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In some of the courses we play, being reclaimed jungle, we have monkeys and not only do they actually take our clubs away from our carts, but there have been occasions where they take our balls!
We had a little ruling problem: A monkey chases after a tee shot rolling on the fairway into the rough, picks it up and we gave chase to it, yelling and wishing we had a ruger to shoot that little bugger...he scampers away and leaves the ball on the fringe of the green...
1) I think the ball should be replaced on the rough where we roughly think it will land if that stupid monkey hadnt intervened
2) Another flight mate suggested that we dont know for sure where the ball would end up hence it can be placed back in the fairway at the estimated distance of the tee shot..it could bounce off a tree and land back on the fairway....
3) Another guy suggested we head back to the tee and tee it up again (not possible since the other flight was already waiting at the tee)
4) The owner of the tee shot obviously suggested we should play as it lies and the monkey was considered an outside agency, so like how Tiger gets his break when his tee shot hits the spectator and bounce back on the fairway, he should get a break as well. His argument was the ball hasnt stopped and was still rolling when the monkey picked it up, so essentially, he drove 350 yards.
How do we rule this?
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Monkey Rule - Outside agency?
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#1
Posted 27 May 2007 - 10:47 PM
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#2
Posted 28 May 2007 - 01:20 AM
hahaha, i'd like to hear the responses to this one. whatever it is, it's gotta be the best local rule evah!!!
reminds me of the golf ball stealing fox on that course out in Colorado or somewhere...there was a news video of it posted here a while back with actual footage of the fox stealing balls.
fwiw, i'd be all for the "outside agency" rule to play it as it lies as long as it was my ball or i didn't have a ton of $$ riding on that hole.
where do you live that you have monkeys on your courses? i'm guessing southeast asia maybe???
reminds me of the golf ball stealing fox on that course out in Colorado or somewhere...there was a news video of it posted here a while back with actual footage of the fox stealing balls.
fwiw, i'd be all for the "outside agency" rule to play it as it lies as long as it was my ball or i didn't have a ton of $$ riding on that hole.
where do you live that you have monkeys on your courses? i'm guessing southeast asia maybe???
#3 Gallery_mjtoal_*
Posted 28 May 2007 - 01:36 AM
It depends whether the ball was moving or had come to rest. If it had come to rest, redrop at best estimate of position, no penalty.
If it was moving fast enough that it is not really possible to accurately determine the likely finishing position of the ball, and hence where to drop, you need to replay the shot with no penalty. If the ball was just trickling to a stop, it should be possible to fairly estimate the position.
If the rules require you to replay, the fact that another group is on the tee is irrelevant. You either need to let that group through or crave their indulgence to replay.
If it was moving fast enough that it is not really possible to accurately determine the likely finishing position of the ball, and hence where to drop, you need to replay the shot with no penalty. If the ball was just trickling to a stop, it should be possible to fairly estimate the position.
If the rules require you to replay, the fact that another group is on the tee is irrelevant. You either need to let that group through or crave their indulgence to replay.
#4
Posted 28 May 2007 - 03:27 AM
The mental image of the scene you described is just surreal!
Where are you Stevie?
Where are you Stevie?
#5
Posted 28 May 2007 - 12:51 PM
Yep, Southeast asia, in Malaysia. It's common actually to have monkeys on some of the course, and i'm gonna take a picture of the sign that says "Beware of Monkeys stealing clubs!"
I'd go with mjtoal's suggestion. Yes it was moving, but it was rolling to a stop and we could estimate where it would have landed. But of course due to the crazyness of the situation, we allowed him to play as it lies and he could only get par anyways =)
I'd go with mjtoal's suggestion. Yes it was moving, but it was rolling to a stop and we could estimate where it would have landed. But of course due to the crazyness of the situation, we allowed him to play as it lies and he could only get par anyways =)
#6
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Posted 28 May 2007 - 01:19 PM
I think the only thing that i would say in that situation is...."Oh my God! A monkey just took my ball!" other than that i think it was an experience in itself and replace it in the rough.
Can i come play golf where the monkeys live?
