[villa]

In June 07's GolfPunk, they had an article on what would it be like if Tiger never existed. It was (as always) quite funny, but mainly based on what other players would've achieved.

However, I obviously didn't read it as thoroughly as I usually do because in this months copy (July 07), there's a 'right to reply' from Bob Wood - Vice President of U.S Marketing for Nike. He was replying to an article made in last months magazine by Dr. Benoit Vincent - Vice President of Taylor Made.

Obviously, I had to find last months copy to see why he felt the need to reply in the first place. I can't find the whole article online so i'll post some of the quotes from Dr. Vincent which I think are relevant.

"If Nike didn't have Tiger Woods, their clubs wouldn't have been seen as credible to the mass-market."

"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. Tiger was very close to putting our driver into play when we launched the r7 Quad. He was hitting it further but was discouraged by Nike, which I can totally understand given the kind of money they pay him. We constantly test other equipment and ours always has a higher ball speed than the Nike product. Every mile per hour is an extra two-and-a-half yards of distance. Our drivers test up to five miles an hour more, which soon adds up in yardage. That's why I allow myself to be so bold. This isn't an opinion, this is fact."

Here's the relevevant quotes from Bob Wood's right to reply.

"As far as the assertion that Nike Golf's drivers are "slower" than our competitors are: if that were true we would simply not sell any drivers."

"Dr. Vincent's column is an example of the "we know best" arrogance that is all too much a part of the mentality of several large companies in our industry. That attitude is a competitive advantage for Nike Golf, and we hope they continue with it into the future."

Both sides seem a bit childish to me. Is this how multi-billion dollar companies are run?

Either way, I found it interesting that at no point did Bob Wood deny the story about Tiger potentially teeing up an r7 Quad. That is something I didn't know previously.

Can I add that I have no loyalty to either company and haven't manipulated these quotes in any way. Just found the whole thing quite interesting so I thought i'd share it.

[DCDeac]

Both sides seem childish? Nike's response is perfectly fine. Taylormade's is a complete joke. "No question" that Tiger would probably get "maybe 20 yards" of distance? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

It's amazing how well all the Nike staffers keep playing with such distance-robbing equipment!

[villa]

True, let me add this one from Bob Wood.

"In writing his column, Dr. Vincent has now joined most of the other manufacturers in asserting that if Tiger played with their equipment he'd somehow be better off. Sounds to us like so much sour grapes. Not only has Tiger won over 30 tournaments and 7 majors since switching to Nike Golf equipment, but over 20% of the top 50 players in the world use our products. And while the truth may hurt, Nike Golf had more wins on the PGA Tour last year than Taylor Made or anyone else, with 9 different players winning 16 times. And they tee up more people each week than we do. Quality over quantity."

Maybe childish was the wrong way for me to describe both sides. The 'digs' just don't seem very professional to me but that's just opinion. Again, i'm just posting the info. Don't have any favouritism.

[dpwrx]

Big business, it would seem, is not above such backbiting when millions of dollars and investors' perception is at stake.

As for the "almost switched to TaylorMade" comment, it was common knowledge that Tiger was trying almost any driver under the sun while Nike tried to come up with something more viable than its 1st generation of driver (the Forged series), which were universally panned.
But the R7 quad launch was almost four years ago.

Talk about hanging your hat on old news, and an "almost" at that.

[villa]

dpwrx, on Jun 11 2007, 02:28 PM, said:

Big business, it would seem, is not above such backbiting when millions of dollars and investors' perception is at stake.

That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Very interesting to read, but it almost looks as if Taylor Made were trying to provoke a response.

[QuantumP7]

villa, on Jun 11 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. Tiger was very close to putting our driver into play when we launched the r7 Quad. He was hitting it further but was discouraged by Nike, which I can totally understand given the kind of money they pay him. We constantly test other equipment and ours always has a higher ball speed than the Nike product. Every mile per hour is an extra two-and-a-half yards of distance. Our drivers test up to five miles an hour more, which soon adds up in yardage. That's why I allow myself to be so bold. This isn't an opinion, this is fact." [/b]

Youch!!

Sounds like someone's jealous to me. There wasn't any need to say that.

