Instruction
The truth about spin: How to spin it like the pros
One of the things I’m asked most often by my students is “How to get my shots to back up like the pros?”
When this question was posed to Sam Snead, he asked the man how far he hit his 5 iron. The man responded, about 150 yards or so. Snead said:
“Well, then what the hell do you want it to back up for?”
Be that as it may, backspin remains the Holy Grail for many amateur players. I’m always quick to point out to them that as much as anything, backspin comes first and foremost from clean, crisp, well-struck shots hit under optimum conditions. A dirty golf ball struck from most public golf course lies, hit from grooves that have not been cleaned for a week has no chance of spinning.
So if you want to give yourself a chance to hit shots that spin, make sure your grooves are fresh and that you clean them before you hit your shots. If you want a more complete answer that covers the ballistics of spin, read on.
OK, so you use clean grooves and still can’t spin the ball. First, you need to know that spin on a ball is created by the following four factors: friction, dynamic loft, contact point (on the face) and speed.
- Friction is the force between two surfaces when rubbing together. Two smooth surfaces create little friction, while two rough surfaces create a lot of friction. That is why golf clubs have grooves and golf balls have dimples — the grooves provide the necessary friction that is created as the golf ball slides up the club face. Any matter (dirt, water, grass) that comes between the golf ball and club reduces friction and therefore spin. This is why you will seldom see a professional spin a ball out of tall grass.
- Dynamic Loft is the actual loft of the club at impact, which is much less than what is measured on a loft/lie machine. The reduction in loft is due to the fact that in order for a golfer to strike down on the ball, he or she must create some forward shaft lean at impact, which reduces loft. A typical 6 iron with around 30 degrees of loft will have as little as 20 degrees of dynamic loft when hit by an elite level player, but I have seen readings as high as 40 degrees from some amateurs with poor impact positions.
- Contact point on the face: Even though there is less loft at the bottom of a club face and more loft at the top, a principle called vertical gear effect causes shots hit low on the face to have more spin than shots hit higher on the face. It seems counterintuitive, but think about how much more roll you get on tee shots you hit high on the face compared to the ones you hit low on the face. Now do you believe me?
- Speed: All things being equal, faster club head speed creates more spin and slower club head speeds create less spin.
So those are the ballistics of spin. But there’s another important aspect — trajectory. Let’s examine in detail what causes the ball to launch at different angles, which is known as vertical launch angle.
Attack Angle: In order to get the golf ball airborne with their woods, hybrids, irons and wedges, golfers must hit down on the ball to some degree. That’s why the PGA Tour average attack angle for a 6 iron is a negative 4 degrees, or 4-degrees down.
As I mentioned earlier, the shaft of the club must be leaning forward (toward the target) with the hands ahead of the club head to hit down on the ball. This action de-lofts the club. So a downward hit will always be achieved with a slightly de-lofted club.
The opposite is true for a driver, where many Tour players create a positive angle of attack, hitting up on the ball to launch the ball higher so they can carry it farther. If they couple their positive angle of attack with a contact point that is high on the face, they can reduce spin, which can create the optimal high-launch, low-spin combo that Bubba Watson has exploited to be one of the leaders in driving distance on the PGA Tour.
Note, however, that an upward angle of attack will not decrease spin — it takes a high contact point on the face to do that.
Spin Loft. This is a bit tricky, but follow along. Because different clubs have different lofts, they meet the ball with a variety of face angles. Spin loft is a calculation of these angles and is found using this equation: dynamic loft (actual loft at impact) – angle of attack = spin loft.
Now here is where it can get confusing: Spin loft does not mean spin rate per se. The rotations per minute (RPM) of a golf ball are the actual spin rate. Spin loft is one of the factors that causes spin rate, but it is not the only factor. A higher spin loft, however, will always increase spin and slow down down ball speed, and vice versa. If you look at the chart below, the gap between the red and blue lines is the spin loft. It is measured in degrees, not RPMs.
So let’s say a shot struck with a 6 iron has a dynamic loft at impact of 20 degrees and an attack angle of negative 4. The spin loft of that shot, 20 minus negative 4 (remember your double negatives?), is 24 degrees.
