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Report: Callaway to revive the ‘Apex’ name

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Members of our forums have been buzzing for weeks about the possibility of a Callaway forged iron that would bear the name “Apex,” a nod to the fan-favorite forged irons produced by the Ben Hogan golf brand, which Callaway purchased as a part of its acquisition of Top Flite Golf Co. in 2003.

Last week, we snapped photos of a prototype Callaway driver and two prototype irons at the Deutsche Bank Championship. According to a report by Golfweek’s James Achenbach, the larger iron model, which had yellow tape placed in the cavity to hide its logo, will be called “Apex.”

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Unlike the Ben Hogan Apex FTX irons released in 2004 (pictured left), the new Apex irons are a multi-material iron with a deep undercut. That makes them more similar to Callaway’s 2010 Diablo Forged iron (pictured right), which were forged from 1020 carbon steel but featured welded 455 carpenter steel faces to increase ball speed and forgiveness.

In 2012, Callaway sold the Ben Hogan brand to apparel company Perry Ellis Inc., which has been the official licensee of Callaway apparel since taking over for Ashworth in 2005. According to Achenbach, Callaway retained the rights to certain Ben Hogan-related trademarks, however, such as Apex and Edge.

Callaway has yet to release any details on the Apex irons, but we expect that they will begin to surface in the near future. You can see more photos of the Apex irons in the gallery below.

Click here to see what members are saying about the irons in the forums.

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29 Comments

29 Comments

  1. Sheen

    Jul 15, 2015 at 7:31 pm

    Interesting business & marketing case :
    APEX is symbolic product identifier of Ben Hogan ironw, which casts the image of best performance and high quality forged iron like top notch product. In this case, it only can do the role of premium line endorser of Callaway Iron for whom considering or might to buy Callaway irons by comparing with Taylormade, Cobra etc…but NOT Titlelist or Mizuno something high flying payer’s brand supplier.
    So it would be NOT best strategy for Callaway. Just could be GAP closing strategy.
    But on the other hand, if Ben Hogan Equipment used this name, and reintroduced powerful old hit products such as APEX pus, Edge pro and Redlines through re-trimming in modernized version, I could image very fantastic marketing case of ‘Oldest but Goodiest’.
    Any Opinions?

  2. Jeff

    Oct 8, 2013 at 11:56 am

    Just seen the X2 Hot clubs today and I like them, the orange paint scheme along with the hyper speed frame face should perform quite well on paper. Also seen the putters for 2014 as well, nice to to see callaway releasing the versa tank line, should be a good seller. Also nice to see new additions to the versa and white hot pro lines, with new putter shapes such as the jailbird and havoc putters.

  3. joe

    Sep 12, 2013 at 12:30 pm

    oh boo hoo. complain complain complain. the golf club could be named peewee herman. long as it performs, shouldnt matter. “the ben hogan” name. WHO CARES?!

  4. Go Low

    Sep 12, 2013 at 11:21 am

    Callaway is out of touch with reality. they have no appreciation for the workmanship that was put in the apex line by the Hogan company.
    Callaway does not realize that there is suck a srong market if they make something similar to the Ben Hogan 50th Anniversary Irons. It is a disgrace they butchered the Apex name….What a Shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • JHM

      Sep 13, 2013 at 3:28 pm

      If there is such a strong market, why did the Hogan brand fold. Seems to me Callaway is very in touch with what the public will purchase.

  5. Chris

    Sep 12, 2013 at 11:02 am

    Callaway has some interesting stuff in the pipeline…Apex and Apex Pro, X hot 2 irons, X hot 2 Driver with Aldila Atx blue and green in Pro model….milled metal x coming in February….new product looks pretty darn good to me, but I agree maybe the Apex name should have been on a blade.

