Opinion & Analysis
Wishon: What swing weight should your clubs be?
In a previous article, I discussed the fitting of the shaft weight and mentioned that a discussion about the weight of a golf club should not only include shaft weight, but swing weight as well.
The reason? These two elements are so interrelated, and so important when it comes to helping golfers find clubs that will give them their best tempo, timing, rhythm and of course, their best shots.
Before I dig in any further, let’s clarify two things:
- Shaft weight is by far the biggest contributor to the total weight of the club, which is simply a measurement of how heavy a club is.
- Swing weight is the measurement of the head-weight feel of a club. A club with a heavier swing weight will feel heavier to a golfer than one with a lighter swing weight, because its balance point is closer to the club head.
As with the fitting of the shaft weight, the club fitter also has to evaluate the golfer’s transition force, tempo, strength and any pre-determined feel preference the golfer may have when making the decision of what the swing weight of the clubs needs to be.
Both elements — shaft weight and swing weight — are influenced by the same golfer swing characteristics, which is why good club fitters will fit for both the shaft weight and the swing weight at the same time in the fitting process.
In the actual fitting process, however, the shaft weight comes first. This is because the test clubs required to focus on the fitting of shaft weight and swing weight together have to first be assembled with a shaft that the club fitter deems suitable from his analysis.
Shaft flex and bend-profile design is also important, and I’ll cover that in my next article. It’s why good club fitters think about weight and flex/bend profile simultaneously in the fitting process — they have to in order to come up with candidate shafts to use in the test club hitting sessions.
Once the club fitter determines a shaft with suitable weight and the best flex/bend profile characteristics for the golfer’s swing characteristics, the matter of fitting for the swing weight is done by having the golfer hit shots with a test club while adding lead tape to the club head. Shot shape, on-center hit results, and certainly the feedback from the golfer are then assessed.
Usually, it goes like this. As the golfer hits shots with the test clubs, the fitter adds lead tape to the clubs heads — about two swing weight points at a time — while observing the ball flight and on-center hit performance.
The fitter is also asking the golfer questions such as:
- How does your swing tempo/timing feel?
- Do you sense that you are fighting any tendency to be too quick with your tempo?
- Do you sense that you have to make more of an effort to swing the club?
- Do you feel the presence of the club head during the swing enough?
- Do you feel that the head feels a little too light, too heavy, about right?
The club fitter has to find that point at which the golfer begins to sense either a little better feel or begin to feel that his swing tempo and timing is better for the weight feel of the test clubs. That really is the key of a successful total weight/swing weight fitting — when the golfer does not have to consciously think about his swing tempo and timing.
It just happens.
And because the swing weight fitting process has to also include the flex/bend profile and weight of the shaft, the fitter knows that he will be switching between the different shafts he has evaluated as suitable for the golfer while he is also performing the “add a little weight at a time to the club head” evaluation to determine the best head weight feel for the golfer.
This is a perfect example of how experienced club fitters will “multi-task” to evaluate separate, but related specs in the fitting process, all at the same time. It’s why good club fitters are good and others are not when it comes to simultaneously evaluating each of these separate but very much related fitting elements.
The goal in the swing weight fitting is to get the golfer to a point where he reports that the club head is starting to feel a little bit too heavy, or the club is starting to require a little more effort to swing than the golfer would prefer. At that point, the club fitter removes a little of the head weight. Then a few more shots are hit to determine if the golfer still senses the head weight feel to be too much, or just right.
It is possible that the golfer never indicates a distinct, positive feel preference for the weight feel of the test club even when the head weight is brought back from a point of feeling too heavy for the golfer. When this happens, the good club fitters know that they need to test the golfer with a different weight shaft and go through the head weight fitting process all over again.
In my previous story, I offered some basic shaft weight fitting guidelines:
- Strong golfers/aggressive transitions/faster tempos = heavier shaft weights
- Weaker golfers/smooth transitions/smooth tempos = lighter shaft weights
These are guidelines that work for most golfers, but are not 100 percent set in stone for all golfers.
It is not uncommon for strong/aggressive transition/faster tempo golfers to end up being better fit into lighter shafts, but with a higher swing weight. While it certainly is less common for weaker/smooth transition/smooth tempo golfers to do better with a heavier shaft, it is not impossible.
This is why a very experienced club fitter can be worth his weight in gold. With experience come more situations in which the fitter encounters golfers who deviate from the guidelines.
