[spider]

Just read the article in Golf World and wondered what the you all thought about their methods. The article explained it somewhat but was very general. What are their teachings and how do they compare to "new school and old school."

thanks

[hayam]

Both of them learn MORAD.and TGM. Straighten right leg on backswing, steep & Square shoulder turn, centered head.

There are many similarities with MORAD and Jim Hardy One plane swing. The reason why they are thought to be superior is because it allows Minimal movement of the head and spine and that alone will improve the perception and accuracy of the golfer. ( if your eyes are square to the Plane line throughout the swing instead of swaying , it helps with consistency)

The difference is MORAD is built with the understanding of GOLF Geometry and the model is copied and developed by Mac O Grady, which LAG and Momentum Transfer , Compression, Ballstriking are all very very important in the Morad Model. With the availabity of 16 flight patterns. You learn to Hit , Swing, Cut , draw, Lob , CF , CP, 3 types of hinging with TGM./MORAD, Mac even made a very good short game model using Seve Ballesteros. Thus a more complete Model.

The difference with OLD school weight shift and new school zero weight shift ( even Jack Niclaus, Sam snead,Hogan believes it) .. I believe its just easier and more accurate to stay center ,, especially under pressure. Though the OLD school will feel more dynamic and people with bulk will suite old school better as MORAD require some nimbleness& flexibility. Different stroke for different folks.

[spider]

The part that confuses me is the straightening of the right leg (right handed player) on the back swing. That seems old school to me and might result in reverse C finish and or reverse pivot.

They used Baddeley as the poster boy for that article. How does this method differ from Leadbetter?

[hayam]

I will try to explain a winnie bit, sam snead, hogan does it.

There is a reason why they do it.. they want to be more on top of the ball throughout the swing.. Why on the top? because I guess, if game is a game of Power, i would turn away from the ball, unfortunately its a game of accuracy more than power.

When bending so much to start with and the right hip will have to go up instead stay flat on the ground, so the only way for the knees to react, is to straighten some. The reason why bending down such a gross amount is to enable the square shoulder turn down on plane. Sam snead do it much more than hogan in this instance. Thus making the swing more centered.

If the right knees doesn't straighten, or left knees doesn't bend more, the hip will turn flat ( to the ground), in turn the shoulder will be turning flatter and turning away from the center...

Ok too much secret is leaked.. but all of the component have reasons. But in order to understand why and what, TGM knowledge must be there, I don't understand tons of thing too matter of fact.

And from what i parrot off other forums, Leadbetter was accused of copying MAC. Leadbetter answer was.. " there is only so much to a swing" .... heh :p. So educated guess is... pretty similar but some difference in teaching. and some component preferences + level of understanding.

[akanacl]

hayam, on Apr 23 2007, 07:59 PM, said:

I will try to explain a winnie bit, sam snead, hogan does it.

There is a reason why they do it.. they want to be more on top of the ball throughout the swing.. Why on the top? because I guess, if game is a game of Power, i would turn away from the ball, unfortunately its a game of accuracy more than power.

When bending so much to start with and the right hip will have to go up instead stay flat on the ground, so the only way for the knees to react, is to straighten some. The reason why bending down such a gross amount is to enable the square shoulder turn down on plane. Sam snead do it much more than hogan in this instance. Thus making the swing more centered.

If the right knees doesn't straighten, or left knees doesn't bend more, the hip will turn flat ( to the ground), in turn the shoulder will be turning flatter and turning away from the center...

Ok too much secret is leaked.. but all of the component have reasons. But in order to understand why and what, TGM knowledge must be there, I don't understand tons of thing too matter of fact.

great stuff hayam. I actually have been complaining to Jim Hardy's Boys via email that the first DVD series has zero clarity with regards to the legs and feet DURING the swing.

[hayam]

Akanacl, thanks.

Golf is not as easy as Jim Hardy say. Everybody can become a coach reading his book ? shrug...

[slicefixer]

I agree with them for the most part (at least as to what I've read and been told by folk's who should know)........one thing bug's me a bit though......

THE EXCEPTION is the "centered" pivot.....which is nothing more than a REVERSE pivot........(Hogan did NOT do this.....NOT ONE IOTA.......and I've got TONS of footage to prove it........You show me ANY footage where his head is working AWAY from the target in the transtion/downswing and I'll freely admit I'm wrong.......I saw him hit balls at Shady Oaks in 84' and he damn sure wasn't doing that........if anything he was on the verge of stepping through it......)

You keep the head still/"centered" and your spine will "Tilt" left......can't do ANYTHING but this as the center of the head is NOT in alignment with the center of the spine......you do as Plummer/Bennett wish and you'll transfer weight, only in the WRONG direction........

ALL good players "pass through" very, very similar "angles" during impact .......in Plummer/Bennett's deal the upper spine MUST work backwards AWAY from the target in the transition/downswing in order to "pass through" fundamentally sound angles during impact.......do you honestly want your lower body going forward in the downswing while your upper body is going BACKWARDS? Doesn't make any sense to me and certainly isn't an accurate representation of what Mr. Hogan did during his swing.......btw, I can show you footage where Mr. Hogan's right leg/knee does NOT straighten........all depends on which/what footage you choose to attempt "to prove your point"......

NOW, I ask you, would you rather have your weight work/transfer from right to left in the downswing or left to right? (if your a right hander?)

You CAN throw a ball, shoot a basketball, hit a baseball with your weight working away from the target, but, you won't be nearly as powerful nor as accurate......same thing with a golf club IMOP........it's MUCH easier to simply set up on fundamentally sound angles at address.......rotate around what FEELS like the "back"/"outside" (specifically the THORASIC section) of your spine (which transfers your weight to your right pivot point) then simply "unwind" around the "back" of your spine in the downswing.....IF you set up properly for an iron shot you'll most definitely be "on top" of the ball at impact....with Plummer/Benett's deal you'll feel like your rotating/winding around the "front"/"inside" of your spine......result: REVERSE PIVOT.......and you CAN strike a golf ball with reasonable distance and accuracy "semi-reverse pivoting"......Monty does it on EVERY swing.....and the old guy's did it on every swing also........you should watch Mike Hill/Bob Gilder swing a golf club.....

(IMOP, repeat, IMOP the FEELING is your simply unwinding what you wound up in the backswing, but, what is actually happening is the left knee/hip are working to get over your left hip socket which then creates your LEFT pivot point (weight transferance to the left) which you can then accelerate and "unwind" around.......in this type of transition the small amount of lateral motion is CREATED and NOT "manufactured".....it just happens.......the player doesn't FEEL the lateral......all they feel is they are "clearing their left side".....when done properly the right foot "rolls" to the instep as a result and when the core accelerates around the spine/left pivot point the right foot is "pulled up onto the toe".......there are NO unnecessary moving parts......zero.......in a proper pivot......with Plummer/Bennett's deal you'll have to create some to pass through the appropriate impact angles........there is NO argument about this.........with players as strong as Baddeley/Elkington, etc. they CAN "semi" reverse pivot and get away with it......and the lack of lateral motion would tend to make them more accurate.......however, they are BEGGING for serious back problems in the long run.......will work for some and might well work better for them.......who know's.......but you take the average 20 hdcp. and teach them that "stuff" and they'll reverse pivot and end up throwing their back out......



