Opinion & Analysis
Wishon: The best way to fit lie angle
The higher the loft on the clubhead, the more critical it is to be dynamically fit for the correct lie angle. It is also important, however, to have the lie correctly fit for the fairway woods and hybrids to ensure solid impact consistency.
For the driver, lie angle is less of an accuracy issue due to its lower loft, but if the toe of the driver is severely up in the air in the address position — due to how the length chosen affects the set up of the lie for the golfer — the driver lie should definitely be fit to the golfer if for no other reason than confidence and psychological reasons.
Recent studies and observations have shown that the technique where an ink line is drawn on the back of the ball is better for dynamic lie fitting than using a lie board with tape on the sole of the iron. Plus the ink-line technique can also be done while hitting shots from normal mown grass lies so as to avoid having to hit the club down into a hard surface lie board, a practice which does bother some golfers and cause them to possibly swing differently than they do when hitting shots off grass.
The ink line on the back of the ball technique for dynamic lie fitting is simple and logical. A heavy ink line is drawn on the ball with a Sharpie pen. The ball is placed on the ground with the line vertical and facing the clubhead. After impact, a faint image of the ink line is transferred to the clubface. If the line is perfectly vertical on the clubface, the lie of the club is correct for the golfer. If the ink line tilts in an angle up toward the toe side of the face, the lie of the club that was hit is too upright so the correct lie has to be flatter than the lie of the club being hit. Vice versa — if the ink line angles up toward the heel side of the face, the correct lie has to be more upright than the lie of the test club.
In the near future, kits for this technique of dynamic lie fitting will become available that will include face labels with graduated lines to make the determination of the correct lie much easier and more definitive.
For the highest level of accuracy, dynamic lie fitting should be done as the last procedure in the fitting, using a test club(s) that possess every one of the golfer’s determined fitting specs for the clubhead model, length, shaft, swing weight (MOI) and grip size. In lieu of this, a test club for proper dynamic lie evaluation should at least have the length, shaft and swing weight that is found best for the golfer.
In an ideal world, the dynamic lie test should be done with each one of the golfer’s clubs. Obviously, this will take a good bit more time to do. As such, if time becomes an issue, it is OK to perform the dynamic lie test with every other club or even every third club, with the lies of the in-between irons calculated from the actual dynamic lies determined by each test club.
Related
- What length should your clubs be?
- What lofts should your clubs be?
- Face angle is crucial for a proper fitting
- The best way to fit lie angle
- How to choose the right club head design
- Tom Wishon’s keys to set makeup
- Getting the right size grip, time after time
- What shaft weight should you play?
- What swing weight should your clubs be?
- What shaft flex should I use?
This story is part of a 10-part series from Tom Wishon on professional club fitting.
- LIKE345
- LEGIT49
- WOW17
- LOL6
- IDHT3
- FLOP6
- OB4
- SHANK20
19th Hole
Vincenzi’s LIV Golf Singapore betting preview: Course specialist ready to thrive once again
After another strong showing in Australia, LIV Golf will head to Sentosa Golf Club in Singapore looking to build off of what was undoubtedly their best event to date.
Sentosa Golf Club sits on the southern tip of Singapore and is one of the most beautiful courses in the world. The course is more than just incredible scenically; it was also rated 55th in Golf Digest’s top-100 courses in 2022-2023 and has been consistently regarded as one of the best courses in Asia. Prior to being part of the LIV rotation, the course hosted the Singapore Open every year since 2005.
Sentosa Golf Club is a par 71 measuring 7,406 yards. The course will require precise ball striking and some length off the tee. It’s possible to go low due to the pristine conditions, but there are also plenty of hazards and difficult spots on the course that can bring double bogey into play in a hurry. The Bermudagrass greens are perfectly manicured, and the course has spent millions on the sub-air system to keep the greens rolling fast. I spoke to Asian Tour player, Travis Smyth, who described the greens as “the best [he’s] ever played.”
Davis Love III, who competed in a Singapore Open in 2019, also gushed over the condition of the golf course.