Good clubfitters also realize that the interaction of shaft weight and swing weight is such that it is always possible to find strong/aggressive transition/faster tempo golfers who achieve their best tempo consistency with a lighter shaft, but with a higher swing weight to prevent the light shaft from making the clubs feel too light in some manner.
After all, there are a lot of tour players who play well with 60-to-65-gram shafts in their drivers and fairway woods. And a heavier head weight feel is how this can happen, even though logic may say that the player is too strong and forceful to be fit into such a lightweight shaft.
Sidebar: MOI Matching as an Alternative to Swing Weight Matched Clubs
Matching all clubs in a set to their MOI has become a viable alternative to swing weight matching for many golfers. MOI matching may also be thought of roughly as building the clubs in a set to progressively increase swing weights from long to short irons in the set.
Candidates for MOI matching over swing weight matching can be golfers who:
- Go in and out of consistency issues with the irons
- Suffer from occasional-to-frequent bouts of pulling short iron shots offline
- Sense less comfort and consistency with the short irons vs other irons in the set
For more information on MOI matching, visit: http://wishongolf.com/clubmakers/matching-golf-clubs-by-moi/
Sidebar: Don’t Get Trapped by a Specific Swing Weight
Remember, swing weight is NOT an actual measurement of weight as are grams, ounces or pounds. Swing weight is an arbitrary measurement of the relationship of weight in a golf club about the 14-inch fulcrum point on a swing weight scale.
When fitting swing weight, good club fitters really know that they are instead fitting for the head weight feel of the golf club. They are trying to find what head weight feel is going to bring about the best swing tempo and shot consistency for the golfer based on the length, shaft weight and grip weight of the clubs. Once that best head weight feel is found for the golfer, then the club fitter can perform a swing weight measurement to have as a guideline for the other clubs in the set, or as a baseline for taking the golfer into an MOI matched set.
In short, the head weight feel of D2 in a club that is 45 inches with a 60-gram shaft and a 50-gram grip is not going to be the same head weight feel as D2 in a club that is 43.5 inches with an 80-gram shaft and 40-gram grip. Thus, golfers should not get locked into a particular swing weight when changing length, shaft weight, or grip weight but rather go through a new investigation into what head weight will bring about the best tempo and timing in the swing.
Good club fitters know this, so once they choose the best length, shaft weight and grip preferred by the golfer, they fit for the best head weight feel and do not get locked into a specific swing weight.
Related
- What length should your clubs be?
- What lofts should your clubs be?
- Face angle is crucial for a proper fitting
- The best way to fit lie angle
- How to choose the right club head design
- Tom Wishon’s keys to set makeup
- Getting the right size grip, time after time
- What shaft weight should you play?
- What swing weight should your clubs be?
- What shaft flex should I use?
This story is part of a 10-part series from Tom Wishon on professional club fitting.
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19th Hole
Vincenzi’s LIV Golf Singapore betting preview: Course specialist ready to thrive once again
After another strong showing in Australia, LIV Golf will head to Sentosa Golf Club in Singapore looking to build off of what was undoubtedly their best event to date.
Sentosa Golf Club sits on the southern tip of Singapore and is one of the most beautiful courses in the world. The course is more than just incredible scenically; it was also rated 55th in Golf Digest’s top-100 courses in 2022-2023 and has been consistently regarded as one of the best courses in Asia. Prior to being part of the LIV rotation, the course hosted the Singapore Open every year since 2005.
Sentosa Golf Club is a par 71 measuring 7,406 yards. The course will require precise ball striking and some length off the tee. It’s possible to go low due to the pristine conditions, but there are also plenty of hazards and difficult spots on the course that can bring double bogey into play in a hurry. The Bermudagrass greens are perfectly manicured, and the course has spent millions on the sub-air system to keep the greens rolling fast. I spoke to Asian Tour player, Travis Smyth, who described the greens as “the best [he’s] ever played.”
Davis Love III, who competed in a Singapore Open in 2019, also gushed over the condition of the golf course.
“I love the greens. They are fabulous,” the 21-time PGA Tour winner said.
Love III also spoke about other aspects of the golf course.
“The greens are great; the fairways are perfect. It is a wonderful course, and it’s tricky off the tee.”
“It’s a long golf course, and you get some long iron shots. It takes somebody hitting it great to hit every green even though they are big.”