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

Stupid Atlantic Ocean!

Charlie want GolfPunk!

[villa]

QuantumP7, on Jun 11 2007, 02:41 PM, said:

Youch!!

Sounds like someone's jealous to me. There wasn't any need to say that.

Why should they be jealous, they've got Sergio

[villa]

Charlie_Foxtrot, on Jun 11 2007, 02:45 PM, said:

Stupid Atlantic Ocean!

Charlie want GolfPunk!

You can stick with Golf Magazine (can you imagine the board meeting when they came up with that name).

[dpwrx]

Charlie_Foxtrot, on Jun 11 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

Stupid Atlantic Ocean!

Charlie want GolfPunk!

Most Barnes & Noble locations carry it (as well as a couple of other UK/Europe golf pubs).

[Charlie_Foxtrot]

dpwrx, on Jun 11 2007, 01:02 PM, said:

Charlie_Foxtrot, on Jun 11 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

Stupid Atlantic Ocean!

Charlie want GolfPunk!

Most Barnes & Noble locations carry it (as well as a couple of other UK/Europe golf pubs).

$10 per issue, and its usually an issue behind. (The last one I could find was the Poulter cover.)

[QuantumP7]

villa, on Jun 11 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

QuantumP7, on Jun 11 2007, 02:41 PM, said:

Youch!!

Sounds like someone's jealous to me. There wasn't any need to say that.

Why should they be jealous, they've got Sergio

Well then why would they need to write something like that? I know that letter steered me away from buying Taylor products.

[villa]

O.k before I go, i'll post a couple more quotes from both sides.

The original article was of course about Tiger and if he hadn't existed so Dr. Vincent of Taylor Made was there to give an insight into whether he's had an influence on equipment.

Again, not taking any sides. These are the quotes as they're written.

Dr. Benoit Vincent - Taylor Made:
"The golf equipment we produce today would be exactly the same. I would make the bold statement that there is no correlation between Tiger Woods and the work the engineers in all the R&D facilities around the world are doing. We have 100-plus engineers trying to push performance to the next level. We have never had a request from a player saying can you make me longer than Tiger Woods. I don't think we worry or care about the results of Tiger Woods, the only thing that drives us is the desire to push the performance of our product to the next level."

Bob Wood - Nike Golf:
"To assert that Tiger has had no impact on the development of golf equipment over the years is a chauvenistic statement that borders on ignorance. There is a simple, tangible example of his influence, among many others, that illustrates this point.

In 2000, Tiger switched from using what was the ball of choice for most professionals at the time, the Titleist Professional, to the Nike Tour Accuracy. He subsequently won the US Open at Pebble Beach by 15 strokes and reeled off 3 more majors in a row. The Titleist ball was a wound ball, the Tour Accuracy was a solid core, multi layer ball. Within 9 months, the wound ball was a thing of the past, and all the manufacturers were marketing solid core balls. Tiger's switch and his resulting domination created an earthquake within the industry. He was the catalyst for a fundamental change in a $1.5 billion worldwide industry. That's a real impact."

[bloodredsun]

I suppose there's no such thing as bad publicity!

[villa]

QuantumP7, on Jun 11 2007, 03:23 PM, said:

villa, on Jun 11 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

QuantumP7, on Jun 11 2007, 02:41 PM, said:

Youch!!

Sounds like someone's jealous to me. There wasn't any need to say that.

Why should they be jealous, they've got Sergio

Well then why would they need to write something like that? I know that letter steered me away from buying Taylor products.

The Sergio thing was a joke mate. As for not buying Taylor Made Products, judge it as you wish.
I'm genuinely impartial, just posting all this because I found it very interesting.

[QuantumP7]

villa, on Jun 11 2007, 03:32 PM, said:

QuantumP7, on Jun 11 2007, 03:23 PM, said:

villa, on Jun 11 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

QuantumP7, on Jun 11 2007, 02:41 PM, said:

Youch!!

Sounds like someone's jealous to me. There wasn't any need to say that.

Why should they be jealous, they've got Sergio

Well then why would they need to write something like that? I know that letter steered me away from buying Taylor products.

