Opinion & Analysis

What really determines feel in an iron?

Published

9 years ago

Jul 1, 2015

This story was selected as one of the 15 best GolfWRX stories of 2015!

How a golf club feels is usually a very important attribute for golfers, especially better players, and there are clearly very big differences in feel across clubs. However, there are a lot of misconceptions about what really causes a particular feel.

It is important to note that the golfer defines what feel means to him or her and whether a club feels “good” or “bad.” The following is my attempt to explain a bit more about where feel comes from.

What are we actually feeling?

It’s probably best to start with a quick summary of what you feel when you take a swing. It’s basically a combination of two things: the sound created by high-frequency vibrations in the club head due to impact with the ball — typically a few thousand Hertz — and the vibrations that travel up the shaft, through the grip and into your hands. Those vibrations are much lower, typically tens to hundreds of Hertz.

Much of the sensation that is attributed to feel is actually the sound of the head. Any club has a distinct natural frequency and therefore a sound “signature.” Furthermore, off-center hits change that sound slightly and give a player the ability to discern the mishit, or what you would call feedback. We ran a test about 10 years ago that involved players hitting shots while wearing noise-cancelling headphones, and it became very difficult for them to distinguish any differences in feel from shot to shot or club to club.

The vibrations felt in the hands after impact are still an area of active research for us, but since they come up the shaft and through the grip they are actually more a function of those two components than the head. We still offer the Cushin insert, which dampens vibrations in the shaft after impact and helps a lot of golfers for whom those vibrations can cause pain and injuries. Also contributing to feel is the force felt in the hands during the swing and this is basically a function of the club weight and flexibility of the shaft.

These days in our player tests we will ask for feedback on how a club feels with regard to the weight and balance as they pick it up, how it feels during the swing, and also how it feels and sounds at impact. They can all be quite different.

What can be difficult for a club manufacturer is the range of sensations people want to feel. Some players want a lot of feedback to let them know they didn’t catch a shot in the middle of the face. Some don’t. Some like a powerful sound, others like something a bit more muted.

Do forged clubs really feel better?

There are some significant differences in sound and feel between most forged blade irons and most cast cavity-back irons. These differences, however, aren’t the result of manufacturing technique. Take a look at Figure 1 comparing the frequency response (basically the sound signature) for a forged 5-iron versus a cast 5-iron of exactly the same design from a paper titled “The Comparison of Forged Heads to Cast Heads for Golf Clubs” written by the Mechanical Engineering Department at Virginia Tech University. The conclusion of the paper was that for clubs with a similar material and a similar geometry there isn’t any real difference in sound or feel between forged and cast club heads.

Figure 1: Forged head (left) and cast head frequency analysis showing almost identical sound pattern for both clubs.

We ran a similar experiment that has become semi-legendary over the years in the engineering department. We made S59 6-irons using the same basic material and geometry in cast and forged versions. A test was conducted with 15 of our tour staff and only one player was able to successfully identify which iron was forged and which was cast.

It’s about material and geometry

So if it’s not the forging process that leads to the soft feel, what is it? The properties that really affect the frequency of vibration are mass and the elastic modulus of the material. Elastic modulus is essentially the force needed to permanently stretch or compress a substance. This is similar to, but not the same as hardness. Within reason, harder and softer metals won’t necessarily sound much different — it depends on the elastic modulus. Titanium alloys can be made to have a similar hardness as steel, but a much lower elastic modulus. On the other hand, many of the different types of steel used in golf clubs have a somewhat similar modulus, but vary quite a bit in hardness.

The other property I mentioned, mass, makes the biggest difference in irons. If we’re comparing two 7-irons, the total head mass is likely to be very similar, but the placement of that mass will change the sound significantly. Figure 2 shows toe views of a typical cavity iron and a blade iron. It’s not hard to imagine that the iron with perimeter weighting (the cavity back) will vibrate at a different frequency to the iron with more mass in the middle of the club (muscle back). It’s the geometry of these clubs that differentiates their sound, not whether they are cast or forged.

Figure 2: Typical cavity back iron shape (left) and typical blade iron shape (right).

The historical context

Clearly, the perception is still out there that a forged club feels softer than a cast club. Even here at PING we did an experiment recently where we took two identical S55 irons and etched “forged” on one of them. In the test, one in three players reported a softer feel from the club that had forged written on it, so just the word “forged” creates a particular thought in a golfer’s mind. The reality is that both forging and casting technology in golf have come a long way in the past few decades, and the lines between what manufacturers can do with forged and cast products have become very blurred.

I do still run into a lot of golfers who have the perception that cast clubs are harder and therefore can’t be bent for lie angle. They must have not seen PING’s 10-degree color code chart, which made its debut in the 1970s. The point is that perceptions take a long time to change.

The best thing golfers can can do is keep an open mind and actually experience the feel of different clubs themselves.

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Paul Wood

Paul is the Vice President of Engineering at Ping, coordinating a department responsible for club design, development, innovation and testing. He moved there in 2005 after completing a PhD studying Solar Flares in the Mathematics Department at St Andrews University, Scotland. He has spent most of his time with Ping in the research department working on the physics of ball flight, the club-ball impact and many other aspects of golf science. Some of his projects at Ping include the nFlight fitting software, iPing, Turbulators and TR face technology. The idea behind these articles is to explain a bit about popular scientific topics in golf in a way that is accessible to most. Hopefully that will be easier than it sounds. www.ping.com

118 Comments

Leon

Jul 6, 2015 at 11:23 am

A solid strike, dead center contact determines the feel…

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christian

Jul 4, 2015 at 11:42 am

From the back of my mind I had the inkling that I have heard about a set that was made of both 1025 and SS..And now I remember, there was the Titleist 735 chrome (1025 steel) and 735 Stainless Steel irons! Both forged btw, but different kind of steel, otherwise identical.
And the consensus, and even official line from Titleist if I remember correctly was that the Chrome version felt softer and the Stainless felt firmer. So there you go.

Reply Report comment
Paul Wood

Jul 4, 2015 at 11:40 am

To Bob on facebook: I’m sorry I don’t seem to be able to reply directly to these comments on facebook without logging in on my personal account. I’d really like to hear more about your experiences trying to bend our irons. We bend 5 up and 5 down at the factory but I know we do it a little different. If you could call Ping’s customer service and ask to be put through to me I’ll get back to you as soon as possible. I’d like to better understand the needs of folks like you regarding bending. As I said, we’re aiming for strong and high performance but bendable.

Reply Report comment
- birly-shirly
  
  Jul 4, 2015 at 5:32 pm
  
  Paul – an article on bending Pings for loft and lie would be awesome. Ping provides a great customer service, but there are some of us who still like to do our own work.
  There is advice out there about whether it’s best to use heat (and re-glue), or brute force and perseverence, or give up altogether, the fear that beyond a degree or two hosels are more likely to break, and the issue of “memory” or the club returning to original spec.
  
  An informed response addressing these sort of issues would be great. I’ve liked Ping irons going back years, but the perceived issues with adjustment compared to traditional forged heads are a disincentive.
  
  Reply Report comment
Jayw

Jul 4, 2015 at 4:42 am

I believe that in the near future variable face thickness irons will be more the norm rather than the solid thick forged or cast irons. Most people, both Professional and amateurs have migrated from the old solid wooden and steel head drivers and fairways to variable face thickness. Some of the reasons are because of the better ball flight, feel, off center forgiveness, and in most cases, added distance. Some of the discussion is whether someone can really tell the difference between forged and cast irons. The answers are probably ~50/50 that you can or cannot tell the difference. I’d like to add one more iron to the discussion and that is variable face thickness irons. I believe that in the near future variable face thickness irons will catch on just like the Drivers and fairways. The VFT irons have most all of the benefits as VFT Drivers and fairways. You can use graphite or steel shafts and there is little or no vibration or shock on off center hits. Also, they do have feel. They are not muted so much that you can’t tell when you’ve hit it off center. I play the Wishon 771csi Variable face thickness irons and they feel and play great. I know for myself that I don’t ever want feel that occasional harsh toe shot that I felt in my old cast irons. I believe that most people can feel a distinct deference been a cast or forged iron to that of VFT iron.