As Love III said, the course can be difficult off the tee due to the length of the course and the trouble looming around every corner. It will take a terrific ball striking week to win at Sentosa Golf Club.
In his pre-tournament press conference last season, Phil Mickelson echoed many of the same sentiments.
“To play Sentosa effectively, you’re going to have a lot of shots from 160 to 210, a lot of full 6-, 7-, 8-iron shots, and you need to hit those really well and you need to drive the ball well.”
Golfers who excel from tee to green and can dial in their longer irons will have a massive advantage this week.
Stat Leaders at LIV Golf Adelaide:
Fairways Hit
1.) Louis Oosthuizen
2.) Anirban Lahiri
3.) Jon Rahm
4.) Brendan Steele
5.) Cameron Tringale
Greens in Regulation
1.) Brooks Koepka
2.) Brendan Steele
3.) Dean Burmester
4.) Cameron Tringale
5.) Anirban Lahiri
Birdies Made
1.) Brendan Steele
2.) Dean Burmester
3.) Thomas Pieters
4.) Patrick Reed
5.) Carlos Ortiz
LIV Golf Individual Standings:
1.) Joaquin Niemann
2.) Jon Rahm
3.) Dean Burmester
4.) Louis Oosthuizen
5.) Abraham Ancer
LIV Golf Team Standings:
1.) Crushers
2.) Legion XIII
3.) Torque
4.) Stinger GC
5.) Ripper GC
LIV Golf Singapore Picks
Sergio Garcia +3000 (DraftKings)
Sergio Garcia is no stranger to Sentosa Golf Club. The Spaniard won the Singapore Open in 2018 by five strokes and lost in a playoff at LIV Singapore last year to scorching hot Talor Gooch. Looking at the course setup, it’s no surprise that a player like Sergio has played incredible golf here. He’s long off the tee and is one of the better long iron players in the world when he’s in form. Garcia is also statistically a much better putter on Bermudagrass than he is on other putting surfaces. He’s putt extremely well on Sentosa’s incredibly pure green complexes.
This season, Garcia has two runner-up finishes, both of them being playoff losses. Both El Camaleon and Doral are courses he’s had success at in his career. The Spaniard is a player who plays well at his tracks, and Sentosa is one of them. I believe Sergio will get himself in the mix this week. Hopefully the third time is a charm in Singapore.
Paul Casey +3300 (FanDuel)
Paul Casey is in the midst of one of his best seasons in the five years or so. The results recently have been up and down, but he’s shown that when he’s on a golf course that suits his game, he’s amongst the contenders.
This season, Casey has finishes of T5 (LIV Las Vegas), T2 (LIV Hong Kong), and a 6th at the Singapore Classic on the DP World Tour. At his best, the Englishman is one of the best long iron players in the world, which makes him a strong fit for Sentosa. Despite being in poor form last season, he was able to fire a Sunday 63, which shows he can low here at the course.
It’s been three years since Casey has won a tournament (Omega Dubai Desert Classic in 2021), but he’s been one of the top players on LIV this season and I think he can get it done at some point this season.
Mito Pereira +5000 (Bet365)
Since Mito Pereira’s unfortunate demise at the 2022 PGA Championship, he’s been extremely inconsistent. However, over the past few months, the Chilean has played well on the International Series as well as his most recent LIV start. Mito finished 8th at LIV Adelaide, which was his best LIV finish this season.
Last year, Pereira finished 5th at LIV Singapore, shooting fantastic rounds of 67-66-66. It makes sense why Mito would like Sentosa, as preeminent ball strikers tend to rise to the challenge of the golf course. He’s a great long iron player who is long and straight off the tee.
Mito has some experience playing in Asia and is one of the most talented players on LIV who’s yet to get in the winner’s circle. I have questions about whether or not he can come through once in contention, but if he gets there, I’m happy to roll the dice.
Andy Ogletree +15000 (DraftKings)
Andy Ogletree is a player I expected to have a strong 2024 but struggled early in his first full season on LIV. After failing to crack the top-25 in any LIV event this year, the former U.S. Amateur champion finally figured things out, finished in a tie for 3rd at LIV Adelaide.
Ogletree should be incredible comfortable playing in Singapore. He won the International Series Qatar last year and finished T3 at the International Series Singapore. The 26-year-old was arguably the best player on the Asian Tour in 2023 and has been fantastic in the continent over the past 18 months.
If Ogletree has indeed found form, he looks to be an amazing value at triple-digit odds.