This is a very important point to understand because spin loft is also a matter of compression, which is a measure of how directly a ball has been struck. When the spin loft is low, the compression is high — the hit is more direct. When spin loft is high, the compression is low — the ball spins more and the ball speed is reduced. It is compressed less.
Look at the chart below: The narrower the gap between the red and blue lines, the more the golf ball is compressed and the farther it will go. In the example, there is no change in the gap, so hitting down did not spin the ball more; it simply launched it lower.
A zero spin loft would be the most compression we could have, but it’s not posssible because the golf ball would not have enough spin to stay in the air.
The latest scientific evidence shows that there is not an increase in spin per se when golfers hit down more on the golf ball. Here’s the reason — in order to hit down more a golfer has to lower the dynamic loft of the club, which causes the ball to be launched lower. There is no increase in spin loft or in actual spin rate.
So what does all this mean to the average golfer? Well let’s say, you’d like to learn how to hit a low wedge shot that comes to stop on a dime by the hole. Since you understand the dynamics of spin and launch, let’s go through the conditions that allow the low-flying, high-spinning wedge shot to happen:
To hit a low wedge shot, golfers need to get a low launch factor, which means they have to de-loft their wedge by getting their hands in front of the clubfacee. But you know that reducing loft, the biggest factor of spin, actually decreases the amount of spin, so the low-flying wedge shot seems like an anomaly, espcially when you add the fact that you can’t increase the speed on short shots because that would make the ball go too far.
So the magic of the high-spinning, low-flying shot is a low spin loft — remember the gap?
In order to have low spin loft, the angle of attack and loft have to be closer together. To make the spin loft as narrow as possible with a wedge, that wedge has to be delofted and have a very shallow angle of attack.
Think about it — if a golfer hits down too much, the spin loft “gap” would become wider and the compression would get lower. In those conditions, the golf ball does not “grip” the face as well; friction is reduced and spin goes down.
However, studies show that a very shallow attack angle (which is slightly downward with a wedge) and a defofted face produce the optimum friction, or grip of golf ball and club. The ball flies low, spins a lot and checks after two, sometimes three bounces. In short, you will be the envy of your foursome.
Here’s something else to consider: You should always keep not only your grooves clean, but the surface area between the grooves rough, a perfectly legal thing to do, because it to optimizes friction.
Final checklist for spin
- Clean your grooves and keep the surface area between the grooves roughened.
- Play a premium golf ball; one that allows for spin to happen.
- Do not expect spin off any lie where contact with the golf ball first is impossible; example — shot from the rough, especially ones that are into the grain, as they limit friction with the ball.
- While hitting down does not cause more spin, it is an essential element when hitting any ball on the ground.
- Work on keeping your hands ahead coming into impact (flipping the club ahead of your hands adds loft), but keep a very shallow angle. This is the best way to get a low-flying, high-spinning pitch when close to the green.
Finally, remember this: Backspin looks great, but if it is beyond your skill set, you can always come in a little higher, softer and even allow for ye olde bump and run when there is enough green to work with.
As always, feel free to send a swing video to my Facebook page and I will do my best to give you my feedback.
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While there are many golfers who barely know where the practice (I don’t like calling it a “driving”) range is located, there are many who find it a place of adventure, discovery and fun. I’m in the latter group, which could be accented by the fact that I make my living in this industry. But then, I’ve always been a “ball beater,” since I was a kid, but now I approach my practice sessions with more purpose and excitement. There’s no question that practice is the key to improvement in anything, so today’s topic is on making practice as much fun as playing.
As long as I can remember, I’ve loved the range, and always embrace the challenge of learning new ways to make a golf ball do what I would like it to do. So, today I’m sharing my “top 5” tips for making practice fun and productive.
- Have a mission/goal/objective. Whether it is a practice range session or practice time on the course, make sure you have a clearly defined objective…how else will you know how you’re doing? It might be to work on iron trajectory, or finding out why you’ve developed a push with your driver. Could be to learn how to hit a little softer lob shot or a knockdown pitch. But practice with a purpose …always.
- Don’t just “do”…observe. There are two elements of learning something new. The first is to figure out what it is you need to change. Then you work toward that solution. If your practice session is to address that push with the driver, hit a few shots to start out, and rather than try to fix it, make those first few your “lab rats”. Focus on what your swing is doing. Do you feel anything different? Check your alignment carefully, and your ball position. After each shot, step away and process what you think you felt during the swing.
