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Leading with the right elbow


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#31 sblack5

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:33 PM

I promise that you can still be under plane.......especially if you allow your left arm to get pinned across your chest

hit is with so much authority
that when you find it
and it sees you, it is trembling.

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#32 miguelgolf

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:40 PM

You adjust for that too (L arm pinned if you prefer that) at address. So the pitch elbow (and R wrist bend) is not really to delay release. It's to accommodate the residual angle between L arm and shaft thru impact.
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#33 bph7

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:40 PM

I've found that really feeling like my right arm is rotating clockwise in the transition gets my right elbow into position.  Is there any danger with this feel?

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#34 i am taylor(made)

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:43 PM

View Postbph7, on 07 September 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I've found that really feeling like my right arm is rotating clockwise in the transition gets my right elbow into position.  Is there any danger with this feel?

it could be dangerous. if you shallow out to much you could your arms behind you. If you want to shallow that much then you just have to know how to handle that much pressure coming into impact.

Look at monte's bump, dumb, and turn. If you shallow out first without the dump, your arms will be stuck behind you. As long as you transition properly i really dont think you can shallow the club to much as long as you have enough strength to square the clubface (most dont though).

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#35 miguelgolf

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

The L wrist will uncock prematurely with that that the only way to avoid it is avoid shifting COG and avoid lower body initiation in DS.

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#36 miguelgolf

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:55 PM

View Posti am taylor(made), on 07 September 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

View Postbph7, on 07 September 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I've found that really feeling like my right arm is rotating clockwise in the transition gets my right elbow into position.  Is there any danger with this feel?

it could be dangerous. if you shallow out to much you could your arms behind you. If you want to shallow that much then you just have to know how to handle that much pressure coming into impact.

Look at monte's bump, dumb, and turn. If you shallow out first without the dump, your arms will be stuck behind you. As long as you transition properly i really dont think you can shallow the club to much as long as you have enough strength to square the clubface (most dont though).

Yeah. That is actually doing the dump first before the bump.
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#37 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:30 PM

I am now convinced this is a great video.

The reason...the discussion has been great.  Every response has been good.
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#38 i am taylor(made)

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:37 PM

View Postmiguelgolf, on 07 September 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

View Posti am taylor(made), on 07 September 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

View Postbph7, on 07 September 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I've found that really feeling like my right arm is rotating clockwise in the transition gets my right elbow into position.  Is there any danger with this feel?

it could be dangerous. if you shallow out to much you could your arms behind you. If you want to shallow that much then you just have to know how to handle that much pressure coming into impact.

Look at monte's bump, dumb, and turn. If you shallow out first without the dump, your arms will be stuck behind you. As long as you transition properly i really dont think you can shallow the club to much as long as you have enough strength to square the clubface (most dont though).

Yeah. That is actually doing the dump first before the bump.

if you take my comment word for word then yes you would be right. But feel isnt always real. For me dumping first is the best thing because my lower body rotates to fast. if i bump first my arms get stuck. If i dumb first my lower body naturally bumps without me having to think about it.

This is why all instruction should not be taken at face value. Look at the instruction and interpret it for what is is, and how it will fit YOUR SWING. What tendencies do you have or dont have and how will tihs drill help it. Nothing is cookie cutter. You have to put the work in through trial and error and see what works for you.

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#39 dairic

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:55 PM

View Postmiguelgolf, on 07 September 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

View Postdairic, on 07 September 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Loosely related but important to know. Leading pitch right elbow can get you seriously under plane if not careful.



Not under plane if you've set the max uncock limit of L wrist at address already.

Sounds interesting. Could you expand on this?

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#40 MizunoLaxer40

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:10 PM

View Postdairic, on 07 September 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

View Postmiguelgolf, on 07 September 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

View Postdairic, on 07 September 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Loosely related but important to know. Leading pitch right elbow can get you seriously under plane if not careful.



Not under plane if you've set the max uncock limit of L wrist at address already.

Sounds interesting. Could you expand on this?

I think he means L wrist is literally as uncocked as it could be at address. but do you mean that as literally cupped? or just flat and uncocked?

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#41 i am taylor(made)

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:17 PM

View Postdairic, on 07 September 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

View Postmiguelgolf, on 07 September 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

View Postdairic, on 07 September 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Loosely related but important to know. Leading pitch right elbow can get you seriously under plane if not careful.



Not under plane if you've set the max uncock limit of L wrist at address already.

Sounds interesting. Could you expand on this?

i dont really think shifting off the ball in the backswing is advisable.