IMOP, these guy's are simply using MORAD/TGM/HOGAN/SNEAD to set themselves up to become the "new tour guru's"..........and that's perfectly ok........to each his own......but what I WANT to see are some kid's that "THEY" started with from SCRATCH.......let's see how well those kid's swing the club......strike the ball......IMOP that's the TRUE "test" of how good a teacher is in reality........anyone who's got the credibility/access to the PGA Tour/Nationwide Tour practice tee can find more than one player who's willing to listen.....at least if they are willing to stand around long enough......(my buddies and I call this 'strappin' on the kneepad's" and we refuse to do it.....) Show me some kid's who were beginner's at day one and are NOW very good swingers/ballstrikers (NOT already good players when ya' got em') and then I'll believe you know your stuff........anything else and your just "parroting" somebody else's theories or "imagining" up some of your own and "milking"/"using" their talent and previous hard work to benefit YOURSELF...........and, as for me, don't quote "what Mr. Hogan did" unless you can PROVE it with video footage...... NOT still pics as they aren't worth a damn.........I can show you 20 hdcp's who look GREAT in ONE frame of a series of still photo's, but, overall they can't strike the ball a lick and swing the club WORSE.......MOVING pics and then you've got some proof......anything else is just a waste of time......(and there might well be some Hogan footage I don't own, but, I damn sure don't know about it....)

I've been around "tour players" since I was 5 years old (over 40 years to date)......they are, as a rule, pretty good swingers of a golf club or they wouldn't be able to make a living with them.......it's not that big of a deal to help somebody who's ALREADY a good player.......basically, IF YOUR GOOD, you don't reinvent the wheel with them.....you take what they bring to you and attempt to help them achieve better "impact angles".......make them more consistent........maybe add a yard or two......but you do NOT try and "reinvent" them.......if you do your asking for trouble.......If THEY ask you to "rework" their golf swing, then OK.......but otherwise you stick to solid fundamentals and try and improve them from "hip high to hip high" (which is ALL that really matters anyway).....help them to KNOW THEIR golfswing better......help them to understand the "options" they have to improve their impact.....to do this you might well have to tweak their fundamentals/backswing a bit, etc. etc. etc.....and as long as THEY understand WHY they need to change something (how it fits into THEIR golfswing puzzle) then they can make changes pretty quickly........the average am golfer is an ENTIRELY different "animal".....100%.......

One other thing, as I've stated before, I've been around tour players most of my life, and, as a rule, they are some of the most UN-educated golfer's on the planet when it comes to SWINGING a golf club......Some of the "stuff" Miller says on the tube just makes me laugh......some of it is dead on accurate too......as for "tour players," trust me, their are MANY poster's here who know one helluva' lot more about how to swing a golf club than the average tour player.......at least in my experience.......most have NO clue, but, will NOT admit it......some know a "lil' bit about a lot, but, don't know a LOT about much of anything"......as a result, when they are struggling a bit or or not having the success they THINK they should be attaining they will pretty much listen/try ANYTHING.........I remember well when Jacobsen was listening to and praising John Rhodes of Dallas/Ft.Worth.......now it's Hardy.......same for Tiger......Harmon now Haney........Norman = Harmon then Leadbetter NOW himself......Faldo = Leadbetter now HIMSELF......ZILLIONS of other examples, but, I won't bore you by listing what I can remember off of the top of my noggin'.........however, trust me, it's the same for 99.9% of "tour players".......one year it's so and so....the next somebody else......etc. etc. etc.........

In order to be a truly good instructor (IMOP) the teacher needs to KNOW and understand TGM/Hogan/Ballard/Flick/Leadbetter/Reinmuth/Hardy/Haney/Harmon/Suttie/Boomer/Armour/Aultman/Toski/the Jones boy's, Ernest and Bobby, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc and have an intimate knowledge of their teaching beliefs/methods.......LOTS of times you can "learn a new way to say the same thing"....."expand your mind a bit"...."think "outside of YOUR box".......IF I've learned ONE thing over these many years with a golf club in my hand it's this......"the nano-second you think you know EVERYTHING about golf and the golf swing you truly don't know much of ANYTHING"....(same thing could be said of a LOT of other subjects)....MOP of course......for what it's worth.......

ADDENDUM.....ONE other thing I'd like to add, if I may.......You seen any footage of Mac lately? I have and it's BEYOND terrible......he damn sure keep's his head "centered".....LOL.....it moves FORWARD in the backswing and then FURTHER forward in the transition.......it's a VERY poor represenation of what he was in his prime.......how he swung the club in the 80's.......I was witness to him hitting balls in the mid 80's.....(I think it was around 84' or 85, but, it might well have been a lil' later)......his ballstriking was exceptional.......both right and left handed.....unreal.......the one thing I do NOT remember him doing was reverse pivoting or moving backwards in the downswing......I've got a great swing sequence taken during those years and I'm going to go dig it up and see for myself.......btw, he's had TERRIBLE back problems over the years.......at least I've been told this by folk's who know him........one other thing, who crowned him the "all knowing guru of the golf swing?" I have a videotape of him taken in Palm Springs during the early 90's.....he has 10 key positions that you must "hit" during the swing.....don't remember a damn thing similar to Plummer/Bennett's interpretation.......but my memory ain't what it use to be........

Ok..... http://www.historicg...mp;categoryid=1 ........you can form your own opinions......here's O'Grady during his PRIME.......and IF this is what Plummer/Bennet are teaching then I stand corrected.......

[hayam]

Well. true, some of it. I am willing to share footage of hogan slightly straightening his right knee. I personally understand why Hogan tilts more than Snead. Snead stay more over the top than Hogan. Both did it for a reason.

But anyway.. with Zach winning a master, Aaron winning more, Boo Starting to win. I guess it works. They earned it fair and square.

MAC was really disabled now.. he hardly can straighten his right arm. But None of the MORAD decendant really bobs.

I am just saying, I think MORAD is a good model. There are other good models make no mistake, and we should not be afraid of what we don't know, and what I know .. i know is very very little.

And do you know MORAD back swing uses 3 Planes? ... Hand, Elbow, turned shoulder. then comes down on elbow plane,how many shifts is there... Morad is 3 plane swing , wow? ... TGM scholars cried out loud.. but hey... it works .. -.-

[slicefixer]

Hayam......I truly UNDERSTAND what your trying to say.......and I agree with most of it.......but IMOP, to "list" tour player's wins is a damn poor example to prove a point.......the guy's you've listed would win no matter HOW they swung a golf club........the reason, they have guts/heart/passion/discipline, etc. etc. etc.......which IMOP is MUCH more important than HOW they swing a golf club........sure doesn't hurt to swing the club in a fundamentally sound manner.......can, in some instances, be THE deciding factor as to how successful a player becomes........but I can do some research and show you these same players shooting some scores they undoubtedly wouldn't be proud of and I wouldn't have to "research" too far back either.........a successful tour player attains success because of a number of factors......the golf swing/ballstriking is certainly one, but, it's NOT the most important one IMOP........if it were then some VERY successful tour player's wouldn't have won a thing and a bunch of less successful tour players and mini-tour player's who swing great and strike the ball great would win every week........doesn't happen and never will........IF a golf swing was the determining factor in who wins and who doesn't then Tiger certainly wouldn't be REMOTELY as successful as he's become........he had some MAJOR flaws in his swing in 2000 and still does in his downswing today......he wins because he's got guts/heart/brains/desire/willingness to SACRIFICE beyond most/incredible self-discipline, etc. etc. etc........at least IMOP........