- Make it real. To just rake ball after ball in front of you and pound away is marginally valuable at best. To make practice productive, step away from your hitting station after each shot, rake another ball to the hitting area, then approach the shot as if it was a real one on the course. Pick a target line from behind the ball, meticulously step into your set-up position, take your grip, process your one swing thought and hit it. Then evaluate how you did, based on the shot result and how it felt.
- Challenge yourself. One of my favorite on-course practice games is to spend a few minutes around each green after I’ve played the hole, tossing three balls into various positions in an area off the green. I don’t let myself go to the next tee until I put all three within three feet of the hole. If I don’t, I toss them to another area and do it again. You can do the same thing on the range. Define a challenge and a limited number of shots to achieve it.
- Don’t get in a groove. I was privileged enough to watch Harvey Penick give Tom Kite a golf lesson one day, and was struck by the fact that he would not let Tom hit more than five to six shots in a row with the same club. Tom would hit a few 5-irons, and Mr. Penick would say, “hit the 8”, then “hit the driver.” He changed it up so that Tom would not just find a groove. That paved the way for real learning, Mr. Penick told me.
My “bonus” tip addresses the difference between practicing on the course and keeping a real score. Don’t do both. A practice session is just that. On-course practice is hugely beneficial, and it’s best done by yourself, and at a casual pace. Playing three or four holes in an hour or so, taking time to hit real shots into and around the greens, will do more for your scoring skills than the same amount of range time.
So there you have my five practice tips. I’m sure I could come up with more, but then we always have more time, right?
More from the Wedge Guy
- The Wedge Guy: Anyone can be a better wedge player by doing these simple things
- Wedge Guy: There’s no logic to iron fitting
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As someone who has observed rank-and-file recreational golfers for most of my life – over 50 years of it, anyway – I have always been baffled by why so many mid- to high-handicap golfers throw away so many strokes in prime scoring range.
For this purpose, let’s define “prime scoring range” as the distance when you have something less than a full-swing wedge shot ahead of you. Depending on your strength profile, that could be as far as 70 to 80 yards or as close as 30 to 40 yards. But regardless of whether you are trying to break par or 100, your ability to get the ball on the green and close enough to the hole for a one-putt at least some of the time will likely be one of the biggest factors in determining your score for the day.
All too often, I observe golfers hit two or even three wedge shots from prime scoring range before they are on the green — and all too often I see short-range pitch shots leave the golfer with little to no chance of making the putt.
This makes no sense, as attaining a level of reasonable proficiency from short range is not a matter of strength profile at all. But it does take a commitment to learning how to make a repeating and reliable half-swing and doing that repeatedly and consistently absolutely requires you to learn the basic fundamentals of how the body has to move the club back and through the impact zone.
So, let’s get down to the basics to see if I can shed some light on these ultra-important scoring shots.
- Your grip has to be correct. For the club to move back and through correctly, your grip on the club simply must be fundamentally sound. The club is held primarily in the last three fingers of the upper hand, and the middle two fingers of the lower hand. Period. The lower hand has to be “passive” to the upper hand, or the mini-swing will become a quick jab at the ball. For any shot, but particularly these short ones, that sound grip is essential for the club to move through impact properly and repeatedly.
- Your posture has to be correct. This means your body is open to the target, feet closer together than even a three-quarter swing, and the ball positioned slightly back of center.
- Your weight should be distributed about 70 percent on your lead foot and stay there through the mini-swing.
- Your hands should be “low” in that your lead arm is hanging naturally from your shoulder, not extended out toward the ball and not too close to the body to allow a smooth turn away and through. Gripping down on the club is helpful, as it gets you “closer to your work.
- This shot is hit with a good rotation of the body, not a “flip” or “jab” with the hands. Controlling these shots with your body core rotation and leading the swing with your body core and lead side will almost ensure proper contact. To hit crisp pitch shots, the hands have to lead the clubhead through impact.
- A great drill for this is to grip your wedge with an alignment rod next to the grip and extending up past your torso. With this in place, you simply have to rotate your body core through the shot, as the rod will hit your lead side and prevent you from flipping the clubhead at the ball. It doesn’t take but a few practice swings with this drill to give you an “ah ha” moment about how wedge shots are played.
