor/shareholder profit expectation [email protected]&ks them up.

  2. Bert

    Jan 9, 2017 at 9:13 pm

    I was a Miura dealer for several years (as a custom clubfitter/clubmaker). I would purchase heads only and do the custom assembly as per customer’s specs that were determined through the fitting process (about 4 hours). I even had a personal set for a while. No doubt about it, they are beautiful clubs. Now when it comes to performance – did they out-perform the other brands? The answer is no. Once we determined the ideal shaft length/weight/flex for a golfer, the next step in the process is to determine the correct and best performing head for the golfer. More often than not, I could get a golfer hitting other brands (such as Wishon, Alpha, Swing Science) heads better and more consistent than the Miura designs. You can’t script this stuff, performance trumps all. The golfer could see, touch, and feel it right then and there during the fitting – FlightScope, impact labels, and golfer feedback on FEEL would concur. Many times people would come to me with the intention of buying Miura clubs from me (usually doctors, lawyers, the more “professional” type folks), [and my custom build Miuras were NOT cheap by any means], but in a very high percentage I would have them hitting another brand better (when comparing equal loft to equal loft). My personal set was very nice (and expensive too), but I did not play any better with my Miura set than I did with any of my other personal sets (three sets of Wishon irons, one set of Alpha irons, and one set of Swing Science irons). Not bashing the Miura product, as previously mentioned it is absolutely gorgeous stuff – just that the wicked high price a golfer will pay for them will not buy them a better game. The absolute most important factor with golf clubs is to have them PROPERLY fit by a certified & qualified clubfitter, and then made to YOUR specifications – that will make a difference in your game. It will be interesting to see what the new owners come up with in the future.

    • Florian

      Aug 31, 2019 at 4:33 am

      I cannot really confirm that as a long time clubmaker but I can agree that you just can’t buy performance. What you’re paying for is the feel of hitting Miuras and a bit of history. However, Miuras quality is still outstanding and unmatched by pretty much every other manufacturer. All the heads have the exact weight and specs we need them to have. You can adapt them easily in regards to lie, loft and weight. This is not the case with most other clubs. And yes, there are cheaper brands with the same opportunities but they are not known and less popular. After decades it’s extremely rare that a player moved back to another brand after having played a custom built set of Miuras. What I have to admit is that the range is not particularly broad so there might be players to whom another head fits better. But these cases are very rare.

  3. Adam

    Jan 9, 2017 at 8:57 pm

    So has True Spec Golf bought the american part of Miura Golf, the article states Miura Golf and Miura Golf Inc is an american incorporated company from my understanding. Or has True Spec Golf bought also the Japanese based company as well, which is know as Miura Giken a.k.a Miura Giken Co. Ltd, which predominantly serves the Japanese market for products. Outside of Japan Miura golf irons and known as branded as Miura but within Japan products are branded as MiuraGiken!

  4. Mark

    Jan 9, 2017 at 7:20 pm

    Never has so small a company had so many comments. I see Miura as something like Patek in watches. Beautifully made, limited production runs and only sold through a select group of retailers to guarantee exclusivity. Problem is they tell the same time as a Rolex or Omega at a fraction of the cost. And in Golf terms won’t do anything a Mizuno or Srixon blade will do.

    • Bling

      Jan 9, 2017 at 8:21 pm

      But it’s the Bling! We all want the Bling!

    • Jim

      Jan 9, 2017 at 9:58 pm

      Actually, standard spec (closer to 80’s traditional blade lofts) Miura have been beating all comers on Trackman in our indoor/outdoor fittings.
      NO major OEM focus’ on the hosel, which has been Miura’s “secret” of success. Titleist, TM, Mizuno or Nike (we’ve reshafted or pured hundreds of sets) have loose ill fitting hosels, the heads are generally poorly weight stepped, the insert depths are inconsistent & the bore often off center.
      Miura says the hosel is the most important part of the head, and he sure seams to be right.