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In Tampa, there is a golf course that boasts carts that do not work, a water range, and a group of players none of which have any chance to break 80. The course is overseen by a staff of crusty men who have succeeded at nothing in life but ending up at the worst-run course in America. However, this place is no failure. With several other local courses going out of business — and boasting outstanding greens — the place is booked full.
While I came for the great greens, I stayed to watch our resident instructor; a poor-tempered, method teacher who caters to the hopeless. At first, it was simply hilarious. However, after months of listening and watching, something clicked. I realized I had a front-row seat to the worst golf instructor in America.
Here are some of my key takeaways.
Method Teacher
It is widely accepted that there are three types of golf instructors: system teachers, non-system teachers, and method teachers. Method teachers prescribe the same antidote for each student based on a preamble which teachers can learn in a couple day certification.
Method teaching allows anyone to be certified. This process caters to the lowest caliber instructor, creating the illusion of competency. This empowers these underqualified instructors with the moniker of “certified” to prey on the innocent and uninformed.
The Cult of Stack and Jilt
The Stack and Tilt website proudly boasts, “A golfer swings his hands inward in the backswing as opposed to straight back to 1) create power, similar to a field goal kicker moving his leg in an arc and 2) to promote a swing that is in-to-out, which produces a draw (and eliminates a slice).”
Now, let me tell you something, there is this law of the universe which says “energy can either be created or destroyed,” so either these guys are defying physics or they have no idea what they are taking about. Further, the idea that the first move of the backswing determines impact is conjecture with a splash of utter fantasy.
These are the pontifications of a method — a set of prescriptions applied to everyone with the hope of some success through the placebo effect. It is one thing for a naive student to believe, for a golf instructor to drink and then dispel this Kool-Aid is malpractice.
Fooled by Randomness
In flipping a coin, or even a March Madness bet, there is a 50-50 chance of success. In golf, especially for new players, results are asymmetric. Simply put: Anything can happen. The problem is that when bad instructors work with high handicappers, each and every shot gets its own diagnosis and prescription. Soon the student is overwhelmed.
Now here’s the sinister thing: The overwhelming information is by design. In this case, the coach is not trying to make you better, they are trying to make you reliant on them for information. A quasi Stockholm syndrome of codependency.
Practice
One of the most important scientists of the 20th century was Ivan Pavlov. As you might recall, he found that animals, including humans, could be conditioned into biological responses. In golf, the idea of practice has made millions of hackers salivate that they are one lesson or practice session from “the secret.”
Sunk Cost
The idea for the worst golf instructor is to create control and dependency so that clients ignore the sunk cost of not getting better. Instead, they are held hostage by the idea that they are one lesson or tip away from unlocking their potential.
Cliches
Cliches have the effect of terminating thoughts. However, they are the weapon of choice for this instructor. Add some hyperbole and students actually get no information. As a result, these players couldn’t play golf. When they did, they had no real scheme. With no idea what they are doing, they would descend into a spiral of no idea what to do, bad results, lower confidence, and running back to the lesson tee from more cliches.
The fact is that poor instruction is about conditioning players to become reliant members of your cult. To take away autonomy. To use practice as a form of control. To sell more golf lessons not by making people better but through the guise that without the teacher, the student can never reach their full potential. All under the umbrella of being “certified” (in a 2-day course!) and a melee of cliches.
This of course is not just happening at my muni but is a systemic problem around the country and around the world, the consequences of which are giving people a great reason to stop playing golf. But hey, at least it’s selling a lot of golf balls…
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The PGA TOUR heads to New Orleans to play the 2023 Zurich Classic of New Orleans. In a welcome change from the usual stroke play, the Zurich Classic is a team event. On Thursday and Saturday, the teams play best ball, and on Friday and Sunday the teams play alternate shot.
TPC Louisiana is a par 72 that measures 7,425 yards. The course features some short par 4s and plenty of water and bunkers, which makes for a lot of exciting risk/reward scenarios for competitors. Pete Dye designed the course in 2004 specifically for the Zurich Classic, although the event didn’t make its debut until 2007 because of Hurricane Katrina.
Coming off of the Masters and a signature event in consecutive weeks, the field this week is a step down, and understandably so. Many of the world’s top players will be using this time to rest after a busy stretch.