- And finally, understand that YOU CANNOT HIT UP ON A GOLF BALL. The ball is sitting on the ground so the clubhead has to be moving down and through impact. I think one of the best ways to think of this is to remember this club is “a wedge.” So, your simple objective is to wedge the club between the ball and the ground. The loft of the wedge WILL make the ball go up, and the bounce of the sole of the wedge will prevent the club from digging.
So, why is mastering the simple pitch shot so important? Because my bet is that if you count up the strokes in your last round of golf, you’ll likely see that you left several shots out there by…
- Either hitting another wedge shot or chip after having one of these mid-range pitch shots, or
- You did not get the mid-range shot close enough to even have a chance at a makeable putt.
If you will spend even an hour on the range or course with that alignment rod and follow these tips, your scoring average will improve a ton, and getting better with these pitch shots will improve your overall ball striking as well.
More from the Wedge Guy
- Wedge Guy: There’s no logic to iron fitting
- The Wedge Guy: Understanding iron designs, Part 1
- The Wedge Guy: Understanding iron designs, Part 2
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It is just crazy how golfers are literally beside themselves when they are placed in a properly aligned set up! They feel they can’t swing or function! We take a dive into why this is and it has to do with how the eyes are set up in the human skull!
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Dan H
Jan 12, 2017 at 9:18 pm
Here’s a pretty cool video with a study on it comparing a new wedge to a one year old wedge using Trackman numbers: https://youtu.be/PeOboLZcUuY
Terry
Jan 1, 2015 at 3:03 pm
I of course know how to clean iron groves but I don’t know how to rough up the surface area between the groves in order to create friction. Can you recommend a legal way to do that with a forged iron? Thanks.
Mark
Jan 16, 2015 at 12:08 pm
Dennis, just caught this article, very cool information but I am also wondering how to “keep the surface area between the grooves roughened”
Thanks
Slim
Jun 10, 2014 at 5:32 pm
How do you keep the surface area between the grooves rough? I’m picturing taking a metal file and “roughing up” the face, but doesn’t that goes against the Rules of Golf 4-1 b (altering equipment)? Am I missing something?
Aaron
Mar 23, 2014 at 9:21 am
Hi Dennis,
Can you please address these comments from above as I would like a little more explaination as well. Seems to be some contradicting statements that have some confused. So lower spin loft decreases spin but lower spin loft increases friction which would cause more spin, doesn’t this cancel each other out? Thanks Dennis for explaining this.
“A higher spin loft, however, will always increase spin”
“So the magic of the high-spinning, low-flying shot is a low spin loft – remember the gap?
In order to have low spin loft, the angle of attack and loft have to be closer together.”
confused…why would you want low spin loft for a high-spinning shot if the first comment is true??
Read more at http://www.golfwrx.com/76915/the-truth-about-spin-it-might-be-different-than-what-you-think/#39Q8X1X7HJHt8E7V.99
Mike
Jun 3, 2014 at 12:19 pm
the same I asked me too … how is the answer?
Marc
Jul 16, 2014 at 2:34 pm
I wonder why he hasn’t addressed this contradiction??
James
Mar 13, 2014 at 12:57 pm
Diminishing Returns. Just Remember 45 degrees and you might figure out why shallow with hands in front is important
John S
Mar 9, 2014 at 10:56 pm
As a club fitter and one who has done it for about 5 years, I need to chime in. This kind of information is cool, but it’s too much. Way too much. My average client can’t break 100 on a good day, he or she doesn’t need to see this stuff. A better article for the golfing community would be “how to get the ball airborne, nearly all the time.”
John Frizzell
Mar 1, 2014 at 10:27 pm
“make sure your grooves are fresh”
What do you mean fresh?
Dennis Clark
Mar 2, 2014 at 6:00 am
Clean and deep. Not worn down
Steven McLean
Jan 20, 2014 at 5:35 pm
Interesting stuff but I do not agree with grooves making a rough surface. An iron with no grooves would spin more assuming there was no water etc. so in good conditions the grooves do not increases spin. However I concede that any groove dirt protruding out of the grooves would reduce surface area contact with the ball. A good analogy is soft tyres in f1 which have no grooves whereas rain tyres have grooves. The ball is dimpled to reduce spin in flight. Dimples reduce surface area contact with the ball and hence reduce friction and the resulting spin. A ball with no dimples spins more.