Reply Report comment
- Christosterone
  
  Jul 4, 2015 at 9:07 am
  
  I have Srixon u45 2 and 3 irons…
  I gotta say they are amazing to hit…
  I can see a whole,set being like them at some point in the future…
  I think Japan already has a titleist set like that right now.
  
  Reply Report comment
DJ

Jul 3, 2015 at 8:43 pm

you can use the same club head, but switch the shaft, and that’s where you’ll “feel” a difference.

Reply Report comment
- RG
  
  Jul 4, 2015 at 1:42 pm
  
  The article is so correct. So much is in a golfers head. Yes the feeling is different from head to head, some people like steak and some like sushi. What I wouldlike is for Paul to do an article on shaft flex and how little it matters in performance, but how important it is in feel.
  
  Reply Report comment
TonyK

Jul 3, 2015 at 4:36 pm

Maybe there is not much difference between cast and forged irons made from the same material, but showing frequency responses of the two does not convince me that much. I see a quite notable difference in the high frequency range (5+kHz) that can make enough difference in sound perception. Besides, Human perception of sound is extremely delicate and hard to be defined by a few frequency response lines. In this kind of logic or effort to define the sound, every violin would sound “basically the same” because their frequency responses are not much different. The truth is, there is a hugh difference that trained ears can easily tell between musical instruments of $100, $1000, $10K.

I am more interested in the experiments that Ping’s engineers couldn’t tell the difference between the two. Also interestingly Mizuno once said that people with ears plugged couldn’t tell the difference in the irons feel.

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dcorun

Jul 3, 2015 at 11:01 am

I play the 588 MT irons with a forged face applied to a cast body and they feel great when hit solid but you know when you haven’t by the vibration or feel of the hit. How does this apply to a completely forged club and a investment cast club?

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Perry Gill

Jul 3, 2015 at 10:50 am

I’m sorry but this feels like BS. If the feel was the same between cast an forged, why does every cast ping iron have a shock absorber? Even the wedges. They have to be in there to not feel harsh.

Reply Report comment
- M
  
  Jul 3, 2015 at 11:44 am
  
  If you are talking about weights in the heads, those are called CTP (custom tuning port) weights. They are there to dial in swing weight as well as help pull the CG lower and back.
  
  If you are talking about Cushin, that is a custom option to help soften certain vibrations which give some arthritic golfers pain in their joints.
  
  Reply Report comment
christian

Jul 3, 2015 at 10:19 am

http://www.atcgroup.com.au/CustomCastingForging/TheDifferenceBetweenCastingForging.aspx

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- Paul Wood
  
  Jul 4, 2015 at 11:30 am
  
  Christian, thanks for sharing. That’s a useful website and a decent explanation of some of the features, pros and cons of forging and casting.
  Paul
  
  Reply Report comment
kloyd0306

Jul 2, 2015 at 11:46 pm

Regarding the head – Paul has pretty much nailed it…….
Mass directly behind the ball absorbs shock. The greater the mass, the greater the shock absorption.
Whether cast or forged – if the degree of mass is the same, the degree of shock absorption is the same.
The shaft plays a major part in feel as well.
A slow swinger will find a C Taper X flex feels very harsh while a fast/strong swinger will find an A flex (steel or graphite) very mushy.

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Christosterone

Jul 2, 2015 at 9:56 pm

FYI: Ping uses deflationary protracted recession forging….it is forging but differs in its ability to “form” a wider array of metals.
I play Japan Tour issue Srixon Z945 forged blades and, frankly, I love the chrome 🙂
Make a cast club with a small head that is chromed and I’m game to try it…
-Christosterone

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Gorden

Jul 2, 2015 at 9:43 pm

Hard to tell difference between a good casting and a good forged club, but you can tell the difference between a poorly cast club and a good one in seconds…….That was one of the big selling points for PING years ago, they called it investment casting….

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Walter

Jul 2, 2015 at 6:10 am

Great articles and comments.

Thank you all

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BigBoy

Jul 2, 2015 at 12:53 am

Thanks, but I’ll keep hitting my real forged irons 😉

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Roger in New Zealand

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:15 pm

Great article ! Liking my S58’s more and more !!!
Love the S55 and S59 test results !
Recently bought a G10 3 wood and that sounds great too !!
Especially when i hit it in the centre and it lands in the centre !!
I have had softer forgings, harder forgings(710mb) and S58,s.
Great to see the results are in !!
Play your Best !!

Reply Report comment
alan

Jul 1, 2015 at 9:14 pm

i own and practice with a set of i25s(cast) and play with ap2’s forged. i dont feel a difference in them, at all

Reply Report comment
- BigBoy
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 12:56 am
  
  AP2s, not a true forged iron.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Joe
    
    Jul 2, 2015 at 12:07 pm
    
    (another reminder you are reading GolfWRX). Tell us why the AP2 isn’t forged… Because it wasn’t a full moon and there wasn’t powdered unicorn horn sprinkled into the slurry? The club is a true forging with added technology. In fact the club couldn’t be MORE forged.
    
    Reply Report comment
    - ABgolfer2
      
      Jul 2, 2015 at 4:36 pm
      
      Added technology? Clearly the club could be more forged.
      
      Reply Report comment
    - Nathan
      
      Jul 3, 2015 at 4:10 pm
      
      Ahh the ap2 is pieced together with a forged face. True forged is from one piece of steel e.g mizuno.
      Cmon dude
      
      Reply Report comment
      - SKip
        
        Jul 7, 2015 at 5:25 pm
        
        LOL you lose Joe. Probably plays AP2 and had his feelings hurt.
        
        Reply Report comment
        
        Jack
        
        Jul 8, 2015 at 3:28 am
        
        That’s what I play and it doesn’t feel that great. But I can’t argue with the results.
        
        Reply Report comment
Sean

Jul 1, 2015 at 7:42 pm

I’ve played both. A well struck shot with both feels great. I cannot tell the difference.

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Rich

Jul 1, 2015 at 7:37 pm

I haven’t read all 55 odd posts here so unless someone has already said it here goes. It’s not the manufacturing process that defines the difference in feel. It’s the material. Casting involves pouring molten metal into a mould and forging involves punching out a shape using force. If the same material is used in each process, of course there is little difference. However, I don’t care if your are a PhD of anything, you can’t tell me that if you were to cast one iron head of 17-4 SS and one of S25C carbon steel (if it could be done) that the S25C wouldn’t feel/sound softer than the 17-4 SS. It would be ridiculous to suggest that they would feel/sound the same. Feel is mostly about the sound and there is no way carbon steel heads sound the same as stainless steel heads, even if the same manufacturing process is used. People associate forging with carbon steel, not stainless steel, that’s why people say forged irons feel softer. While this article is fundamentally correct in a lot of ways, feel is not scientific, it is subjective and no matter how science tries, there is no way to measure or test a subjective point of view.

Reply Report comment
- Large chris
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 7:33 am
  
  Maybe have another go at reading the article then…..
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Rich
    
    Jul 2, 2015 at 11:13 am
    
    What’s your point?
    
    Reply Report comment
    - Large chris
      
      Jul 3, 2015 at 2:42 pm
      
      My point is that the article does an excellent job of explaining how a lot of ‘feel’ can be evaluated and measured scientifically, in direct contradiction of your meanderings and prejudice.
      
      Reply Report comment
      - Rich
        
        Jul 4, 2015 at 1:09 am
        
        Prejudice? I currently play TMAG R9 TP irons and my spares are TMAG tour preferred MC (with the slot) and Ping S57’s. What prejudice would you be referring to? The one where I only play forged irons? Wrong pal.
        
        Reply Report comment
        
        Large chris
        
        Jul 4, 2015 at 5:58 pm
        
        I’m not your pal sorry
        
        Reply Report comment
- Nevin
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 9:13 am
  
  “We made S59 6-irons using the same basic material and geometry in cast and forged versions. A test was conducted with 15 of our tour staff and only one player was able to successfully identify which iron was forged and which was cast.”
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Rich
    
    Jul 2, 2015 at 11:12 am
    
    Exactly. They used the same basic material, they just forged one and cast the other. Of course they are going to feel the same. It’s not the manufacturing process that dictates now soft and iron sounds/feels. It’s the material that is used to make the iron head. As I said before, it shouldn’t be a question of forged vs cast, it is a question of what material are the irons made from.
    