      Our Miura heads come with a pilot hole so we bore them for either taper or parralel tips, and have to pound the heads down to seat them fully. Mizuno dimples their shafts because there’s so much play. Vastly tighter head to shaft fit transmits more energy and the buttery soft but rock solid feel.
      I’ve witnessed DOZENS of ‘standard issue’ mid-low hcp players <90mph hit Miura 6 irons 7-14 yrds longer than ANY major OEM product (not always the same shaft – but always close weight/flex wise during fittings). Stronger players were averaging 15 yrds longer AND 30% LESS dispersion.
      We're on all Top 25, Top 50 & Top 100 fitting/custom&pro shop listsn and from 2007-2013 these numbers were consistent.
      Best Ever.

      Newer forgings and hot lofted models from EPON and occasionally PXG have edged them on length, but NEVER on feel. PXG's need spacers for TT shafts….wtf's up w/that Mr. P?

  5. Dave R

    Jan 9, 2017 at 5:09 pm

    I like the lawyer dude, he’s got it figured out.

  6. JThunder

    Jan 9, 2017 at 4:58 pm

    Yuck

  7. ZJohnson

    Jan 9, 2017 at 4:37 pm

    It could be True Spec as their owner has tons of money and tons of wealthy investors. They bought Club Conex last year and paid much more than the original owner was asking for. Granted Club Conex is nowhere near what he would have to pay for Miura. I would put my money on it being Parsons though. Before he started PXG, he had a massive love affair with Miura. He had 10 or so sets of the 1957 baby’s done in the black boron. That was just the start of it too. I bet he spent over $100 g’s on Miura product alone in less than 18 months. I could see him using their expertise to grow PXG even faster in the Asian markets.

  8. Wilson

    Jan 9, 2017 at 3:08 pm

    yeah, i’m thinking it’s TourSpecGolf, an ultra premium retailer that’s been around for a while. True Spec Golf looks like it’s a large scale golf fitting facility, which could also make sense.

    hmm…real head scratcher. if i was betting i would go with TourSpecGolf though.

    https://www.tourspecgolf.com
    http://truespecgolf.com/

    • Zak Kozuchowski

      Jan 9, 2017 at 3:54 pm

      True Spec Golf is correct

    • Bling

      Jan 9, 2017 at 8:23 pm

      TourSpec only wishes it could have that kind of money, them scammers that they are

      • Skip

        Jan 10, 2017 at 12:08 pm

        Agreed. None of their Miura product were acquired legitimately.

    • Adam

      Jan 9, 2017 at 9:04 pm

      What have they bought Miura Golf (i think an american incorporated company) or Miura Giken (Japanese incorporated company) or both companies. Miura Golf is the company for international sales, whilst MiuraGiken is for the Japanese market

      • Neil Cameron

        Jan 10, 2017 at 2:58 am

        i think they have bought Miura manufacturing,and appointed True spec as the distributer.
        will include all Miura heads,look for a coming together and simplification of the product line

  9. Tom

    Jan 9, 2017 at 3:05 pm

    $350 a head! The hood ornament on my Roll’s cost less then that.

    • Doug

      Jan 9, 2017 at 4:02 pm

      …THAN that. Sorry, I’m a 2nd grade teacher. Can’t help myself. 😉

      • RedX

        Jan 9, 2017 at 4:11 pm

        A quick read through of the contributions here suggest you have considerably more correcting to do Doug ! Don’t stop now…

      • Tom

        Jan 10, 2017 at 2:53 pm

        no prob. and thank you

    • The geek

      Jan 9, 2017 at 8:38 pm

      Nah – I drove a rolls once with the prom queen – the grill alone was 5 grand (I didn’t have 5 grand) and that was back in the 80’s

      Hood ornament has to be $$$$

    • Jeffrey Purtell

      Jan 10, 2017 at 1:03 am

      Yeah, but you can only hit it 20 yards.

    • HumbleBrag?