However, there are some interesting teams this season with some stars making surprise appearances in the team event. Some notable teams include Patrick Cantlay and Xander Schauffele, Rory McIlroy and Shane Lowry, Collin Morikawa and Kurt Kitayama, Will Zalatoris and Sahith Theegala as well as a few Canadian teams, Nick Taylor and Adam Hadwin and Taylor Pendrith and Corey Conners.
Past Winners at TPC Louisiana
- 2023: Riley/Hardy (-30)
- 2022: Cantlay/Schauffele (-29)
- 2021: Leishman/Smith (-20)
- 2019: Palmer/Rahm (-26)
- 2018: Horschel/Piercy (-22)
- 2017: Blixt/Smith (-27)
2024 Zurich Classic of New Orleans Picks
Tom Hoge/Maverick McNealy +2500 (DraftKings)
Tom Hoge is coming off of a solid T18 finish at the RBC Heritage and finished T13 at last year’s Zurich Classic alongside Harris English.
This season, Hoge is having one of his best years on Tour in terms of Strokes Gained: Approach. In his last 24 rounds, the only player to top him on the category is Scottie Scheffler. Hoge has been solid on Pete Dye designs, ranking 28th in the field over his past 36 rounds.
McNealy is also having a solid season. He’s finished T6 at the Waste Management Phoenix Open and T9 at the PLAYERS Championship. He recently started working with world renowned swing coach, Butch Harmon, and its seemingly paid dividends in 2024.
Keith Mitchell/Joel Dahmen +4000 (DraftKings)
Keith Mitchell is having a fantastic season, finishing in the top-20 of five of his past seven starts on Tour. Most recently, Mitchell finished T14 at the Valero Texas Open and gained a whopping 6.0 strokes off the tee. He finished 6th at last year’s Zurich Classic.
Joel Dahmen is having a resurgent year and has been dialed in with his irons. He also has a T11 finish at the PLAYERS Championship at TPC Sawgrass which is another Pete Dye track. With Mitchell’s length and Dahmen’s ability to put it close with his short irons, the Mitchell/Dahmen combination will be dangerous this week.
Taylor Moore/Matt NeSmith +6500 (DraftKings)
Taylor Moore has quickly developed into one of the more consistent players on Tour. He’s finished in the top-20 in three of his past four starts, including a very impressive showing at The Masters, finishing T20. He’s also finished T4 at this event in consecutive seasons alongside Matt NeSmith.
NeSmith isn’t having a great 2024, but has seemed to elevate his game in this format. He finished T26 at Pete Dye’s TPC Sawgrass, which gives the 30-year-old something to build off of. NeSmith is also a great putter on Bermudagrass, which could help elevate Moore’s ball striking prowess.
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Grace
Aug 16, 2020 at 10:21 am
I have Rogue x irons and I had the swing weight checked and every club has a different swing weight. I purchased these crabs new. Is that correct?
Or should they be the same?
greg
Jul 14, 2016 at 3:25 am
great article, Mr. wishon. what is your take on bridging the gap between shaft weights throughout the set. for example most people have a 55 -65 g weight shaft in their drivers and around 100-110g shafts in irons.would golfers in general see an improvement in consistency if there was a smaller difference in shaft weight throughout the set. Sergio Garcia plays a 100+ g shaft in his driver and his irons are in 120g shafts. would I benefit if I went from my 120g iron shafts to 90g shafts so that its not way too different in weight in comparison to my 70g driver shaft ?
Joe
Jun 11, 2016 at 4:53 pm
Tom, Great article. I grew up with traditional loft and lie theories that have been blown out of the water and proportion for that matter. I recently had a set of mp 64’s built with KBS tour S. 2degrees flat. Played well with them but they always seemed a little long at STD length as I am only 5-7″. I found myself choking up on most all the irons, including the PW, so I had them cut from the butt end 1/2inch. Love the way they feel as I always wanted a little lighter club, similar to the Cobra cavity backs I played years ago with graphite shafts, but know that I lost significant swing weight. ( most likely D3 to C8 or C9. ) Played a few rounds and love the overall weight but am probably getting a little quick. Is lead tape the answer?