As for MORAD, we'll see.......when/if Mac actually put's his thoughts down in WRITING for all the world to see we ALL can form an opinion......until then it's all HERESAY and opinion......100%.......

BTW, it's IMPOSSIBLE to RELEASE a golf club with your body to the left as Mr. Hogan DID if the upper body is moving AWAY from the target.......100% IMPOSSIBLE......the club will have to be released more "down the line"......no other way to do it.......I've got Elkington on tape @ Pinehurst from several different angles.....Plummer/Bennett or standing 6' from him......it has to be one of the worst swings I've ever seen.......his head moves backwards and UP (commonly called "backing out of it) the better part of 6" in the downswing and he's slingin' the clubhead for all it' worth....he's got to or he'll NEVER "reach" the golf ball........another thing, if you work TOWARDS the target in the backswing your FORCED to work AWAY from the target in the downswing which FORCES the player to "sling" the clubhead and rotate the toe down through impact to square it.......you work "away" from the target enough and you'll eventually get the arms/club so STUCK to the inside that you'll hit big blocks/block hooks/hooks/snap hooks.......that's EXACTLY what Tiger did prior to last year........he semi-reversed in the backswing.....then moved forward in the transition (but NOT enough to get to his left side and was spun out a bit)......then worked away from the ball through impact and "hands'd it" to square it..............and he was damn good at timing it........and made everything inside 10' he looked at......and won everything........I've got footage taken in Vegas at Harmon's to PROVE it.......from behind his rear end and above his head........the stuff from behind is absolutely AWFUL.......but it didnt' stop him from kickin' everyone's butt and having the greatest year in golf history.......so, IMOP, using a player's results might not be the best way to judge their golf swing technique.........

What REALLY pisses me off and get's me going is when a "guru" starts preaching/"milking" their name off of Mr. Hogan's.........funny how Hardy, etc. didn't say a damn thing about Mr. Hogan when MR. HOGAN was A L I V E.......not a peep.......now you've got guy's coming out of the woodwork professing to KNOW what Mr. Hogan did........hell, I think I've studied as much Hogan footage/material as anyone in the game and I'd NEVER consider USING Mr. Hogan's name to "promote" myself like Hardy/Haney, etc.......IMOP if your TRULY know something about golf and the golf swing YOU don't have to tell a soul....your students RESULT will scream it for you...and I'm NOT talking about some PGA Tour "student"....I'm talkin'about students that the teacher/coach has helped from GROUND ZERO........so when I see/read another author has written a book professing to KNOW what made Mr. Hogan's golf swing "tick" I want to puke......and I do purchase and read them to.....with most of them I REALLY want to puke after I've read them.....not all though......Schlee had some good ideas......Hebron, yep......even Leadbetter.......but most of em' aren't very accurate and I wonder if the author EVER truly STUDIED Mr. Hogan's golf swing???? IMOP what those type of "teachers" do is downright disrespectful to Mr. Hogan and his accomplishment's.......if a person truly KNOWS something about golf and the golf swing let them come here, or a similar venue, and write down THEIR opinions/thoughts and let the whole world make a decision based on their ideas/opinions, etc.......some will agree and other's will not, but, at least they are being honest and NOT "angling" for a buck......or hiding out behind some "veil of secrecy" like they've got THE "secret"...won't happen with most of em' as they don't TRULY know in their heart if they're opinion has any validity......they risk being exposed for a fraud.......hell, they're are a couple of them on the top 10 list......at least IMOP.........

Jeez, I gotta' say ONE more thing.......the comment you made about the 3 planes.......and I do understand what your talking about......hell, I can list the terms if you don't believe me.....let's see......"turned shoulder plane"......."elbow plane"......"flat loading"....."float loading"......."snap loading"......"power accumulators"........lag......centriputal ACCELERATION........centrifugal force.......fulcrum.......etc. etc. etc........LOL.......just because a person can list some "terms" doesn't mean they know a damn thing about how to swing a golf club........hell in TGM you've got the MORAD "camp," the "Manzella camp," the "Blake Camp"........the TGM bunch can't even agree amongst themselves what/how Homer thought about swinging a golf club........ BTW, I thing "The Golf Machine" is a BRILLIANT book EXACTLY as written......I don't need Lynn Blake to "explain" it to me.........(no offense to Mr. Blake as I do NOT know his interpretation of TGM......just the first name that came to mind )

[hayam]

yeah... crazy... Milking Mr Hogan. why don't we write this bestseller?

I am not sure or educated enough to tell you about the backing away. But from what I understand from my coach.. MORAD is not as straight forwards and there are tons of variance. If i remember faintly ,,, its something about max. momentum transfer. Alot of things doesn't make sense to non TGM or on Morad trained... Like the 3 planes that MORAD use on the backswing as the favourite choice of Mac Ogrady.

I just not clear of your statement.. they can swing it anyway and win... In fact its so competitive that you need EVERYTHING. Though... i see your point.. looking at Jim Furyk. Didn't make sense to us,, but make sense to him and it works!! But the point is , you need everything to win. Hogan, Byron Nelson all bobs some during their swing, but their swing is theirs and it made sense to them, its their secret, and it didn't become ours because it doesn't make sense to us. And thats golf.. the sooner we understood that, the quicker we get bettter.

[slicefixer]

....EXACTLY......(good post...)

Jeez, thought of ONE other thing, I HATE being an insomniac......LOL.......I can show you footage of Sergio/Leonard/Hogan/Glasson/Toms/Snead/Waite/Sluman/Bolt/Venturi/Furyk/Price and about a zillion others......ALL very good to GREAT ballstrikers......you wanna' know where they DO look alike..........at least as far as the clubhead/arms/shaft.........from hip high to hip high.......and IMOP that's the ONLY thing that counts.......in fact, I freak people out with Sergio/Furyk......I put them both on a split screen.......go to McClean's "delivery position".......then place them so that they ONLY thing you can see is the arms/shaft/clubhead.......I "black out" everything else.......then I frame by frame until the club is about 5 or 6' past impact........I SHOW them how similar these two guy's are through impact.......at least how similar the arms/shaft/clubhead are through impact......."then I tell them that BOTH player's are in the top 15 in the world, guess who they are?" Most are totally dumbfounded.......nobody gets them both and if they get one they are just as likely to have them reversed.........THEN I erase the black out and punch a button which takes them back to the top of their backswing whereupon they ALL KNOW who the two players are...........to a person they are shocked........same for Sluman/Toms.......TOTALLY 100% different and opposed armswings in the backswing.......almost 100% EXACTLY ALIKE from the end of the transition through impact.......I can name a bunch of others too........

