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Snead, Hogan & Nicklaus vs Tiger, Rory Etc.

Classic Golf Swing Modern Golf Swing

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#1 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:30 PM

One of the things I see most often in today's or the modern swing is something you never saw in the "old" days.

If you want just one example of why the modern conventional golf swing is so hard on the lower back, you just have to compare stances of the greatest swingers against the best golfers today.

Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus were the longest players on Tour in their particular day, or very close to the longest for a long time, and yet they didn't break down.

classic address stances dtl.jpg


Now, you look at the modern players, breaking down all the time, even when they're supposed to be fitter and stronger.   And it isn't that they're swinging harder - who swung harder and hit it further than Nicklaus and Snead?  Greg Norman as well - long hitter, who swung harder than Norman?

Here is the address position of the modern conventional golf swing below:

modern address stances.jpg

Rory looks as if he's trying to strangle a cobra.


I bet I don't even have to say what it is.  But it's the leaning over and rigid-backed posture of the modern set-up.

People aren't meant to swing that way.

Peace,

DJ Watts

Edited by DJ Watts, 12 February 2014 - 02:32 PM.


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#2 HitEmTrue

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:52 PM

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

One of the things I see most often in today's or the modern swing is something you never saw in the "old" days.

If you want just one example of why the modern conventional golf swing is so hard on the lower back, you just have to compare stances of the greatest swingers against the best golfers today.

Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus were the longest players on Tour in their particular day, or very close to the longest for a long time, and yet they didn't break down.


Back problems for golfers aren't a new problem.  Nicklaus had back problems apparently?  Article from 1995:

http://www.nytimes.c...n-the-back.html

( edit )
Greg Norman, whom you mentioned, is also listed in that article as having a back injury from playing golf.

Edited by HitEmTrue, 12 February 2014 - 02:55 PM.


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#3 HitEmTrue

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:54 PM

http://www.hughston....ha/a_13_3_4.htm

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#4 HitEmTrue

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:56 PM

One more, and I'm done:

http://www.posture4l...estimonial.html

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#5 dblxpullhook

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:58 PM

The former greats definitely look slouchy by todays standards.  Is it really better for your back to slouch at address?  Conversely are the injuries to modern players really caused by "better" posture?  Personally I feel more active and athletic with my core engaged and my back relatively straight.  I don't think you see any modern athlete, golf or otherwise with bad posture.

I think to some degree equipment has changed the way golfers look at address, clubs are longer and more upright.  Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus would have a different look at address if they were fitted with modern equipment.


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#6 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:02 PM

 HitEmTrue, on 12 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

One of the things I see most often in today's or the modern swing is something you never saw in the "old" days.

If you want just one example of why the modern conventional golf swing is so hard on the lower back, you just have to compare stances of the greatest swingers against the best golfers today.

Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus were the longest players on Tour in their particular day, or very close to the longest for a long time, and yet they didn't break down.


Back problems for golfers aren't a new problem.  Nicklaus had back problems apparently?  Article from 1995:

http://www.nytimes.c...n-the-back.html

( edit )
Greg Norman, whom you mentioned, is also listed in that article as having a back injury from playing golf.

I might have said what I meant by "break down," meaning injuries at their youngest and healthiest - Rory has been injured already in his first couple of seasons, most of the better 20-somethings have experienced back and neck injuries - sorry if I wasn't clear on that, everyone risks injury as they age, but not in their early and mid-20's...

Cheers,

DJ Watts

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#7 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:09 PM

 dtrance, on 12 February 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

The former greats definitely look slouchy by todays standards.  Is it really better for your back to slouch at address?  Conversely are the injuries to modern players really caused by "better" posture?  Personally I feel more active and athletic with my core engaged and my back relatively straight.  I don't think you see any modern athlete, golf or otherwise with bad posture.

I think to some degree equipment has changed the way golfers look at address, clubs are longer and more upright.  Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus would have a different look at address if they were fitted with modern equipment.

I would disagree, if the clubs are more upright, so much more reason to stand more upright than bent over - I'm 6'1" and use a 45" driver, and I stand more like Snead/Hogan/Nicklaus looking down the line.  44 years old, I can swing at over 120 mph and have never had a back or neck injury.

The reason the straight back is bad is because it puts all the stress and load of the down swing onto the lower back.  With a natural shape to the back, the load is borne more in the area of the back between the neck and where the armpits are.

