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Flat Left Wrist At Impact


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#1 juststeve

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:59 PM

My left wrist is flat at impact, always has been, but lately I've wondered if that is really important.  What do you think?

Assume that a player is able to deliver a descending blow to the ball and hit the ball before they hit the ground does it really matter whether the left wrist is flat, bowed or even cupped?  If so why does it matter?

Steve


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#2 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 04:16 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 08 July 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

My left wrist is flat at impact, always has been, but lately I've wondered if that is really important.  What do you think?

Assume that a player is able to deliver a descending blow to the ball and hit the ball before they hit the ground does it really matter whether the left wrist is flat, bowed or even cupped?  If so why does it matter?

Steve

Because it is some arbitrary standard of perfection we have been brainwashed to aspire to directly.  What needs to happen in order to produce it and results be damned.
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#3 Steve Meyers

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 04:30 PM

I've got a real strong left hand.  My wrist better never be flat or I'm going to have a bad day.

#4 northgolf

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 05:25 PM

Flat or bowed (suppinated) at impact.  Cupped and you've flipped.

Cupped at the top of the backswing and you'll have control issues as the wrists are in a weak position.

#5 martynbirch

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 05:26 PM

cupper here...

Monte Scheinblum our hero
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#6 juststeve

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 05:39 PM

View Postnorthgolf, on 08 July 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Flat or bowed (suppinated) at impact.  Cupped and you've flipped.

Cupped at the top of the backswing and you'll have control issues as the wrists are in a weak position.

Thanks for reciting the conventional wisdom but my question was why is it important for the left wrist to be flat if your hitting down on the ball and making ball first contact.  Do you have an answer to why.

Steve

#7 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 08 July 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 08 July 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Flat or bowed (suppinated) at impact.  Cupped and you've flipped.

Cupped at the top of the backswing and you'll have control issues as the wrists are in a weak position.

Thanks for reciting the conventional wisdom but my question was why is it important for the left wrist to be flat if your hitting down on the ball and making ball first contact.  Do you have an answer to why.

Steve

I have seen more flippers with cuped wrists play good golf than people who directly and deliberately try and force shaft lean and a flat/bowed wrist.

...and it's about a 100-1 ratio.

Now if you want to tell me that improving sequence and indirectly getting a better wrist angle at impact is helpful...I won't argue.
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#8 JamesBurg

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:32 PM

My lead wrist is always flat or slightly bowed at impact.  Why is that important?  Because it is the way golf clubs are designed to be used.  I suppose you could have a cupped lead wrist with the clubhead still descending, but it seems to me that would be difficult and not a way to hit consistently good shots.  JMO

#9 Scottk

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostJamesBurg, on 08 July 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

My lead wrist is always flat or slightly bowed at impact.  Why is that important?  Because it is the way golf clubs are designed to be used.  I suppose you could have a cupped lead wrist with the clubhead still descending, but it seems to me that would be difficult and not a way to hit consistently good shots.  JMO

Exactly.   And to directly answer the OPs question, if you hit with a cupped wrist, even with a descending blow, you are adding loft to the club.  If you are ok with hitting your 7 iron like a 9 iron, I guess it is no problem to have a cupped wrist at impact.  If a golfer is properly sequenced and accelerating through the shot, the wrist will naturally be flat without thought.  I haven't seen too many really great consistent ball strikers who have a cupped left wrist at impact.  The golf club is designed to have the hands slightly ahead of the ball at impact. Not sure how that is possible with a cup in the left wrist unless you live in chicken wing city.

Edited by Scottk, 08 July 2013 - 07:44 PM.


#10 Steve Meyers

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:55 PM

If you're set up with some major cup in the wrist to start with and that's with forward shaft lean at address, it can still be slightly cupped at impact and everything is fine.  If you've got a weak or neutral grip with a cupped wrist, you're doing it wrong.



Pause that at impact.  It sure doesn't look flat to me.  Yes, I know that Azinger is an extreme example, but it is one.

Edited by Steve Meyers, 08 July 2013 - 08:07 PM.


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#11 HateTheHighDraw

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

With a stronger grip at address, the wrist is cupped and the loft is neutral. Return to that position with  descending blow and I believe you'll be fine. I Could be completely wrong though

#12 Steve Meyers

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:19 PM

This guy was pretty good too.  Clearly some slight cupping at impact. You will also find people on tour with a bowed wrist at impact.  It might not be "ideal", but it's whatever gets the job done, right?



edit: http://perfectgolfsw....net/impact.htm it gets technical, but he basically says it depends on your grip/release what your wrist looks like at impact.

Edited by Steve Meyers, 08 July 2013 - 08:34 PM.


#13 northgolf

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:36 PM

View Postjuststeve, on 08 July 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 08 July 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Flat or bowed (suppinated) at impact.  Cupped and you've flipped.