Dennis Clark
Mar 2, 2014 at 6:14 am
The grooves on the face of a golf club serve two purposes. First, they provide just a bit of “bite” for the golf ball as it’s sliding up the face, helping it to spin more rapidly. Next, if grass is trapped between the ball and club at impact, the water in the grass will be squeezed out by the nearly 3,000 pounds of force generated by the average swing. Like the tread on an automobile tire, the grooves on the club face give the water somewhere to go so that the ball doesn’t skid up the face without spinning.
Dennis Clark
Mar 2, 2014 at 6:25 am
If you want to get deeper into the aerodynamics, there are two types of flow around an object: laminar and turbulent. Laminar flow has less drag, but it is also prone to a phenomenon called “separation.” Once separation of a laminar boundary layer occurs, drag rises dramatically because of eddies that form in the gap. Turbulent flow has more drag initially but also better adhesion, and therefore is less prone to separation. Therefore, if the shape of an object is such that separation occurs easily, it is better to turbulate the boundary layer (at the slight cost of increased drag) in order to increase adhesion and reduce eddies (which means a significant reduction in drag). Dimples on golf balls turbulate the boundary layer.
Ben
Sep 4, 2014 at 9:04 am
Agreed! If a golf ball wasn’t dimpled, it would be a knuckle ball!
Rob
Dec 2, 2013 at 6:47 am
I believe it was actually the irritable Ben Hogan playing in a pro am with a overly complimentary amateur partner who said that when asked how to spin/stop his 7 iron.
Dennis Clark
Mar 2, 2014 at 6:18 am
I played with Snead in an senior event in Atlantic City in 1988. He told us the story.
Azman Long Hamid
Nov 11, 2013 at 12:35 am
Not sure all the jargon, but to have a low spinning into the green? Use a urethane ball, take one extra club hit it 3 quarter, with a faster swing speed. So far that is what I am doing to get the ball back.
Eric Nordal
Apr 1, 2013 at 9:22 pm
Backspin is so overrated. Yes it looks cool but unless you know how to use it to your advantage it is a hindrance for most amateurs. It all comes down to distance control and consistency with your irons to make it useful. Most amateurs aren’t consistent and even if they do hit the ball well enough to generate backspin they aren’t consistent enough with their club yardages to use it to their advantage. 99% of amateurs don’t take enough club in the first place when hitting approach shots. So even if they do strike it well, chances are it’s not enough club and the backspin is just going to make it a longer putt for them. Now a PGA pro on the other hand knows his yardages and knows how far he can hit each club. Let’s say he’s staring at a 140 yard shot to the pin. He knows he can hit his 9 iron 150 yards so he’ll take his 9 knowing he’ll probably land it past the hole and spin it back 5-8 yards to leave him a 3-5 footer.
I can generate backspin and for the most part I hate it. I’ve spun the ball off the front of greens, into water, sand traps, and other hazards. There have also been times where I’ve tried to play shots to land soft and release but check up because of spin leaving me with long putts. My advice, and this is just my 2 cents, worry about hitting it straight and hitting the green. If you can hit 14 out of 18 greens in regulation, then worry about generating backspin.
Mateo
Mar 31, 2013 at 2:39 am
This article is so pointless………… if you want to spin it like a pro…………… BE A PRO.
Which means practice, practice, practice.
Because you have figured out a way to afford to practice and play ALL the time without a full time job or any job at all whether it’s through a sponsor or mommy and daddy picking up the tab (which is how a majority of them do it).
All of these pros use different methods to put spin on the ball.
Whether it’s steep or shallow, inside or outside, hands in front or behind, clean or off the toe, it doesn’t matter. They figure out how to do it because they are pros and have had time to do it.
If you are an am who wants to spin it like the pros…………. stop reading this stuff and go to the nearest chipping green and figure out how YOU can spin it the most with your technique and ability with the time you have (without losing your job).
If you want to spin it like the pros….. ignore this article and go practice. And before you practice, make sure you have the correct loft, lie, and bounce on your wedges.