“I love the greens. They are fabulous,” the 21-time PGA Tour winner said.
Love III also spoke about other aspects of the golf course.
“The greens are great; the fairways are perfect. It is a wonderful course, and it’s tricky off the tee.”
“It’s a long golf course, and you get some long iron shots. It takes somebody hitting it great to hit every green even though they are big.”
As Love III said, the course can be difficult off the tee due to the length of the course and the trouble looming around every corner. It will take a terrific ball striking week to win at Sentosa Golf Club.
In his pre-tournament press conference last season, Phil Mickelson echoed many of the same sentiments.
“To play Sentosa effectively, you’re going to have a lot of shots from 160 to 210, a lot of full 6-, 7-, 8-iron shots, and you need to hit those really well and you need to drive the ball well.”
Golfers who excel from tee to green and can dial in their longer irons will have a massive advantage this week.
Stat Leaders at LIV Golf Adelaide:
Fairways Hit
1.) Louis Oosthuizen
2.) Anirban Lahiri
3.) Jon Rahm
4.) Brendan Steele
5.) Cameron Tringale
Greens in Regulation
1.) Brooks Koepka
2.) Brendan Steele
3.) Dean Burmester
4.) Cameron Tringale
5.) Anirban Lahiri
Birdies Made
1.) Brendan Steele
2.) Dean Burmester
3.) Thomas Pieters
4.) Patrick Reed
5.) Carlos Ortiz
LIV Golf Individual Standings:
1.) Joaquin Niemann
2.) Jon Rahm
3.) Dean Burmester
4.) Louis Oosthuizen
5.) Abraham Ancer
LIV Golf Team Standings:
1.) Crushers
2.) Legion XIII
3.) Torque
4.) Stinger GC
5.) Ripper GC
LIV Golf Singapore Picks
Sergio Garcia +3000 (DraftKings)
Sergio Garcia is no stranger to Sentosa Golf Club. The Spaniard won the Singapore Open in 2018 by five strokes and lost in a playoff at LIV Singapore last year to scorching hot Talor Gooch. Looking at the course setup, it’s no surprise that a player like Sergio has played incredible golf here. He’s long off the tee and is one of the better long iron players in the world when he’s in form. Garcia is also statistically a much better putter on Bermudagrass than he is on other putting surfaces. He’s putt extremely well on Sentosa’s incredibly pure green complexes.
This season, Garcia has two runner-up finishes, both of them being playoff losses. Both El Camaleon and Doral are courses he’s had success at in his career. The Spaniard is a player who plays well at his tracks, and Sentosa is one of them. I believe Sergio will get himself in the mix this week. Hopefully the third time is a charm in Singapore.
Paul Casey +3300 (FanDuel)
Paul Casey is in the midst of one of his best seasons in the five years or so. The results recently have been up and down, but he’s shown that when he’s on a golf course that suits his game, he’s amongst the contenders.
This season, Casey has finishes of T5 (LIV Las Vegas), T2 (LIV Hong Kong), and a 6th at the Singapore Classic on the DP World Tour. At his best, the Englishman is one of the best long iron players in the world, which makes him a strong fit for Sentosa. Despite being in poor form last season, he was able to fire a Sunday 63, which shows he can low here at the course.
It’s been three years since Casey has won a tournament (Omega Dubai Desert Classic in 2021), but he’s been one of the top players on LIV this season and I think he can get it done at some point this season.
Mito Pereira +5000 (Bet365)
Since Mito Pereira’s unfortunate demise at the 2022 PGA Championship, he’s been extremely inconsistent. However, over the past few months, the Chilean has played well on the International Series as well as his most recent LIV start. Mito finished 8th at LIV Adelaide, which was his best LIV finish this season.
Last year, Pereira finished 5th at LIV Singapore, shooting fantastic rounds of 67-66-66. It makes sense why Mito would like Sentosa, as preeminent ball strikers tend to rise to the challenge of the golf course. He’s a great long iron player who is long and straight off the tee.
Mito has some experience playing in Asia and is one of the most talented players on LIV who’s yet to get in the winner’s circle. I have questions about whether or not he can come through once in contention, but if he gets there, I’m happy to roll the dice.