  6. Kyle

    Sep 10, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    I can honestly say that each and every one of you will be proven wrong. The Apex irons to be released from Callaway are fantastic. Callaway just had their sales meeting regarding 2014 product. There will be two Apex irons released. Both of them forged from a newly refined forging process which allows Callaway to introduce a new, and much faster, face design. Testing down at ECPC have shown to produce enhanced spin robustness as well as extra distance. There will be an Apex Pro series which is not the one featured. I understand that many and most of the Apex fans are desiring a beautiful blade like construction in look as well as feel. The forged Pro model, which has not been released in images will satisfy those desires in my opinion. The Apex Pro will offer the look and feel that Hogan fans are looking for. From everything I have seen and heard, this is going to be a monster year for Callaway. At least they are not offering a gimmick “speed slot” in their irons. X 2 Hot irons and fairway woods will be the best performers. Let’s hope callaway can keep up in the marketing and social community to allow their superior performance to get noticed by consumers and customers alike. On top of the two apex lines, which are both forged, there will also be a revamp in the forged players clubs series as well. I do not believe any tour level drivers or irons were discussed in the meetings. The new X Hot line will offer an even faster face design!! The new process for constructing the face gives Callaway the ability to obtain higher CT testing. Whereas before, they could not reach any closer to the limit in fear of variances causing some product to be above the CT limit. The new process allows them to approach that limit safely and provide more distance. But even more importantly, the new face designs on fairway woods and also being introduced in the new hybrids and the concepts will also be introduced in the irons. The new design does increase ball speed but most importantly is much more consistent and much better performing on off center hits than previous models. MUCH!! more consistent. Anyways, I’ll get off this little rant of mine. Keep an eye out for 2014 Callaway product. There is much more to come than you may know. Wait for the actual release photos before making a judgement. They are beautiful!!

    • OhioGolfDude

      Sep 11, 2013 at 1:57 pm

      2013 was a big step forward in regards to design and performance of all Callaway products. I personally love the look of the unbadged iron in the pix, and if the non-pro version performs anything like the DF did, look out. Current trends seem to point that even hackers like the forged feel, but could use the extra forgiveness (even players like Stenson using the Legacy black). I’m currently gaming the Razr XF and these are some of the best feeling and performing irons I’ve used.

    • tom

      Sep 11, 2013 at 11:06 pm

      AMEN brother! At least hit the dang thing first before you start complaining, people.

  7. Matthew

    Sep 10, 2013 at 1:35 pm

    You guys do know that there were cavity versions of the Apex right? I don’t see what all of the fuss is about. There just isn’t enough of a market for Callaway to make two different verisons of blade irons.

  8. Andrew

    Sep 9, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Ely would not have approved…. hell, he would not have approved of much of what is coming out of the company these days…

  9. michael

    Sep 8, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    Callaway should be ashamed in using the apex name on any club that does not have the Hogan name attached to it. Those irons were some of the best made period. The pictures of the next generation is a disgrace to the name and to the great golfer Ben Hogan. I have often wondered why the irons have not been made they were again some of the highest quality irons made even better than the Titleist Irons that were made and I had a set in the 1980s and 1999’s.
    I hope that someone will make the irons again.

  10. Devin

    Sep 8, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    YUCK… Its probably going to come with the all too famous UNIFLEX shaft as well. Just as Callaway had made a turn for the better they try something like this. If Phil talks about what a dream his new “APEX” irons next year at TPC Scottsdale it wouldn’t even surprise me.

  11. jgpl001

    Sep 8, 2013 at 6:32 pm

    A real step backwards

    Callaway – let the Apex rest in peace

  12. MBAISLEY

    Sep 7, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    I agree 100% with the previous comments. I will be sorely disappointed if the Apex name winds up on this club. And that isn’t to say that I don’t like the looks of the new club….. I am actually quite interested to see more of it. (I can’t hit blades like I used to…. have to take advantage of some of these forged cavity irons that are out these days.)

    Mainly, I am just sad that the Hogan brand is gone from the equipment scene. I wish Callaway could’ve found a way to keep the Hogan line of forged irons alive. I guess it just wasn’t profitable to do it.

    I feel the same way about the unfortunate demise of the MacGregor brand.

    I played MacGregor forged irons for a long time, dozens of different models (V-foil, MT, Don White customs, 1991 VIPs, CB92 VIP Tours, JNPs, Muirfields, you name it), but I stopped buying MacGregor stuff when Golfsmith bought the brand. Golfsmith’s “VIP” forged iron isn’t a piece of junk, but it isn’t up to the standard that I have always associated with MacGregor forgings.