Devon
Mar 18, 2015 at 12:03 am
Hi Tom:
I recently bought a set of Cobra amp cell pro muscle back irons. The clubs are factory swing weight D3 3-9. I am a tall guy (6’5″) with pretty fast club head speed, 115+ for driver, and 4 handicap. I have the DG X100s in the irons, and they are 1/2″ extended. I also have big hands, and have the Lamkin Oversize R.E.L. 3GEN ACE grips, which weigh 78 grams, as opposed to the factory New Decade MC weighing 46.5 g. By referencing another thread on this site (see below), I figure the longer, heavier shafts and heavier grips mean my clubs are 9 SW points lighter than factory, or about a C4. I also see that better players with faster swings might want a heavier swing weight, which means my ideal may be heavier than D3. That same thread suggests I need 2 grams of club head weight for 1 SW point. The way I read this, I need to add at least 18 grams to club head to get back to D3, and more if I want heavier than D3. That seems like a lot of lead tape. Two questions: 1) am I right in my calculation that I would need to add 18 grams to get back to D3 and more for higher than D3; and 2) if I am correct, is it wise to get 18+ grams in the head by adding lead tape, or is there a better way?
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. Super helpful.
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/44071-swing-weight-factors-in-relation-to-parts/
Tom Wishon
Mar 18, 2015 at 10:23 am
Devon:
Once a golfer begins to use very heavy grips or a substantial counterweight in the butt end of the shaft, you pretty much have to throw swingweight measurements out the window and rely strictly on experimenting with the headweight until you reach a point that the head does not feel too light or too heavy during the swing. And once that point is found, then for future reference you can take a swt measurement. But that swt measurement will only be pertinent for your specific combination of length + shaft weight + grip weight.
When you use a very heavy grip, more times than not if you keep adding weight to the head to get the swingweight back up to what it was with a normal weight grip, the head weight feel will be too heavy. Hence the reason you have to go with a trial and experimentation process to add weight to the head until you get to a point the head weight feel is not too light or too heavy and not really aim at a specific swingweight measurement.
This by the way, is one of the ways that MOI Matching of clubs can be better than using swingweight . With a very heavy grip, the MOI is not affected all that much because the increase in grip weight is at a point on the club closest to the MOI’s axis of rotation for its measurement. The idea would be to install the heavy grip, then start experimenting with adding weight to the head to set the MOI at the level it was in the clubs before the heavy grip installation. And in this case, you would not be adding all that much weight to the head to get to that same MOI level as before.
Devon
Mar 18, 2015 at 9:52 pm
Tom, thank you so much for responding. I would not have guessed that getting a lot heavier in butt end wouldn’t necessarily mean you have to add a ton of weight to the club head. I will say that, having yet to experiment with adding weight, my clubs actually feel pretty good without any added weight on club head, which would confirm what you are saying in your reply. I’m glad I asked, because I was envisioning this hideous glob of lead tape pasted all over the back of my beautiful new blades, and a 7 iron that weighed as much as a brick, and I was thinking that can’t be right. I’m super excited to go experiment now. Who knows, maybe I’ll even end up with an MOI matched set….:)
Thanks again.
sam
Mar 6, 2015 at 8:26 pm
hey Tom, again a great article.
whats you thoughts on counterbalancing?
i have a tank cruiser putter and find the counter weight is great for my stroke so how about the rest of the set?
is it true with the weight more in the butt end it can help with swing plane? (slight over the top issues) “dropping” it inside a bit more and helping with a smoother transition?
is it worth putting a weight in the butt of the driver for a trial?
love to hear you thoughts and if you use this method yourself in certain builds?
Thanks Tom keep up the great work!!
Tom Wishon
Mar 16, 2015 at 10:33 am
SAM
Absolutely we and many clubfitters see a very high percentage of golfers improve with the PUTTER when using a heavier counterweight in the butt end of the shaft, one that is most typically 80g to 100g. The effect is to put more weight in the hands to calm down the stroke action more to result in better distance control, a reduction in push/pull tendency and more on center hits for better overall putting consistency. No question about this.
But with regard to use in full swing clubs, here is really is a trial and experimentation, hit or miss thing. No question some golfers have improved their clubhead speed and release with counterweights in the realm of 20 to 40g in the butt end of their full swing clubs. But we cannot really find a common thread in terms of what swing types are more prone to improvement with a counterweight in the full swing clubs. We’ve seen smooth swingers, slower speed players, aggressive swingers, higher speed players both improve and not improve with a counterweight.