Andy Ogletree +15000 (DraftKings)
Andy Ogletree is a player I expected to have a strong 2024 but struggled early in his first full season on LIV. After failing to crack the top-25 in any LIV event this year, the former U.S. Amateur champion finally figured things out, finished in a tie for 3rd at LIV Adelaide.
Ogletree should be incredible comfortable playing in Singapore. He won the International Series Qatar last year and finished T3 at the International Series Singapore. The 26-year-old was arguably the best player on the Asian Tour in 2023 and has been fantastic in the continent over the past 18 months.
If Ogletree has indeed found form, he looks to be an amazing value at triple-digit odds.
- LIKE3
- LEGIT3
- WOW1
- LOL2
- IDHT0
- FLOP2
- OB0
- SHANK0
In Tampa, there is a golf course that boasts carts that do not work, a water range, and a group of players none of which have any chance to break 80. The course is overseen by a staff of crusty men who have succeeded at nothing in life but ending up at the worst-run course in America. However, this place is no failure. With several other local courses going out of business — and boasting outstanding greens — the place is booked full.
While I came for the great greens, I stayed to watch our resident instructor; a poor-tempered, method teacher who caters to the hopeless. At first, it was simply hilarious. However, after months of listening and watching, something clicked. I realized I had a front-row seat to the worst golf instructor in America.
Here are some of my key takeaways.
Method Teacher
It is widely accepted that there are three types of golf instructors: system teachers, non-system teachers, and method teachers. Method teachers prescribe the same antidote for each student based on a preamble which teachers can learn in a couple day certification.
Method teaching allows anyone to be certified. This process caters to the lowest caliber instructor, creating the illusion of competency. This empowers these underqualified instructors with the moniker of “certified” to prey on the innocent and uninformed.
The Cult of Stack and Jilt
The Stack and Tilt website proudly boasts, “A golfer swings his hands inward in the backswing as opposed to straight back to 1) create power, similar to a field goal kicker moving his leg in an arc and 2) to promote a swing that is in-to-out, which produces a draw (and eliminates a slice).”
Now, let me tell you something, there is this law of the universe which says “energy can either be created or destroyed,” so either these guys are defying physics or they have no idea what they are taking about. Further, the idea that the first move of the backswing determines impact is conjecture with a splash of utter fantasy.
These are the pontifications of a method — a set of prescriptions applied to everyone with the hope of some success through the placebo effect. It is one thing for a naive student to believe, for a golf instructor to drink and then dispel this Kool-Aid is malpractice.
Fooled by Randomness
In flipping a coin, or even a March Madness bet, there is a 50-50 chance of success. In golf, especially for new players, results are asymmetric. Simply put: Anything can happen. The problem is that when bad instructors work with high handicappers, each and every shot gets its own diagnosis and prescription. Soon the student is overwhelmed.
Now here’s the sinister thing: The overwhelming information is by design. In this case, the coach is not trying to make you better, they are trying to make you reliant on them for information. A quasi Stockholm syndrome of codependency.
Practice
One of the most important scientists of the 20th century was Ivan Pavlov. As you might recall, he found that animals, including humans, could be conditioned into biological responses. In golf, the idea of practice has made millions of hackers salivate that they are one lesson or practice session from “the secret.”
Sunk Cost
The idea for the worst golf instructor is to create control and dependency so that clients ignore the sunk cost of not getting better. Instead, they are held hostage by the idea that they are one lesson or tip away from unlocking their potential.
Cliches
Cliches have the effect of terminating thoughts. However, they are the weapon of choice for this instructor. Add some hyperbole and students actually get no information. As a result, these players couldn’t play golf. When they did, they had no real scheme. With no idea what they are doing, they would descend into a spiral of no idea what to do, bad results, lower confidence, and running back to the lesson tee from more cliches.
The fact is that poor instruction is about conditioning players to become reliant members of your cult. To take away autonomy. To use practice as a form of control. To sell more golf lessons not by making people better but through the guise that without the teacher, the student can never reach their full potential. All under the umbrella of being “certified” (in a 2-day course!) and a melee of cliches.
