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Leading with the right elbow


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#61 miguelgolf

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:12 PM

Starting to do 2 things in transition and DS is very hard to do considering its so fast. Even Nicklaus says he just thinks of 2 things. Hogan says he thinks about just 2 things, and one at a time, in sequence.

JUST leading with lower body won't do it IMO. It's gotta start to be done way before.


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#62 flipmode

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:12 AM

I havent played in a month but I went out yesterday with this one thought in mind. Finished with an 84 (best round of the year) at a course I havent played in 4 years. Thanks Monte!
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#63 demclimber

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:01 AM

Glad that thought worked for you flip, though you must have been doing other things right for it to have worked. Monte said earlier in this thread it would probably take months of practicing this before it clicked, and for most of us it would hurt before it helped. Out of curiosity, what swing issues were you having before you used this feel?

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#64 MizunoLaxer40

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:07 AM

I haven't gotten to try this feel yet with school just starting, but I have a feel it's going to really help me if I stick with it. I get extremely steep, deep divots, and suffer from the shanks more than anyone ever should. the thought that's helped me on my best days on the course is keeping the club head from ever passing the handle through impact, problem being all of the problems monte mentions in his videos. hope this ends up being "the one".
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#65 flipmode

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:12 AM

I had a tendency to come steep, pull the butt of the club at the ball. I took a lesson from Monte that addressed other issues (which helped greatly). Unfortunately, other factors have prevented me from taking more lessons ie. kid, sequestration, school... but thats for another thread lol  I have been working on Monte's teachings this past year so maybe this "feeling" just pulled everything together.

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#66 demclimber

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:23 AM

The lessons with Monte were probably the part I was missing from the story. Glad the right elbow piece made it all come together for you.

I hear you on sequestration (although furloughs could potentially give you more time to practice).

I want to take lessons from Monte (probably limited to online, unless he makes that rumored Mid-Atlantic trip), but am facing impending fatherhood as well, so it might be better to wait until that has settled down a bit so I don't have a big break in practicing. Got to improve my swing so the kid can have a good swing model and get that golf scholarship in 18 years, right?

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#67 CheckJV

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:14 AM

 MonteScheinblum, on 06 September 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

 miguelgolf, on 06 September 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

But how do we do it?

Like anything else, you start on 20-30 yard wedges and MAKE AN EFFORT ON EVERY SWING.

A week...nothing.  A month, a slight gain.  6 months, you're shallow and somehow shooting lower.

It's no different than people saying, "BUT I can't shorten my swing."

They go to the range, try it 5 times, the swing isn't shorter and they move on.

So there is not a pill or some cream or something?

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#68 geesecougar2

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:51 AM

I've always done this, to a comically exaggerated extent. The thing is that it's easier to get that feeling with a strong grip, and if it gets too strong it will be that much easier to get underplane (and all the problems that come with it).

It's really helped to weaken my right hand so that it feels like it's on top of the club rather than to the side.
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#69 vjswing

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 12:36 PM

Monte, is it possible that having the ball position too far away from me might be resulting in the right elbow kicking out backwards in an effort to "reach out" to make contact?  It seems like I can lead with the right elbow very nicely when it comes to less-than-full wedges, but when I get to full swings, and in particular with the longer clubs, I can't do it to save my life.

I just did a little bit of short-game practice yesterday, and made a few driver swings with a tee in the ground a good 2-3" closer than I normally address it, and it felt like I could make a very aggressive pass at the (imaginary) ball in nice balance, with good body rotation.

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#70 ej002

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 12:54 PM

 YMark, on 08 September 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

 mws92, on 08 September 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

The point of the video was to give a visual of the right elbow traveling further in the beginning of the downswing (i.e. lead with the right elbow).

Sorry if the video caused confusion.  Monte and Kelvin are staying the same thing.

Monte:  Lead with right elbow
Kelvin:  Externally rotate the right shoulder at the beginning of the downswing

2 different feels for the same move

Kelvin wasn't saying anything in the video I watched.... it was silent with just a bunch of lines being drawn. ;)

Seriously, I'm not following the externally rotate the right shoulder at the beginning of the downswing statement. Care to explain this another way? What does "externally rotate" even mean?

Read my first post, I tried to explain the feel.