Cupped at the top of the backswing and you'll have control issues as the wrists are in a weak position.

Thanks for reciting the conventional wisdom but my question was why is it important for the left wrist to be flat if your hitting down on the ball and making ball first contact.  Do you have an answer to why.

Steve

Steve,

I've been a well timed flipper most of my life - I called it sweeping the ball.

I think you only come down on the ball to make contact with a cupped left wrist for a very, very, small point in the downswing.  The reason for this is the collapsing left wrist means the upswing has already started (the more your wrist cups, the more the clubhead swings up).  To be more succinct, I find it difficult to imagine anything other than a bottom of a swing strike that approaches hitting down on the ball with a cupped left wrist - the physical geometry just makes the window for a good strike small.  I had very shallow and short divots after my ball (if any).

There are two clubhead height misses associated with the cupped left wrist at impact: fat when your club bottoms in the turf before the ball, and thin when it doesn't.  Of the two, thin wins - especially in the wet.  I was a great mudder with the flip.  I was also a superior 3W and 5W player off the turf: sweeping blows work with those clubs.

So, back to why a suppinated or flat left wrist at impact.  The reason is if you are hitting down with either of these conditions then the bottom of your swing is still yet to happen.  The counter argument is the cupped left wrist is already hinging the clubhead up and a downward strike is only possible by having your head and weight too far forward for good balance (lots of pulls).

Of course, Monte is completely correct that artificially attempting to keep the left wrist straight doesn't help (fat shots galore was my experience).  I'll climb aboard his boat and say that a flat or suppinated left wrist at impact occurs with a correctly sequenced swing; the obverse is true as well - if your left wrist is cupped at impact then your swing is out of sequence.

For me, my cupped left wrist at impact meant I was giving up 10 to 20 yards to my peers and I had to play more to keep my the timing of my swing.  I was more accurate with my 5w and 3w, but my 5i -3i were weak and short.

My argument against the cupped left wrist at impact is: yes, you can play good golf with a cupped left wrist at impact, but your margins of error are smaller and it requires more athleticism to achieve the same distances as someone whose wrist is flat or suppinated.

North

#14 apprenti23

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:52 PM

I feel that either way is fine as long as you can have the majority of your weight on your front foot at impact while keeping your head behind the ball. Doing any of the above moves with weight on your back foot as opposed to lead foot at impact is a recipe for disaster.

Those who can't grasp it in a week or two of hard practice, just keep on flipping.

#15 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:05 AM



It is necessary but shouldn't be forced.  It is a result of what happens before impact in a good swing.

Homer Kelley was correct when he included it in his three imperatives.


#16 russc

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:19 AM

View PostKiwi2, on 09 July 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:



It is necessary but shouldn't be forced.  It is a result of what happens before impact in a good swing.

Homer Kelley was correct when he included it in his three imperatives.
FLW or GFLW

#17 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:39 AM

View Postrussc, on 09 July 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

FLW or GFLW

Kelley meant flat or bowed.

That is the leading wrist should not be cupped at impact. So if by GFLW you meant generally flat left wrist no. A generally flat left wrist  could include  a slightly cupped one. Imperative means that it is an absolute.

Edited by Kiwi2, 09 July 2013 - 10:52 AM.


#18 Steve Meyers

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:53 AM

So if you can win on the tour without a FLW, only having a GFLW, is it really imperative?

#19 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:13 AM

View PostSteve Meyers, on 09 July 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

So if you can win on the tour without a FLW, only having a GFLW, is it really imperative?

Name one who did? Neither Azinger nor Norman had a bent left wrist at impact. Your interpretation is distorted by the effect of a two dimensional camera view of a strong grip.

Try consistently controlling the clubface with a bent left wrist. Good luck to you if you can do it.

Edited by Kiwi2, 09 July 2013 - 12:10 PM.


#20 russc

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:22 AM

View PostKiwi2, on 09 July 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

View Postrussc, on 09 July 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

FLW or GFLW

Kelley meant flat or bowed.

That is the leading wrist should not be cupped at impact. So if by GFLW you meant generally flat left wrist no. A generally flat left wrist  could include  a slightly cupped one. Imperative means that it is an absolute.
GFLW=geometrically flat left wrist   not generally left wrist and has been used in previous discussions on this subject .


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#21 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:25 AM

View Postrussc, on 09 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

View PostKiwi2, on 09 July 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

View Postrussc, on 09 July 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

FLW or GFLW

Kelley meant flat or bowed.

That is the leading wrist should not be cupped at impact. So if by GFLW you meant generally flat left wrist no. A generally flat left wrist  could include  a slightly cupped one. Imperative means that it is an absolute.
GFLW=geometrically flat left wrist   not generally left wrist and has been used in previous discussions on this subject .

Not in this thread.