    Moreover, it’s been 4 or 5 years since MacGregor was sold to Golfsmith, and they’ve only offered a single forged iron…. the aforementioned VIP. How about some new stuff, Golfsmith? I’d be willing to give it a chance (but my hopes won’t be too high).

    Maybe if Callaway hits one out of the park with this new iron, I’ll forgive them for calling it Apex. But they’d better give it their very best effort!!

    • purkjason

      Sep 9, 2013 at 8:02 am

      I still have the Macgregor Muirfields and the Macgregor Jack Nicklaus Celebrity Iron Set. I agree that Macgregor is a timeless classic of forged beauty and quality. I still take these irons to the driving range when I need to improve my ball striking. I wish Jack Nicklaus could buy Macgregor and show the American People once again that Macgregor can rise to its past glory against all the OEM Marketing Scam giants.

  13. Roger

    Sep 7, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Could be time for an Apex appreciation thread
    from those of us who have bagged a set and appreciate a Classic.
    Clearly, the clubs pictured are a dissapointment.
    Callaway have produced some superb products lately!
    Plenty of time for Team Callaway to LISTEN to what WRX’ers
    feel is a Club Design that pays respect to Mr Hogan’s legacy.

  14. Jack

    Sep 7, 2013 at 9:23 am

    I guess we have a consensus. Apex should be on players irons. Maybe it doesn’t even matter cuz it won’t be Ben hogan brand anyway.

  15. Mike

    Sep 7, 2013 at 7:46 am

    Calling that pig “apex” is an abomination!

  16. BigBoy

    Sep 7, 2013 at 2:26 am

    Callaway engineers/designers wouldn’t have a clue about why Hogan called it the Apex nor do they have the ability to design such an iron…hack engineers=hack clubs.

  17. John

    Sep 6, 2013 at 11:35 pm

    Make a iron for strikers to give a nod to hogan…

  18. snowman

    Sep 6, 2013 at 11:20 pm

    No Way that shovel should called Apex. The Hawk would not be pleased.

  19. TravisLG

    Sep 6, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    I hope this is all a rumor…

  20. JD

    Sep 6, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    A bloody disgrace that the classic Apex name is tagged onto that monstrosity. Shame on you Callaway.

  21. Andrew

    Sep 6, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    Definitely NOT the right product to wear that badge…

  22. Matthew Bacon

    Sep 6, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    Diablo Forged look cheap where the Apex was classic

    • Jim Santelli

      Sep 11, 2013 at 1:24 pm

      Callaway destroyed the Ben Hogan name! Walmart in Texas is carrying Ben Hogan branded clothing and now this. Won’t even look at another Callaway product ever!

      • wes

        Sep 19, 2013 at 10:27 am

        Callaway doesn’t own the Ben Hogan name…

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Equipment

GolfWRX member testing: Reviewing Cleveland CBX 4 ZipCore wedges

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Our forum faithful are well acquainted with the incredible giveaways and review opportunities in the realm of threads and comments, but we want to ensure front-page readers are involved as well.

Check out what GolfWRXers are saying about Cleveland’s new CBX 4 ZipCore wedges after putting them through their paces.

We have five GolfWRX members testing Cleveland’s CBX 4 ZipCore wedges.

Cleveland on CBX 4 ZipCore wedges

“New CBX 4 ZipCore wedges bring premium versatility and elite forgiveness together in a highly refined, sharp-looking design that blends perfectly in the bag with modern cavity back or hollow iron sets. And now, these CBX series wedges get all of Cleveland Golf’s latest tour caliber technologies to create our finest cavity back wedge yet.”

How we choose our testers

GolfWRX staff evaluates each entry against the criteria laid out in the testing thread to determine the best fit for each specific product — For example, if a game-improvement iron is being tested, game-improvement iron-playing golfers will be considered.