      Jan 10, 2017 at 7:13 pm

      Toot toot! Jack would be a great fit — played the cb57’s at father/son. I’ve owned a few sets and can say it’s more than just conspicuous consumption. Played my best golf, purest golf with these.

  10. Jericho

    Jan 9, 2017 at 3:03 pm

    The reason I’ve had three sets of Miura blades including two sets of the 1957 Limited addition baby blade is because they were forged and ground by the man himself “the hands of God” .. ..now they are going to be forged and ground by “the hands of some guy who used to work for another company and now is going to get a paycheck to drive over to the shop to work here..”. .. umm ..I was somewhat on the fence with getting another set of baby blades ..I think I’ll go look at those 0311T’s

    • Skip

      Jan 10, 2017 at 12:11 pm

      not to burst your bubble, but those heads aren’t “hand forged” like some magical sword in Game of Thrones. Hand ground yes, hand forged no.

      • Jericho

        Jan 10, 2017 at 1:12 pm

        Skip yea I know these heads had the bejesus pounded out of them with tons of pressure with a machine I’m just saying ..ok we’re kinda getting from the story here ..although the Game of Thrones magical sword reference was a good one lol

      • FlyPhish

        Jan 10, 2017 at 1:42 pm

        The “Blades of a Thousand Truths”

  11. Mark

    Jan 9, 2017 at 2:02 pm

    I have spent time in the True Spec facility at Turnberry and it is certainly high end (PXG is currently one of the brands for which they fit). So if this is going to be the access point for Miura, it is not obvious to me why this would make Miura, in a negative way, become a mainstream brand. I am also wondering if any of the True Spec investors are involved with the Miura purchase.

  12. cgasucks

    Jan 9, 2017 at 1:55 pm

    I hope they’ll still let Mr. Miura or at least his sons overlook the forging and grinding of the clubheads in Japan instead of contracting it out to other Japanese or worse, Chinese foundries. If that is the case say goodbye to its mystique that what made them so successful in the first place.

    • Tom

      Jan 9, 2017 at 3:08 pm

      who’s to say they weren’t doing that prior to the sell of the company?

      • cgasucks

        Jan 9, 2017 at 6:10 pm

        Yeah…I didn’t read the article property…from what it says, despite the new ownership, the Miura family will keep doing what they’re doing..

  13. S Hitty

    Jan 9, 2017 at 1:45 pm

    It’s the specialst, high-end, personal touch of Miura is what made it what it is. Now that it will become a global slave, it’ll just suffer like the rest of them.

    • Yep

      Jan 9, 2017 at 3:55 pm

      Almost my comment exactly. People pay for Miura. Not so bullish on Miura-by-Dave.

  14. Craigie73

    Jan 9, 2017 at 1:24 pm

    I heard it’s Jack Nicklaus

  15. Jim

    Jan 9, 2017 at 1:13 pm

    “The family’s hands-on approach to its business has been an important part of its success.” That is why they were so successful – it’ll be all downhill from here. And just yesterday I was thinking of finding a set of Baby Blades.

    • thomas murphy

      Jan 9, 2017 at 1:18 pm

      I would have that fear also, I am hoping that the “investment” is mainly in marketing and sales channel development but they will keep the product line simple – could be broader investment into wider line of product (drivers etc) but yeah, this now puts me on the path to get my next irons sooner rather than later.

  16. Justin

    Jan 9, 2017 at 12:45 pm

    I googled Tru spec Golf – are you sure that is the correct name?

  17. Dat

    Jan 9, 2017 at 12:21 pm

    Sounds like the investor wants to sell heads at or above PXG pricing. If so, say goodnight to Miura.

    • Tom

      Jan 9, 2017 at 2:51 pm

      They’re already the same price at a little over $2k per set.