[spider]

I love it when Slicefixer gets riled up.

Those were some great posts. I cannot convey how much I learned from that exchange. After hearing what those two proposed about straightening of the right leg I felt you couldn't do anything but reverse pivot. Atleast that is what I thought and now Slicefixer has given me the reasons to believe that.

I played this morning and my playing partner did just that. Straigten the right leg... head goes left...hip goes right on back swing... just the opposite on the way down. End result for him was that he had to start with his head (with driver) practically on top of ball or he would never reach the ball on the through swing. High weak ball flight with slice or pull hook.

So far each time Slicefixer has come up with posts they have worked for me in my swing. Thanks for the time you take explaining.

[slicefixer]

Your welcome Spider.......glad SOMETHING in my "midnight rant" helped you......

[hoganfan924]

Quote

ADDENDUM.....ONE other thing I'd like to add, if I may.......You seen any footage of Mac lately? I have and it's BEYOND terrible......he damn sure keep's his head "centered".....LOL.....it moves FORWARD in the backswing and then FURTHER forward in the transition.......it's a VERY poor represenation of what he was in his prime.......how he swung the club in the 80's.......I was witness to him hitting balls in the mid 80's.....(I think it was around 84' or 85, but, it might well have been a lil' later)......his ballstriking was exceptional.......both right and left handed.....unreal.......the one thing I do NOT remember him doing was reverse pivoting or moving backwards in the downswing......I've got a great swing sequence taken during those years and I'm going to go dig it up and see for myself.......btw, he's had TERRIBLE back problems over the years.......at least I've been told this by folk's who know him........one other thing, who crowned him the "all knowing guru of the golf swing?" I have a videotape of him taken in Palm Springs during the early 90's.....he has 10 key positions that you must "hit" during the swing.....don't remember a damn thing similar to Plummer/Bennett's interpretation.......but my memory ain't what it use to be........

Ok..... http://www.historicg...mp;categoryid=1 ........you can form your own opinions......here's O'Grady during his PRIME.......and IF this is what Plummer/Bennet are teaching then I stand corrected.......

Slice - that was one heck of a rant you went on last night!!!

You know I have nothing but respect for you and your knowledge of the golf swing. I haven't read a single one of your posts where I thought you made a technically incorrect point and you've been very gracious and helpful to me, but I would like to address some of the points you made in the above quote that I thought might be misleading to some reading it.

I have worked with Mac (very breifly - I'm no expert) and how you describe his current swing is pretty accurate. However, he certainly is not moving backwards in the downswing if you were implying that. He still hits the ball great even with this "leaning into it" swing that he's using now and he'll hit balls side by side with you throughout the school and give you the videotape (how many instructors would dare to do that?). However, he didn't teach me to straighten out my right leg. He did answer "yes" when I asked him point blank "Is is acceptable to straighten the right leg completely in the BS." Yes, I was troubled by his answer and didn't swallow that as gospel just because it came from Mac.

His back problems are due to a congenital spine disorder called Spondylolisthesis so it wouldn't be fair to imply that his golf swing has something to do with his back problems. He also broke his right elbow 3 or 4 years ago (had 3 operations) and cannot straighten out his right arm which has had an effect on his swing (especially his left handed swing). One important thing that should be noted is that Mac is not ambidextrous, he taught himself how to swing left handed as validation of his swing method (at least that's what he very clearly explained to me) and he has had other instructors that he is training do the same thing (one protege of his that came, took my RH driver, flipped it around, swung it left handed and proceeded to hit it about 250 with a little fade). Mac said it took him about 3 years to get the LH swing correct and he has shot sub -70 tournament rounds playing left handed. Do you think Leadbetter, Haney, McClean or any other "top instructor" could (or would bother) to do that as validation of their method?

Concerning Plummer and Bennett, Mac said "They're out of the program." Meaning they aren't working with Mac any longer and they are teaching what Mac calls "out of date information" because they haven't kept up with the latest MORAD findings. Whether he was completely blowing smoke when he said this I don't know. Perhaps there's some professional jealously going on there (very common amongst the "elite" teaching set I've found). Mac still uses his "10 positions" and they haven't changed as far as I could tell (even the large laminated photo sequence that Mac brings with him to demonstrate the 10 positions is from his swing in the late 1980's)

I'm certainly not going to reveal the significant details of Mac's teaching method on this site as I think that would be a serious violation of his trust. What I will say is that Mac was by far the most knowledgeable and passionate instructor that I've ever met. When I asked him why I cross the line at the top he immediately rattled off the 6 possible reasons (and yes I have posted that here as it was an analysis of a fault and not part of his swing method). He's the only person who has ever given me 1 single reason why I crossed the line at the top. That was just the start. The guy knows his stuff! He was also extremely generous and gracious with me even when I inadvertently toe shanked (wasn't trying to hit the ball) one right into his own "titleists." I think I actually have that on tape!

Additionaly, Mac has spent a great deal of his own money (and I mean big money) on his pursuit of understanding the biomechanics of the golf swing. Mac got his start in TGM and took lessons from Homer Kelly directly for 5 years. His MORAD study was intended to be a study of TGM (to determine if it was correct) to honor Mr. Kelly. Mac now says "Kelly had it 70% right."

As far as I can tell, Mac has been extremely low key when it comes to self-promotion. His website is one page with an email address link. He wasn't even on the ballot for the Golf Digest "top 100" instructors" but he placed (if memory serves me right) 45th last year as a write in - the first time that's ever happened I believe. He hasn't gone around trying to make big bucks off of his name or the fact that he's worked with some of the greatest players in the game. I got 3 very full days with him for the cost of a 30 minute lesson with Leadbetter!

Do I think Mac is the be all end all of golf instruction - No, I don't. But he helped me to not only understand the golf swing much better but taught me how to think about the golf swing and how to explore my own understanding of it by self-examination of how all of the joints in the body work among other things. The man is intensely passionate about learning and teaching the golf swing and I have nothing but tremendous respect for him in this regard (as I do of you).

[slicefixer]

Why thanks.......I appreciate the kind comments! (ditto btw )

As for Mac, I have enormous respect for the man.....he came from NOTHING......won 2 times on the tour inspite of terrible putting.......enriched my own knowledge of how to swing a golf club.......and put on one of the moast amazing displays of shotmaking I've ever witnessed.......my "rant" was NOT directed at him although I DO wish he'd put his opinions into writing........his 10 positions tape was great.......I still remember, "like an ice skater in a spin"......hehehe......I have an ex-college teamate/sometims student/friend who worked for YEARS with Mac.......he's told me many a story.......and helped to inform me as to what Mac teaches, etc........I was also taught how to grip a club properly by O'Grady....."vicariously" from two of my buddies, one of which has won 3 or 4 times on tour......the other won twice in Asia........and I've taught essentially the same grip for 18 years now.........If I were to list my "influences" he would definitely be one of them........as for my rant, I was simply stating what I thought about Plummer/Bennett.......as I'm sure you know, the "word" is they are "disciple's of MORAD"......and that HOGAN/Snead both swung the golf club in a manner like they teach/describe.......which I know for a fact, they did NOT......Snead did have some tendency towards reverse pivoting, but, when he was swinging well he looked NOTHING like the mess I witnessed Elkington practicing @ Pinehurst......