    Reply Report comment
    - christian
      
      Jul 3, 2015 at 9:46 am
      
      Exactly. But casting soft carbon steel like 1020 or 1025 is apparently not ideal. So most cast clubs are SS. And forged clubs can take advantage of using the softer carbon steel, which from what I undestand is better suited to be forged.
      
      Reply Report comment
- Tom
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 1:13 pm
  
  from your reply, “Feel is mostly about the sound and there is no way carbon steel heads sound the same as stainless steel heads, even if the same manufacturing process is used.” From the author, “The reality is that both forging and casting technology in golf have come a long way in the past few decades, and the lines between what manufacturers can do with forged and cast products have become very blurred” I guess you two will have to agree to disagree.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Rich
    
    Jul 3, 2015 at 4:13 am
    
    No, I don’t have to. I agree with him on that statement but that statement has no relevance to the quote you used from my reply. Read my reply again and you’ll see I’m saying it’s the material being used to make the iron that determines the feel as opposed to the manufacturing process.
    
    Reply Report comment
    - Tom
      
      Jul 3, 2015 at 10:47 am
      
      “It’s about material and geometry
      
      So if it’s not the forging process that leads to the soft feel, what is it? The properties that really affect the frequency of vibration are mass and the elastic modulus of the material. Elastic modulus is essentially the force needed to permanently stretch or compress a substance. This is similar to, but not the same as hardness. Within reason, harder and softer metals won’t necessarily sound much different — it depends on the elastic modulus. Titanium alloys can be made to have a similar hardness as steel, but a much lower elastic modulus. On the other hand, many of the different types of steel used in golf clubs have a somewhat similar modulus, but vary quite a bit in hardness.”
      
      Reply Report comment
- M
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 7:07 pm
  
  What is majority of Carbon Steel made of? Iron.
  
  What is the majority of Stainless Steel made of? Iron.
  
  The largest constituent of the metal will dictate the feel and the sound if they are made to the same dimensions like Paul says in the article regardless of process.
  
  Reply Report comment
Mo Betta

Jul 1, 2015 at 6:26 pm

Sound is feel. Feel is sound. But Sound != Feel && Feel != Sound. Burma Shave.

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Jang Hyung-sun

Jul 1, 2015 at 6:19 pm

The two best feeling irons in my equipment room are 1972 Hogan Apex, and Miura Giken MB5003. Both of these are hand forged and by far the softest, heavy feeling, butter smooth irons I have hit.

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Joe

Jul 1, 2015 at 6:07 pm

GREAT Article. I’d call it GOSPEL.

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FlyPhish

Jul 1, 2015 at 5:31 pm

The frequency spectrum graphs are similar, but far from identical. There is much more noise in the cast, leading to a less crisp or defined sound and “feel” profile.

This article is at best skewed, at worst misleading.

Reply Report comment
- Boh
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 5:38 pm
  
  The graphs may look slightly different, but from what I understand there was not a statistically significant difference.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - FlyPhish
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 5:50 pm
    
    It is a log based scale, please take that into account when pointing out small differences. Further, I’m sure all sound profiles of a steel golf club striking a ball “look” similar.
    
    It’s the details that distinguish them. The cast version is much noisier even with the naked eye. This is also not taking into account and signal processing that may have been performed.
    
    Reply Report comment
    - KK
      
      Jul 1, 2015 at 9:45 pm
      
      No mention of the sole shape and turf interaction affecting feel. I think it, as well as sole size, does have an observable contribution.
      
      Reply Report comment
- Paul Wood
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 10:03 pm
  
  I would agree with your general interpretation of the graphs. However, the conclusion of the authors of the paper at Virginia Tech, who are certainly more experts on this subject than I, was that the two clubs sound basically the same. Again, I’m not trying to make an argument for or against forging or casting. This was meant to say that the club’s geometry is a much bigger determinant of feel than the manufacturing method.
  
  Reply Report comment
Paul Wood

Jul 1, 2015 at 5:14 pm

I’m really pleased that a lot of people have enjoyed the article and that a lot of people have had a comment to post on it. I’d love to reply to all but I’m not going to be able to – sorry. I would like to say that the intent was not to say that forged is an inferior way to make an iron. Forging is a very good manufacturing technique and so is casting. In the past, forging had massive limitations in terms of trying to create certain geometries but that has changed a lot as forging techniques have got better. Casting used to have limitations such as the available materials to use but that has changed a lot too. Even in my time at PING I’ve seen both manufacturing methods improve a lot. My aim was to try to explain a little more about what is happening when you feel a particular feel, not to try to deny anyone feels what they do at impact.

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Dave n

Jul 1, 2015 at 4:54 pm

Regarding the legendary test: seems like something was wrong with the test if only 1 in 15 guessed correct. With so few permutations, I would have expected it to be around 50%…complete random selection could have done better than 1/15. Or maybe 25%. Any math/stats guys want to chime in on this?

Reply Report comment
- Paul Wood
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 5:03 pm
  
  In the test, 14 out of 15 reported they couldn’t tell a difference. They didn’t have to guess if they didn’t know.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Dave n
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 8:11 pm
    
    Got it! Thank you for the clarification.
    
    Reply Report comment
- petie3_2
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 pm
  
  The way I understood it was the errors were random with regard to 14/15 subjects; the other guy could tell the difference correctly a significantly greater percentage of the time. BTW having played Cobra s2 cast and s2 forged they look very similar but have a much different feel; I prefer cast. Forgings and blades/musclebacks cater to the lower handicap (5 or better) player and wannabes. Those of us older than 70 just want to get the damn ball in the air fairly straight.
  
  Reply Report comment
chuck hackett

Jul 1, 2015 at 4:49 pm

Still have a set of Hogans, 1-pw Apex 2. Must have had 6 other sets from Wilson to current Touredge full hybrids. Nothing ever felt as good when hit smack on the sweet spot. The comment on the soft tip Hogan shafts was dead on point!

Reply Report comment
Tom Wishon

Jul 1, 2015 at 4:40 pm

Paul, extremely well done and very pleased you introduced the golfers to the matter of clubheads having their own unique natural frequency – supported by the VaTech information. Very well done !

Back in 2002 when I was working for a year as a production consultant for a major forging factory, we tripped across this almost by accident when we inaugurated a 5th step into the forging process. We did it chiefly to reduce the amount of material the workers had to grind from the heads to achieve a more consistent head after head profile shape in production for a major OEM’s forged iron model.

Later on we found this 5th forging step not only tightened the weight tolerance of the raw forgings to allow for higher consistency in overall production, but in packing the carbon steel more densely in the die, the photo micrographs showed a significant reduction in the internal voids and inclusions within the steel. This in turn changed the natural frequency of the heads upon impact which was detected in the form of a change in impact feel by the tour players who used the irons before with only a 4-step forging process vs the same iron model after the 5th forging step was added.

Great contribution here to add more basis for the weight distribution/geometry having more to do with the impact feel of the iron head. Well done and thanks for your time.

Reply Report comment
- Cliff
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 8:19 am
  
  This comment leads me to believe that forged irons are superior to cast if forged correctly.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Tom Wishon
    
    Jul 21, 2015 at 10:50 am
    
    Cliff – not really. Both methods of production have their plusses and minuses in different areas related to quality and performance. With straight forging, you can’t make the iron with as deep of a back cavity to have as high of an MOI as you can with casting. But then if you forge a blank back head but then CNC machine the entire back cavity, you then can achieve the same high MOI that is so routinely possible in a casting. Problem is, that costs a lot more to do that so not all golfers are going to spring for such an iron.
    
    While a few years ago it was not possible to cast the same 10 series carbon steels used in typical forging of iron heads, today some factories can cast 10 series carbon steel alloys. So that offers a reason to say the superior weight distribution creation capability of casting can combine with the softness of carbon steels to offer a good performing iron design.
    
    In the end, it is up to the designer and the production factory as to the final quality and final performance of any head design. But no matter what, no clubhead can work as well as it was intended to perform unless it is combined with proper fitting of all the other specs to each different golfer. That part will never change no matter where head design goes in the future.
    
    Reply Report comment
- Paul Wood
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 10:07 pm
  
  Thanks Tom. Very nice to get an encouraging comment from you. Clearly this topic has interested folks and inspired some debate which has to be a good thing.
  