So for now, until we or someone else finds that common thread to better pinpoint who will and won;t improve from a counterweight in the full swing clubs, it is a matter of try it and see what happens but don’t get bummed if nothing happens.
tlmck
Mar 6, 2015 at 5:46 am
Due to physical ailments, I have recently switched to ultralite graphite shafts in all my clubs with a heavier swingweight and am loving it. I take the club back slow with a slight pause at the top, and then just let gravity do the rest. Just effortless, pain free power. Even accounting for the stronger lofts on the new clubs, I have still picked up an honest 4 yards carry with the irons, and about 8 with the driver. My accuracy has not suffered either. I had actually tried swingweights down in the mid C range at first, but that seemed to required more effort to keep on target.
Tom Wishon
Mar 6, 2015 at 10:15 am
TIMCK
Absolutely a perfect example of how finding the right head feel does contribute to better swing timing and from it, the ability to maximize clubhead speed potential and shot consistency !! That’s precisely the value of working to find the best combination of total weight + headweight feel. Good for you that you went on this “search” and found YOUR best weight distribution in your clubs!
Joe Golfer
Mar 6, 2015 at 2:17 am
@Tom Wishon. I would love to see an article giving suggestions on what shaft profile is best for which type of golfer.
Nowadays we often hear about butt stiffness, middle of shaft stiffness, and tip stiffness (yes, I realize it can get much more complicated than just measuring at three areas, but I mention these three simply because shaft manufacturers often describe shafts in this manner rather that listing points all along the shaft).
I think most of us know that a stiff tip shaft will give a lower ball flight and is generally for the faster swinging player who does not need help getting the ball into the air.
I was wondering if you could offer some thoughts on the other two areas, the butt and middle profiles. For example, would a slower tempo player who still has decent swing speed like a soft butt, medium butt, or stiffer butt profile. Likewise for the mid point profile of the shaft.
Some discussion on fast tempo players vs slower tempo players on these two aspects (butt and mid stiffness) of shaft profile would be quite interesting. Or are these areas simply personal preference, trial and error?
I realize that not everybody fits into the same boat, and that there are exceptions to every rule, but it would still be interesting to hear your well-informed opinion on such matters as far as what the findings are in general for the majority of golfers.
Always appreciate your articles.
Tom Wishon
Mar 6, 2015 at 10:19 am
JoeG
The next article in this series is about fitting for flex and bend profile of the shaft. But since these articles have to be short, I won’t be able to cover as much as I did a bit back when I did a three part article all about shafts and shaft fitting and golfer swing characteristics to shaft design spec relationships. Go here – http://www.golfwrx.com/author/tomwishon/ Scroll way down and you will see Part 1, 2, and 3 of this series of shaft articles. The info there will answer all your questions.
Thanks for your interest for sure.
theo
Mar 5, 2015 at 10:12 pm
The “don’t get trapped” sidebar is a great read. I’ve been in this ‘ether of confusion’ much of my golf life and this paragraph provides some clarity. I used to wear the “I’m a D3 guy” badge thought about having it tattoo’ed on my arm. But then I’d feel someone else “heavy” irons and change my allegiance on the spot. And when I trie to replicate the swingweight mine felt “different”. And on and on. This is a good explanation. I wish someone would come up with a new standard besides swingweight because it’s caused me much grief. Thanks Thomas.
Tom Wishon
Mar 6, 2015 at 10:30 am
Theo
Well there is for sure another way although as yet I won’t call it a “standard” – but it sure would be a much better way for golfers to empirically know how to always end up with the same swing feel when they switch specs like length, shaft weight, grip weight, head weight. It’s in the other brief sidebar about MOI MATCHING as an alternative to swingweight matching of clubs. There’s a link in that sidebar to an article we put together to explain MOI matching, what it is, how it works, why it is potentially a better way to reference swing feel in clubs than swingweight. There are a number of more technically aware clubfitters who have been making all clubs they fit and build to be MOI matched for several years now.
Few have heard of it unless they hound this forum a lot – there have been a number of threads on WRX’s clubtech forum about MOI Matching. Few have heard of it as well because the OEMS don’t do it. Many think if the big companies don’t embrace something then it can’t be any good. There are several reasons they haven’t even though I can assure you they know of it and a couple have even commissioned a serious “look see” into it.
First, all the OEMs make their clubs to a series of standard specs so their clubs can be shipped to all the retail golf outlets to be sold off the rack. They do this because this is the only way to sell the highest volume of clubs. Hence all the clubs sold off the rack can only be made to one swingweight as a std spec. MOI matching has no advantage if you just pick one MOI and make all your clubs to that single MOI measurement. It has to be fit to each golfer just like swingweight should – based on the golfer’s strength + swing force + sense of feel for their swing timing and rhythm. So for an OEM to go with MOI matching, it would not do anything better for them since they have to make their clubs to one series of std specs.