Can i come play golf where the monkeys live?
#7
Posted 28 May 2007 - 01:49 PM
stevieheong, on May 28 2007, 10:51 AM, said:
and i'm gonna take a picture of the sign that says "Beware of Monkeys stealing clubs!"
Dude, that photo is manadatory!!!
#8
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Posted 28 May 2007 - 02:20 PM
If the ball was in motion and was deflected or stopped by an outside agency then it is played as it lies per rule 19-1. It doesn't matter is it was "rolling to a stop" (aren't all balls in motion "rolling to a stop"). If the ball had come to rest before being disturbed, it is replaced as near as possible to the point where it has stopped without penalty per rule 18-1.
Sometimes the rules work for you, sometimes against you. In your case, not only is it a hell of a story, it is also a 350 yard drive for your partner.
Sometimes the rules work for you, sometimes against you. In your case, not only is it a hell of a story, it is also a 350 yard drive for your partner.
#9
Posted 28 May 2007 - 03:10 PM
HeadonaStick, on May 28 2007, 12:20 PM, said:
If the ball was in motion and was deflected or stopped by an outside agency then it is played as it lies per rule 19-1. It doesn't matter is it was "rolling to a stop" (aren't all balls in motion "rolling to a stop"). If the ball had come to rest before being disturbed, it is replaced as near as possible to the point where it has stopped without penalty per rule 18-1.
Sometimes the rules work for you, sometimes against you. In your case, not only is it a hell of a story, it is also a 350 yard drive for your partner.
Sometimes the rules work for you, sometimes against you. In your case, not only is it a hell of a story, it is also a 350 yard drive for your partner.
Are you sure about that? <--- not sarcasm.
The monkey actually picked up the ball, right? It didn't stop or deflect it.
(I think this is my favorite rules discussion ever.)
Quote
19-1 By Outside Agency
If a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies except:
(a) If a ball in motion after a stroke other than on the putting green comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the player must, through the green or in a hazard, drop the ball, or on the putting green place the ball, as near as possible to the spot where the outside agency was when the ball came to rest in or on it, and
(b) If a ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency except a worm or an insect, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and the stroke replayed. If the ball is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
(Player’s ball deflected or stopped by another ball �" see Rule 19-5.)
Note: If the referee or the Committee determines that a player’s ball has been purposely deflected or stopped by an outside agency, Rule 1-4 applies to the player. If the outside agency is a fellow-competitor or his caddie, Rule 1-2 applies to the fellow-competitor.
If a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies except:
(a) If a ball in motion after a stroke other than on the putting green comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the player must, through the green or in a hazard, drop the ball, or on the putting green place the ball, as near as possible to the spot where the outside agency was when the ball came to rest in or on it, and
(b) If a ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency except a worm or an insect, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and the stroke replayed. If the ball is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
(Player’s ball deflected or stopped by another ball �" see Rule 19-5.)
Note: If the referee or the Committee determines that a player’s ball has been purposely deflected or stopped by an outside agency, Rule 1-4 applies to the player. If the outside agency is a fellow-competitor or his caddie, Rule 1-2 applies to the fellow-competitor.
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19-1/6 Ball Picked Up or Deflected by Dog on Putting Green After Stroke from Off Green
Q. A ball played from off the green was about a foot from the hole and still in motion when it was moved by a dog to a spot about 10 feet from the hole. The ball was either deflected by the dog or the dog picked it up, ran with it and dropped it. What is the ruling?
A. If the ball was deflected, it would be played as it lay, without penalty, from the spot to which it was moved by the dog - Rule 19-1.
If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the original ball was when the dog picked it up - Rule 19-1a.
Q. A ball played from off the green was about a foot from the hole and still in motion when it was moved by a dog to a spot about 10 feet from the hole. The ball was either deflected by the dog or the dog picked it up, ran with it and dropped it. What is the ruling?
A. If the ball was deflected, it would be played as it lay, without penalty, from the spot to which it was moved by the dog - Rule 19-1.
If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the original ball was when the dog picked it up - Rule 19-1a.