This of course is not just happening at my muni but is a systemic problem around the country and around the world, the consequences of which are giving people a great reason to stop playing golf. But hey, at least it’s selling a lot of golf balls…
- LIKE17
- LEGIT2
- WOW0
- LOL4
- IDHT1
- FLOP1
- OB0
- SHANK19
The PGA TOUR heads to New Orleans to play the 2023 Zurich Classic of New Orleans. In a welcome change from the usual stroke play, the Zurich Classic is a team event. On Thursday and Saturday, the teams play best ball, and on Friday and Sunday the teams play alternate shot.
TPC Louisiana is a par 72 that measures 7,425 yards. The course features some short par 4s and plenty of water and bunkers, which makes for a lot of exciting risk/reward scenarios for competitors. Pete Dye designed the course in 2004 specifically for the Zurich Classic, although the event didn’t make its debut until 2007 because of Hurricane Katrina.
Coming off of the Masters and a signature event in consecutive weeks, the field this week is a step down, and understandably so. Many of the world’s top players will be using this time to rest after a busy stretch.
However, there are some interesting teams this season with some stars making surprise appearances in the team event. Some notable teams include Patrick Cantlay and Xander Schauffele, Rory McIlroy and Shane Lowry, Collin Morikawa and Kurt Kitayama, Will Zalatoris and Sahith Theegala as well as a few Canadian teams, Nick Taylor and Adam Hadwin and Taylor Pendrith and Corey Conners.
Past Winners at TPC Louisiana
- 2023: Riley/Hardy (-30)
- 2022: Cantlay/Schauffele (-29)
- 2021: Leishman/Smith (-20)
- 2019: Palmer/Rahm (-26)
- 2018: Horschel/Piercy (-22)
- 2017: Blixt/Smith (-27)
2024 Zurich Classic of New Orleans Picks
Tom Hoge/Maverick McNealy +2500 (DraftKings)
Tom Hoge is coming off of a solid T18 finish at the RBC Heritage and finished T13 at last year’s Zurich Classic alongside Harris English.
This season, Hoge is having one of his best years on Tour in terms of Strokes Gained: Approach. In his last 24 rounds, the only player to top him on the category is Scottie Scheffler. Hoge has been solid on Pete Dye designs, ranking 28th in the field over his past 36 rounds.
McNealy is also having a solid season. He’s finished T6 at the Waste Management Phoenix Open and T9 at the PLAYERS Championship. He recently started working with world renowned swing coach, Butch Harmon, and its seemingly paid dividends in 2024.
Keith Mitchell/Joel Dahmen +4000 (DraftKings)
Keith Mitchell is having a fantastic season, finishing in the top-20 of five of his past seven starts on Tour. Most recently, Mitchell finished T14 at the Valero Texas Open and gained a whopping 6.0 strokes off the tee. He finished 6th at last year’s Zurich Classic.
Joel Dahmen is having a resurgent year and has been dialed in with his irons. He also has a T11 finish at the PLAYERS Championship at TPC Sawgrass which is another Pete Dye track. With Mitchell’s length and Dahmen’s ability to put it close with his short irons, the Mitchell/Dahmen combination will be dangerous this week.
Taylor Moore/Matt NeSmith +6500 (DraftKings)
Taylor Moore has quickly developed into one of the more consistent players on Tour. He’s finished in the top-20 in three of his past four starts, including a very impressive showing at The Masters, finishing T20. He’s also finished T4 at this event in consecutive seasons alongside Matt NeSmith.
NeSmith isn’t having a great 2024, but has seemed to elevate his game in this format. He finished T26 at Pete Dye’s TPC Sawgrass, which gives the 30-year-old something to build off of. NeSmith is also a great putter on Bermudagrass, which could help elevate Moore’s ball striking prowess.