Second reason the OEMs won’t do MOI matching is because it would take a HUGE educational effort on their part to convince the millions of golfers who are so used to swingweight matched clubs that it is better. It would only take ten golfers putting their MOI matched clubs on a swingweight scale and wondering negatively why all the clubs are different swingweights before an OEM would toss in the towel and go back to swingweight.
Thanks for your interest !
Hippocamp
Mar 5, 2015 at 1:36 pm
Thanks for a great article, Tom.
Any advice on how to deal with these new shafts with super high balance point? Just swapped a stock 65g 3W shaft for an Aldila Tour Blue 85g shaft with the idea of shortening the club by 1/2″ or so. Initially cut the Tour Blue to stock 43″ and was puzzled that the club actually had a lower SW with the shaft that weighed 20g more – at exactly the same length. Then it became clear that most of that extra weight was near the butt in the Tour Blue.
Anyway, made it clear that the distribution of weight in the shaft is more important than total weight for determining the SW of the club.
Curt
Mar 5, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Takes some cajones to call out one of the best in the Biz………
ken
Mar 5, 2015 at 12:40 pm
I don’t know a darned thing about swing weight. Nor do I care to know.
When I pick up the club at the gold shop and awing it few times, I immediately know whether I like the feel and weight of the club or not….
IN fact I would tell the club fitter “don’t bother telling me the swing weight. You’ll just confuse me.”
Jeff Borders
Mar 5, 2015 at 12:32 pm
But aren’t most club heads around 200-205g? I think the shaft weight is a lot more variable with today’s raw head weight. I could go with a shaft in the 50 gram range all the way up to 80+ grams.
Marni Ines
Mar 5, 2015 at 11:38 am
Have to disagree with the comment that shaft weight is, by far, the largest contributor to the total weight of the club, because, it is not. The head is BY FAR, the largest contributor to the total weight of the club.
Tom Wishon
Mar 5, 2015 at 1:00 pm
Marni
Let me explain why the shaft weight most definitely IS the biggest contributor to the total weight. Let’s talk driver just for sake of the explanation but it is true for all other clubs as well. Graphite shafts can be found for drivers that weigh as little as 39g up to 90g. We won’t include steel here because far less than 1% of all golfers play with steel shafts in the driver today. So that is a 51g range in the shaft weight.
The vast majority of grips for men exist between mid 40s and mid 50s in gram weight. Sure there are some exceptions to this but they are very seldom used for the vast majority of golfers. So grip weight exists in only a 10g or so high to low range.
The headweight is what is used to control the final swingweight of the club. Let’s say you build two drivers, one with a 39g shaft and one with a 90g shaft. To achieve a D1 swingweight for example at a length of 44″ with a normal 50g grip, with the 39g shaft the head has to weigh 213g and that club has a total weight of 302g. To achieve a D1 swingweight at 44″ with the same 50g grip with the 90g shaft, the head has to weigh 200g which brings this club to a total weight of 340g.
So for a 51g range in shaft weight, the head weight only ranges by 13g to achieve the same swingweight at the same length with the same grip. But the total weight is different by 38g, which is far more than the head weight range.
Hence shaft weight is the major determinant of the total weight of any club. Thanks for asking about this so I could have the chance to explain this more clearly.
NaborsX
Mar 6, 2015 at 12:49 pm
Fantastic info. Really appreciate you sharing the knowledge!
John P
Mar 6, 2015 at 4:51 pm
As a swinger of a set 770 CFE’s I love my Wishons. However, I think head weight is the largest contributed to TOTAL weight of a club. In the example the heads are 70.5 and 58.8 percent of the TOTAL club weight. Maybe the shaft is a big contributor to SWING WEIGHT because the weight difference is distributed along the length of the club. Love these articles, keep them coming!
PJM
Mar 8, 2015 at 5:18 am
Hi Tom. Thanks for the article and the explanation. I think your comment that the shaft is the major determinant of the total weight is clearer than your earlier comment that the shaft is the biggest contributor to the total weight. I agree with Marni’s interpretation that the heaviest component (i.e., the club head) is the biggest contributor to the total weight, but understand that you are saying that there is much greater variation in the weight of the shaft than other components. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.