Respectfully,

DJ Watts

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#8 HitEmTrue

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:10 PM

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

I might have said what I meant by "break down," meaning injuries at their youngest and healthiest - Rory has been injured already in his first couple of seasons, most of the better 20-somethings have experienced back and neck injuries - sorry if I wasn't clear on that, everyone risks injury as they age, but not in their early and mid-20's...

Far enough...

Your observations are anecdotal at best.  I would like to know myself, as better posture is something that I've put myself into over the recent years.

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#9 dairic

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:20 PM

I'm not sure about which is better for back problems, but slouching a bit with chin down has definetly improved my game.

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#10 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:22 PM

 HitEmTrue, on 12 February 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

I might have said what I meant by "break down," meaning injuries at their youngest and healthiest - Rory has been injured already in his first couple of seasons, most of the better 20-somethings have experienced back and neck injuries - sorry if I wasn't clear on that, everyone risks injury as they age, but not in their early and mid-20's...

Far enough...

Your observations are anecdotal at best.  I would like to know myself, as better posture is something that I've put myself into over the recent years.

You can prove it to yourself quite easily - grab a backpack or something similar and put something weighty in it.  Now, stand in the modern golf stance and see how long you can hold it up, or if you can even keep your balance.

Then stand straight up so the bag's against your thighs and, keeping the weight over your feet, relax your upper back and shoulders and extend your buttock out slightly so the bag hangs again.

Which stance would you prefer to use to pull something rooted out of the ground with a good yank - Hogan's stance or Tiger's?

The old guys weren't all lazy - they just used a more correct posture for swinging and bearing loads during the swing itself.

Best,

DJ Watts


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#11 dblxpullhook

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

 dtrance, on 12 February 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

The former greats definitely look slouchy by todays standards.  Is it really better for your back to slouch at address?  Conversely are the injuries to modern players really caused by "better" posture?  Personally I feel more active and athletic with my core engaged and my back relatively straight.  I don't think you see any modern athlete, golf or otherwise with bad posture.

I think to some degree equipment has changed the way golfers look at address, clubs are longer and more upright.  Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus would have a different look at address if they were fitted with modern equipment.

I would disagree, if the clubs are more upright, so much more reason to stand more upright than bent over - I'm 6'1" and use a 45" driver, and I stand more like Snead/Hogan/Nicklaus looking down the line.  44 years old, I can swing at over 120 mph and have never had a back or neck injury.

The reason the straight back is bad is because it puts all the stress and load of the down swing onto the lower back.  With a natural shape to the back, the load is borne more in the area of the back between the neck and where the armpits are.

Respectfully,

DJ Watts

Interesting topic and thanks for sharing.  I hope I am injury free like you when I get to your age!

I can't really quantify why I setup the way I do in terms of posture.  Conventional wisdom I suppose and thats its better to be in a athletic position.

To the instructors on this board, if you get a student looking like Snead at address, do you "correct" it?  If so why?

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:


You can prove it to yourself quite easily - grab a backpack or something similar and put something weighty in it.  Now, stand in the modern golf stance and see how long you can hold it up, or if you can even keep your balance.

Then stand straight up so the bag's against your thighs and, keeping the weight over your feet, relax your upper back and shoulders and extend your buttock out slightly so the bag hangs again.

Which stance would you prefer to use to pull something rooted out of the ground with a good yank - Hogan's stance or Tiger's?

The old guys weren't all lazy - they just used a more correct posture for swinging and bearing loads during the swing itself.

Best,

DJ Watts

In this instance I think Hogans posture would provide better leverage.  However if I were doing squats at the gym, I'd be better served by Tiger's posture.  How does either action pertain to the efficiency of the golf swing and back health.  I was always under the impression that back injuries predominately comes from what bears the swing load post impact.  That made the most sense to me.  Personally I feel more stress in my left knee than I do my back.  I'm trying to simulate swings right now in my office how that would change with varying postures, LOL

Edited by dtrance, 12 February 2014 - 03:43 PM.


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#12 RichieHunt

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:17 PM

The spine isn't built to be 'flat' like so many golfers do today.  It's shaped in a 'S' form.  There's a ton more to it as to why the vintage players had superior address positions to the modern player.  But, this is as critical as any.






RH

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#13 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:31 PM

 RichieHunt, on 12 February 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

The spine isn't built to be 'flat' like so many golfers do today.  It's shaped in a 'S' form.  There's a ton more to it as to why the vintage players had superior address positions to the modern player.  But, this is as critical as any.