  Reply Report comment
other paul

Jul 1, 2015 at 2:57 pm

I played xhot tours for a year and switched to titleist CBs and I can’t tell the difference at all on a perfect shot. Bad hits obviously felt better with the frying pan Xhots.

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Stephen Zap

Jul 1, 2015 at 2:08 pm

I certainly have no problem believing that a forged and a cast club made of the same material and geometry feel the same, especially with same shaft and swingweight, and as interesting as this is, I am not sure what the value is. Does anyone make a forged club and a cast club with the same material and geometry?

Reply Report comment
- antonio
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 11:03 am
  
  +1. That is exactly the point
  
  Reply Report comment
Leanord Hofstatder II

Jul 1, 2015 at 2:07 pm

I think you hit on the key when you wrote “The other property I mentioned, mass, makes the biggest difference in irons. If we’re comparing two 7-irons, the total head mass is likely to be very similar, but the placement of that mass will change the sound significantly.” Using modal analysis to evaluate golf club performance as far as feel goes, a lab at Iowa State U sought to differentiate why some clubs feel good and others clunky. This was not standard frequency analysis. What they clearly found was mass distribution impacted the factors of “feel” more than anything. Muscle back designs by nature are more desirable for low vibration feel (and sound since they’re twins) by virtue of their inherent mass distribution (whether stamped “FORGED” or not). But cavities can be designed to perform that way too. They also found that the torsional component more than linear ones contributed to feel, so hitting it that sweet spot to reduce twisting is #1 for optimal feel… but of course everyone knew that from experience! (ref Sound and Vibration magazine March 1995)

Reply Report comment
Kelly

Jul 1, 2015 at 1:56 pm

Thanks, Paul. This was a really fascinating, informative read. I believe everything you say in this article completely! I had intuitively made the connection between sound and feel but had no concrete basis for it. I’m glad to actually have this confirmed by someone with your knowledge/background.

Reply Report comment
Ryan

Jul 1, 2015 at 1:56 pm

Paul,
I work at a golf shop and every person that wants a cast iron’s lie angle changed, besides Ping, we always say that there is no guarantee that we can get more than a degree either way. Cast clubs have a tendency to break or the lie angles will snap back, whereas forged clubs can be easily adjusted. Does the heat treatment that Ping uses make the difference in their adjustability?

Reply Report comment
- Kelly
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 3:53 pm
  
  I don’t think it has anything to do with it being cast or forged; it has to do with what metal is used in the casting. For example a 17-4 stainless steel is very hard and difficult to bend. But other metals, such as the 303 stainless steel, is easily bent. My SMT 303MB/CBs bend without a problem. In fact, over consecutive bends, my 7, 8, and 9 irons got to be as far as 6 degrees from the original manufactured lofts. I bent them back to the suggested lofts a while back — that was an eye-opener let me tell you! Turns out I can’t hit a 9-iron 150 yards. 🙂
  
  Reply Report comment
- Paul Wood
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 5:05 pm
  
  Ryan, yes it does. It’s like baking a cake – the oven settings are just as important as the ingredients. It’s very much the same with materials. In particular, we want to get the heat treatment to provide a material that is strong but will still bend without breaking.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - john
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 11:57 pm
    
    that’s funny since ping’s are well known as the hardest to lie angle bend lol
    
    there’s a pro in a club not far from me who heats them up to glowing red then bends them, only way to do it.
    
    Reply Report comment
Jim M

Jul 1, 2015 at 1:39 pm

Awesome recent tags by Chuck,Wendell….with same iron head, regardless of shape & steel properties; it’s gotta be shaft. As this site tried (in some vane!) to compare blades in shootout (they 4got FEEL, Workability, Looks @ Address!) recently, a better feel test should be made with iron shafts of Same Wts. class. Try all S flex steel from 120g-132g in one category, all S flex steel from 105-119g next, and S flex steel <105g last. That's the one that would end feel differences, they could put them all on a common Ping iron head for all I care.

Reply Report comment
random guy

Jul 1, 2015 at 1:39 pm

” We made S59 6-irons using the same basic material and geometry in cast and forged versions. A test was conducted with 15 of our tour staff and only one player was able to successfully identify which iron was forged and which was cast.”

Why not test feedback for different levels of carbon in the cast vs forged irons? Scientifically, one is softer than the other and could definitely have an impact on sound; which is apparently the only deciding factor in feel….

Reply Report comment
- christian
  
  Jul 3, 2015 at 9:52 am
  
  Exactly, one of the heads should have been cast SS and the other 1020 forged. And the two heads should be identical otherwise.
  
  Reply Report comment
Robert

Jul 1, 2015 at 1:26 pm

We still have forged Anser fitting heads in our Ping fitting cart! There is no bias from the article-they make both cast and forged heads. He is trying to educate the consumers to what is actually happening. Sounds like readers are biased and can’t change their minds after an unbiased article.

Reply Report comment
- Boh
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 1:33 pm
  
  even if article is biased, the scientific study was conducted by a university. Some may still feel there is bias, but they could probably go find the study, read the details, and see there really isn’t a measurable difference.
  
  Reply Report comment
Alex T

Jul 1, 2015 at 1:22 pm

If what’s written in this article is true, and I see no reason to disagree with or disbelieve it, then why do manufacturers still even make forged clubs? What’s the point? Surely it would save everyone involved (producers and consumers) loads of money to just cast everything? Either way, I won’t be trading in my MP-64s any time soon, I’d just like to know…

Reply Report comment
- Boh
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 1:32 pm
  
  marketing
  
  Reply Report comment
  - random guy
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 1:47 pm
    
    so mizuno and miura, who do very little marketing, forge their irons only for marketing purposes? makes sense
    
    Reply Report comment
    - Boh
      
      Jul 1, 2015 at 2:42 pm
      
      marketing doesn’t just include money spent on advertising. At one point they built their supply chains to do forged irons. When I think Mizuno I think forged, that is marketing. People associate the mizuno name with forged and that is why they continue doing it.
      
      Same would go for any forged JDM. When you are known for doing something you will continue doing it until it is not successful. If they were truly struggling companies and couldn’t sell a forged offering, they would probably look to cast clubs.
      
      Mizuno did come out with the JPX EZ which I believe was cast, and they followed it up with a Forged version. I don’t play Miz, but seeing sales numbers would be interesting
      
      Reply Report comment
- christian
  
  Jul 3, 2015 at 9:55 am
  
  Because the softest carbon steel is not very suitable to being cast. Otherwise Ping and others would cast clubs in 1018 or 1020 steel. And forging still gives the tightest tolerances and most uniform grain.
  
  Reply Report comment
Doc

Jul 1, 2015 at 12:52 pm

I don’t know anyone who REALLY cares what sound an iron makes. If the ball flight is good and it has solid strike feel across the face nobody will care what frequency the sound is. To me, “feel” is 95% more about the head/shaft balance and swing weighting. I can pick up a great club from a tour pro and still not like it before I even make a swing.

Reply Report comment
- Carlito
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 9:24 pm
  
  But if the sound directly translates to the feel, doesn’t that mean we should all care about it?
  
  Reply Report comment
Stephen Zap

Jul 1, 2015 at 12:42 pm

Interesting article. Is this just talking about the difference of a forged or cast club made of the same steel or does it include the difference in feel between a 17-4 stainless steel club and a 1020 carbon steel club? I have worked doing club repair including loft and lie alterations for several years. My experience is that the 17-4 club is much harder to bend than the 1020 carbon steel club.

Reply Report comment
Ronnie

Jul 1, 2015 at 12:15 pm

Have you tired Miura Irons, Try and compare Ronnie

Reply Report comment
- LR - France
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 12:32 pm
  
  Yes I tried. Too expensive. Not a big feel difference with other good forged heads.
  
  Reply Report comment
Victor K.

Jul 1, 2015 at 12:00 pm

Thanks for a clear and concise article Paul. The myth that forged clubs are softer than cast clubs has been an oft-repeated marketing dictum. Having said that, while I have bought many sets of modern clubs both cast and forged, my personal preference is playing a set of old Jack Nicklaus forged clubs with traditional lofts.