Anyway, I always try and call em' like I see em'......might not be right much of the time, but, I'll at least express what I believe.......if somebody disagrees that is their right.......heck, I LUV a spirited debate as long as it's in good "spirit".......I have golf professional friends who I don't agree with and we agree to disagree and move on down the line........as for Mac O'Grady, I get tired of some of the "guru's" using him to further their own "agenda".......same for Hogan........Snead, etc.......IF you read my post carefully you'll see that what I'm stating (or trying to anyway..... ) about O'Grady is IF Bennett/Plummer are teaching what O'Grady believes then he certainly had changed his mind from the "10 positions"......and that's it........l

[hayam]

spider, on Apr 24 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

I played this morning and my playing partner did just that. Straigten the right leg... head goes left...hip goes right on back swing... just the opposite on the way down. End result for him was that he had to start with his head (with driver) practically on top of ball or he would never reach the ball on the through swing. High weak ball flight with slice or pull hook.

Ermm..... Morad is never really published or made known to public so far. You simply cannot just change a component and expect it to work . Eg. If you put Hogan pivot to Snead's will it work?It would not . And did your friend had proper impact alignment, plane alignments ? Sorry for being blunt..

What is considered Flaw in one swing is Ok to the other swing, people tell Hogan or Snead they are reverse pivoting. Nicklaus hands too high etc.. did they care? .. They did it for a reason, a good reason to them. How many of you Hogan wannabe there suprinate and pronate the wrist like hogan throughout the swing? using a Weak grip? and hits shots like him? .. Golf is not as easy.. there are tons of things to do and understand.

I personally only using some variance of MORAD model Ie a swing... there are a few models and slight variance and allow for preferences, its not a model fixed in stone. For different flexibility, body ratio, if you are strong or or fast, if you need height in trajectory or low..... and with each model you learn different flight patterns. Even from the same factory they looks different from the rest of the pupils. Thats the reason that why to understand MORAD, you need TGM to allow switching components and correcting alignments.... Morad is simply Advanced TGM Model, with a basic model, because Mac O Grady knows he have to allow for variance. Those who study TGM knows every model need to have flexibility and variances.

There is no such thing as a perfect Model, Neither there is such thing as a player never mishits or swing the same everytime , Even tiger woods. they need to shape shots diferent intentions.. their elbow hurts one day... they quarreled with their wife one day.... Golf swing doesn't really work that way. They need to be learned systematically, not by copying sequence, a forum, a book...A good golf swing need to be able to draw when u command, fade when u command. Not make a shot and go.. wow I did that !.or hope for the best.... thats the mind of a hacker.

My take on MORAD so far. I love the advantage this model gives me. period.

In short... A model is only as good as someone who understands it and apply it... Sorry for the rant..

Also...

TGM/ Homer Kelly/ MORAD does not care what you are doing, As LONG as you understand what you are doing it for.

Ted Fort TRUE Reverse Pivot. right click and download

[leekgolf]

There is a lot of good accurate information in the article, but not very useable by novice golfers. Reading this will screw up more swings than you can imagine, and should be a gold mine for teaching professionals. It's not that the information is wrong, it's that it will be used incorrectly.

[spider]

hayam, on Apr 24 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

spider, on Apr 24 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

I played this morning and my playing partner did just that. Straigten the right leg... head goes left...hip goes right on back swing... just the opposite on the way down. End result for him was that he had to start with his head (with driver) practically on top of ball or he would never reach the ball on the through swing. High weak ball flight with slice or pull hook.

Ermm..... Morad is never really published or made known to public so far. You simply cannot just change a component and expect it to work . Eg. If you put Hogan pivot to Snead's will it work?It would not . And did your friend had proper impact alignment, plane alignments ? Sorry for being blunt..

What is considered Flaw in one swing is Ok to the other swing, people tell Hogan or Snead they are reverse pivoting. Nicklaus hands too high etc.. did they care? .. They did it for a reason, a good reason to them. How many of you Hogan wannabe there suprinate and pronate the wrist like hogan throughout the swing? using a Weak grip? and hits shots like him? .. Golf is not as easy.. there are tons of things to do and understand.

I personally only using some variance of MORAD model Ie a swing... there are a few models and slight variance and allow for preferences, its not a model fixed in stone. For different flexibility, body ratio, if you are strong or or fast, if you need height in trajectory or low..... and with each model you learn different flight patterns. Even from the same factory they looks different from the rest of the pupils. Thats the reason that why to understand MORAD, you need TGM to allow switching components and correcting alignments.... Morad is simply Advanced TGM Model, with a basic model, because Mac O Grady knows he have to allow for variance. Those who study TGM knows every model need to have flexibility and variances.

There is no such thing as a perfect Model, Neither there is such thing as a player never mishits or swing the same everytime , Even tiger woods. they need to shape shots diferent intentions.. their elbow hurts one day... they quarreled with their wife one day.... Golf swing doesn't really work that way. They need to be learned systematically, not by copying sequence, a forum, a book...A good golf swing need to be able to draw when u command, fade when u command. Not make a shot and go.. wow I did that !.or hope for the best.... thats the mind of a hacker.

My take on MORAD so far. I love the advantage this model gives me. period.

In short... A model is only as good as someone who understands it and apply it... Sorry for the rant..

My playing partner is not a good player and angles or setup is horrible. I was only making the point that a reverse pivot didn't seem condusive to good ball striking. Mind you I didn't mean this against or for TGM or the teaching of the two instructors I started the thread on. I was just curious what knowledgeable people such as yourself thought about the article and those guys theories.

thanks

[hayam]

I understand that you are not criticising or anything.. I was trying to tell you spider.. Morad was not published and what your playing partner did was not morad, Morad is a Model with 24 components. and there variance in 24 components. therefore not Fixed 24 components. And even some of the ideas does not follow TGM.. So.. the thing on how to use it.. highly depends on the understanding of the person using or applying it. Either you understand, you think you understand or you don't. Since MORAD is not published. Only a very handful of people who learn from mac or 2nd generation people knows it..

Besides 24 components you need to have correct alignment and a certain skill level in order for it to work..

Therefore a just by doing a single component without knowing why is really useless. Like example, I pick up a tip from form and adopted a very strong grip and it cured everything today, everything straight and long , tomorrow I get going to get Hook or pull. Because if I don't understand why i do that, then its not going to stick. The reason why Professional golfer still use Professional coach reveals how tough is the game of golf.

I studied TGM for about a year and I do not understand 35% of the concept.. let alone Applying the concept..example.. alot of people don't really understand 2 J 3 . visual equivalent.. MOST don't understand.

