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Tiger's drought/done (merged)


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#91 Rockminer

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:24 AM

I think the Collins' article was talking about tigers record of never coming from behind to win a major. When Tiger has the lead going into sunday, he's playing not to lose ( defensive), instead of having to come from behind to win on sunday ( offensive). JMO


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#92 Vindog

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:27 AM

View Posttoddnt, on 22 July 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Yeah, looks alot better than players that hevent won one Major being number one! Guys won four time this year, a career for some!

View Postcorky, on 22 July 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Should a guy that hasn't won a major in the last 3 years, be ranked no. 1?

I think his quesation is valid.  Many expressed their displeasure that some were #1 without having won a Major during the cycle.  Now here Tiger is, with no Major during the cycle, at #1.  It's a fact.

That said, I have no problem with a player being #1 without having won a Major during the cycle, because I uderstand what the OWGR is.
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#93 jdmorris1980

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:28 AM

View Postdmbgolfer, on 22 July 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I don't believe Tiger's going to win another major until he does.
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#94 tbowles411

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostVindog, on 22 July 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

View Posttoddnt, on 22 July 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Yeah, looks alot better than players that hevent won one Major being number one! Guys won four time this year, a career for some!

View Postcorky, on 22 July 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Should a guy that hasn't won a major in the last 3 years, be ranked no. 1?

I think his quesation is valid.  Many expressed their displeasure that some were #1 without having won a Major during the cycle.  Now here Tiger is, with no Major during the cycle, at #1.  It's a fact.

That said, I have no problem with a player being #1 without having won a Major during the cycle, because I uderstand what the OWGR is.
Many weren't complaining when Luke Donald and Lee Westwood were #1 as well.  I was a little vocal about it because I didn't understand how the rankings were tabulated.  Now that I do, it makes sense.

#95 mosesgolf

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:37 AM

According to Mike and Mike, Steven A Smith, Skip Bayless, & many other "experts" Tiger is done.  He is not catching Jack etc.  As soon as Tiger wins his next major which imo will happen within the next year, all these guys will be back on the bandwagon.  Now is Tiger catching Jack?  Well he has to have Phil Mickelson's career to do so.   After this weekend and getting major #5 Phil can now be called one of the all time greats.  Inside the top 12 imo.

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#96 Vindog

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:39 AM

View Posttbowles411, on 22 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Many weren't complaining when Luke Donald and Lee Westwood were #1 as well.  I was a little vocal about it because I didn't understand how the rankings were tabulated.  Now that I do, it makes sense.

True, as always there were both sides to that coin.  I mean the rankings are field setters for the Majors and WGC, and that's all they are.  Clearly the best current carrers are Tiger, Phil/Ernie,  regardless of their play in the last 2 years.  And a player going from 15 to 5 to 12 means nothing.  Going from 60-50 though, now we're talking.  That might make or break a career for somone just becasue now they get a shot at the Majors and WGC, thus more points, thus more money

Take Freddi Jac for example.  Good but not great player, but he played and played and played and found his way into the masters at #48 by April...  now THAT is playing for something.
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#97 dangerman77

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:49 AM

He probably spent all his time practicing at Muirfield VILLAGE.  Ended up working on the wrong shots.  Not an uncommon mistake, but he should know better by now and and ALWAYS double-check the Tour website to see where the tournament is.

#98 tbowles411

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:50 AM

View Postmosesgolf, on 22 July 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

According to Mike and Mike, Steven A Smith, Skip Bayless, & many other "experts" Tiger is done.  He is not catching Jack etc.  As soon as Tiger wins his next major which imo will happen within the next year, all these guys will be back on the bandwagon.  Now is Tiger catching Jack?  Well he has to have Phil Mickelson's career to do so.   After this weekend and getting major #5 Phil can now be called one of the all time greats.  Inside the top 12 imo.
I think Phil has a bit more to do to pass the pantheon of Trevino, Nelson, Player, Hogan, etc.  I think Top 12 is too high.  Top 20?  Yes.

#99 scratchswinger

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:51 AM

After the US Open many had already buried Phil, it's insane how quickly perceptions and outlooks can change.