Reply Report comment
- christian
  
  Jul 4, 2015 at 6:02 am
  
  If anybody ever believed that just forging something would make it softer then I feel sorry for them. What is true, and is the basis of the marketing you refer to as being false, is that a 1020 iron head will feel softer than a stainless steel one. And SS i really rather unsuitable for the forging process (to much wear on the die) and soft carbon steel does not cast well. So the marketing saying forged 1020 or 1025 or 1030 irons feel softer than cast SS is completely true.
  Forged = almost always soft carbon steel. And only very rarely 8620 or even stainless, but it’s VERY rare.
  
  Reply Report comment
Adam

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:50 am

I’ve tested numerous clubs, cast and forged. I will tell you this, that a flush shot is a flush shot is a flush shot. Some clubs (like the 5 iron in the i25 and RSi2 sets which are cast) felt better across the board because of forgiveness on mishits compared to forged blades. I chalk this up to a bigger difference between cavity backs and blades then it is a difference between forged or cast. I went into my last fitting expecting to buy the forged AP2s and walked out with cast i25s and couldn’t be happier!
But I will say that the i25s feel a million times better than my old i5s. Maybe its the geometry of the club or slightly different materials, but it’s a massive difference and I couldn’t ask for any more “feel” out of my new clubs

Reply Report comment
Nor

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:50 am

So are you saying expensive casted clubs made by Ping are no different from cheaper casted sets such as SpeedBladez?

Reply Report comment
- Scooter McGavin
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 12:20 pm
  
  Since when are Ping clubs more expensive than Taylormades? Speedblades are only cheaper because they are like 1 or 2 years old. Their current RSI 1 is the same price as the G30 irons. $800 for an 8 piece steel set.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Nor
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 7:47 pm
    
    And Ping keep their irons on sale for 2 years so compare them to discounted TaylorMade is fair game. And it can be any iron, some bargain basement at a bigbox store is as good as Pings as long as the shape is similar!
    
    Reply Report comment
    - Scooter McGavin
      
      Jul 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
      
      When it comes to feel, maybe, but that is all the article addresses. Your comments say that other clubs are “no different” or are “just as good” if they have the same head shape. They might have the same feel, but I wouldn’t say no different. There is overall build quality to consider. A bargain bin iron will use worse materials and components including epoxy, badges, shaft, grip, etc. That’s why cheap clubs break or fall apart. He even says that the shaft plays a role in the feel. And as a side note, yes, TMAG discounts their old clubs, but so does Ping. A more accurate comparison would be Speedblades to G25s. But to imply as you did in your 1st comment that Ping clubs are more expensive than other major OEMs is just not accurate. They are around the same price, and they also discount their old clubs. It’s just done over a longer span of time.
      
      Reply Report comment
      - Nor
        
        Jul 7, 2015 at 11:22 pm
        
        Pings are more expensive where i live i based my comment on that.
        
        If Ping and Taylormade are roughly the same price, then the feel, construction quality and performance should be similar, yeah?
        Yet all i saw around here was people bashing Taylormade and praising ping, totally in contradiction with the article.
        
        Reply Report comment
LR - France

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:49 am

The article is partially true. It is not the process that makes the difference (cast vs forged).
Shape of the head has an impact on feel (cavity vs muscle) but also the properties of the material.
Most of the time forged heads use “softer” material than cast heads.
Casting process cannot accept “soft” material used for forging process.

Reply Report comment
- BcavWecllh
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 12:25 pm
  
  Not true. Feel is mostly sound. The ball is on the club face foe about 1/2 second per round. You can’t feel that.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - LR - France
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 12:36 pm
    
    Yes I can
    
    Reply Report comment
    - Carlito
      
      Jul 1, 2015 at 9:33 pm
      
      So did you just read the article and completely dismiss it? He even gave an example where tour pros could not differentiate the two based strictly on the feel. Not saying you couldn’t be the rare person who can accurately discerne the difference but the article clearly states that using similar material with the different processes there is not a difference in sound or feel.
      
      Reply Report comment
- M
  
  Jul 2, 2015 at 7:00 pm
  
  Vokey casts from 1025 carbon steel which is typically a forging grade for the golf industry.
  
  Stainless steels (like 17-4) can also be forged. However it takes more force to shape the metal since heat cannot permeate the body of the metal as well as carbon or low alloy steels (like 8620 or 1025). The added alloy elements that decrease corrosion and increase strength are what cause the lower heat transfer.
  
  It can be done but it takes more forging stages and longer heating times.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - christian
    
    Jul 3, 2015 at 9:59 am
    
    Vokeys are cast 8620. Softer carbon steel like 1020 and 1025 is really not suitable for casting. Vokey DO have the JDM cold forged wedges that are forged 1025.
    
    Reply Report comment
Lindsay Morrison

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:48 am

Great article. I’m a crappy golfer looking to change my Hi Bore Clevelands for something that goes further. I’m reading everything I can find. It seems that forgiving irons don’t go as far as unforgiving irons. For Tom above it’s GUCCI no Cucci;) I’d drive a Porsche if I had the money.

Reply Report comment
- Tom
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 2:12 pm
  
  Lol ..Thanks for the correction.
  
  Reply Report comment
Max

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:42 am

I have alternated between Mizuno and PING for the last 25 years. My experience/perception is that nothing comes close to the feel of a pured forged blade long iron. None of my PING clubs have ever come close in that regard. I also believe that the less of a divot you take, the more you can tell the difference. I cannot tell a difference in wedges, short irons or even down to 7, or even 6. But, sweeping a 3,4,5 iron off the turf (and especially off a tee on a par 3) and forged just feels better. I grew up playing blades before all this ‘forged feels better’ marketing and that has been my experience. However, I recently had the i25’s and they were pretty good so the gap is closing for sure.

Reply Report comment
Jonny B

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:19 am

I play cast irons – X2 Hot Pros. They didn’t feel as great as my previous forged set (Titleist 804), but the added distance and forgiveness was worth it. To compensate for the lack in feel I swapped the DG shafts for KBS and installed some foam shaft inserts right below the grips. They feel great now!

Reply Report comment
chad ryan

Jul 1, 2015 at 11:00 am

I agree the differences are not dramatic. But i would also say that perception is reality. And if you perceive a club to feel better, then to you, it does.
*It should also be noted that this is not an unbiased article it’s written by a guy who works for a company that doesn’t make forged clubs. So naturally he would present evidence that there is no difference.

Reply Report comment
- J
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 11:41 am
  
  They don’t? Huh.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - M
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 11:45 am
    
    Chad – what about forged Anser irons? Although they haven’t released one in a few generations.
    
    Reply Report comment
    - chad ryan
      
      Jul 1, 2015 at 12:01 pm
      
      I know those are forged. But currently PING does not make forged irons. They are the only premium manufacturer i can think of that doesn’t.
      
      Reply Report comment
- Tom
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 11:45 am
  
  The bias card already. I have read similar articles from writers/testers who are not affiliated with any club producers.
  
  Reply Report comment
- BcavWecllh
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 12:28 pm
  
  I used to work for a major ball mfg. we did the same sort of testing for ball hardness. When wearing headphones, players couldn’t tell the difference between a balata ball and a two piece surlyn ball because they couldn’t hear impact. If you think you can tell a difference it’s because you think there is one.
  
  Reply Report comment
Lee H.

Jul 1, 2015 at 10:57 am

Why does it seem like cast irons hit the ball further than a similarly styled forged iron? I’ve tried different brands that make a cast cavity back model and then a similar cavity back pro model that’s forged.

Reply Report comment
- Boh
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 11:33 am
  
  Could be the loft, shaft length, shaft, spin rate, launch angle, plethora of other metrics not contributed by the club.
  
  Reply Report comment
duckjr78

Jul 1, 2015 at 10:44 am

Great article by one of the sharpest minds in the golf club business. Thank you for sharing a bit of your expertise with us Paul!

Reply Report comment
J

Jul 1, 2015 at 10:33 am

So who’s going to be the first to tell the man with the PhD that works at Ping that he’s wrong?

Cool article. Nice read.

Reply Report comment
- Tom
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 10:59 am
  
  Don’t worry some JDM lovin, muscle back carrin, Porsche drivin, Cucci wearin poster will soon be on a rant.
  
  Reply Report comment
- Boh
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 11:34 am
  
  People who don’t believe in science. I like my forged clubs, but it is personal preference.
  