RH

"There's a ton more to it as to why the vintage players had superior address positions to the modern player."

Now, there's a mouthful!

Agreed.

I might add that I was born with scoliosis and have had a very productive athletic career in my youth.  I learned to make adjustments and not to do foolish things to risk injuring my already unstable back.  Sports made my back muscles strong enough to hold the curve and prevent further deformity.

Stand like the modern guys do? You couldn't make me.

To add a little levity, this would be a quote from Melvin Udall if he played golf:

"No, I'm not going to stand like that.  I'm also not going to let you inject me with the plague, either."



I couldn't resist...

Best,

DJ Watts

Edited by DJ Watts, 12 February 2014 - 04:31 PM.


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#14 Jonnybagadonuts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:43 PM

if only Hogan was here today. Throw a set of mizunos  in his hand and a 460cc driver..... He would walk allover todays pros like they were playing high school golf.

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#15 PingG10guy

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:56 PM

 Jonnybagadonuts, on 12 February 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

if only Hogan was here today. Throw a set of mizunos  in his hand and a 460cc driver..... He would walk allover todays pros like they were playing high school golf.

Going from Balata balls to todays stuff he wouldnt be able to get the ball in the air.  Tiger's talked about this before.


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#16 juststeve

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:33 PM

MDLT taught me to stand comfortably at the ball.  Harvey Penick told his students to stand up plain to the ball.  I think they were both on to something.

Steve

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#17 Donny G

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:34 PM

Leading Spine expert Stuart Mcgill has proved through his research that the safest position for the spine is neutral .

Any slouching increases the chance of Back problems .

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#18 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

 Donny G, on 12 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Leading Spine expert Stuart Mcgill has proved through his research that the safest position for the spine is neutral .

Any slouching increases the chance of Back problems .

Donny, if you'll forgive me, it isn't slouching.  It's following the natural curve of the spine.  The spine curves forward in the cervical portion, and that cervical part is where you see the "hump" at the top of the back when you let the arms hang relaxed and the upper back curve naturally, not holding it ram-rod straight.


That is the neutral shape to which McGill refers.  Straightening is is taking it out of neutral position, so I cannot help but agree with his statement.

Best,

DJ Watts

Posted Image

Edited by DJ Watts, 12 February 2014 - 05:43 PM.


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#19 PingG10guy

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:48 PM

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

 Donny G, on 12 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Leading Spine expert Stuart Mcgill has proved through his research that the safest position for the spine is neutral .

Any slouching increases the chance of Back problems .

Donny, if you'll forgive me, it isn't slouching.  It's following the natural curve of the spine.  The spine curves forward in the cervical portion, and that cervical part is where you see the "hump" at the top of the back when you let the arms hang relaxed and the upper back curve naturally, not holding it ram-rod straight.


That is the neutral shape to which McGill refers.  Straightening is is taking it out of neutral position, so I cannot help but agree with his statement.

Best,

DJ Watts

Posted Image

Snead/Nicklaus have their thoracic in flexion.  Otherwise they would walk around hunched over like that when walking upright.

The photos of modern posture are all in a neutral condition.  You cant be serious?

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#20 TLUBulldogGolf

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:52 PM

When you have your back straight you aren't straightening your spine, considering it's just a bent over position of standing straight up. Are you going to try and tell me I should walk slouched too to avoid injury to my back? The golf swing is far from a natural motion and puts a lot of strain on various parts of the body. I think the biggest problem is guys are able to swing very hard without a lot of muscle, such as Rory. I think since he has started working out he hasn't had issues. To me most injuries are either fluky or just happen from overuse doing something that is rather harsh on the body. I have the modern set up and have had no back issues, especially not since I've gotten in the gym. But I would need a lot more to prove which way was better for long term health.

Edited by TLUBulldogGolf, 12 February 2014 - 05:53 PM.

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#21 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:53 PM

 dtrance, on 12 February 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

 dtrance, on 12 February 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

The former greats definitely look slouchy by todays standards.  Is it really better for your back to slouch at address?  Conversely are the injuries to modern players really caused by "better" posture?  Personally I feel more active and athletic with my core engaged and my back relatively straight.  I don't think you see any modern athlete, golf or otherwise with bad posture.