The Sergio thing was a joke mate. As for not buying Taylor Made Products, judge it as you wish.
I'm genuinely impartial, just posting all this because I found it very interesting.

I don't blame you. It really is very interesting.

[golfernut78]

dpwrx, on Jun 11 2007, 02:28 PM, said:

Big business, it would seem, is not above such backbiting when millions of dollars and investors' perception is at stake.

As for the "almost switched to TaylorMade" comment, it was common knowledge that Tiger was trying almost any driver under the sun while Nike tried to come up with something more viable than its 1st generation of driver (the Forged series), which were universally panned.
But the R7 quad launch was almost four years ago.

Talk about hanging your hat on old news, and an "almost" at that.

i thought it was a 510tp that tiger tried - and i believe used in a european event - when he spent about half a year trying different drivers between dropping the 975D and finally settling on the ignite 460. i believe he had a couple of different drivers in there including a ignite 340 and ignite 410.

[mfo]

I don't understand how anyone can claim that one head is longer than another when all drivers are designed to meet the .830 COR limit imposed by the USGA and the R & A. Does anyone have information to the contrary?

[NikeTaylormade891]

mfo, on Jun 11 2007, 08:32 PM, said:

I don't understand how anyone can claim that one head is longer than another when all drivers are designed to meet the .830 COR limit imposed by the USGA and the R & A. Does anyone have information to the contrary?

yeah it's stupid

I think TM is mad that they aren't the most innovative right now

[nikemike]

mfo, on Jun 11 2007, 09:32 PM, said:

I don't understand how anyone can claim that one head is longer than another when all drivers are designed to meet the .830 COR limit imposed by the USGA and the R & A. Does anyone have information to the contrary?

Exactly. Launch angle and spin will also decide distance, but COR is directly related to ball speed. So the 5mph more is utter bs.

One person is spouting "what if" information and the other is providing facts. TM makes good products, no doubt. I'll go as far to say some of the best in the industry. BUT, the attitudes displayed by the good "Dr" and that of unmentionable members at a certain website have completely turned me away from even considering TM products. Perhaps this is even at my own loss, but I have a bad mental correlation between these attitudes and TM.

Perhaps the tide is turning and Mr Vincent recognizes it and is using a "belittling" tactic as a mental block.
I hope TM continues to produces innovative products, it pushes other companies to do the same, which is overall great for the consumer. But all top dogs grow old and there will be a new king of the hill eventually.

[DCDeac]

Never forget, Taylormade Math:

I used to hit the 200 Steel about 260. So according to their marketing:

200 Steel to 300/320ti/300 tour: 15 yards (275)

300 to R580: 15 yards (290)

R580 to R510TP: 15 yards (305)

R510TP to R7 Quad: 15 yards (320)

R7 Quad to R7 Quad 425: 10 yards (330)

R7 Quad 425 to SuperQuad: 10 yards (340)

And that is why I'm now leading the PGA Tour in average driving distance by 30 yards...

[golfernut78]

DCDeac, on Jun 12 2007, 11:14 AM, said:

Never forget, Taylormade Math:

I used to hit the 200 Steel about 260. So according to their marketing:

200 Steel to 300/320ti/300 tour: 15 yards (275)

300 to R580: 15 yards (290)

R580 to R510TP: 15 yards (305)

R510TP to R7 Quad: 15 yards (320)

R7 Quad to R7 Quad 425: 10 yards (330)

R7 Quad 425 to SuperQuad: 10 yards (340)

And that is why I'm now leading the PGA Tour in average driving distance by 30 yards...

you need to get a burner - your missing out on 7 more yards.

[DCDeac]

You know, I almost threw the burner in there but decided, to be fair, the current advertisements do have the R7 Super TP and the Burner TP BOTH listed as their longest drivers ever.

If you're a TM fan I'm just kidding around. Marketing is funny sometimes though...

[mcputter]

DCDeac, on Jun 12 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

You know, I almost threw the burner in there but decided, to be fair, the current advertisements do have the R7 Super TP and the Burner TP BOTH listed as their longest drivers ever.

If you're a TM fan I'm just kidding around. Marketing is funny sometimes though...

You forgot your 10 yards in switching to the TP ball too. I like TM products but there's no question about their arrogance.