  18. Dave

    Jan 9, 2017 at 12:09 pm

    Looks like my Baby Blades are going up in value. I’ve seen this movie a thousand times…new buyer capitalizes on a mostly untapped global market with a great family name by mass producing lesser quality products at the same or higher prices. I sure hope I’m wrong…

    • Joseph R Dreitler

      Jan 9, 2017 at 2:54 pm

      “…new buyer capitalizes on a mostly untapped global market with a great family name by mass producing lesser quality products at the same or higher prices.” you nailed it. The seller gets a 3 year contract to stay away (er, consult), the new buyer puts its own people running the business and decides to “leverage” the brand by putting it on a lot more “stuff” to increase their revenue and at some point, flip it public and make a bundle.
      Anyone here old enough to remember when Wilson WAS a really good brand of sporting goods, including golf clubs? The owners sold out to Pepsi Cola (seriously) and Pepsi did all of the above, the quality became garbage and Wilson has been sold and re-sold more than a dozen times.

  19. Tom

    Jan 9, 2017 at 12:03 pm

    I can’t assume they would’ve made a move if they weren’t starting to go into red figures, but I can’t see things remaining the same. They aren’t main stream irons, and shouldn’t be main stream irons. Not only do you have to have the money to buy them ( I had to wait a long time and sell a lot of clubs to get a set of these), but you have to have the game to appreciate them.

    If they become more mass-produced, I can’t see how you’ll still find the Hands of God himself at the end of the line, hand grinding every set. I know he made my sets, and I will hold onto them. This is a sad day. I guess one set will stay in the bag, and the other will go up on the wall.

    Long live the hands of god, I wish the company the best, but unfortunately I feel it’s a waste of breath to say “don’t go changin.” At best, I could see him continuing to have the same role in making the players clubs.

    Couldn’t super rich guy just have bought them to keep them the same? Between Tiger and Rory, they both owe some gratitude to this guy, maybe they could make a donation? HA.

  20. Jim

    Jan 9, 2017 at 12:00 pm

    Bummer.

  21. Joseph R Dreitler

    Jan 9, 2017 at 11:47 am

    I’ve been a lawyer for 40 years. I’ve worked on more “deals” than I can count. 99 and 44/100% of the time, the acquiring company is larger than the seller. And the acquiring company has a lot more overhead to put on top of the company they acquired. And to pay for the acquisition costs (often with borrowed funds) and to increase their profits, very often the acquiring company cuts costs. Marketing, R&D, Product Development, etc. It usually takes 2-3 years before this becomes apparent, but watch out Titleist. As for Miura, since this doesn’t say who acquired it, I would like to hope that the new owner will not cut corners to pay down the debt of the money they borrowed for the acquisition. But, my experience says I wouldn’t bet more than a Coke or a beer on that.

    • Swingblade

      Jan 9, 2017 at 2:56 pm

      Just ask yourselves what would be the likely result if Taylormade bought PXG. Within three to five years, PXG as we know it today, would simply be a memory and mass production of gimmicky twists on the former PXG design fundamentals would be the mainstay of the TM PXG line.

      But, Miura is a completely different animal than PXG in so many ways. As said above, the new owners will have an agenda to significantly increase both revenue and profits. No matter what they say, they will have no sincere or meaningful agenda to maintain the unique Miura heritage of craftsmanship.

      I hope that my pessimism based on past business experience is unfounded. I hope that the formal announcement will completely dispel such concerns in no uncertain terms.

      Sadly, the gentleman below perhaps said it best, “Cue Jim Morrison … ‘This is the end.”

      I feel very fortunate to have complete sets of CB 57’s and K Grinds.

      • W

        Jan 10, 2017 at 3:26 am

        Well yeah, Miura has been around for a while now, and their expertise is second to none, with beautifully forged clubs with individual care, rather than the clunky machine-factory pumped PXG junk with rivets from WW2.

  22. Eric

    Jan 9, 2017 at 11:46 am

    Don’t tamper with greatness. Long live the Miura treasures like the MB and Tournament Blades, CB57 Irons, and Y and K Grind Wedges

  23. Blake

    Jan 9, 2017 at 11:42 am

    Tour spec golf*

  24. Mike Honcho

    Jan 9, 2017 at 11:42 am

    Queue Jim Morrison… “This is the end…”

    • Cue

      Jan 9, 2017 at 11:52 am

      Take a cue from me… Jim Morrison waits in line for no one.