I think to some degree equipment has changed the way golfers look at address, clubs are longer and more upright.  Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus would have a different look at address if they were fitted with modern equipment.

I would disagree, if the clubs are more upright, so much more reason to stand more upright than bent over - I'm 6'1" and use a 45" driver, and I stand more like Snead/Hogan/Nicklaus looking down the line.  44 years old, I can swing at over 120 mph and have never had a back or neck injury.

The reason the straight back is bad is because it puts all the stress and load of the down swing onto the lower back.  With a natural shape to the back, the load is borne more in the area of the back between the neck and where the armpits are.

Respectfully,

DJ Watts

Interesting topic and thanks for sharing.  I hope I am injury free like you when I get to your age!

I can't really quantify why I setup the way I do in terms of posture.  Conventional wisdom I suppose and thats its better to be in a athletic position.

To the instructors on this board, if you get a student looking like Snead at address, do you "correct" it?  If so why?

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

You can prove it to yourself quite easily - grab a backpack or something similar and put something weighty in it.  Now, stand in the modern golf stance and see how long you can hold it up, or if you can even keep your balance.

Then stand straight up so the bag's against your thighs and, keeping the weight over your feet, relax your upper back and shoulders and extend your buttock out slightly so the bag hangs again.

Which stance would you prefer to use to pull something rooted out of the ground with a good yank - Hogan's stance or Tiger's?

The old guys weren't all lazy - they just used a more correct posture for swinging and bearing loads during the swing itself.

Best,

DJ Watts

In this instance I think Hogans posture would provide better leverage.  However if I were doing squats at the gym, I'd be better served by Tiger's posture.  How does either action pertain to the efficiency of the golf swing and back health.  I was always under the impression that back injuries predominately comes from what bears the swing load post impact.  That made the most sense to me.  Personally I feel more stress in my left knee than I do my back.  I'm trying to simulate swings right now in my office how that would change with varying postures, LOL

dtrance: I agree with you on Hogan's posture being better, and that's because the weight is closer to the feet.  When you squat, the weight must remain above the feet.  Hogan's weight is not a proper squat stance, but the weight is much more over the feet than with a leaning-over-with-a-straightened-back stance.

If you look at Tiger's address stance again and imagine putting a barbell across the base of his neck at the gym - front heavy, it's just beyond his toe-line.  He'll tip over or the lower back, which is supporting a straightened spine, will go.

Best,

DJ Watts

Posted Image

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#22 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:55 PM

 PingG10guy, on 12 February 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

 Donny G, on 12 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Leading Spine expert Stuart Mcgill has proved through his research that the safest position for the spine is neutral .

Any slouching increases the chance of Back problems .

Donny, if you'll forgive me, it isn't slouching.  It's following the natural curve of the spine.  The spine curves forward in the cervical portion, and that cervical part is where you see the "hump" at the top of the back when you let the arms hang relaxed and the upper back curve naturally, not holding it ram-rod straight.


That is the neutral shape to which McGill refers.  Straightening is is taking it out of neutral position, so I cannot help but agree with his statement.

Best,

DJ Watts

Posted Image

Snead/Nicklaus have their thoracic in flexion.  Otherwise they would walk around hunched over like that when walking upright.

The photos of modern posture are all in a neutral condition.  You cant be serious?

I am, completely.  And there is nothing neutral about the modern stiff back position.  I'm serious about that, too.

Best,

DJ Watts

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#23 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:58 PM

 TLUBulldogGolf, on 12 February 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

When you have your back straight you aren't straightening your spine, considering it's just a bent over position of standing straight up. Are you going to try and tell me I should walk slouched too to avoid injury to my back? The golf swing is far from a natural motion and puts a lot of strain on various parts of the body. I think the biggest problem is guys are able to swing very hard without a lot of muscle, such as Rory. I think since he has started working out he hasn't had issues. To me most injuries are either fluky or just happen from overuse doing something that is rather harsh on the body. I have the modern set up and have had no back issues, especially not since I've gotten in the gym. But I would need a lot more to prove which way was better for long term health.

You're not walking slouched when you walk erect, but the spine is still curved in the S-shape.  It is definitely not straight, as you will have a "hollow" in your lower back.  The cervical spine portion angles slightly forward.  I'm not making it up, I assure you.

Notice the normal vs "flat-back" postures.

Now, take the normal posture, tilt it forward from the hips while extending the buttocks backward incrementally with a slight leg bend, and there is the classic address stance with the upper spine bend.