- LIKE8
- LEGIT3
- WOW1
- LOL1
- IDHT0
- FLOP3
- OB1
- SHANK2
Dave Portnoy places monstrous outright bet for the 2024 Masters
John Daly stuns fans into silence with brutal opening tee shot on PGA Tour Champions
Justin Thomas on the equipment choice of Scottie Scheffler that he thinks is ‘weird’
Things got heated at the Houston Open between Tony Finau and Alejandro Tosti. Here’s why
Tiger Woods arrives at 2024 Masters equipped with a putter that may surprise you
‘Absolutely crazy’ – Major champ lays into Patrick Cantlay over his decision on final hole of RBC Heritage
Report: Tiger Woods has ‘eliminated sex’ in preparation for the 2024 Masters
Two star names reportedly blanked Jon Rahm all week at the Masters
2-time major champ announces shock retirement from the sport at age of 33
Report: LIV Golf identifies latest star name they hope to sign to breakaway tour
Kris Kim WITB 2024 (May)
Kris Kim what’s in the bag accurate as of the CJ Cup Byron Nelson. More photos from the event here....
Richy Werenski WITB 2024 (May)
Richy Werenski what’s in the bag accurate as of the CJ Cup Houston Open. Driver: Titleist TSR3 (10 degrees, D1...
Wesley Bryan WITB 2024 (May)
Wesley Bryan what’s in the bag accurate as of the CJ Cup Byron Nelson. Driver: Callaway Paradym Ai Smoke Triple...
Adam Scott WITB 2024 (May)
Adam Scott what’s in the bag accurate as of the 2024 CJ Cup Byron Nelson. Driver: TaylorMade Qi10 (10.5 degrees)...
-
19th Hole2 weeks agoJustin Thomas on the equipment choice of Scottie Scheffler that he thinks is ‘weird’
-
19th Hole2 weeks ago‘Absolutely crazy’ – Major champ lays into Patrick Cantlay over his decision on final hole of RBC Heritage
-
19th Hole3 weeks agoTwo star names reportedly blanked Jon Rahm all week at the Masters
-
19th Hole3 weeks agoReport: LIV Golf identifies latest star name they hope to sign to breakaway tour
-
19th Hole3 weeks agoNeal Shipley presser ends in awkward fashion after reporter claims Tiger handed him note on 8th fairway
-
19th Hole2 weeks agoBrandel Chamblee has ‘no doubt’ who started the McIlroy/LIV rumor and why
-
19th Hole1 week agoLET pro gives detailed financial breakdown of first week on tour…and the net result may shock you
-
Equipment2 weeks agoJason Day on his recent switch into Srixon ZX5 and ZX7 Mk II irons
Pingback: Bending Lie Angle With Cleveland RTX Wedges: Optimizing Your Golf Game – Graphics Cards Advisor
Lee
May 20, 2016 at 4:46 am
TOM –
“We’re working on that in terms of a face label with gradation lines printed on the label in degree increments so you could put the label on the face, hit the ball with the vertical ink line, see the transfer of the line to the label and then know the lie change based on which degree line on the label is parallel to the ink line.”
Just wondering if these are available to the market yet? I could use some for testing the lie of my new Wishon 771 irons! Hit the course today with some fairly inconsistent results, and felt I was getting a number of toe/ground hits in spite of my custom fitting by a top professional club-fitter. We did the final fitting off of a black board, not the method you describe here.
gerry caradonna
Mar 28, 2016 at 1:10 am
Anyone know of a good club fitter in palm beach FL. to get my loft and lie angle checked i went to Dicks sporting goods seems like they just dont have the time or dont care just try to rush you
Phil
Jul 13, 2015 at 11:10 am
I have the utmost respect for Tom and true gratitude for sharing his sage knowledge here. As a golfer who recently purchased some club building / adjusting equipment out of frustration with big box golf store workmanship (hard to blame them with the prices they offer & volume they must process daily) I was pleased to read this article. Since day one of becoming a golfer it was clear to me that hitting off a lie board was not a quality fit and this has always stuck in the back of my mind. The board sits above the stance for one, the golfer is adjusting the swing to ‘pick the ball’, they can easily hit it slightly fat deflect head first and slide that angle into the ball etc. etc. Hitting off grass into a marked ball is such a simple solution – the only way to go.