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#42 dreich54311

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 12:10 AM

My problem with downswing moves or techniques is that I'm not coordinated enough nor have the hand eyecoordination to do them in the split second the downswing takes.  I get messed up in all sorts of ways when I do.  Even if it does work for me I shortly overwork the move and really get messed up.  Also I tend to forget the rest of the swing and of course another fault pops up.

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#43 mws92

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 03:37 AM

Another way of thinking about this is to externally rotate from the right shoulder. This helps get the right elbow in front of the right hip.



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#44 miguelgolf

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 04:44 AM

View Postdreich54311, on 08 September 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

My problem with downswing moves or techniques is that I'm not coordinated enough nor have the hand eyecoordination to do them in the split second the downswing takes.  I get messed up in all sorts of ways when I do.  Even if it does work for me I shortly overwork the move and really get messed up.  Also I tend to forget the rest of the swing and of course another fault pops up.

That's why IMO there should be more focus on the BS. If we could make the BS just right in order for the transition/DS to be just a simple 1-2 move, that would be my ideal. Of course you need to know what should happen in transition-DS-impact so that you know own to construct your BS.

I think the R elbow leading stuff can be ensured to happen by simply designing your BS a certain way. So all you have to do in DS is to move your lower body and then hit the ball as hard as you wish. That sure is what I want to achieve eventually.
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#45 golfnmudd

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:00 AM

So is the the right elbow getting stuck really the result of lack of hip turn in relation to shoulder turn?  Also, is this a move that everyone should try, or just people who slice the ball?

Also monte, is this the same swing thought as what u talk about getting the right a shoulder outside (like u did in the remax thread)?


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#46 YMark

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 11:24 AM

View Postmws92, on 08 September 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

Another way of thinking about this is to externally rotate from the right shoulder. This helps get the right elbow in front of the right hip.



:WTF:  What a lame video. I'll stick with Monte's.
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#47 dairic

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostYMark, on 08 September 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

View Postmws92, on 08 September 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

Another way of thinking about this is to externally rotate from the right shoulder. This helps get the right elbow in front of the right hip.



:WTF:  What a lame video. I'll stick with Monte's.

Whatch'u talkin' bout Willis!!?? Great video man!

Kelvin's stuff is great.

Checkout his latest article on top of backswing position which he relates to right elbow movement.

http://www.aroundhaw...fessionals.html



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#48 sblack5

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 12:20 PM

I like kelvins stuff.....but for a simple swing thought to incorporate a new movement he is too complicated
hit is with so much authority
that when you find it
and it sees you, it is trembling.

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#49 dreich54311

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:04 PM

View Postmiguelgolf, on 08 September 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

View Postdreich54311, on 08 September 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

My problem with downswing moves or techniques is that I'm not coordinated enough nor have the hand eyecoordination to do them in the split second the downswing takes.  I get messed up in all sorts of ways when I do.  Even if it does work for me I shortly overwork the move and really get messed up.  Also I tend to forget the rest of the swing and of course another fault pops up.

That's why IMO there should be more focus on the BS. If we could make the BS just right in order for the transition/DS to be just a simple 1-2 move, that would be my ideal. Of course you need to know what should happen in transition-DS-impact so that you know own to construct your BS.

I think the R elbow leading stuff can be ensured to happen by simply designing your BS a certain way. So all you have to do in DS is to move your lower body and then hit the ball as hard as you wish. That sure is what I want to achieve eventually.

Agree totally.  If the backswing is done correctly the  down swing occurs automatically with no manipulation by the player which you can't do any way because the downswing occurs in a split second, not enough time for any conscious manipulation.

The big mistake in the backswing  is that the right arm takes over which puts the club behind the player and requires a very aggressive lower body turn in the downswing to keep you from coming over the top.  I believe that the right arm takeover in the backswing is actually the cause of the vast majority of bad shots.

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#50 dmb316

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:12 PM

If only 20-30 yard wedges to start to help get the feeling of leading with the right elbow, am I doing damage if I slow it all down and do a full swing, or should this be half swings at close to normal speed?


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#51 jonnygrouville

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 03:26 PM

Strewth.  I need a drink.

Firstly, Monte opened my eyes to hitting a block and a hook with a steep shaft early in the downswing.  After twenty years of playing and studying golf, that put the tools back in the mental shed.  Steep and in to out.  Finally an answer to my long search to find out why I hit it out of the toe.  All golf instructors have been able to tell me in this time (including my coach in college) was 'You're a good player - go and hit some fades'.  Sorted the toe out quickly as I quickly learned a cold socket as I got even steeper.