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#71 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 01:19 PM

 scratch72, on 08 September 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

When I get really good with leading with the elbow I find I have to active release or else I leave the face too open. Is that normal? Or could it just be grip too tight?

i tend to have the same feel. with either leading with the elbow or droppping it to the hip, i feel like i need to consciously or actively square up the back of lead hand or its push fades. i've started to fix my path but having more trouble with the proper release and squaring the face.
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#72 dreich54311

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 02:19 PM

 CheckJV, on 09 September 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 06 September 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

 miguelgolf, on 06 September 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

But how do we do it?

Like anything else, you start on 20-30 yard wedges and MAKE AN EFFORT ON EVERY SWING.

A week...nothing.  A month, a slight gain.  6 months, you're shallow and somehow shooting lower.

It's no different than people saying, "BUT I can't shorten my swing."

They go to the range, try it 5 times, the swing isn't shorter and they move on.

So there is not a pill or some cream or something?

If you focus on trying to shorten your swing a whole lot of other elements of the will go haywire and it will be counterproductive. Trying to shorten your swing is like applying a bandaid on a major hemorrhage.  Overswinging is caused by some other major flaw in the swing which you have fix to cure the over swing.

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#73 demclimber

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 02:31 PM

 HoosierMizuno, on 09 September 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

 scratch72, on 08 September 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

When I get really good with leading with the elbow I find I have to active release or else I leave the face too open. Is that normal? Or could it just be grip too tight?

i tend to have the same feel. with either leading with the elbow or droppping it to the hip, i feel like i need to consciously or actively square up the back of lead hand or its push fades. i've started to fix my path but having more trouble with the proper release and squaring the face.

Me too. I tried to feel leading with the right elbow or getting it in front of the right hip and have never been able to do it without having to throw my right hand at it, and I have too much hit instinct as it is. I'm sure it's caused by some other swing flaw, and I believe if I pivoted all the way through better it would square up the clubface naturally, but it never seems to work out for me.

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#74 scratch72

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 02:49 PM

Monte, we need help.

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#75 BeautifulNice

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 02:53 PM

 demclimber, on 09 September 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

 HoosierMizuno, on 09 September 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

 scratch72, on 08 September 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

When I get really good with leading with the elbow I find I have to active release or else I leave the face too open. Is that normal? Or could it just be grip too tight?

i tend to have the same feel. with either leading with the elbow or droppping it to the hip, i feel like i need to consciously or actively square up the back of lead hand or its push fades. i've started to fix my path but having more trouble with the proper release and squaring the face.

Me too. I tried to feel leading with the right elbow or getting it in front of the right hip and have never been able to do it without having to throw my right hand at it, and I have too much hit instinct as it is. I'm sure it's caused by some other swing flaw, and I believe if I pivoted all the way through better it would square up the clubface naturally, but it never seems to work out for me.

One thing that might help is moving the left shoulder away from your head as you begin the downswing in sync with everything else. Also, think "low hands" as you approach impact. I'm crazy to suggest this since I have no idea what i'm talking about - I only suggest it because it has worked for me as a feel to get the proper rotation.

I'm reminded that the swing is an arc and the ball is a point at the "top" of the arc so the clubhead needs to go left after impact along the arc.

My cleek is sometimes peevish.

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#76 MizunoLaxer40

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

 scratch72, on 09 September 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Monte, we need help.

lol! he dumped a couple minutes of gold on us and took off...
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#77 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:05 PM

 MizunoLaxer40, on 09 September 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

 scratch72, on 09 September 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Monte, we need help.

lol! he dumped a couple minutes of gold on us and took off...

LOL, that's because I don't like any of you.

What can I simplify?
Did you see him smacked up
And cracked up
With his tongue on his chin
And his club in his hand,
Swinging from the rafters
Like a real RocknRolla

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#78 demclimber

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:11 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

 MizunoLaxer40, on 09 September 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

 scratch72, on 09 September 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Monte, we need help.

lol! he dumped a couple minutes of gold on us and took off...

LOL, that's because I don't like any of you.

What can I simplify?

If we leade with the right elbow and shallow the shaft, what's next after our right elbow hits the rib cage? Why are so many of us failing to get through the ball to the point that we feel the need to throw our right hands/flip at the ball? Are we not pivoting hard/far enough? If I come down right elbow first, while trying to maintain width too it feels like my clubhead path ends up straight 45* to the left of the target line and I whipe or shank the ball if I don't throw my right hand and the clubhead at the ball to try to square up.

Or more simply, right elbow to rib cage makes the club face feel wide open and we panic.