That said…. and I know the focus is on strictly on fitting here… The vast majority of golfers often have too upright a swing to begin with and end up on their toes displaying less than great leg/foot work – again, I know this is an issue the fitter is not responsible for. Still, having either standard or purposely flat lies teaches / requires more engagement of the lower body and foot work for these golfers to achieve a desired ball flight. It wouldn’t be outside the club builders / fitters arena to recommend, fit, build a couple of ‘practice clubs’ designed for this intent. It also wouldn’t be wrong if the fitter, seeing egregious ott etc. issues, offers the golfer the option to shave a degree with the understanding that golfer is taking lessons. Just my 2 cents, maybe I’m missing some points, regardless I’m really glad to learn about this fitting technique – Thanks!
Pingback: A Visual Effect of Lie Angle • Green Lantern Golf
Dave
Feb 28, 2015 at 7:44 pm
Tom,
This posting just came in to me and I can say it is timely. I fit a player today in the Weathers Facility here at IU using the sharpie method. He came to me asking about the differences between the lie board and the sharpie method. I had previously fit a pair of Vokey wedges to 2*upright which is what his swing calls for. After the fitting of all the clubs we found that most of the special order clubs were -1.5* from his needed specs. Bending them upright put his swing plane and impact right on spec for him. I suspect that I could have used the lie board and gotten to the same place with this player, but the line on the face of the irons and the change from perpendicular to the score lines, was easy enough for him to see and be convinced of the need for a change.
Mat
Feb 2, 2015 at 5:39 pm
Just a sidenote – some manufacturers go 0.5º between irons, and others 0.75º. Thus, one brand to another can cause a degree difference at the longest and shortest irons…
Dave S
Jan 29, 2015 at 1:28 pm
Edit: I know i can get them adjusted for pretty cheap at a local Golfsmith ($5 per club), but that would require me to know exactly how to bend them. I guess what I’m really asking is whether there’s a cheap way to have my dynamic lie tested?
Tom Wishon
Jan 29, 2015 at 4:01 pm
In all honesty, to get this done right so you have no doubt, you need to find a good, experienced clubmaker in your area who can both do the dynamic lie fitting test to tell him exactly how much to bend each iron so it is right for your swing, and then to do the bends as determined. You can try to ask the person at GS if they also can put you through a dynamic lie fitting test, if they know how to do that and could do that for you. I don’t know if retail stores like this can do that or would do it.
To find a good clubmaker, I would advise you head to the websites of the AGCP (Association of Golf Clubfitting Professionals) and the ICG (International Clubmakers’ Guild) and use their search tools to see if there is a clubmaker in reasonable proximity to your location. Google them and you’ll find their sites and on their sites you can find their locator search tool. The bending is only half of the task – you need someone competent in conducting a proper dynamic lie fitting test which tells how much each of your irons needs to be bent to fit you.
Nick
Jan 29, 2015 at 10:57 pm
Dave – Golfsmith does an above average job of training its fitters and techs. While a certified club builder is preferable, they should be able to do a good job for you.
I recommend printing out the specs of your irons and measuring the lie angle of the clubs you’re testing to get the best results. You need to establish a base line because clubs are not always built exactly to spec and/or lie angles can change a bit over time with use.
Dave S
Jan 29, 2015 at 11:30 am
Is there a way to get the lie adjusted on my irons for relatively cheap?
Erich
Jan 29, 2015 at 8:54 am
I swing a few degrees left so I need some toe down or I will pull the ball to the left. Your lie needs to start the ball on your target line, it doesn’t have to be perfect by robot standards. In the wedges if they are fit for my full swing then I will definitely pull my wedges since I play 2* upright. I must play flatter wedges so I don’t pull pitches and dig the heel in on short shots since my hands aren’t as high at impact. His information is great but nothing new.