“How to spin it like the pros”. What a joke.
Pablo
May 30, 2013 at 12:19 am
When pros go out and practice tons and tons as you mentioned, what do you think they practice exactly? They practice proper technique and optimizing their games. Each pro might have a unique swing and technique, but they work on making the launch numbers better for their games so they can spin the ball as much as they need to. Pros also have the luxury of not just practicing alone but with their coaches and company reps who are their to analyze the numbers and help them hit their ideal launch conditions. For amateurs who can’t practice nearly as much but try to make time for it (tough to do when you have an actual job that’s not pro golf), the key is practicing the right technique. Instruction like this from magazines, TV, or online helps many players, but the best thing is getting a lesson from a PGA teaching pro to work on a golfer’s unique drills to improve their performance.
In short, an amateur blindly hitting balls on a range or a chipping green like you seem to be suggesting won’t help most amateurs. While practice is important, the best way is to get lessons from an instructor. If not that, teaching tips from magazines, websites like this, or Golf Channel are the next best thing.
SBoss
Mar 3, 2014 at 11:21 pm
Actually, Mateo, your comment is useless. Many people here are interested in improving their golf and we’re willing to fit practice in around our schedules. Anything that I can read (like this piece) that adds information to my knowledge base is welcome.
You don’t have to be a “pro” to appreciate the sport and want to get better…and you don’t need the time investment like a professional to be a really good golfer.
There are times that you might not enjoy an article because it doesn’t interest you…there are other people that might enjoy it a lot. I’d also ask you to ponder the fact that some people don’t work the same hours or schedule as yourself…or, maybe their retired and have all the time in the world. I know it’s crazy…but there are other people and circumstances outside of your own. Try stepping out of your “personal box” and appreciate the time that it took to write the piece…and that other people might actually enjoy it.
Jack
Mar 5, 2014 at 1:12 am
LOL. I think he just might be one of those guys who practice all the time and don’t know why he’s not getting better. He just doesn’t have the time to practice even more. Either that or he’s a genius who just knows what to do. The rest of us mortals need some help to understand things.
Geno
May 19, 2014 at 10:17 pm
totally agree with sboss his hate comment is so ignorant it kills me.
cwdlaw223
Mar 29, 2013 at 6:22 pm
Dennis –
Thanks. Here’s a tough one for you (at least for me), how about a low launch – low spin shot with a PW, 9 or 8 iron around the green? I want my bump and run shots to run and hate it when there is a little check. Easy to do with a putter because the dynamic loft would be so low and not cause the noticeable “check” (I presume increased spin) when I try a bump and run with a PW, 9 or 8 iron there’s inevitably a check. Maybe the check is unavoidable because at a certain point there has to be some dynamic loft to get the ball on the green and rolling. Sometimes the bump and run shot can’t be hit with a 7-4 iron because there isn’t enough room for the ball to run out.
alexis
Mar 30, 2013 at 3:44 am
try hitting it on the toe. that would reduce the risk of your bump and runs checking up as you are purposely hitting it outside the sweet spot. remember Clark mentioned the importance of a clean and crisp strike of the ball.
Dennis Clark
Mar 30, 2013 at 12:25 pm
Here’s a shot to try….when you hit a chip that has to release try a little hook rollover release at the bottom. This shot was taught to me by a great player who was the head pro at Winged Foot for many years. It works really well when u get used to it!
jason
Jun 28, 2014 at 11:25 pm
Everyone who can spin the ball back (who I have talked to), actually don’t like it. All of them just want the ball to land and sit, so they dont have to worry about it spinning back off the green. If these players can’t control how much they spin the ball, I would assume that we shouldnt be able to either. If you’re going for a bump and run, with minimal spin, I would assume your best bet would be to take a lower lofted club and hitting a chip. Also I don’t really think you should be hitting a bump and run with a 7-4 iron, I would consider those shots more like small punch shots. And punch shots will always role out. Hopefully that makes sense.
cwdlaw223
Mar 29, 2013 at 12:29 pm
Dennis –
Doesn’t the picture of the “spin loft answer” have the low launch, high spin shot occur with the golfer hitting down (instead of a more shallow impact position)? That picture is causing some confusion for me. I agree with you, but the information in the spin loft answers indicates that hitting down will have a lower launch and the article was about a low launch, high spin shot.