[villa]

O.k, i've got two more quotes from the article. These quotes don't have anything to do with each other, there just the last two that I found interesting.

Another point on whether Tiger Woods has had an impact on equipment.
Dr. Benoit Vincent - Taylor Made:
"Tiger has been playing modern equipment from the off. When we tested him on the launch monitor in '96 at Taylormade, we gave him product that could launch it high with low spin. I don't think Tiger has affected the evolution of equipment, I think he has benefited from it. When Ernie switched to Titleist from our equipment in 2003, he changed from a 43.5-inch steel shaft, and switched to a 45-inch graphite shaft. The increase in distance was put down to his Pro V1, but the big difference was the additional velocity created from the shaft length".

Response from Bob Wood to a quote by Dr. Vincent that Tiger Woods only plays Nike equipment because they pay him a lot of money.
Bob Wood - Nike Golf:
"O.k, let's get one thing out of the way right away: Tiger Woods does get paid a lot of money by Nike Golf. Here's another startling revelation: all other top pros get paid a lot of money by their equipment companies, too! And in the world of professional golf, where all the top players make good endorsment money, who would you rather have. Tiger or anyone else in the Top 10? I thought so".

[golfernut78]

DCDeac, on Jun 12 2007, 12:36 PM, said:

You know, I almost threw the burner in there but decided, to be fair, the current advertisements do have the R7 Super TP and the Burner TP BOTH listed as their longest drivers ever.

If you're a TM fan I'm just kidding around. Marketing is funny sometimes though...

its not just TM though. if you go based on what most companies have said about there drivers over the last 5-10 years we should all be leadin the pga in distance.

[sergizmo]

A lot of sour grapes on Taylor Made's part.

The only thing they cling to in the pro game is "Most played on tour." How many wins are TM players racking up? Not too many. You'd think that with 1/2 the tour signed, TM players would win often. Nike players have had a lot more wins in '06 and '07, even if you leave out Tiger.

It's true that when Nike Golf started, they pretty much needed Tiger to have any sort of credibility. But with the products improving all the time and with all the tour wins from so many different players, that is certainly no longer the case.

Taylor Made better wake up to the reality that this is no longer 2002-03. Times have changed, a lot.

[boomgoesthedynamite]

This Dr. Vincent guy seems to contradict himself:

"I don't think we worry or care about the results of Tiger Woods, the only thing that drives us is the desire to push the performance of our product to the next level."

"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. Tiger was very close to putting our driver into play when we launched the r7 Quad."

[Huskypride28]

"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. Tiger was very close to putting our driver into play when we launched the r7 Quad."

My question to this response is, it is a very well known and documented fact that Tiger's contract with Nike has a clause in it that allows him to play any piece of equipment that he wants Nike or otherwise, so if this comment is true, then why didn't he put the R7 Quad in his bag then?

[thorsness]

Dr. Vincent
"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. "

HAHAHA, what a tool.

[Woodywatcher]

villa, on Jun 12 2007, 07:14 PM, said:

O.k, i've got two more quotes from the article. These quotes don't have anything to do with each other, there just the last two that I found interesting.

Another point on whether Tiger Woods has had an impact on equipment.
Dr. Benoit Vincent - Taylor Made:
"Tiger has been playing modern equipment from the off. When we tested him on the launch monitor in '96 at Taylormade, we gave him product that could launch it high with low spin. I don't think Tiger has affected the evolution of equipment, I think he has benefited from it. When Ernie switched to Titleist from our equipment in 2003, he changed from a 43.5-inch steel shaft, and switched to a 45-inch graphite shaft. The increase in distance was put down to his Pro V1, but the big difference was the additional velocity created from the shaft length".

Response from Bob Wood to a quote by Dr. Vincent that Tiger Woods only plays Nike equipment because they pay him a lot of money.
Bob Wood - Nike Golf:
"O.k, let's get one thing out of the way right away: Tiger Woods does get paid a lot of money by Nike Golf. Here's another startling revelation: all other top pros get paid a lot of money by their equipment companies, too! And in the world of professional golf, where all the top players make good endorsment money, who would you rather have. Tiger or anyone else in the Top 10? I thought so".