Member testers

  • @mikes919
  • @ALTSean
  • @awtryau89
  • @vsabre
  • @rbilramz

Review themes

  • Forgiveness
  • Ease of use out of bunkers
  • Easy to play from a square position
  • Surprisingly compact given the amount of cavity technology
  • Impressive spin

Member review highlights

@mikes919

“Initial impression is that these wedges are very clean and high quality in appearance. They have a durable-looking satin finish, and the cavity back insert blends nicely with the steel; you barely notice that it’s an insert. Shafts and ferrules are pristine. The stock Lamkin Crossline grips are more rubbery than the tour velvets I’m used to, but the tread pattern gives a nice locked-in feel. The face milling is very pronounced, and the grooves feel ridiculously sharp. They are quite chunky from the back. The soles are big and wide, with a lot of leading and trailing edge relief. If you’re a digger with wedges, you are going to love these things. Comparing the soles and overall profile to my Vokeys, the difference is most obvious on the 54*. The CBX4 sole is much wider than anything I’ve played in this loft range before. While they’re both S-grinds, the CBX4 grind is much more pronounced on both the leading and trailing edge.”

“Flip the wedges over to the normal address position and it’s a totally different story. You would never know there’s so much sole and tech behind this club! While the topline is slightly thicker on the CBX4, I was pleasantly surprised that the appearance is much more “player” oriented than I would have thought. They don’t feel nearly as big here. The only thing I notice at address is that the CBX4 leading edge sits a little higher, because of that leading edge relief…”

“The other thing you’ll notice at address is the milling and groove pattern of the wedges. The HydraZip face technology is really cool to see and feel. Just rubbing your fingers across the face of the wedge, you know these are going to shred some ball covers! Zooming in on the grooves themselves is even more impressive, with a slightly different pattern between the low and high lofts:

…”My practice areas are sandy and the balls are hard as a rock, but I haven’t noticed any wear whatsoever on the wedge faces yet. Still spinning great, they really grab the ball.

…”These wedges like to be played square. Just line it up, focus on making reasonably clean contact, and you’ll be rewarded with a consistent flight and great spin.”

…”Today I put the Cleveland’s back in the bag for a rainy round. It started off drizzling and was just absolutely pouring by about the 5th hole. I was extremely impressed with the amount of spin I was able to generate with the CBX4’s. I found myself needing to adjust and fire at the pin much more than with my Vokeys; I was getting one hop stops, even in a heavy downpour.”

@ALTSean

“I got the wedges out for another round this morning. It’s been raining and warm here in NOVA so the conditions are on the softer side at the moment and the forgiveness of the soles shines in these kind of conditions. We don’t ever really get super firm or fast conditions so the extra bounce and size of the soles probably will work well here year round.”

@awtryau89

“As you can see, these wedges have some serious grinds. The pre-worn leading edge is on the 54 & 60. Even though these are larger than my Vokeys, they can be manipulated to hit any shot you like.”

“Looks are subjective but these look great. No real offset and not too rounded. They are on the larger side but unless you put them next to a smaller wedge, you’d never know they are a bit on the large side.”

“Feel is really good for cast and cavity back. They have a sharp click and aren’t muted but feel solid. The shafts are KBS Hi Rev 2.0. I play KBS C Taper Lite 110s in my irons so these mesh very well. Overall the pairing of the shafts and heads work very well. You won’t mistake them for soft forgings but overall they are softer feeling than my SM 9 KBS Tour 130 wedges.”

“Spin is exceptional. My Vokeys aren’t old but these definitely have much more bite than the SM9s. The hydro treatment is real. We played very soggy fairways and the spin I saw was crazy. One hop and stop pitches from short distances were the norm. It will be interesting to see what they offer when our course drys out.”

“Forgiveness is what these wedges are all about. I didn’t have any bad misses today that the wedges saved me strokes but I did notice some shots that weren’t perfect ended up being a good bit closer to pin high than expected.”

“Played again today and basically learned these wedges are a cheat code out of bunkers. So easy to hit any shot. I hit it close 2-3 times green side but my best shot may have been from a fairway bunker 127 out, up against a lip, with the 50 degree. Hit it to about 12 feet and promptly 3 putted. Oh well.”

“These wedges have stayed in my bag. Having played Vokeys for so long, I had to convince myself to commit for a while and put the ego aside. One big thing that has stood out to me is full shots and the better results I have seen there. These wedges offer so much more forgiveness that I have to be careful. I’ve had to adjust my yardages since they just play longer. I even took them to have the lofts checked because I thought they were strong and they were spot on so its just helping the ball go farther on those slight misses around the face.”

“I’ve stated they are just so easy out of the sand. I have hit some great shots and even holed out a few times from bunkers. I have to be careful on wet sand with the larger surface area on the soles but overall they just make the game easier.”