Ryan
Jan 28, 2015 at 9:55 pm
Hi Tom,
I was just wondering why the lie angle should be the last thing checked in a fitting. I was taught that checking for lie angle was one of the first things that you do and I’ve done all my fittings that way. I have always used the dry erase marker method and I double check the angle at the end of each fitting. I made the assumption that once you found a lie angle that worked, you had a pretty good idea what lie angle to try on all the clubs.I was just hoping you could shed some light as to why you do it last. Thanks!
Tom Wishon
Jan 29, 2015 at 10:37 am
RYAN
We recommend doing the lie test and final lie adjustment after everything else is determined in the fitting because that way it takes everything into account that could affect the dynamic lie results in the lie fitting. Shaft droop – if you are being lie tested with the right fit club for you, it then takes the flex/bend profile, headweight effect on shaft bending, length effect on shaft bending all into account to reveal what your best lie will be for YOUR custom fit clubs. If you test with a club that has a different shaft flex/bend profile, length, headweight then the results you see could be different than the results you would see with the golfer’s final fit clubs. Do understand we are talking smaller details here but doing it this way just to be 100% sure the dynamic lie is as accurate as it can be for the golfer with his final fit in the clubs. Usually if you do your dynamic lie test with an iron that is of the same length and close enough in shaft and swingweight, that will typically be good enough.
Jeff
Jan 28, 2015 at 5:42 pm
So bored with this guy.
Golfrnut
Jan 28, 2015 at 6:24 pm
Guys around here are probably much more tired of the trolling comments from people like yourself than getting useful information from people like Tom. When you have something to bring to the table, then speak, otherwise you can just climb back down in the hole that you came from.
JC
Jan 28, 2015 at 6:28 pm
I know right. Darn him for taking time out of his day to write articles that could help people play better golf! SMH
Mark
Jan 28, 2015 at 4:45 pm
Is there a “rule of thumb” regarding how far the lie angle needs to be adjusted based on how far from vertical the line on the club face diverges? Is it a 1:1 relationship? (1 degree off from vertical means that you will have to adjust the club 1 degree).
Tom Wishon
Jan 29, 2015 at 10:45 am
MARK:
We’re working on that in terms of a face label with gradation lines printed on the label in degree increments so you could put the label on the face, hit the ball with the vertical ink line, see the transfer of the line to the label and then know the lie change based on which degree line on the label is parallel to the ink line. It’s simple geometry and really, one could do this with a protractor on the face to get pretty close because it is a 1:1 relationship in degrees off vertical on the face. But the labels will make it easier to do (as long as you get the label on the face correctly !!! – HA, there’s always a kicker, right?!!)
Be aware that by no means is this ink line method ours or anyone’s current discovery. It was first brought out by a very nice man and pioneer in repair and clubmaking by the name of Bud Blankenship for his former company in the 80s/90s called GolfTek in Idaho. Bud passed away unfortunately some years ago and never got the credit he deserved for some of the innovative things he contributed to the earlier days of clubfitting. He was a good friend of many in the industry from back then and it is right to give credit where credit is due on this.
Albatross85
Jan 28, 2015 at 3:47 pm
Dry erase marker works best and leaves nothing permanent
Nick
Jan 28, 2015 at 1:53 pm
I have been using the sharpie method in my fittings for several years. My only caution is that you must be extra careful to get the line on the ball as close to vertical as possible – otherwise your results will be inaccurate of inconsistent.
Lie angle does play a role in where we strike the ball on the face. As a general rule for irons, flattening the lie will move impact to the toe and bending the club more upright will move impact to the heel. In my experience, however, golfers have more success when the lie angle is adjusted to optimize turf interaction and other specs (shaft length, swing weight, stiffness, etc.) are adjusted to promote center face contact.
50jay
Jan 28, 2015 at 12:37 pm
Great Article!
I have a question for Tom:
My last lie fitting was done on a lie board and the result was 2*UP. I had them bent back then. Even though the lies are still 2*UP, my natural tendency would be to hit them on the toe side of the blade. When I had them checked again with a lie board it indicated me that I needed even more upright clubs.
Could it be that the lie board is giving me the wrong answer and that my lies are in fact too upright for me considering my clubs are at the proper length? I just want to understand the logic behind all of this.