I know this decision is "on the green", but I would think it would apply, wouldn't it? (Except the player would drop instead of place.)
#10
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Posted 28 May 2007 - 03:29 PM
Charlie_Foxtrot, on May 28 2007, 04:10 PM, said:
HeadonaStick, on May 28 2007, 12:20 PM, said:
If the ball was in motion and was deflected or stopped by an outside agency then it is played as it lies per rule 19-1. It doesn't matter is it was "rolling to a stop" (aren't all balls in motion "rolling to a stop"). If the ball had come to rest before being disturbed, it is replaced as near as possible to the point where it has stopped without penalty per rule 18-1.
Sometimes the rules work for you, sometimes against you. In your case, not only is it a hell of a story, it is also a 350 yard drive for your partner.
Sometimes the rules work for you, sometimes against you. In your case, not only is it a hell of a story, it is also a 350 yard drive for your partner.
Are you sure about that? <--- not sarcasm.
The monkey actually picked up the ball, right? It didn't stop or deflect it.
(I think this is my favorite rules discussion ever.)
Quote
19-1/6 Ball Picked Up or Deflected by Dog on Putting Green After Stroke from Off Green
Q. A ball played from off the green was about a foot from the hole and still in motion when it was moved by a dog to a spot about 10 feet from the hole. The ball was either deflected by the dog or the dog picked it up, ran with it and dropped it. What is the ruling?
A. If the ball was deflected, it would be played as it lay, without penalty, from the spot to which it was moved by the dog — Rule 19-1.
If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the original ball was when the dog picked it up — Rule 19-1a.
Q. A ball played from off the green was about a foot from the hole and still in motion when it was moved by a dog to a spot about 10 feet from the hole. The ball was either deflected by the dog or the dog picked it up, ran with it and dropped it. What is the ruling?
A. If the ball was deflected, it would be played as it lay, without penalty, from the spot to which it was moved by the dog — Rule 19-1.
If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the original ball was when the dog picked it up — Rule 19-1a.
I know this decision is "on the green", but I would think it would apply, wouldn't it?
Well, I don't pretend to be a rules expert, but "deflect' has a number of definitions, and picking up an object in motion can be considered a deflection.
However, the ruling you quoted is interesting. Rule 19-1a states that if the ball "comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the player must, through the green or in a hazard, drop the ball, or on the putting green place the ball, as near as possible to the spot where the outside agency was when the ball came to rest in or on it." I didn't interpret that as quite the same as being picked up while in motion.
#11
Posted 28 May 2007 - 04:18 PM
Thats got to be a sight to see the monkey take clubs, maybe he has a lesson.
#12
Posted 28 May 2007 - 06:52 PM
HeadonaStick, on May 28 2007, 01:29 PM, said:
Well, I don't pretend to be a rules expert, but "deflect' has a number of definitions, and picking up an object in motion can be considered a deflection.
However, the ruling you quoted is interesting. Rule 19-1a states that if the ball "comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the player must, through the green or in a hazard, drop the ball, or on the putting green place the ball, as near as possible to the spot where the outside agency was when the ball came to rest in or on it." I didn't interpret that as quite the same as being picked up while in motion.
However, the ruling you quoted is interesting. Rule 19-1a states that if the ball "comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the player must, through the green or in a hazard, drop the ball, or on the putting green place the ball, as near as possible to the spot where the outside agency was when the ball came to rest in or on it." I didn't interpret that as quite the same as being picked up while in motion.
Trust me, you are more of an expert than me. I have to look up everything, every single time.
I wouldn't have thought Rule 19-1 applied either except for the rules decision 19-1/6 about the dog.
#13
Posted 29 May 2007 - 04:39 AM
Wow, i didnt even realise the dog rule existed....and yeah, I'm trying to arrange another game at the course and will take a picture of it. This is not only common, but we have another course that has a sign: Crocodiles are integral part of the course. I heard a story some guy got attacked by a croc because he wanted to play the ball from the hazard. Not sure whether it was a myth...but I believe golfers are the only type of people who would play their ball as it lies...irregardless of crocodiles or sharks.....
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