“Chipping is also so easy. I go against the grain so many times playing on Bermuda and the pre-worn leading edge just helps the wedge from sticking. I work very hard on shaft lean and keeping the hands ahead while chipping. The leading edge helps me play square face shots this way but you can also open them up.”

“I’ve had playing partners comment on my short game a few times the last few weeks and then ask to look at my wedges. Every one of them are surprised. I play to a 7 but one of my buddies who is a 1 has had some chipping issues lately and he started playing out of my bag one round. He plays ZipCores and probably won’t let his ego buy some but he had to admit he hit some of his best chips and shots with them. Great wedges for the common man.”

@vsabre

“Wedges arrived well packaged and perfect to the requested spec…super clean look and very appealing over the ball.”

“Performance – Range 3/4 Swings…Our practice range turf is slightly sandy from continuous repair with tight lies that are not forgiving for either chunky or blade swings. A really good wedge test and the CBX4s did not disappoint. For not having touched a club for two weeks the CBX4s were incredibly easy to hit. Like cheat code easy to hit as someone else mentioned.”

“Over to the practice green and hit a variety of shots with each wedge and honestly it’s nearly impossible to chunk one (which I can do from time to time). Soft feel coming off the club and I had forgotten what great wedges Cleveland makes, and of course, having a consistent fit spec through the entire iron set makes a huge difference. I will say we’ll see how they fare on tighter, firmer lies around the greens as we approach summer.”

“They will be staying in the bag and I’m sure I’ll be adding a 60 in the next few weeks with the same specs.”

@rbilramz

“My first impression upon receiving the CBX4 was how much cleaner they looked than the previous version. The lack of black plastic badging really makes them look more like players’ irons. I don’t have the CBX3 to compare them with, but I think the footprint is smaller than the previous generation.”

“The comparison to my RTX6 is interesting as well. The CBX4 clearly has a much larger and more rounded sole and bounce. However, from the address, the size difference is pretty minimal. They both frame the ball nicely without looking oversized. I can also manipulate CBX4 in my hand really easily; the sole doesn’t cause any issues with the turf.”

“I am lucky to have a simulator in my basement (Foresight GCQuad) and a putting/chipping green in my backyard. This is where my first round of testing occurred. I started at the putting green, rotating between each club. I do 90% of my chipping with my 54, but I hit a few with all of them. There was an immediate improvement with the CBX4, as poor turf interaction was not punished as much. My putting green isn’t very large (not enough space for any pitches), so I quickly made my way to the basement.”

“After getting warmed up, I compared each club against my current gamer with 12 full-swing shots. I would throw away the worst 2 and then average the remaining. The results here kind of surprised me. Despite identical specs, the CBX4 was consistently 2-3 yards (or more) further than the RTX6. I was expecting more forgiveness and consistency but not additional distance. I should add that I am not looking for any additional distance either, I like my current gapping. I am guessing the distance is due to increased forgiveness as I rarely hit the ball in the exact center of the face.”

“Spin numbers were basically identical. There wasn’t enough difference between the two for any conclusion to be made. The lowest ones were around 8,000rpm with the 48 degree and consistently around 10,000rpm with the 54 and 60 degrees. The UtilZip grooves and face milling really work great. I wouldn’t have any problem stopping and even backing shots up with these wedges.”

“The dispersion of the CBX4s was a little tighter, but not drastically. On good strikes, they were probably identical. The only noticeable difference came on really bad strikes, where the additional stability of the CBX4 became obvious. It won’t save you from a bad strike, but the CBX4 stayed a little straighter and went farther when I put a bad swing on them. I was slightly surprised by this, as I expected the difference to be larger. I guess the shorter distances of wedges make the forgiveness less obvious.”

“Distance/spin/dispersion aside, it would be impossible to ignore the difference in feel between the RTX6 and CBX4. On good strikes, the RTX6 simply feels amazing. It’s very solid while equally soft. I think that’s the feeling that people love about traditional wedges. I don’t have a problem with the feeling of the CBX4, but it’s just not as pure. It is clearly a cavity-back feeling. Feel isn’t overly important to me, so I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I just want to point it out.”