Dennis Clark
Mar 29, 2013 at 3:42 pm
Yes I agree. That pic does illustrate a steeper angle than I am suggesting one play the low spinner with. Good point. I may remove that to avoid confusion.
Gürhan Kaya
Mar 28, 2013 at 12:14 pm
Soon everybody will understand the secrets of how to hit the ball properly, :/
Steve Pratt
Mar 28, 2013 at 2:11 am
Hi Dennis,
Respectfully, I don’t believe it is possible to have a shallow angle of attack and deloft. One would deloft the club by leaning the shaft forward at impact, that necessarily steepens the angle of attack. Sure you can have a shallow divot with a steep angle of attack if you bottom out at turf level.
A shallow AoA, say -2 on a SW would always result in a relatively high shot, not low.
Some of your statements confuse me…low spin loft for high spin? What is a narrow D plane? Could you clarify further?
Of course Bob, above, is incorrect, that all clubs have vertical gear effect. I’ll be happily corrected if I’m wrong here.
Finally, spin loft has absolutely nothing to do with AoA. Fredrik Tuxen has written that spin loft is more or less constant in any individual club. Dynamic loft changes with AoA, not spin loft.
Dennis Clark
Mar 28, 2013 at 8:51 pm
Steve: Also respectfully, you can deloft the club and shallow the angle. Try putting your hands well in front of the golf ball, and swing UP at it. That move is very doable and what may elite level players work on. Andrew Rice has done some very extensive studies on this and even has a drill on his site you can work on. Spin loft is defined and arrived at by the formula, Dynamic loft MINUS the attack angle. Yes steeper AA will lower dynamic loft, but you will get a different spin loft reading when the AA changes. Dynamic loft 20, AA -5. spin loft 25. Dynamic loft 20, AA +5 Spin loft: 15 My top players get their driver in the 10-11 range on Trackman spin loft. Thx as always for your comments an interest. DC
Lee
Mar 27, 2013 at 9:53 pm
Thanks. I’ll give it a shot!
Dennis Clark
Mar 27, 2013 at 10:32 am
Low spin lift is greater compression, more narrow D plane and higher friction when played midsole de-lofted and shallow. A FRICTION spinner is a thing of beauty.
Lee
Mar 27, 2013 at 8:49 am
“A higher spin loft, however, will always increase spin”
“So the magic of the high-spinning, low-flying shot is a low spin loft – remember the gap?
In order to have low spin loft, the angle of attack and loft have to be closer together.”
confused…why would you want low spin loft for a high-spinning shot if the first comment is true??
Bob Frost
Mar 27, 2013 at 8:37 am
Hi Guys,
What a load of codswallop or BS you guys over the pond like to say, it just goes to show how missleading even well respected pros know about golf clubs and how they work. Three things only for backspin, loft, swingspeed and angle of attack, just some of the above remarks which are wrong, firstly the golf ball does not run up the clubface, irons do not have vertical gear effect the last time I measured my irons they had the same loft at the bottom of the face as the top! It is impossible to have your hands in front of the ball unless your trying to break your wrists see your own picture! The reason there was a groove change in the law was to stop pros getting backspin from the rough, there still getting it!. The above article is nothing more than if you do not know baffle em with BS. For the correct info on how back spin works and can be applied read Tom Wishon, a proper expert in club design.
Bob F
Clubmaker
Zak Kozuchowski
Mar 27, 2013 at 9:42 am
Bob,
My experience, which includes in-depth conversations with top club fitters and OEM engineers (including Tom Wishon) tells me that you’re very, very wrong.
You’re also being extremely rude to one of our most respected writers, who provided me with the list of his sources for this story before publication so I could check everything out.
You think it’s impossible to have your hands in front of the ball at impact? That’s a picture of PGA Tour winner Kevin Streelman, who has very healthy wrists.
It’s fine to disagree, but you’ve crossed the line into rudeness. And you’re needlessly confusing readers who actually want to learn how they can improve their games.
– Zak
Steve
Mar 27, 2013 at 5:30 pm
Agree with Zak. “Cannot have hands ahead of ball”?? Gimme a break – I’m just an amateur 10 even I know better than that.