Respectfully,

DJ Watts

Posted Image

Edited by DJ Watts, 12 February 2014 - 06:00 PM.


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#24 PingG10guy

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 06:08 PM

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

 PingG10guy, on 12 February 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

 Donny G, on 12 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Leading Spine expert Stuart Mcgill has proved through his research that the safest position for the spine is neutral .

Any slouching increases the chance of Back problems .

Donny, if you'll forgive me, it isn't slouching.  It's following the natural curve of the spine.  The spine curves forward in the cervical portion, and that cervical part is where you see the "hump" at the top of the back when you let the arms hang relaxed and the upper back curve naturally, not holding it ram-rod straight.


That is the neutral shape to which McGill refers.  Straightening is is taking it out of neutral position, so I cannot help but agree with his statement.

Best,

DJ Watts

Posted Image

Snead/Nicklaus have their thoracic in flexion.  Otherwise they would walk around hunched over like that when walking upright.

The photos of modern posture are all in a neutral condition.  You cant be serious?

I am, completely.  And there is nothing neutral about the modern stiff back position.  I'm serious about that, too.

Best,

DJ Watts

...for snead and nicklaus they had to get rid of the thoracic flexion in the backswing anyways.  Modern photos you posted...on less move they need going back.  you are (should be) in extension at the top anyway.  As long as your foot pressures are decent; the more linear you make things the better it will be on your back.  I think most people load the hips wrong which can cause lower back issues, but the address posture isnt the cause in my opinion.  All of the back injuries Ive seen from golfers I know were extension/jump related, and caused by bad sequencing (bad load and release of the arms).

You think that thoracic flexion made snead and nicklaus hall of famers?  Im confused at the point of all this.  Are you strictly referring to back injuries?

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#25 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 06:20 PM

 PingG10guy, on 12 February 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

 PingG10guy, on 12 February 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

 Donny G, on 12 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Leading Spine expert Stuart Mcgill has proved through his research that the safest position for the spine is neutral .

Any slouching increases the chance of Back problems .

Donny, if you'll forgive me, it isn't slouching.  It's following the natural curve of the spine.  The spine curves forward in the cervical portion, and that cervical part is where you see the "hump" at the top of the back when you let the arms hang relaxed and the upper back curve naturally, not holding it ram-rod straight.


That is the neutral shape to which McGill refers.  Straightening is is taking it out of neutral position, so I cannot help but agree with his statement.

Best,

DJ Watts

Posted Image

Snead/Nicklaus have their thoracic in flexion.  Otherwise they would walk around hunched over like that when walking upright.

The photos of modern posture are all in a neutral condition.  You cant be serious?

I am, completely.  And there is nothing neutral about the modern stiff back position.  I'm serious about that, too.

Best,

DJ Watts

...for snead and nicklaus they had to get rid of the thoracic flexion in the backswing anyways.  Modern photos you posted...on less move they need going back.  you are (should be) in extension at the top anyway.  As long as your foot pressures are decent; the more linear you make things the better it will be on your back.  I think most people load the hips wrong which can cause lower back issues, but the address posture isnt the cause in my opinion.  All of the back injuries Ive seen from golfers I know were extension/jump related, and caused by bad sequencing (bad load and release of the arms).

You think that thoracic flexion made snead and nicklaus hall of famers?  Im confused at the point of all this.  Are you strictly referring to back injuries?

Being great golfers made those fellows Hall-of-Famers!  But the way they swung had a good part to do with it, I'm pretty sure.

My point was about risk of injury by altering the spine position when swinging, but I'll address your reference to excellence by pointing out that Sam Snead learned to hit a ball whacking stones with a stick, and Jack Nicklaus had basically the same swing his career that he grooved as a kid.

Now, if Tiger's and the modern swings are so much better, why are they all out on the range with swing coaches?  The ball hardly even curves anymore and they're wilder than ever.  Why is Tiger on his third coach as a pro and talking about "finally getting it?"

The better swing would be the one that is easiest to learn and maintain, and provide superior ball-striking.  I'd say Nicklaus and Snead didn't do too badly at scoring 3-3.

I'd have to give Tiger 1-3 at any point in his career.  He could produce superior ball-striking, but it was never with a swing that was easy to learn and maintain.