[spider]

Hayam totally understand. My point was only that any time you reverse pivot seems hard on the back and less powerful. Obviously I know nothing about TGM, morad or Bennet and Plummer's teaching other than the article and now what you all have written. thanks

[hayam]

A clue for you spider,

What general golfer does not yet know is that in order for less leakage of power, the force need to be regulated and maintained via pressure points in your body, in the fingers, armpit .( Pressure points "connects" the forces from ground up to your hands). The ball have no idea what hit them and your shaft will bend like this at impact. this is pro impact golf, not neccesary all learn via TGM,



Power and compression have different meaning then. So.. the reverse pivot or whatsoever is meaningless unless you have other certain kinds of information.

Ever wonder why Pros same as our size and strength bend their shaft , XX stiff shafts and we cant? ... Its not just raw talent, its information.



on left Ben Hogan, Right, Lynn Blake, TGM Instructor , 60+ yrs of age. bending the shaft.

[slicefixer]

Hayam.....it's called "loading" and "unloading" the shaft........the player should "load" the shaft (if they have a fundamentally sound pivot and armswing they will)...in a great swing the shaft "unloads" on it's on.........another thing, I can take ANYONE and teach them to "load" the shaft provided the shaft is correct for them......what Mr. Blake is doing isn't that big a deal........for example, I can give my son one of those "Tempomaster" practice clubs and he can load it all to hell.......he's 9 years old........I can also tell you with 100% certainty that you'll never load a shaft properly/fully reverse pivoting because to "load" the shaft you have to create and maintain LEVERAGE and that's pretty hard to do when your moving AWAY from the target in the downswing........

Spider, what Hayam is saying is this, (IMOP) the golf swing is a jigsaw puzzle comprised of a few pieces........IF you isolate ONE piece you don't have a golf swing.....it takes all the pieces inserted in the correct order/fit to make a golf swing.......and certain pieces are unique to a particular puzzle and won't work in different puzzle......etc.......

[hayam]

I am just explaining.. with the correct technique you will get pro results.
The shaft simply bends or loads by by maintaining pressure points. therefore, and we strike the ball using the pressure point. Sound of a ROCK...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=EppF7u97Xn4 Heath Slocum ! listen to his strikes.

[slicefixer]

I like that....."sound of a rock"....... (sounds to me like thump/crack/swooooosh.......hehehe.......(btw, for what it's worth, I agree with almost everything you've written )

[hayam]

Thank you for the stamp of approval.. Still long long way to learn ...
-_- = V cheers

[glcoach]

[quote name='slicefixer' date='Apr 24 2007, 02:54 AM' post='539449']

Three things all TGM instructors will agree on:

• Flat left wrist
  
• Lag "pressure"
  
• Tracing a straight plane line

The differences or "camps" are a result of how to achieve the above. No one disagrees with the imperatives. In my mind you do whatever works to achieve those imperatives, others want you to do something a specific way or you are a "backslider" or not really using TGM or whatever, anyway, There's nothing like the Machine, anyone who studies it will get better.

[spider]

Slicefixer thanks for the explanations.

My only problem with the way Hayam is answering is almost as if you don't know all of it so you can't understand. Perhaps I am missreading the tone as is totally possible and happens all the time with writing on boards and emails. The reason I wrote the question originally is because the article did not go into detail and explain the methods.

I get that the reverse pivot is caused by something other than just the reverse pivot. The player I referred to was not good at all with poor set up etc. I never meant to infer that my playing partner was doing TGM or morad. I think that was my mistake by not being clear. I just thought a reverse pivot (IMUP U=unproffesional ) in any circumstance would be a power killer and not a great way to strike the ball.

I like the way Slicefixer answered becuase he explained his reasons thoroughly and not in a condescending way. Hayam, it seems morad tgm ... has this mystique which for some reason is now slightly annoying and elitist to me. Why don't they publish why not give the general golfer the benefit of the doubt that they might understand.

Hayam I do appreciate the responses and I know you mean well by your answers. I just wanted more info and I actually went to the links you have on your signature.

thanks great site great info by everyone

Just watched the Heath Slocum video with Blake. Is it just me or does that seem kinda weird, forced or creepy? Can't explain why just did to me. Maybe the weird terms used.

[hoganfan924]

Quote

it seems morad tgm ... has this mystique which for some reason is now slightly annoying and elitist to me. Why don't they publish why not give the general golfer the benefit of the doubt that they might understand.

It's unfortunate that it has come across that way to you. I can attest to the fact that Mac O'grady(MORAD developer) is an extremely down to earth and gracious gentleman. I spent 3 1/2 days with him that were non-stop (a couple of days went from 7am to 9pm)- the guy is a dynamo! Extremely passionate about studying, learning and teaching. Even though I was the least "credentialed" student at his school (5 pro's there and 2 am's) he didn't treat me any differently or shortchange me of his time and attention. Mac says that his MORAD findings are complete and ready for publication but that he is working on a novel ("Seve, the Commisioner") and is trying to get that published first. Personally, I'm a bit skeptical about whether he will ever publish a book on MORAD. If you want to know why I think this, you'll have to PM me.

I won't claim to know much about TGM, but these recent posts have motivated my to go back and study my "The Golfing Machine" (TGM) book once again (extremely confusing book!). As I understand it, the book is a TGM instructors handbook/guidebook and therefore is written in this fashion. It isn't intended for someone to read with no prior training or knowledge of TGM and understand and apply the concepts as it doesn't explain the "one best way" to swing a club, only shows all the possible ways to execute each component of the swing (some of which are compatible and some not). So Homer Kelly, the author, trained a handful of instructors and certified them in TGM. This is why TGM is so elusive to most golfers and why so few have heard of it - very few instructors can teach it! Essentially, the same issue exists with MORAD. Mac has trained certain instructors, and as I understand "certified" a handful of them to teach it (I found an article where Mike Bender states that he was certified by Mac). So yes, TGM is published and you can buy the book, but good luck understanding it, it reads like a physics textbook! MORAD - not published and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting!

Quote

........anything else and your just "parroting" somebody else's theories or "imagining" up some of your own and "milking"/"using" their talent and previous hard work to benefit YOURSELF...........

Slicefixer,

While he didn't come out directly and say it, I suspect that your quote above is the exact reason Plummer and Bennet are "out of the program" as Mac put it.

Quote

but what I WANT to see are some kid's that "THEY" started with from SCRATCH.......let's see how well those kid's swing the club......strike the ball......IMOP that's the TRUE "test" of how good a teacher is in reality...

Mac shared one of his dreams with me which is to take 100 inner city black kids (with some pre-screening I'm sure for athletic ability and motivation) and get them into a golf program where Mac will teach them the MORAD swing, short game and putting and have them take the tour by storm! That doesn't sound very elitist to me! Just the opposite, in fact. Based on Mac's background, this dream of his might well be his ideal way to thumb his nose at the PGA and the PGA tour (and his view of their "elitism").