Fantastic! Stick that in your pipe and smoke it my good doctor!

[bjrapper]

thorsness, on Jun 12 2007, 10:39 PM, said:

Dr. Vincent
"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. "

HAHAHA, what a tool.

Bottom line, Tiger's leaving yards on the table Imagine what he could do with a phone fitting.

[sigmamason]

I don't think that was Dr. Vincent...might have been someone else maybe his screen name

In all seriousness, this will get big play by a few websites and that is it. Some people that blindly follow certain companies, websites or people will swallow this up, and others will be miffed at the arrogance.

I say give them some boxing gloves and let them go for it...throw Wally in the ring also...good old three-way bar brawl...

[birdieparma]

Of course Nike discouraged Tiger from teeing up a Taylor Made Driver. They would be insane not to. However, is Taylor Made forgetting that Tiger, according to his contract, is able to play any clubs he sees fit?

Tiger played a Titleist driver the year that the R7 came out. What Taylor Made should really be worried about is the fact that they are starting to chase other companies technology. The R7 draw was nothing more than their version of Callaway Fusion technology and anyone who tries to claim that the Burner Driver wasn't based on the original Nike SQ Driver is lying both to you and themselves.

Also, if Nike was going to do a response to Taylor Made nearly as childish as Taylor Made's original response it would have gone something like this:

"Tiger is always looking to improve his game and his equipment. We at Nike Golf know that Tiger is always focused on winning majors and we are sure that his decision to stay away from Taylor Made equipment has everything to do with their complete irrelevance in Major Championship victories over the past few years."

[Baller]

What truely should be noted here is that neither company really has any regard for the consumer who actually puts the coins in their pockets, which is us. Now I know that the debate was a question and reply session for what would the industry be like if Tiger never existed, but it turned into how TW represents Nike so take that and Taylormades apparent disappointment that he chose to do so. I wanted to hear how they are trying to improve their product so I can play golf better, to hell with helping TW shoot 59 and make another 100 Mil. What about me Jive Turkeys!


That is why I switched to Ping Irons and testing the FT-5 LCD now!

[preston08]

thorsness, on Jun 12 2007, 09:39 PM, said:

Dr. Vincent
"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. "

HAHAHA, what a tool.

So what? By not using the Hammer he's missing out on 50 yards.

[TheHomez]

preston08, on Jun 26 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

thorsness, on Jun 12 2007, 09:39 PM, said:

Dr. Vincent
"There is no question that Tiger would hit the ball further if he used one of our drivers - easily 10 yards, probably closer to 20. "

HAHAHA, what a tool.

So what? By not using the Hammer he's missing out on 50 yards.

LMAO!!! That was hilarous.


PPPPOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!

[Konrad]

So the Nike Sumo2 is a hot club, imagine how freaking over the TaylorMade drivers are! They must be like a .930 COR!

It's official, I'm going tomorrow to buy a T-Made driver. They don't know that they're so much hotter yet than the rest!! Shh... keep it on the down low.



This is why I hate TaylorMade. They're just marketing hoes, saying or coming out with anything to make a quick buck on the consumer. Pitiful

[joesgonegolfing]

Way too much Taylormade bashing going on here. For the record you could not give me a club that Nike makes (that I would not sell ASAP for the cash) that I would play over any offering from Callaway, Titleist or Taylormade. I'd probably put Bridgestone and some others on that list also over the Nike product.

Bottom line is, whatever Tiger plays with he will win. Is he a market force? Most definitely. Major companies fighting over him...priceless.

Will Tiger stay with Nike forever? Most of these guys have changed at one point or another.

Joe

[ezra76]

Konrad, on Jun 28 2007, 08:46 PM, said:

This is why I hate TaylorMade. They're just marketing hoes, saying or coming out with anything to make a quick buck on the consumer. Pitiful

I hate to break it to you buddy but they are all marketing hoes.

I'd love to see the breakdown. I will guaruntee that Nike and Taylor spend more on thier Marketing budget than R&D and every single penny of production cost, including everything from wages to the electric bill at the factory. I'll go out on a limb and say Marketing budget for both is 100 times what R&D is.