      • Queue

        Jan 9, 2017 at 12:05 pm

        What the heck would you know, Cue? You a psycho drug addict too? Yeah, huh?

      • Maggie M'Gill

        Jan 9, 2017 at 9:20 pm

        He waited in line for me.

  25. M....

    Jan 9, 2017 at 11:23 am

    As long as the CB-501 isn’t changed before I get a set…

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Equipment

GolfWRX Member Experience: TaylorMade Milled Grind 3 wedge fitting at The Kingdom

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We had four very lucky GolfWRXers who got to take a trip down to TaylorMade’s Kingdom at Reynolds Lake Oconee to get fit for the new Milled Grind 3 wedges (which arrival at retail today). And as if that weren’t enough, the fortunate forum members also got to take a trip to the Tour Championship at East Lake for a peek inside the TaylorMade truck and a look at Wade Liles’ beard in the flesh, or…hair.

While there are plenty more observations and a full gallery of photos in the forum thread, we wanted to highlight recaps from a couple of the four WRXers (@drvrwdge, @madeinguam81, @agadawg17171, @rebby).

@drvrwdge

So just to kind of reiterate what everybody else has already said, Greg was our fitter for the wedges. Greg chased the dream for seven or eight years and had his tour card at one point but his love and passion for club design ended up taking him down a different path. Greg has always been super passionate about the short game and wedges and played an integral part in the design of the MG3 wedge.

Greg gave a brief presentation in the morning about the design characteristics of the MG3 how it differed from the MG2 and why they did what they did design-wise with the new wedge. In short, the design is all about optimizing launch and spin conditions to make the wedges as accurate as possible. Movement of material and the shape to optimize feel and center of gravity location for the proper trajectory control. Center of gravity, which is progressive through the set, which is what a lot of people do placing it higher in higher lofted wedges to keep trajectory down and lower in the lower lifted wedges to keep it up. There is a new groove or face feature this year in addition to the raw face. They have actual raised ridges, where with the MG2 used laser etching on the face which they realized wore off faster than they wanted it to. With the raised ridges that is not an issue. This was primarily done for additional spin in that less than 60-yard range as opposed to more spin on full shots. There was also some slight changes made to the sole and grinds in the different bounce options to optimize turf conditions as well.

For me hands-down the club that absolutely stood out as head and shoulders above the rest and actually took me into a direction I never thought I would go was the 46° pitching wedge. I have never understood playing a non-set pitching wedge especially one that is not the same brand as your iron set but with the way Greg was able to explain the advantages of playing the non-set wedge, he was able to change my mindset to looking at the wedges as a set of clubs as well as looking as the irons as a set of clubs but having those be able to be two different sets really convinced me to go this route. And trust me when I say it’s probably the best-looking club I’ve ever seen. The lines, the shape, the size, the way the leading edge sits on the ground and the flow of the hosel into the top line it’s just absolutely perfect. And on top of all that it just flat outperforms.

I currently play SM8’s and Greg was able to get me into some different bounces than I normally have played which greatly improved my turf interaction on full and partial shots which in turn got me into my optimal launch and spin conditions. And they flat out just feel better than my Vokeys. I have never been able to do a wedge fitting on grass and I can honestly say if you are serious about your game, there’s absolutely no other way to do it. For me, that was the greatest thing about this trip, because I just don’t have anywhere near me that I could have done a wedge fitting on grass. And I had somebody with the knowledge to fit me properly.

…We hit shots from 70 yards with a 58/60 the full shots. We then went to the short game area for chips and pitches. Honestly the spin, launch and carry numbers didn’t different a huge amount from my current SM8 58M, Greg actually said my numbers were ideal and almost to the number the same as Collin’s (humble brag). What I did find was that they were more consistent getting away from the M grind. Turf interaction was much cleaner, and you could really feel the club enter and exit much quicker. And as I stated previously, the feel off of the face was much better. Softer and more solid.