[hayam]

Spider,

I like you wish MORAD is published but last I heard it would not be although the research is complete, due to scrutiny of the Unknown, Like THE STATUS TGM have gone through. TGM till today is still widely misunderstood. Let alone Morad which require TGM to undertand .( Yikes, TGM is already too hard to understand, what will general public say). You can guess Mac wont bother to published something which will not be appreciated.

I am just trying to let u understand a complex thing. In ANY good golf swing you need few things.

club travel on plane , meaning amount of axis tilt, your arm fold back or bend or less bend, lift up or down . then something changes. The plane direction. angle , Face directions, FEEL ..all changes .

Clubface square to target when the ball leaves the clubhead. Different rate of release will yield different flight pattern.

Elbow, wrists, armpit Not totally releasing prior to impact for good compression.

So... Meaning if the guy is already playing good golf. Let alone a Hacker who don't have form and just compensate everything. and he changes ONE thing like staying centered.. He have to change many things to get the same results to be on plane, etc.

Sorry i sounded harsh.I really didn't mean to. But GOlf is Brutal.

Now to understand MORAD.. would you pick up a TGM and understand?


Edit : You watched the Heath Solcum ? Yes the swing doesn't look graceful and forced. But he is the lowest scoring average in the PGA tour... Staying centered certainly doesn't look that fluid to me thats one of the weakness of the model.( in my opinion) but it gives more accuracy, well look at his lag, power, and compression.

To be frank.. I didn't understand what was Mark doing with Heath really..

[spider]

Hoganfan924 and Hayam,

Both excellent answers and really great responses in my opinion. Exactly what I was looking for. The insight an individual such as myself would never know without your explanations.

I really appreciate it and even though the question started as curiousty about golf world article led to tgm, morad and Mac. Amazing what I learned just from these posts.

I think the views and opinions from all you were very enlightening.

Hayam I dont' mind harsh and the last post was really good.

thanks again. I really like it when you all debate as well. I like this part of the forum best when talking about different theories not just hey review my swing. So while I do not propose to know the answers... I like to hear all the different opinions and learn.

[hayam]

As galant as it may sound..

I only wish with some of the wasted time in the forum . Blabbering .. my forum post can be a little useful to some people . And open up more choices. Choices is power.
its just a wish, and also a selfish motive to justify that I won't feel my time invested in such forum a "total waste of time"

[hoganfan924]

hayam, on Apr 27 2007, 07:54 PM, said:

To be frank.. I didn't understand what was Mark doing with Heath really..

Hayam,

Thanks for the Heath Slocum video, it was very good. I happen to think that this type of swing (very similar to Aaron Baddeley) is very aesthetically beautiful because of it's simplicity. It looked to me from the video that Mark was trying to get Heath to clear out his left hip with rotation rather than a lateral move forward. Because video is 2-dimensional, I think most amateurs who have never seen a PGA tournament (or Hooters, or Nationwide) in person don't understand how rotary a truly good golf swing is. The fact that guys like Heath, Aaron, Zack Johnson, etc. always seem to be working on their rotation should be a hint to all of us!

I wish MORAD were published as well. A shame that it isn't but I think I understand why (same as the point you made earlier and a little more). Mac has a lot of "mad scientist" in his personality and this type of person is always caught in the conundrum between holding onto their hard earned information (which benefits very few people- but allows them to maintain control) and giving out their information, which could help many more people but then is ripe for misinterpretation and abuse (probably what Homer Kelley experienced). The "dilemma of the inventor" is what I call it. Although I'm no psychologist, my Father was this same type of personality and died with 45 US patents to his name which never earned him a dime. Mac has a very similar personality IMHO.

[Asleep]

So much to respond to.....

It's best not to combine TGM with MORAD as they are quite different in many ways. Mac is eternally grateful to Mr. Kelley for their relationship and Mr. Kelley's ideas on the golf swing. But MORAD does not embrace everything in TGM by any stretch.

Also, best not to view Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett as spokesmen for MORAD. Much of what they teach is of their own design and not MORAD's (i.e., the practice drill Elk was doing when Slicefixer saw him ). People have shown a amazingly consistent tendency to get 2 or 3 "Aha!"/lightbulb-over-the-head revelations on the swing from Mac and then run off to be a "golf star." Not only did they not get the whole "book", they weren't even halfway through. You cannot get all of anything difficult in a few days or a few weeks or a few months---not golf, not the law, not football, not medicine, not relationships, not investing, not raising kids, etc.

MORAD does not advocate moving toward the target on the backswing nor backward in the downswing---no way, no how. There are myriad other concepts put forth here and other places purported to be MORAD based that are not.

Mac is in great shape and getting better, and he can still strike the ball with the best---I have recent video of such....amazing. His arsenal of specialty shots is....well, it just leaves you speechless. All the surgeries ( numbering into the 20s ) have left their mark, for sure, but he has rebounded nicely. The book is awaiting science to support the model, and that takes time & money. The novels are on track, as well, and pretty entertaining.


...and Slicefixer's posts are an invaluable resource.

[slicefixer]

Asleep........HOW did Mac tear up his arm and back? Car wreck? I've heard several different versions, but, I KNOW he's hurt as the latest video I have of him shows it.........as I've said many, many times the exhibition I witnessed by him in the mid/late 80's was nothing short of phenominal.......best I've ever seen in fact and I've been fortunate enough to see Trevino in his prime and Moe/Hogan after their's........he was simply amazing.......the righty/lefty deal was simply incredible........hell, I can hit shots reasonably well left handed as most good players can up to a point/club, but, there was literally NO difference between the "sides"....BOTH PUUUUURE...........in fact, viewed on video you'd have sworn he was using a mirror/camera trick........

[hoganfan924]

Asleep, on Apr 30 2007, 06:04 PM, said:

The book is awaiting science to support the model, and that takes time & money. The novels are on track, as well, and pretty entertaining.

Asleep,

Agree with you 100% on almost all your points. Here's what I have issue with in the above quote.

(this quote directly from Mac's website):

Quote

The M.O.R.A.D. research study was funded and researched by Mr. O'Grady. It's objective was simple. To evaluate and appraise Mr. Kelley's body of knowledge and to further our own independent examination in the biomechanics of the golf swing which governs the golf ball in all of its variances of direction, trajectory and distance. Each of the important elements required in the repertoire of a classic golf swing are accurately depicted in the Sam Snead, Ben Hogan and Jack Nicklaus swing models. The M.O.R.A.D. research thoroughly explains and evaluates their sequence of movements and other players too. The research also mapped out the biomechanics of the short game and putting. Seve Ballesteros, Hubert Green, and Lee Trevino depict the short game models. While Jack Nicklaus, Billy Casper, Tom Watson, Tiger Woods, and Isao Aoki represent the classification of the putting models. In March of 2005, the M.O.R.A.D Investigation concluded its twenty-one year study. In 2006, the full text of the research data and its findings will be released in book form and software programs.