  Reply Report comment
  - Double Mocha Man
    
    Jul 1, 2015 at 11:55 am
    
    I think my cast clubs are causing climate change…
    
    Reply Report comment
    - LR - France
      
      Jul 1, 2015 at 12:38 pm
      
      Excellent 🙂
      
      Reply Report comment
Chuck

Jul 1, 2015 at 10:13 am

Very nice article, and very well conceived. Bravo.

I’d like to add one other point, or at least one other data point. For years, the standard in forged “feel” were the old 1970’s – 80’s era Ben Hogan Apex lines. Young golfers might not even know about those clubs, except by reputation. There was something important about those clubs, which led to their reputation for great “feel.” It was this; while they were certainly forged, and they were the truest of true blade designs with narrow soles, a high center of gravity and no perimeter weighting, they also used the Hogan proprietary Apex shaft, which had a very soft tip. (Apex shafts were numbered, 1-5, instead of R-S-X.) It was a low-hitting forged blade head married to a soft-tip higher-hitting shaft. The shaft essentially made the head feel soft.

Reply Report comment
- wendell
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 1:19 pm
  
  i agree with this… the right shaft can make a club Feel better and the the wrong shaft can make a club feel horrible. Not enough focus on the shaft and what it does in relation to the feel of a golf club.
  
  Reply Report comment
- golfprotj
  
  Jul 1, 2015 at 6:19 pm
  
  The Apex shafts were mid kick/mid tip/118 grams, You stand corrected lol
  
  Reply Report comment

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19th Hole

Vincenzi’s 2024 RBC Heritage betting preview: Patrick Cantlay ready to get back inside winner’s circle

Published

19 hours ago

Apr 15, 2024

Matt Vincenzi

Just a two-hour drive from Augusta National, the PGA TOUR heads to Harbour Town Golf Links in Hilton Head Island, S.C. Hilton Head Island is a golfer’s paradise and Harbour Town is one of the most beautiful and scenic courses on the PGA TOUR.

Harbour Town Golf Links is a par-71 that measures 7,121 yards and features Bermuda grass greens. A Pete Dye design, the course is heavily tree lined and features small greens and many dog legs, protecting it from “bomb-and-gauge” type golfers.

The field is loaded this week with 69 golfers with no cut. Last year was quite possibly the best field in RBC Heritage history and the event this week is yet another designated event, meaning there is a $20 million prize pool.

Most of the big names on the PGA Tour will be in attendance this week with the exceptions of Hideki Matsuyama and Viktor Hovland. Additionally, Webb Simpson, Shane Lowry, Gary Woodland and Kevin Kisner have been granted sponsors exemptions.

Past Winners at Harbour Town

2023: Matt Fitzpatrick (-17)
2022: Jordan Spieth (-13)
2021: Stewart Cink (-19)
2020: Webb Simpson (-22)
2019: CT Pan (-12)
2018: Sotoshi Kodaira (-12)
2017: Wesley Bryan (-13)
2016: Branden Grace (-9)
2015: Jim Furyk (-18)

In this article and going forward, I’ll be using the Rabbit Hole by Betsperts Golf data engine to develop my custom model. If you want to build your own model or check out all of the detailed stats, you can sign up using promo code: MATTVIN for 25% off any subscription package (yearly is best value).

Key Stats For Harbour Town

Let’s take a look at key metrics for Harbour Town Golf Links to determine which golfers boast top marks in each category over their past 24 rounds.

Strokes Gained: Approach

Strokes Gained: Approach is exceedingly important this week. The greens at Harbour Town are about half the size of PGA TOUR average and feature the second-smallest greens on the tour. Typical of a Pete Dye design, golfers will pay the price for missed greens.

Total SG: Approach Over Past 24 Rounds

Scottie Scheffler (+1.27)
Tom Hoge (+1.27)
Corey Conners (+1.16)
Austin Eckroat (+0.95)
Cameron Young (+0.93)

Good Drive %

The fairways at Harbour Town are tree lined and feature many dog legs. Bombers tend to struggle at the course because it forces layups and doesn’t allow long drivers to overpower it. Accuracy is far more important than power.

Good Drive % Over Past 24 Rounds

Brice Garnett (88.8%)
Shane Lowry (+87.2%)
Akshay Bhatia (+86.0%)
Si Woo Kim (+85.8%)
Sepp Straka (+85.1%)

Strokes Gained: Total at Pete Dye Designs

Pete Dye specialists tend to play very well at Harbour Town. Si Woo Kim, Matt Kuchar, Jim Furyk and Webb Simpson are all Pete Dye specialists who have had great success here. It is likely we see some more specialists near the top of the leaderboard this week.

SG: TOT Pete Dye per round over past 36 rounds:

Xander Schauffele (+2.27)
Scottie Scheffler (+2.24)
Ludvig Aberg (+2.11)
Brian Harman (+1.89)
Sungjae Im (+1.58)

4. Strokes Gained: Short Game (Bermuda)

Strokes Gained: Short Game factors in both around the green and putting. With many green-side bunkers and tricky green complexes, both statistics will be important. Past winners — such as Jim Furyk, Wes Bryan and Webb Simpson — highlight how crucial the short game skill set is around Harbour Town.

SG: SG Over Past 24 Rounds

Jordan Spieth (+1.11)
Taylor Moore (+1.02)
Wyndham Clark (+0.98)
Mackenzie Hughes (+0.86)
Andrew Putnam (+0.83)

5. Greens in Regulation %

The recipe for success at Harbour Town Golf Links is hitting fairways and greens. Missing either will prove to be consequential — golfers must be in total control of the ball to win.

Greens in Regulation % over past 24 rounds:

Brice Garnett (+75.0%)
Scottie Scheffler (+69.9%)
Corey Conners (+69.0%)
Shane Lowry (+68.3%)
Patrick Rodgers (+67.6%)

6. Course History

Harbour Town is a course where players who have strong past results at the course always tend to pop up.

Course History over past 24 rounds:

Patrick Cantlay (+2.34)
Cam Davis (+2.05)
J.T. Poston (+1.69)
Justin Rose (+1.68)
Tommy Fleetwood (+1.59)

The RBC Heritage Model Rankings

Below, I’ve compiled overall model rankings using a combination of the five key statistical categories previously discussed — SG: Approach (24%), Good Drives (20%), SG: SG (14%), SG: Pete Dye (14%), GIR (14%), and Course History (14%)

Shane Lowry
Russell Henley
Scottie Scheffler
Xander Schauffele
Corey Conners
Wyndham Clark
Christiaan Bezuidenhout
Matt Fitzpatrick
Cameron Young
Ludvig Aberg

2024 RBC Heritage Picks

Patrick Cantlay +2000 (FanDuel)

With the exception of Scottie Scheffler, the PGA Tour has yet to have any of their star players show peak form during the 2024 season. Last week, Patrick Cantlay, who I believe is a top-5 players on the PGA Tour, took one step closer to regaining the form that’s helped him win eight events on Tour since 2017.

Cantlay limped into the Masters in poor form, but figured it out at Augusta National, finishing in a tie for 20th and ranking 17th for the week in Strokes Gained: Ball Striking. The former FedEx Cup champion will now head to one of his favorite golf courses in Harbour Town, where he’s had immaculate results over the years. In his six trips to the course, he’s only finished worse than 7th one time. The other finishes include three third places (2017, 2019, 2023) and one runner-up finish (2022). In his past 36 rounds at Harbour Town, Cantlay ranks 1st in Strokes Gained: Total per round at the course by a wide margin (+2.36).

Cantlay is winless since the 2022 BMW Championship, which is far too long for a player of his caliber. With signs pointing to the 32-year-old returning to form, a “signature event” at Harbour Town is just what he needs to get back on the winning track.

Tommy Fleetwood +3000 (FanDuel)

I truly believe Tommy Fleetwood will figure out a way to win on American soil in 2024. It’s certainly been a bugaboo for him throughout his career, but he is simply too talented to go another season without winning a PGA Tour event.

At last week’s Masters Tournament, Fleetwood made a Sunday charge and ended up finishing T3 in the event, which was his best ever finish at The Masters. For the week, the Englishman ranked 8th in the field in Strokes Gained: Approach, 10th in Strokes Gained: Ball Striking and 16th in Strokes Gained: Putting.

Harbour Town is a perfect layout for Fleetwood, and he’s had relative success at this Pete Dye design in the past. In his four trips to the course, he’s finished inside of the top 25 three times, with his best finish, T10, coming in 2022. The course is pretty short and can’t be overpowered, which gives an advantage to more accurate players such as Fleetwood. Tommy ranks 8th in the field in Good Drive % and should be able to plot his way along this golf course.