#22 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:07 PM

View PostSteve Meyers, on 08 July 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

If you're set up with some major cup in the wrist to start with and that's with forward shaft lean at address, it can still be slightly cupped at impact and everything is fine.  If you've got a weak or neutral grip with a cupped wrist, you're doing it wrong.



Pause that at impact.  It sure doesn't look flat to me.  Yes, I know that Azinger is an extreme example, but it is one.

Azinger had a very strong grip. There was no cupping at impact. Cameras ar two dimensional. It would be easier to see this if they weren't.

#23 Steve Meyers

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:20 PM

I'll create an explanatory video sometime in the next couple of days to show how you can arrive at impact in good position with plenty of forward shaft lean, not flipping, and a cupped wrist.  It's all about how you are setup.

#24 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostSteve Meyers, on 09 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

I'll create an explanatory video sometime in the next couple of days to show how you can arrive at impact in good position with plenty of forward shaft lean, not flipping, and a cupped wrist.  It's all about how you are setup.

Steve, please name one PGA tour winner that played/plays with  cupped left wrist at impact.

#25 cornbred19

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

i can attest to the issues you deal with when forcing the left wrist flat/bowed at impact...and what it took to kick that habit...you don't want to go there...its' like :russian_roulette:

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:16 PM

Isn't Westwood cupped ... and also with a bent left elbow

Jamie Sadlowski?  I think I once saw Mike Maves call this catching raindrops and it can be a power move

I am the same as Westwood.  Dip into impact, cupped left wrist, bent left elbow BUT with forward shaft lean.  

No loss of power, still hit a 7i 180.  Steep swing with deep divots, unlike the above cupped player that stated he gives up distance and has shallow divots).  My nemesis is a 3 wood off the deck

Admittedly, my swing is timing dependent and is better the more often I play.  Can have bad days with the irons.   Mostly thins on the bad days with the irons and hooks with the drivers
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#27 Steve Meyers

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:00 PM

View PostKiwi2, on 09 July 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

View PostSteve Meyers, on 09 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

I'll create an explanatory video sometime in the next couple of days to show how you can arrive at impact in good position with plenty of forward shaft lean, not flipping, and a cupped wrist.  It's all about how you are setup.

Steve, please name one PGA tour winner that played/plays with  cupped left wrist at impact.
Iteach posted a handful of players on a post from 2009 that included Norman and a few others at some point in their careers.  I don't remember the others, and I don't have his slo-mo video access, but I'll trust him on it.  I've got video uploading to YouTube currently that I'll share when it's done.

Edit: Dan's original post 1/2 way down  http://www.golfwrx.c...rist-at-impact/

Edited by Steve Meyers, 09 July 2013 - 02:06 PM.


#28 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:32 PM

View Postcardoustie, on 09 July 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Isn't Westwood cupped ... and also with a bent left elbow

Jamie Sadlowski?  I think I once saw Mike Maves call this catching raindrops and it can be a power move

I am the same as Westwood.  Dip into impact, cupped left wrist, bent left elbow BUT with forward shaft lean.  

No loss of power, still hit a 7i 180.  Steep swing with deep divots, unlike the above cupped player that stated he gives up distance and has shallow divots).  My nemesis is a 3 wood off the deck

Admittedly, my swing is timing dependent and is better the more often I play.  Can have bad days with the irons.   Mostly thins on the bad days with the irons and hooks with the drivers

Can't argue against a former world number one but I don't think his wrist is cupped. I think it is camera illusion of the 2d view with a strong grip

Look at the bend in his left arm at impact.

Attached File  Westood at Impact.jpg   207.71K   4 downloads

Look at the bend in his right hand as well. The amount of that suggests no cup.

#29 Kiwi2

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:37 PM

View PostSteve Meyers, on 09 July 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

View PostKiwi2, on 09 July 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

View PostSteve Meyers, on 09 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

I'll create an explanatory video sometime in the next couple of days to show how you can arrive at impact in good position with plenty of forward shaft lean, not flipping, and a cupped wrist.  It's all about how you are setup.

Steve, please name one PGA tour winner that played/plays with  cupped left wrist at impact.
Iteach posted a handful of players on a post from 2009 that included Norman and a few others at some point in their careers.  I don't remember the others, and I don't have his slo-mo video access, but I'll trust him on it.  I've got video uploading to YouTube currently that I'll share when it's done.

Edit: Dan's original post 1/2 way down  http://www.golfwrx.c...rist-at-impact/

Thanks for the link Steve. I had a look at Curtis and Gulbis, who he mentioned. They weren't cupped at impact. but in fairness  he did say they were cupped at times. I believe Norman never was. It is a shame Dan isn't here. He could give an answer as to whether he considered that a 2d camera view helped him form that opinion and as to whether he still thought that. Or whether he had seen it in person.

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

Lee Cmotion golf promotes a push slap release..his guys in program are murdering it...many consider it to be flippy

Everyone has a nice list of clubs,,I
I play old crappy clubs...just honest

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