Thank you Tom, your input is greatly appreciated on this site!
(I will perform the ink test as soon as possible.)
Kelly
Jan 28, 2015 at 7:55 pm
This is similar to my fittings. One of my swing flaws is that I will come in with high hands. In addition to high hands I have a swing speed on the higher side. Using a lie board I’be been fit or maroon dot Pings before. I’ve also been fit for a very tip stiff shaft with very upright clubs before. Truthfully I was never comfortable with these clubs from a looks and shaft flex standpoint. I decided that I would rather feel better about the other factors than be to concerned about what the lie board showed. I do plan on trying the ink line as a test.
Thanks to Tom for another informative article.
Tom Wishon
Jan 29, 2015 at 4:05 pm
50jay
What you report is precisely why the astute fitters are switching away from lie boards to use the ink line method. Somewhere on YOU TUBE is a slo mo video that captures exactly the weird anomaly that can cause a lie board test to result in an errant toe side impact on the sole. Fascinating video. It shows that right when the face hits the ball before the sole touches the board/ground, the reaction of the head right at impact is to cause the toe to tilt down more, which is what puts the toe end of the sole on the board. So my bet is that’s what’s happening with your more upright readings. You will know for sure if you do the ink line test.
Mike
Jan 28, 2015 at 12:24 pm
Great stuff Tom! Is there any correlation between heel/toe contact and lie angle? Thanks!
Tom Wishon
Jan 29, 2015 at 10:56 am
MIKE
Not 100% sure what you are asking for sure but it is true that if sole contact is on the heel or toe side, then for sure this is a basic indicator that whatever the lies of your irons are now is not what they need to be to allow the sole to travel level to the ground through impact. The old way of dynamic lie fitting involving the lie board would always teach that for each 1/4″ that the center of the sole impact mark with the lie board was off from the very center of the sole, that represented a 1* change. So for example if the average/consistent center of the sole rub mark was 1/1″ on the heel side of face center, that indicated a 2* flatter lie bend to the iron and vice versa for upright if the center of the sole rub mark was 1/2″ toward the toe side of sole center. Hope this hit what you were asking about.
Bb
Jan 28, 2015 at 11:52 am
Great article . Bad clubs , over priced
Clubs have no meat to them
Ted
Jan 28, 2015 at 11:43 am
I’ve did this type of lie angle testing after reading about Tom’s method. It works, its easy, and can be done for the price of a Sharpie.
Max
Jan 28, 2015 at 11:37 am
Tom posted this info in one of the forums a few years ago and I tried it and found my irons were too upright. So easy to test and I no longer hook my short irons now that the lies have been adjusted accordingly. Definitely try this if you hook your short irons or hit them left a lot.
Awedge333
Jan 28, 2015 at 5:54 pm
OK, my long clubs trend right – shout clubs trend left. 7-8 irons go straight…..
What does this mean???
Awedge333
Jan 28, 2015 at 5:56 pm
Sorry, short not shout….. that only comes after impact!
Tom Wishon
Jan 29, 2015 at 10:52 am
AWedge
This could be a situation in which you come into impact in a little different posture/spine angle/hands position with each of the different segments of your iron set. That’s pretty common because the lengths and total weights of our irons are all different from each other so with some golfers it very much can affect their position at impact which then affects the lie position of the clubhead through impact. How to resolve this is to do the dynamic lie test with each and every one of the clubs, and not to do it as most do which is to dyn lie test one iron only and then extrapolate all the other lies in 1* increments from that one test iron.
Clubfitters who do an every club lie test almost always find that when it is all done and they look at the actual final lie measurements for every iron, the lies won’t go in a nice 1* increment from club to club. Yes, this takes a lot longer to do. But in a case such as what you describe in your irons, it becomes the best way to try to resolve what you are seeing.
If after doing this you still find right/left results with different segments of the set then the place to investigate will be, 1) are the lengths absolutely right for you, your height/wrist to floor, your tempo/transition, ability, 2) are the swingweights and total weights of the irons right for you and your tempo/transition, sense of feel for your timing and rhythm in the swing.