Where I really think the raw face technology and the raised ridges shined was chips and pitches. Was easily able to hit the 20-yardd one-hop stop pitches with the MG3 where I wasn’t able to with the SM8. Keep in mind some of that may be related to the bounce as well. Cleaner turf interaction = cleaner contact = more spin.

@agadawg17171

I’m a 100 percent club ho and try just about every wedge that comes out. Over the years I’ve played them all. But I’m the end I go back to Vokey. They’re consistent and I like the more classic look. The MG3’s grabbed my eye as soon as I saw them on the forums for the first time. Then I got to see one in person at PGA SS and was even more intrigued. They just looked so good!!! The shapes were traditional with incredible lines. I knew right away I wanted to try them. I actually had a fitting scheduled until I got the email that I was selected for this experience.  Once I got the email, I knew I had to make it happen!

After hitting a few balls with my current gamers Greg put the MG3’s in my hand. These wedges are ??. My spin was up. The descent angle of the ball was better as well. The ball flight was great. But the thing that impressed me the most was the turf interaction. These wedges glide through the turf and do not dig! The CG and weighting has been moved up and out of the heel which makes them feel much more balanced and stable through the shot. The sound and feel are also much improved over the MG2.

I’ve always wanted a wedge with higher bounce that sits flat on ground at address. Greg and his team have made that happen without having to get a custom grind which is $$$ and tough to get your hands on. It allowed me to hit a bigger variety of shots, especially with my 54.

After running them through the gauntlet on the range, we went to the short game area. Things got even better down there! We took a few different bounce options and my gamers and dialed things in. The chip shots were drop-and-stop from a variety of conditions. Again the sole set perfectly behind the ball for my eyes and glided through the turf without digging. Even on mis-hits the ball was still close to the intended landing area. I was very impressed. At that point, I was pretty much sold but wanted to try it in the bunkers. Took the 60 into the bunkers and started with short shots to a tucked pin. I was able to get the ball up quick over about a 4-foot lip and onto the green. When the balls hit the green, they had a controlled spin and very little roll out past my target. After the bunker work, I knew I wanted them no matter the price!

The combo I went with is below.

  • 46 bent to 45 with steel fiber 110 CW
  • 50/8, 54/13, 60/12
  • Modus 125 Wedge
  • Went 1* Flat and 1/4” long. Can’t wait to get them in hand and will post more.

Check out the full thread here for more!

 

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Coolest thing for sale in the GolfWRX Classifieds (09/3/21): Scotty Cameron TeI3 T22 Newport 2 putter

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At GolfWRX, we love golf, plain and simple.

We are a community of like-minded individuals that all experience and express our enjoyment of the game in many ways. It’s that sense of community that drives day-to-day interactions in the forums on topics that range from best driver to what marker you use to mark your ball. It even allows us to share another thing we all love – buy and selling equipment.

Currently, in our GolfWRX buy/sell/trade (BST) forum, there is a listing for a Scotty Cameron TeI3 T22 Newport 2 putter

From the seller (@Beege35): “Scotty Cameron TeI3 T22 Newport 2 — $1200. Brand new, never rolled a putt, tape still on face and sole. 34 inches.”

To check out the full listing in our BST forum, head through the link: Scotty Cameron TeI3 T22 Newport 2 putter

This is the most impressive current listing from the GolfWRX BST, and if you are curious about the rules to participate in the BST Forum you can check them out here: GolfWRX BST Rules

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Whats in the Bag

Photos from the 2021 Tour Championship

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GolfWRX is live on the ground at the Tour Championship at East Lake for the final event of the FedEx Cup Playoffs.

We braved the soggy early-week weather to gather four general galleries as well as shots of some cool new shaft offerings and some Odyssey/Toulon putters.

Check out all our photos below!

Tuesday

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See what GolfWRXers are saying and join the discussion in the forums!

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