“My next test was taking them to the course and getting real-world impressions. Before playing, I put the wedges through a pretty decent warm-up that included full swing, pitches, chips, and a bunch of sand shots. This is where the CBX4 shined for me. Off of imperfect lies and out of the sand, the more forgiving sole was impossible to ignore. I headed to the Par 3 course at Green Valley Ranch to put them both into action. I didn’t keep score because I wanted to hit basically every shot with both clubs, and putting shouldn’t matter. The par 3 course at GVR is short, but it is NOT easy. By starting every hole with two balls, and then hitting every subsequent shot with each wedge, I was able to get a pretty good comparison between the two. In the end, the CBX4 simply performed better for me. And by the last few holes, I was noticeably more confident over the ball with the CBX4. That may be the largest benefit for me. I simply approached tough angles or bad lies with less apprehension. I was less afraid of hitting it fat or blading a chip.”

“Long story short, I may be the ideal player for the CBX4 wedges. The 54 and 60 degree clubs are securely in my bag. I am going to stick with the ZX5 A wedge over the CBX4 48, but that’s mostly due to my preference to have my gap wedge match my irons. I almost always use it for full-swing shots, so I like them to match. The cavity back design adds some forgiveness (and distance?) on full-swing shots, but the real difference for me comes around the green. The sole design is simply easier to work with. No question about it. I truly recommend the CBX4 to anyone who struggles with their short game. At least for me, my biggest inclination to use them historically has been based on pride. The improved looks make that easier to get past, but the improved playability makes it impossible to ignore. I am deeply on team CBX for now.”

Bonus comment

“We played this afternoon after getting about 4 inches of rain yesterday and late night. It was soggy. These wedges are forgiving and the tagline “chunk a little less” is real. Today was a good day to have more forgiving wedges.” – @awtryau89

More about GolfWRX member testing

Member testing gives our forum members the opportunity to put the latest golf equipment through the paces. In exchange for getting a product to test (and keep), forum members are expected to provide in-depth product feedback in the forums, along with photos, and engage with the questions of other forum members.

For brands, the GolfWRX member feedback and direct engagement is a vital window into the perceptions of avid golfers.

You can find additional testing opportunities in the GolfWRX forums.

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Equipment

Coolest thing for sale in the GolfWRX Classifieds (7/24/24): TP Mills Sycamore Proto putter

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At GolfWRX, we are a community of like-minded individuals that all experience and express our enjoyment of the game in many ways.

It’s that sense of community that drives day-to-day interactions in the forums on topics that range from best driver to what marker you use to mark your ball. It even allows us to share another thing we all love – buying and selling equipment.

Currently, in our GolfWRX buy/sell/trade (BST) forum, there is a listing for a TP Mills Sycamore Proto putter.

From the seller: (@mlowrimore): “TP Mills Sycamore Proto Putter

  • Oil Can finish 
  • Plumber’s neck, flange alignment line
  • German Stainless Steel
  • 355g, 34″ Length
  • I’m not sure the loft/lie but guessing 3/70 
  • Lamkin Deep Etched Black Grip
  • TP Mills “mini me” headcover 
  • True Temper shaft (no bands)
  • $850 Shipped”

To check out the full listing in our BST forum, head through the link: TP Mills Sycamore Proto putter

This is the most impressive current listing from the GolfWRX BST, and if you are curious about the rules to participate in the BST Forum you can check them out here: GolfWRX BST Rules

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Whats in the Bag

Chris Kirk WITB 2024 (July)

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  • Chris Kirk what’s in the bag accurate as of The Open Championship.

Driver: Callaway Paradym Ai-Smoke Triple Diamond (9 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura Ventus Blue 6 TX

3-wood: Callaway Paradym Ai-Smoke Max (15 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura Ventus Blue 8 TX

Irons: Callaway Apex Pro (3), Callaway Apex MB (5-9)
Shafts: Fujikura Ventus Blue (3), Project X LZ 125 6.5 (5-9)

Wedges: Callaway Opus (46-10S @47, 50-10S, 56-12S), Callaway Jaws Raw “S6” (58)
Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold S200

Putter: Odyssey Metal X Milled 9HT

Grips: Golf Pride Tour Velvet

Ball: Titleist Pro V1x

More photos of Chris Kirk’s WITB in the forums.

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