TW is far from done, being 23 over par on weekends for his last 6 Majors in a obvious problem. There is a mental hurdle that he needs to get over and holing some putts on the weekends would be the ultimate band-aid.

Was it Jackie Burke that said there are 4 levels of golf- playing on the course, playing in tournaments, playing in majors and playing Sundays at majors. TW needs to learn how to play weekends at Majors.

#100 Pert1862

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:51 AM

Wish I was "done" like that. Guy has won more money since hes been "done" than i will make in a lifetime.

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#101 tbowles411

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:51 AM

View PostVindog, on 22 July 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

View Posttbowles411, on 22 July 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Many weren't complaining when Luke Donald and Lee Westwood were #1 as well.  I was a little vocal about it because I didn't understand how the rankings were tabulated.  Now that I do, it makes sense.

True, as always there were both sides to that coin.  I mean the rankings are field setters for the Majors and WGC, and that's all they are.  Clearly the best current carrers are Tiger, Phil/Ernie,  regardless of their play in the last 2 years.  And a player going from 15 to 5 to 12 means nothing.  Going from 60-50 though, now we're talking.  That might make or break a career for somone just becasue now they get a shot at the Majors and WGC, thus more points, thus more money

Take Freddi Jac for example.  Good but not great player, but he played and played and played and found his way into the masters at #48 by April...  now THAT is playing for something.
And now he's more of a fixture on tour because of working his butt off to get that high in the rankings so quickly.  He's given himself a chance, and that's all they can ask for.

#102 Llortamaisey

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:53 AM

View PostHot Rod 71, on 22 July 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

View PostLlortamaisey, on 22 July 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Michael Collins had a great sound bite about Tiger. He said that Tiger is the greatest defensive golfer ever to play the game and if he wants to win more majors he's going to have to learn how to play offensive golf. I completely agree.

I seem to remember him playing "offense" quite a bit earlier on in his career.......when he was winning all the time.

Collins was referring to him never having to comeback to win a major. And based on that context, Tiger has never been an offensive golfer on Sunday. He always paced himself, got a lead, and then played defensive golf on Sunday. YE Yang is the Buster Douglas. He proved that Tiger could be beat and Tiger's defensive strategy hasn't worked since.

Think about how many more majors Tiger would have if he was more of an offensive player on Sunday, when the pressure is on, when it really counts. If Tiger wants to break Jack's record, he will have to be more offensive on Sunday.

Edited by Llortamaisey, 22 July 2013 - 09:54 AM.


#103 tbowles411

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:53 AM

View Postscratchswinger, on 22 July 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

After the US Open many had already buried Phil, it's insane how quickly perceptions and outlooks can change.

TW is far from done, being 23 over par on weekends for his last 6 Majors in a obvious problem. There is a mental hurdle that he needs to get over and holing some putts on the weekends would be the ultimate band-aid.

Was it Jackie Burke that said there are 4 levels of golf- playing on the course, playing in tournaments, playing in majors and playing Sundays at majors. TW needs to learn how to play weekends at Majors.
All over again.  I really think it's some execution, but mostly mental at this point.  You have to play that 4th day for the trophy and I think he's forgotten how to do that.

#104 Willie Malay

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:54 AM

Guilty conscience will haunt you. On the bright side it seems he has one now.

#105 somaplr

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:58 AM

If you think Tiger is done, you really don't know much about golf.  At all.


#106 PingDrv00

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:05 AM

I think it all comes back to the tale of the flatstick, 33 puts both days on the weekend does not a major winner make.  The putts that never missed are now missing, and that has got to rattle you a bit.  I do think if he went back and put a bit more aggressiveness in his game at spots than those better positions might yield more birdies.  At the same token, I haven't won one major, much less a British so who am i to conjecture.
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#107 scratchswinger

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:10 AM

View Posttbowles411, on 22 July 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

View Postscratchswinger, on 22 July 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

After the US Open many had already buried Phil, it's insane how quickly perceptions and outlooks can change.

TW is far from done, being 23 over par on weekends for his last 6 Majors in a obvious problem. There is a mental hurdle that he needs to get over and holing some putts on the weekends would be the ultimate band-aid.