You must always separate the swing from the game.  You can be a great golfer with a lesser putting stroke, or golf swing, or overall short game.  Winning doesn't prove anything than you can get the ball in the hole.

The old guys had better swings, mechanically-speaking.  Even when the technique was loose, they swung freely.  The best of them, had great, great swings.  And they didn't swing the way it's taught today, for the most part.

That's all.

Best,

DJ Watts

Edited by DJ Watts, 12 February 2014 - 06:28 PM.


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#26 Hawkeye77

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:02 PM

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

 HitEmTrue, on 12 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

One of the things I see most often in today's or the modern swing is something you never saw in the "old" days.

If you want just one example of why the modern conventional golf swing is so hard on the lower back, you just have to compare stances of the greatest swingers against the best golfers today.

Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus were the longest players on Tour in their particular day, or very close to the longest for a long time, and yet they didn't break down.


Back problems for golfers aren't a new problem.  Nicklaus had back problems apparently?  Article from 1995:

http://www.nytimes.c...n-the-back.html

( edit )
Greg Norman, whom you mentioned, is also listed in that article as having a back injury from playing golf.

I might have said what I meant by "break down," meaning injuries at their youngest and healthiest - Rory has been injured already in his first couple of seasons, most of the better 20-somethings have experienced back and neck injuries - sorry if I wasn't clear on that, everyone risks injury as they age, but not in their early and mid-20's...

Cheers,

DJ Watts

Nicklaus suffered from a bad hip starting at age 23.

Your "most" in reference to today's players in there 20s is a gross overstatement.

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#27 trajectory

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:16 PM

Yup..........they swung "cocky"........watch Trevino, in his prime he was still stepping into his stance when he pulled the trigger. 1, 2, 3, bang!

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#28 DJ Watts

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:17 PM

 Hawkeye77, on 12 February 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

 HitEmTrue, on 12 February 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

 DJ Watts, on 12 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

One of the things I see most often in today's or the modern swing is something you never saw in the "old" days.

If you want just one example of why the modern conventional golf swing is so hard on the lower back, you just have to compare stances of the greatest swingers against the best golfers today.

Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus were the longest players on Tour in their particular day, or very close to the longest for a long time, and yet they didn't break down.


Back problems for golfers aren't a new problem.  Nicklaus had back problems apparently?  Article from 1995:

http://www.nytimes.c...n-the-back.html

( edit )
Greg Norman, whom you mentioned, is also listed in that article as having a back injury from playing golf.

I might have said what I meant by "break down," meaning injuries at their youngest and healthiest - Rory has been injured already in his first couple of seasons, most of the better 20-somethings have experienced back and neck injuries - sorry if I wasn't clear on that, everyone risks injury as they age, but not in their early and mid-20's...

Cheers,

DJ Watts

Nicklaus suffered from a bad hip starting at age 23.

Your "most" in reference to today's players in there 20s is a gross overstatement.

Nicklaus' bad hip didn't come from his spine posture, to be sure.  If anything, it came from repeated hyper-extension of the joint coming through impact to the finish.  His only real flaw(s) was that he didn't shift his weight to the right during his back swing (nearly a reverse-pivot) trying to maintain a center head position, which combined with the needed aggressive leg action to the left with a squarish leading foot position, gave you that extended hip position at the finish.

Posted Image

That impact position and finish came from his back swing action and leading foot angle, if he'd shifted into his right pocket on the back swing and had more angle to his left foot, he'd have been fine.

PS - Nicklaus played until his mid-50's before hip replacement surgery after winning 18 majors over 25 years or so.  If that's "breaking down," I think Tiger would take that deal.


Best,

DJ Watts

Edited by DJ Watts, 12 February 2014 - 07:21 PM.


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#29 Hawkeye77

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:35 PM

Do your homework. Nicklaus' hip was an issue for him on and off throughout his career. If you are cherry picking 20 somethings from days gone by to support your premise, one of your few examples isn't valid. Also, his back issues came from stress as a result of the reverse C (or how he got there) something many who emulated that suffered through as well.

No point in a faulty diagnosis of his hip problem looking at pictures.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 12 February 2014 - 07:37 PM.


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#30 TB07

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:45 PM

The spine is curved like an S you are correct. Nicklaus and Snead have added more curve. They are more in flexion than neutral (neutral meaning the normal amount of curve). Hinging from the hips as the modern swings you posted keeps the spine curved (curved like an S the natural amount). This is the safest and less injury prone position.


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