I hope I captured what others feel too.

Edited by demclimber, 09 September 2013 - 04:13 PM.


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#79 scratch72

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:15 PM

 demclimber, on 09 September 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

 MizunoLaxer40, on 09 September 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

 scratch72, on 09 September 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Monte, we need help.

lol! he dumped a couple minutes of gold on us and took off...

LOL, that's because I don't like any of you.

What can I simplify?

If we leade with the right elbow and shallow the shaft, what's next after our right elbow hits the rib cage? Why are so many of us failing to get through the ball to the point that we feel the need to throw our right hands/flip at the ball? Are we not pivoting hard/far enough? If I come down right elbow first, while trying to maintain width too it feels like my clubhead path ends up straight 45* to the left of the target line and I whipe or shank the ball if I don't throw my right hand and the clubhead at the ball to try to square up.

Or more simply, right elbow to rib cage makes the club face feel wide open and we panic.

I hope I captured what others feel too.
Me too

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#80 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.

Edited by MonteScheinblum, 09 September 2013 - 04:27 PM.

Did you see him smacked up
And cracked up
With his tongue on his chin
And his club in his hand,
Swinging from the rafters
Like a real RocknRolla

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#81 sblack5

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:35 PM

that was an awesome post
hit is with so much authority
that when you find it
and it sees you, it is trembling.

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#82 scratch72

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:35 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.
That makes since, Left arm rotation is something Ive never done and probably others that are having same prob as me. Did you forget some of us are hacks?

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#83 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:38 PM

 scratch72, on 09 September 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.
That makes since, Left arm rotation is something Ive never done and probably others that are having same prob as me. Did you forget some of us are hacks?

We are all hacks.  You can't do one without the other.  Pull the handle, left arm can't rotate or you hit a ball left of left or shank it.

Edited by MonteScheinblum, 09 September 2013 - 04:39 PM.

Did you see him smacked up
And cracked up
With his tongue on his chin
And his club in his hand,
Swinging from the rafters
Like a real RocknRolla

23

#84 Paul E

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:39 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.

This might help.



24

#85 lv_2_hack

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:45 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.

Wait wait wait wait.....

Hogan rotated his left arm? Does that mean he HAD forearm rotation?

*head explosion*

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#86 lv_2_hack

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:50 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

 scratch72, on 09 September 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.
That makes since, Left arm rotation is something Ive never done and probably others that are having same prob as me. Did you forget some of us are hacks?

We are all hacks.  You can't do one without the other.  Pull the handle, left arm can't rotate or you hit a ball left of left or shank it.

^This.

Was about to mention how many OTT'ers might feel like they need to 'release their hands' or flip to square the club because they have never had any forearm rotation on the DS. With their steep moves it made it almost impossible to allow club to release or it would go off the world left.
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#87 scratch72

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:52 PM

Im going to a guess Monte loves his down swing but back swing is too in and around.

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#88 Atrayn

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:57 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.

I've been TRYING to talk about it but I don't think too many understood what I was talking about!
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#89 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:59 PM

 Atrayn, on 09 September 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 09 September 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

The left arm must rotate to rotate the club so it stays connected and the club rotates with the turn.  Most people don't do this.  If your first move down is to steepen the club, then you CANNOT do this move or the shaft will get REALLY steep.

You also need to pivot/turn the club left after impact.  This can also be a steepening move.

So leading with the right elbow, shallows, which allows you to rotate the left arm and turn hard left without steepening.

This is why you can't zero out impact positions and path.  You have two opposing forces creating everything...which is the way most things in the swing work.

This is why when you see Hogan with his elbows so close together it looks so good.  He leads with the right elbow and massively rotates the left arm.  They cancel out and produce poetry in motion.

Tiger does neither of these things very well, he is just zeroing out positions artificially and is poultry in motion.  He just happens to be the finest manipulator of the golf club I have ever seen...and works his tail off.

This is a concept that needs more attention.  I have seen few who understand it...even fewer who talk about it.

I've been TRYING to talk about it but I don't think too many understood what I was talking about!

I know one individual of whom you speak...lol.
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Like a real RocknRolla

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#90 miguelgolf

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:17 PM

Monte, don't you think as a feel just TRYING to max out the R wrist bend in transition will make the R elbow lead. This can be done while trying to rotate the pivot already (CP). Will also force R elbow to get down in front of R hip (pitch) with the club not steepening or laying off hopefully.

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