Was it Jackie Burke that said there are 4 levels of golf- playing on the course, playing in tournaments, playing in majors and playing Sundays at majors. TW needs to learn how to play weekends at Majors.
All over again.  I really think it's some execution, but mostly mental at this point.  You have to play that 4th day for the trophy and I think he's forgotten how to do that.

I disagree for the case of TW and only TW. He won his other 14 Majors by getting leads going into the weekends and then playing very defensive over the weekend, making key putts and letting others make mistakes. They made mistakes because they were pressing knowing that TW would play error free golf and they had to risk it all in order to catch him. Now that he doesn't have those leads going into the weekends and does not have the luxury of playing for par.

#108 Playaway

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:11 AM

All you "tiger more aggessive on Sunday" guys do not understand links golf.  Especially links golf at Muirfield in 2013.  On an American golf course (target golf) hosting the PGA Championship, a guy can easily become more on the "offense".  Just try to knock it stiff with spin.  If you miss, you have a tough chip from the rough and may make bogey.  You go for a flag at this year's Open Championship and you could make double or worse very easily.

I saw Tiger taking more chances, playing more aggressively.  What happened?  He hit it over into a bunker and had to play out sideways.  He tried to cut the corner on that dogleg left and his tee shot found the bunker.  He had to just play out.

You have to temper your aggressive play on this type of course.  And being more aggressive might mean trying to get it to 20 feet instead of 40 feet.  

You had a hand full of players blow past Woods on day 4.  IMHO, these players understand how to be "assertive" at this tough a course, Tiger not so much.  And, as I have said, I think he lost a lot when he lost Steve Williams.

The reason Tiger has never come back in a major?  He does not know where to be aggressive and where not to be.

Haney may be right.  Tiger does not prepare properly on some of these venues.

He's not "done" BTW.  But he IS past medium rare.
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#109 Frankie Lob Wedge

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:19 AM

View Postbobsuruncle, on 22 July 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

It looked like Phil and Ian who both played hard and took risks on a "softer, slower" day, were rewarded with low scores.  The others seemed to be too cautious and never attacked the course / pin, and as a result didn't have many "real" birdie opportunities.  How many approach shots stopped at the front of the green?  An easy example is #18 - Phil's approach went past the pin.  Tiger, Scotty, Westy were all at the front of the green.  

Further, how many putts didn't carry to the hole?  My late uncle used to say (wrt chips and putts) - "never up, never in".  Isn't the advice to putt 18 inches past the hole?  These guys were trying to "die" the ball at the hole.  To add to that, both Phil and Ian were just dropping bombs (of putts) from mid- to long- range.  Westy did the same on Sat but couldn't keep the putter hot for Sunday, when it mattered most.

Players lived and died on putting yesterday.  The top guys who faded could not make any putts - Westy,Scott, Tiger, Mahan.   Phil and Poulter were making putts and Stenson and Zach were mixed bag.

#110 Power13

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:21 AM

View PostPert1862, on 22 July 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Wish I was "done" like that. Guy has won more money since hes been "done" than i will make in a lifetime.

Does anyone think that is the yardstick by which he measures himself?  

Seems to me his measuring stick likely has 18 notches on it, not dollar signs.

Here is the reality:
  • Tiger is not the golder he once was
  • His competition is getting better all the time
  • Each major that passes make it more and more difficult to pass Jack
This was his best opportunity in years to notch a Major win.  He was seemingly playing and putting well.  But he still folded on Sunday...and that trend is very troubling for his quest of Jack's record.


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#111 rlynham

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:23 AM

View PostLlortamaisey, on 22 July 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Michael Collins had a great sound bite about Tiger. He said that Tiger is the greatest defensive golfer ever to play the game and if he wants to win more majors he's going to have to learn how to play offensive golf. I completely agree.


Uhh...no. Nicklaus was the greatest defensive golfer ever, by a lot. Jack couldn't chip or pitch for crap so he had to play conservatively.

Tiger isn't as aggressive as he was in his early days but is still more aggressive than Jack.
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#112 Vindog

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:24 AM

View PostPower13, on 22 July 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

This was his best opportunity in years to notch a Major win.  He was seemingly playing and putting well.  But he still folded on Sunday...and that trend is very troubling for his quest of Jack's record.