Now shallow shaft, rotate more, hook less.  I am a big fan of Monte's video on the swing plane, like hitting from a really high tee with the ball up sort of belly-button height.  Simplicity itself.  This video is a big part of the puzzle putting all of this together.  I could never hit a ball from my knees, but can get some nice flights with a four wood (admittedly off quite a high tee) using this concept where I would previously hit the ground a foot or two before the ball and bounce the clubhead over the little bastxxx.

Can't remember exactly, but I remember a Bradley Hughes video saying the shallowing of the shaft in the downswing acted as a brake or something like that, a way of taking the aggression out of the downswing.  Whatever the case, it does seem like the club can easily follow the elbow and forearm towards the ball... if that isn't the stupidest thing I have ever written.  Explaining yourself is difficult eh?

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#52 bilbry57

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 04:53 PM

Monte,

My daughter was a college softball pitcher when she let her arms hang naturally her inside  R elbow  faced right hip great for rise ball not so good drop ball.  It seems-that  your R  arm hangs that way as well.  Mine are the opposite my forearm are more internally rotated when hanging loosely.   My R elbow doe not Naturally turn in the way yours does.  Any thoughts on  leading with R elbow from the position my arms hang.  Or am I just crazy

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#53 mws92

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 06:30 PM

View Postdairic, on 08 September 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

View PostYMark, on 08 September 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

View Postmws92, on 08 September 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

Another way of thinking about this is to externally rotate from the right shoulder. This helps get the right elbow in front of the right hip.



:WTF:  What a lame video. I'll stick with Monte's.

Whatch'u talkin' bout Willis!!?? Great video man!

Kelvin's stuff is great.

Checkout his latest article on top of backswing position which he relates to right elbow movement.

http://www.aroundhaw...fessionals.html

The point of the video was to give a visual of the right elbow traveling further in the beginning of the downswing (i.e. lead with the right elbow).

Sorry if the video caused confusion.  Monte and Kelvin are staying the same thing.

Monte:  Lead with right elbow
Kelvin:  Externally rotate the right shoulder at the beginning of the downswing

2 different feels for the same move

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#54 jbw749

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 06:48 PM

Monte, what are your thoughts on the benifits of hitting balls right arm only?

Edited by jbw749, 08 September 2013 - 06:49 PM.


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#55 YMark

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:36 PM

View Postmws92, on 08 September 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

The point of the video was to give a visual of the right elbow traveling further in the beginning of the downswing (i.e. lead with the right elbow).

Sorry if the video caused confusion.  Monte and Kelvin are staying the same thing.

Monte:  Lead with right elbow
Kelvin:  Externally rotate the right shoulder at the beginning of the downswing

2 different feels for the same move

Kelvin wasn't saying anything in the video I watched.... it was silent with just a bunch of lines being drawn. ;)

Seriously, I'm not following the externally rotate the right shoulder at the beginning of the downswing statement. Care to explain this another way? What does "externally rotate" even mean?

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#56 mws92

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostYMark, on 08 September 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

View Postmws92, on 08 September 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

The point of the video was to give a visual of the right elbow traveling further in the beginning of the downswing (i.e. lead with the right elbow).

Sorry if the video caused confusion.  Monte and Kelvin are staying the same thing.

Monte:  Lead with right elbow
Kelvin:  Externally rotate the right shoulder at the beginning of the downswing

2 different feels for the same move

Kelvin wasn't saying anything in the video I watched.... it was silent with just a bunch of lines being drawn. ;)

Seriously, I'm not following the externally rotate the right shoulder at the beginning of the downswing statement. Care to explain this another way? What does "externally rotate" even mean?

Posted Image

The movement labeled A above is rotating the shoulder externally (B would be internal rotation)

Posted Image

This is an extreme amount of external rotation.  At the end of the video I posted, Kelvin says "think like throwing side arm".  Another feel would be to simulate skipping rocks from the top of the backswing - that's external rotation or leading with the elbow.

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#57 Darth Leverage

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:05 PM

Not TGM or biomechanics savvy, but I believe it's moving the right elbow closer to the left, or getting the elbow to point more towards the belly button. Happy to be corrected ☺

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#58 scratch72

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:10 PM

When I get really good with leading with the elbow I find I have to active release or else I leave the face too open. Is that normal? Or could it just be grip too tight?

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#59 JBOMB808

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

I think this a reaction to the lower body leading the upper body, unless you tuck the elbow early in the backswing like Dufner.  

Secret is in the dirt

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#60 dairic

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:42 PM

View PostJBOMB808, on 08 September 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

I think this a reaction to the lower body leading the upper body, unless you tuck the elbow early in the backswing like Dufner.  


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