The win is coming for Tommy lad. I believe there’s a chance this treasure of a golf course may be the perfect one for him to finally break through on Tour.

Cameron Young +3300 (FanDuel)

Cameron Young had a solid Masters Tournament last week, which is exactly what I’m looking for in players who I anticipate playing well this week at the RBC Heritage. He finished in a tie for 9th, but never felt the pressure of contending in the event. For the week, Young ranked 6th in Strokes Gained: Off the Tee and 6th in Strokes Gained: Ball Striking.

Despite being one of the longest players off the tee on the PGA Tour, Young has actually played some really good golf on shorter tracks. He finished T3 at Harbour Town in 2023 and ranks 20th in the field in Good Drive% and 16th in Greens in Regulation in his past 24 rounds. He also has strong finishes at other shorter courses that can take driver out of a players hand such as Copperhead and PGA National.

Young is simply one of the best players on the PGA Tour in 2024, and I strongly believe has what it takes to win a PGA Tour event in the very near future.

Corey Conners +5500 (FanDuel)

Corey Conners has had a disappointing year thus far on the PGA Tour, but absolutely loves Harbour Town.

At last week’s Masters Tournament, the Canadian finished T30 but ranked 20th in the field in Strokes Gained: Approach. In his past 24 rounds, Conners ranks 3rd in the field in Strokes Gained: Approach, 3rd in Greens in Regulation % and 24th in Good Drive %.

In Conners’ last four trips to Harbour Town, his worst finish was T31, last season. He finished T4 in 2021, T12 in 2022 and ranks 8th in Strokes Gained: Total at the course over his past 36 rounds.

Conners hasn’t been contending, but his recent finishes have been encouraging as he has finished in the top-25 in each of his past three starts prior to The Masters, including an impressive T13 at The PLAYERS. His recent improvement in ball striking as well as his suitability for Harbour Town makes Conners a high upside bet this week.

Shane Lowry (+7500) (FanDuel)

When these odds were posted after Lowry was announced in the field, I have to admit I was pretty stunned. Despite not offering much win equity on the PGA Tour over the last handful of years, Shane Lowry is still a top caliber player who has the ability to rise to the top of a signature event.

Lowry struggled to score at The Masters last week, but he actually hit the ball really well. The Irishman ranked 1st for Strokes Gained: Approach on the week and 7th in Strokes Gained: Ball Striking. As usual, it was the putter that let him down, as he ranked 60th in the field in Strokes Gained: Putting.

Harbour Town is most definitely one of Lowry’s favorite courses on the PGA Tour. In his six starts there, he’s finished in the top 10 three times, including third twice. Lowry is sensational at Pete Dye designs and ranks 7th in Strokes Gained: Total in his past 36 rounds on Dye tracks.

Lowry is perfect for Harbour Town. In his past 24 rounds, he ranks 5th in Strokes Gained: Approach, 2nd in Good Drive% and 5th in Green in Regulation %. If he figures it out on the greens, Shane could have his first win in America since 2015.

Lucas Glover +12000 (FanDuel)

This is one of my weekly “bet the number” plays as I strongly believe the odds are just too long for a player of Glover’s caliber. The odds have been too long on Glover for a few weeks now, but this is the first event that I can get behind the veteran being able to actually contend at.

Glover is quietly playing good golf and returning to the form he had after the understandable regression after his two massive victories at the end of 2023. He finished T20 at The Masters, which was his best ever finish at Augusta National. For the week, Lucas ranked 18th for Strokes Gained: Approach and 20th in Strokes Gained: Ball Striking.

Over his past 24 rounds, Glover ranks 9th in Strokes Gained: Approach and 13th in Good Drive %. Harbour Town is a short course that the 44-year-old will be able to keep up with the top players on Tour off the tee. He’s played the course more than 20 times, with mixed results. His best finishes at Harbour Town include a T7 in 2008, but recently has a finish of T21 in 2020.

Glover has proven he can contend with the stars of the Tour on any given week, and this number is flat out disrespectful.

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19th Hole

Vincenzi: The 6 biggest takeaways from the 2024 Masters

Published

22 hours ago

Apr 15, 2024

Matt Vincenzi

The 2024 Masters offered up plenty of excitement throughout the week with Scottie Scheffler delivering when it mattered to live up to his pre-tournament favorite tag. With the year’s opening major now in the books, here are my six biggest takeaways from the 2024 Masters.

Scheffler In a League of His Own

In the most impressive way possible, Scottie Scheffler won the Masters without having his absolute best stuff. For the week, Scottie ranked 19th in Strokes Gained: Approach, which is a category the number player in the world typically dusts the rest of the field in. After a strong approach day on Thursday, the 27-year-old lost strokes to the field on approach on Friday and Saturday, before gaining on Sunday. The iron performance was more than solid, but it was an all-around game that helped Scheffler get it done around Augusta National.

For a year or more, the narrative around Scheffler has been, “With his ball striking, if he can just putt to field average, he’ll be unbeatable.” At Augusta, his ball striking came back down to earth, but his touch around the greens and ability to manage the golf course demonstrated why he is the best player on the planet right now. For the week, Scheffler ranked 1st in the field in Strokes Gained: Around the Green and 24th in Strokes Gained: Putting.

For the time being, there is a major gap between Scottie Scheffler and the second-best player in the world, whoever that may be.

The Future is Now

Ludvig Aberg went into his first back-nine at the Masters with a legitimate shot to win the tournament. When he teed it up on the treacherous 11th hole, he was one behind Scottie Scheffler, who had just stuck one to a few feet on the 9th. By the time he approached his tee shot, which was perfectly striped down the left side of the fairway, he was two behind. Unfortunately, the 24-year-old got too aggressive with his approach at the 11th and found the water, making double bogey. Ludvig rebounded nicely and finished the event in solo second place.

With the Masters now in the rearview, it’s never been more evident that Ludvig Aberg is no longer an “up-and-comer” — he has arrived. The Swede has been an integral part of a winning European Ryder Cup team and has now contended at Augusta National. With a calm demeanor, a picture-perfect swing, and a build and stature that appears as if it was built in a lab, Ludvig Aberg is already amongst the world’s best. I’d be extremely surprised if he wasn’t in the mix at next month’s PGA Championship at Valhalla.

Nostalgia Wins

I try to avoid as many cliches as possible, but there’s something about the Masters that brings out the sentimentality in me. Tiger Woods strategically making his way around Augusta National without all of the physical tools that made him arguably the most dominant athlete in the history of sports will always be riveting, regardless of what score he shoots. Woods made it interesting until a tough stretch of holes on Saturday, but he ultimately wore down, shooting 16 over for the week in difficult conditions. It’s remarkable that the 15-time major champion was able to put together a few solid rounds of golf despite barely playing any competitive golf in 2024. As long as Woods tees it up at Augusta, we will all continue to be mesmerized by it.

Verne Lundquist’s 40th and final Masters Tournament was also a must-watch aspect of the event. The iconic voice of Lundquist and his calls throughout the years still give me chills each time I hear them. Verne is an icon of the game and will be missed in future renditions of the Masters.

The Masters also brings another element that is unique to the tournament. Former champions turn back the clock to battle with the golf course again which creates some amazing stories. There are a few that stick out this year and were an absolute pleasure to witness. 61-year-old Vijay Singh made the cut for the first time since 2018 and shot a pretty incredible even-par, 72 on Sunday. 58-year-old José María Olazábal made the cut as well, reminding us why fellow Spaniard Jon Rahm sought his valuable advice prior to his Masters victory in 2022.

Regardless of who wins, the Masters always delivers.

Bryson Moves the Needle

Plenty will disagree with me on this point, but outside of Tiger Woods, and potentially Rory McIlroy and Jordan Spieth, no one moves the needle in golf as much as Bryson DeChambeau. The uniqueness in which Bryson approaches the game has always been fascinating, and if he gets near the top of the leaderboard at any major championship, whether it’s to root for him or against him, people are interested.