Listen, THANKS!! to Dennis for the insight and great presentation! It has helped me clear up some mysteries and find my swing again after a log winter of struggling with my approaches! Keep up the great work!
John Frizzell
Mar 1, 2014 at 10:49 pm
Tom Wishon certainly know his stuff, what is he the only “proper expert.
Hardly. Every OEM has guys just as qualified at club design, now do I believe the OEM advertisment hogwash, certainly not.
Adrian
Mar 31, 2014 at 10:06 am
The club face lays back when struck high on the face and rolls downward when struck low on the face so that will either add or take away dynamic loft of the club at impact. Your irons don’t have bulge and roll on them like your driver does but they still experience gear effect.
geohogan
Jul 8, 2020 at 8:39 pm
So called gear effect is a result of using shafts with too soft tip.
If the tip is stiff (steel or graphite) there is no so called, gear effect.
Ken
Mar 22, 2022 at 8:52 pm
Bob. Do everyone a favor and and go play in traffic
Dennis Clark
Mar 27, 2013 at 7:59 am
Guys, thx for the comments and feedback. A couple thing: Shallow is an attack angle decription; de-lofted is a loft description. You can absolutely have a wide, shallow angle with the hand ahead of the golf ball. It’s why many great wedge players “pick” the ball clean, take very shallow divits when hitting their spinners. Andrew Rice, fine teaching professional, has written extensively and researched this topic, read his take on it too. Its also why I said this shot is one known to very few but is clearly what they do. Secondly, spin loft is does control spin but it is a function of the differential of attack angle and dynamic loft. It IS the D plane and the measure of compression on the golf ball. Hitting down more increases attach angle but also lowers vertical lauch angle. No increase in spin. Remember the friction part, high friction spin is that third hop one we see among the elite players.
derek
Mar 27, 2013 at 4:04 am
So what does all this mean to the average golfer?
play a prov 1 and sooner or later you’ll have to play it 4 yards further
Jerry Crowell, PGA
Mar 27, 2013 at 12:00 am
De-lofted club with a shallow angle of attack? Don’t follow that one. Where you put dynamic loft, you shoulda put spin loft (in your bullet points).
Steve Pratt
Mar 26, 2013 at 11:44 pm
Dennis, I’m having a hard time understanding this.
Dynamic loft doesn’t control spin – spin loft does, according to F. Tuxen. Along with speed, of course. Is this what you were saying?
And please explain how you can get a delofted club with a shallow angle of attack? Leaning the shaft forward gives you a steeper AoA, as I understand it.
So if I wanted a low skipper, I would open the face for more spin loft, swing more down and left for the low launch angle and correct D plane, and because I have more spin loft, I need more speed to get to the target, increasing the spin more.
Is this a different technique than the way you explained it above?
Ahaze
Mar 26, 2013 at 9:51 pm
Controlling the spin just becomes how hard you hit the shot.
Ahaze
Mar 26, 2013 at 9:45 pm
You have to compress the ball into the turf. If you want to stop a 6 iron on the green you need club head speed and the proper angle of attack. Simple, nothing else.
Desmond
Apr 6, 2013 at 7:45 pm
The ball does not go into the turf.
John Frizzell
Mar 1, 2014 at 10:29 pm
yep it sure doesn’t
Matt Newby, PGA
Mar 26, 2013 at 8:44 pm
Dennis,
I have a question for you on this just to make sure I am understanding your terminology correctly. Can you please e-mail me at [email protected] when you get a chance?
Thanks,
Matt Newby PGA
yo!
Mar 26, 2013 at 6:09 pm
When I was learning to play golf, I always wanted to spin the ball back on my approach shots. When I started doing it, it became frustrating because it was unpredictable and sometimes rolled off of the green. I would rather have a shot that stops or move very little, forward or backward, after it hits the green.
t
Mar 26, 2013 at 5:14 pm
back spin is largely overrated. i would rather my ball (as should other amateurs) hit, bounce and roll a couple feet.
John Frizzell
Mar 1, 2014 at 10:28 pm
All irons shots have backspin, some more than others.
Jason Burge
Mar 5, 2014 at 5:43 pm
I’m with you. Two feet in either direction is perfect.