I can get behind this, but I might contend that The Masters may have been the better shot, becasue I think he played well enough to win there, but for the flagstick and the drop heard 'round the world.  Here I may not agree that he played well enough to win, but he had a great shot at it nonetheless.

Edited by Vindog, 22 July 2013 - 10:26 AM.

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#113 ahbot

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:25 AM

Tiger is Done? Please it's like saying Tiger will never win again. Phil was done after the US Open but he's won 2 in a row. Tiger is far from done. He's got to get that first one and then it's over from there.
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#114 bscinstnct

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:27 AM

Playaway!

"He is past medium rare" ; )

Appreciate your post.

TW looks good to me. I put a lot of stock into tempo and balanced finish and I really liked what I saw. Couple of nice drivers, was surprised.Still need the short game, putting. And I like his overall body language. Head up.

I have been consistent in suggesting 2014 is the year he rings up #15.

Edited by bscinstnct, 22 July 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#115 daWRXguy

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:29 AM

Some of you make it sound like he blew a 10 stroke lead...

Leader of Fedex points and leading money list and yet tiger is "done".... PLEASE...


#116 ryanarneson

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:29 AM

View PostPower13, on 22 July 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

View PostPert1862, on 22 July 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Wish I was "done" like that. Guy has won more money since hes been "done" than i will make in a lifetime.

Does anyone think that is the yardstick by which he measures himself?  

Seems to me his measuring stick likely has 18 notches on it, not dollar signs.

Here is the reality:
  • Tiger is not the golder he once was
  • His competition is getting better all the time
  • Each major that passes make it more and more difficult to pass Jack
This was his best opportunity in years to notch a Major win.  He was seemingly playing and putting well.  But he still folded on Sunday...and that trend is very troubling for his quest of Jack's record.


You're not TW. I'm not TW. No one on here is TW. So why is there always this insistence that the only way to measure TW is by TW's standards, which frankly are probably more media creation and speculation than anything else?

People can have different takes on his career and how he's playing this year.

#117 Playaway

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:32 AM

View Postbscinstnct, on 22 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Playaway!

"He is past medium rare" ; )

Appreciate your post.

TW looks good to me. I put a lot of stock into tempo and balanced finish and I really liked what I saw. Couple of nice drivers, was surprised.Still need the short game, putting. And I like his overall body language. Head up.

I have been consistent in suggesting 2014 is the year he rings up #15.

Oh no, he's not done.  But he has backed up a bit to his competition.  He's not hitting it past everybody looking at wedge when they are hitting 5 iron.  He's not making everything like he used to, and I mean everything.

I think Sir Nick may have made the best prognosis.  It is a confidence issue.
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....
they just can't kill the beast

#118 swbyps

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:33 AM

Hes not done winning majors. Hes been putting himself in position to win pretty regularly. As long as he stays healthy, its going to happen.

#119 Vindog

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:33 AM

View Postryanarneson, on 22 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

You're not TW. I'm not TW. No one on here is TW. So why is there always this insistence that the only way to measure TW is by TW's standards, which frankly are probably more media creation and speculation than anything else?

People can have different takes on his career and how he's playing this year.


I'm sorry but Tiger has set that benchmark for himself.  That is how he measures it.  Total wins and Majors.

VERY ikely he will get the former within a year or two.  The latter, not so much.  We'll just have to see.

Edited by Vindog, 22 July 2013 - 10:34 AM.

run of the mill driver with stock shaft
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wedges from same shovel company
some putter with a dead insert and
a hideous grip

#120 MileHighClub

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:34 AM

View Postmosesgolf, on 22 July 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

According to Mike and Mike, Steven A Smith, Skip Bayless, & many other "experts" Tiger is done.  He is not catching Jack etc.  As soon as Tiger wins his next major which imo will happen within the next year, all these guys will be back on the bandwagon.  Now is Tiger catching Jack?  Well he has to have Phil Mickelson's career to do so.   After this weekend and getting major #5 Phil can now be called one of the all time greats.  Inside the top 12 imo.

I hope you are using the term "experts" VERY loosely here.  Those guys don't know any more than the average GolfWRX'er about it, and probably less.

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