It began on Monday with a pretty bizarre story of DeChambeau using 3D-printed irons that got just got cleared for use by the USGA when the week began. It once again felt like a storyline that would only be possible with a character as eccentric as Bryson. He then raced off to a first-round lead in tough conditions, reminding the world of what made him such a great golfer to begin with. He made some mistakes on the weekend, but still finished a career best T6 at The Masters.

Bryson is more than just quirky; he is a former U.S. Amateur Champion and U.S. Open who I believe will contend for more majors in the future. I will continue to root for DeChambeau, but I’m perfectly content with the fact that plenty will root against him, and I encourage those people to do so. That’s what makes it fun.

LIV Walks Away Empty-Handed

Last year, there were a multitude of questions about LIV players coming into the year’s first major. They had played very limited tournament golf, and critics of LIV questioned whether the 54-hole events were enough to sharpen the players enough to compete against the best in the world on the biggest stage.

The results were fascinating, with LIV players all over the leaderboard. Brooks Koepka held the 36- and 54-hole lead, with Phil Mickelson and Patrick Reed finishing T2 and T4, giving LIV three golfers in the top-4 of the leaderboard.

This season, with even more time removed and with some more massive additions to the roster, the intrigue surrounding LIV players at Augusta was once again palpable. While some players, including Bryson DeChambeau, exceeded expectations, I can’t help but walk away from the Masters feeling underwhelmed by the performance of the LIV players.

Brooks Koepka finished runner-up last season and is a certified major championship killer. The 5-time major champ was never involved and simply didn’t have it at Augusta. Dustin Johnson put together a putrid performance, shooting 13 over for his two rounds, making it fair to wonder if his days of contending at major championships are over as he rapidly approaches his 40th birthday.

Jon Rahm and Joaquin Niemann were both players who were amongst the favorites this week, but Rahm was faced with the daunting duties of defending champion and Niemann proved he was still not quite ready to master the quirks of Augusta National, bleeding strokes both around and on the greens.

To be fair, when all was said and done, LIV had four players in the top twelve at The Masters. Tyrrell Hatton stormed the leaderboard early on Sunday, finishing T9 and earning himself an invite back to Augusta next season. Cam Smith and Patrick Reed put together gritty performances, which isn’t too surprising considering the fact that they both absolutely love Augusta National, but neither ever felt a real threat to win. There’s no doubt the players on LIV are good, and that’s why some encouraging leaderboard positions aren’t enough. They needed to contend.

With no players part of the storyline on Sunday, I view the first major of the year as a disappointment for LIV. The players will head into next month’s PGA Championship at Valhalla with a lot to prove.

Rory’s Struggles Continues

Rory struggling at Augusta National is no surprise at this point. The four-time major champion has now had 10 attempts to complete the career grand slam and has never had a chance to win. His T2 in 2022 was deceiving, the Northern Irishman stormed the leaderboard on Sunday, but was never in contention, and never got within three shots of the winner, Scottie Scheffler.

I didn’t expect Rory to win, but I have to admit that this year felt a bit different. McIlroy played the week prior to the Masters, which he typically doesn’t do, and finished third at the Valero Texas Open. He gained 7.56 strokes on approach and 2.0 strokes off the tee, which told me that his visit with world-renowned swing coach, Butch Harmon, after the Players Championship paid dividends.

McIlroy also approached the media quite differently. He cut his pre-tournament press conference short after only 10 minutes and seemed to be laser-focused on just playing golf.

Despite the different approach to the Masters, the results were the same. McIlroy struggled over the course of the week, finishing T22 (+4) and never sniffed a decent weekend position on the leaderboard. It’s back to the drawing board for McIlroy, and I have doubts that he will ever figure it out at Augusta.

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19th Hole

Vincenzi: The 8 best prop bets for the 2024 Masters

Published

7 days ago

Apr 9, 2024

Matt Vincenzi

We’ve finally reached The Masters and excitement is at an all-time high. The world of golf has been fractured for the better part of two years, but for a week at Augusta National, all of the outside noise will disappear. All of the best players in the world will be together seeking to make history.

RELATED: Vincenzi’s 2024 Masters betting preview: Niemann to play star role at Augusta National

In addition to betting on The Masters champion. This is one of the few weeks of the year where there are so many more markets to explore, with value to be had in plenty of different categories.

Throughout this article, I’ll discuss all of my favorite props and players for the 2024 Masters.

Placement Bets:

Tony Finau Top 5 +750 (DraftKings):

I badly wanted to include Tony Finau in my outright betting selections, but I simply ran out of room on my card. Additionally, it’s slightly difficult to see him hitting the putts necessary to win the Masters on back nine on Sunday. However, I do strongly believe he will play great golf this week at Augusta National.

In his past 24 rounds, Finau ranks 4th in Strokes Gained: Approach is always amongst the best drivers of the golf ball in the game. Back in 2019, Finau had a great chance to win The Masters. I expect him to be hanging around over the weekend once again in 2024.

Gary Woodland Top 20 +550 (DraftKings), Gary Woodland to make the cut -110 (DraftKings):

Last season, Gary Woodland had his best ever finish at The Masters in his eleven tries. The 39-year-old finished T14 and played incredibly steady across all four rounds.

In Woodland’s most recent start at the Texas Children’s Houston Open, he struck the ball incredibly well. He led the field in Strokes Gained: Approach (+8.8) and Strokes Gained: Ball Striking (+10.0).

Gary has been working with Butch Harmon and absolutely flushing the ball both in tournaments and during practice.

Woodland appears to be healthy once again and in a great place physically and mentally. If he can build off his impressive performance at Augusta last year, he can place inside the top ten in 2024.

Additionally, the make the cut number on Woodland seems generous considering the number of players who miss the cut will be relatively small this week. Woodland is striking it well enough to make the cut even if he’s hindered by a balky putter once again.

Thorbjorn Olesen Top 20 +400 (FanDuel):

The Thunder Bear, Thorbjorn Olesen, made his Masters debut in 2013 and finished an incredibly impressive T6 for the week. In the two additional starts he’s made at Augusta National since then, the Dane has continued to be incredibly solid, finishing T44 and T21.

This week, Olesen heads into the week playing some good golf. He gained 3.8 strokes on approach and 5.52 strokes around the green at last week’s Valero Texas Open on his way to a strong T14 finish. Back in January, he won the Ras Al Khaimah Championship on the DP World Tour.

Olesen has the skill set to be successful at Augusta and seems primed for a good performance this week.

Top Nationalities:

Sergio Garcia Top Spanish Player +280 (DraftKings):

I believe Sergio Garcia can get into contention this week with the way he’s striking the ball in addition to his good vibes with a refurbished version of the Scotty Cameron that he used at the 1999 PGA Championship at Medinah.

I am slightly concerned about the emotional letdown he may face after losing in a playoff at LIV Miami, but I believe a veteran and former Masters champion should be able to regroup and focus on an event far more meaningful.

This is essentially a tournament head-to-head with Jon Rahm at +280. While Rahm deserves to be respected this week, the history of the lack of success of defending champions at The Masters is difficult to ignore.

Joaquin Niemann Top South American Player -230 (FanDuel):

While I hate paying this much juice, I don’t see a world in which Joaquin Niemann isn’t the top South American this week at The Masters. Joaco comes in playing better golf than anyone in the world not named Scottie Scheffler and has a serious chance to win the green jacket.

He only needs to beat two players: Emiliano Grillo and Camilo Villegas.

Tournament Head-to-Heads:

Justin Thomas -110 over Collin Morikawa

JT isn’t having his best season but is playing a lot better than he is getting credit for at the moment. In the past three months, there are only six players on the PGA Tour who have averaged 1.7 Strokes Gained: Tee to Green or better. Justin Thomas (+1.7) is one of the six and is currently tied with Rory McIlroy (+1.7).

Morikawa, on the other hand, has been extremely poor with his irons, which is incredibly uncharacteristic for him. I can’t help but feel like something is completely off with the two-time major champion.

Tony Finau -110 over Wyndham Clark

I explained in the placement section why I’m so high on Tony Finau this week. With how well he’s striking the ball, it seems as if his floor is extremely high. I’m not sure if he can make the putts to win a green jacket but I believe he will be in the mix similarly to 2019 when Tiger Woods emerged from a crowded pack of contenders.

Clark is a debutant, and while some debutants have had success at The Masters, it certainly poses a challenge. I also don’t believe Augusta National suits Clark as well as some of the other major championship venues.

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