So his own website says the research is complete and a book and software will be published in 2006. Where the heck is it? Do you mean to tell me that Mac has spent 21 years on a "research study" that was concluded 2 years ago, to quote his own website but now it needs to be supported by science? I thought that's what "research study" meant to begin with! According to Mac, the MORAD acronym stands for "Mankind's Objective Research And Development." So we must conclude then that Mac hasn't done an Obective research study at all, he has done investigations and developed a hypothesis that now needs a true university led, scientific research study to validate. When Mac failed to barely explain his "research," I (politely) questioned him on it and asked him whether the "research" led him to the conclusion that Sam Snead was the model or whether there was a pre-supposition that Snead had the ideal golf swing to model. Basically Mac sheepishly pulled the "dumb jock" excuse of (paraphrasing) "I'm just a golfer and when I started, I didn't know anything about scientifically valid methodology." - Admitting that he picked Snead as his model before validating it.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I thought Mac was a terrific instructor and felt my time and money spent was well worth it. Sam Snead had a great golf swing and is a great model. What I took exception to was that Mac bills himself as having conducted "research and development" when what he really did was break down Sam Snead's golf swing and pay his Dentist buddy to do some library study of all of the functions of the joints in the body so that he could have a better understanding of what goes on in a golf swing. That sure a heck doesn't qualify as research in my book and I should know, I'm an Engineer that has actually done research (in another field) and am published. Mac calling his study "R&D" (based on his own shaky explanations) borders on charlatanism IMHO, and I (and probably many others) have signed up for his school based in part upon these questionable claims on his website. That's the real truth about why he still hasn't published IMO.

Even though it might sound like it, I'm really not pissed about my experience at all, it was well worth it and I would (and often do) recommend Mac's school to others. I just wish Mac would come clean about what he's really done and make that clear on his website.

[Asleep]

slicefixer, on Apr 30 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

Asleep........HOW did Mac tear up his arm and back?

The back problems were a result of spondylosis or spondylothesis...I forget which. It took him off the tour, and that's when his coaching really ramped up. When playing, many pros on tour would wait for Mac to finish practicing to get some help. Mac coached up to 40 players at one time when he was sidelined.....a darn healthy percentage of players on tour approached Mac at some point, with the notable exception of Nicklaus ( who Mac admired as a great player & sportsman. )

Mac had many unsuccessful surguries in attempts to alleviate the symptoms. Finally, another doctor postulated the prior surguries had been performed on the wrong side of his spine and he was able to alleviate most of the problems. Mac hurt elbow in a fall while jogging. It won't straighten fully unless you stand on it, which I did.

[slicefixer]

hoganfan924, on Apr 30 2007, 06:21 PM, said:

Asleep, on Apr 30 2007, 06:04 PM, said:

The book is awaiting science to support the model, and that takes time & money. The novels are on track, as well, and pretty entertaining.

Asleep,

Agree with you 100% on almost all your points. Here's what I have issue with in the above quote.

(this quote directly from Mac's website):

Quote

The M.O.R.A.D. research study was funded and researched by Mr. O'Grady. It's objective was simple. To evaluate and appraise Mr. Kelley's body of knowledge and to further our own independent examination in the biomechanics of the golf swing which governs the golf ball in all of its variances of direction, trajectory and distance. Each of the important elements required in the repertoire of a classic golf swing are accurately depicted in the Sam Snead, Ben Hogan and Jack Nicklaus swing models. The M.O.R.A.D. research thoroughly explains and evaluates their sequence of movements and other players too. The research also mapped out the biomechanics of the short game and putting. Seve Ballesteros, Hubert Green, and Lee Trevino depict the short game models. While Jack Nicklaus, Billy Casper, Tom Watson, Tiger Woods, and Isao Aoki represent the classification of the putting models. In March of 2005, the M.O.R.A.D Investigation concluded its twenty-one year study. In 2006, the full text of the research data and its findings will be released in book form and software programs.

So his own website says the research is complete and a book and software will be published in 2006. Where the heck is it? Do you mean to tell me that Mac has spent 21 years on a "research study" that was concluded 2 years ago, to quote his own website but now it needs to be supported by science? I thought that's what "research study" meant to begin with! According to Mac, the MORAD acronym stands for "Mankind's Objective Research And Development." So we must conclude then that Mac hasn't done an Obective research study at all, he has done investigations and developed a hypothesis that now needs a true university led, scientific research study to validate. When Mac failed to barely explain his "research," I (politely) questioned him on it and asked him whether the "research" led him to the conclusion that Sam Snead was the model or whether there was a pre-supposition that Snead had the ideal golf swing to model. Basically Mac sheepishly pulled the "dumb jock" excuse of (paraphrasing) "I'm just a golfer and when I started, I didn't know anything about scientifically valid methodology." - Admitting that he picked Snead as his model before validating it.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I thought Mac was a terrific instructor and felt my time and money spent was well worth it. Sam Snead had a great golf swing and is a great model. What I took exception to was that Mac bills himself as having conducted "research and development" when what he really did was break down Sam Snead's golf swing and pay his Dentist buddy to do some library study of all of the functions of the joints in the body so that he could have a better understanding of what goes on in a golf swing. That sure a heck doesn't qualify as research in my book and I should know, I'm an Engineer that has actually done research (in another field) and am published. Mac calling his study "R&D" (based on his own shaky explanations) borders on charlatanism IMHO, and I (and probably many others) have signed up for his school based in part upon these questionable claims on his website. That's the real truth about why he still hasn't published IMO.

Even though it might sound like it, I'm really not pissed about my experience at all, it was well worth it and I would (and often do) recommend Mac's school to others. I just wish Mac would come clean about what he's really done and make that clear on his website.

WHAT he said.......hehehe

Asleep, on Apr 30 2007, 06:54 PM, said:

slicefixer, on Apr 30 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

Asleep........HOW did Mac tear up his arm and back?

The back problems were a result of spondylosis or spondylothesis...I forget which. It took him off the tour, and that's when his coaching really ramped up. When playing, many pros on tour would wait for Mac to finish practicing to get some help. Mac coached up to 40 players at one time when he was sidelined.....a darn healthy percentage of players on tour approached Mac at some point, with the notable exception of Nicklaus ( who Mac admired as a great player & sportsman. )

Mac had many unsuccessful surguries in attempts to alleviate the symptoms. Finally, another doctor postulated the prior surguries had been performed on the wrong side of his spine and he was able to alleviate most of the problems. Mac hurt elbow in a fall while jogging. It won't straighten fully unless you stand on it, which I did.

Jeeeeeez.......stood on his arm? Thanks for the information as I knew you could set me straight.......

[Asleep]

hoganfan924, on Apr 30 2007, 06:21 PM, said:

Mac sheepishly pulled the "dumb jock" excuse of (paraphrasing) "I'm just a golfer and when I started, I didn't know anything about scientifically valid methodology." - Admitting that he picked Snead as his model before validating it.

The "excuse" was the truth. Mac, professional athlete, started with Homer's work and Snead.....back in 1984 after Mr. Kelley's death.

Quote

Please don't take this the wrong way. I thought Mac was a terrific instructor and felt my time and money spent was well worth it. What I took exception to was that Mac bills himself as having conducted "research and development" when what he really did was break down Sam Snead's golf swing and pay his Dentist buddy to do some library study of all of the functions of the joints in the body so that he could have a better understanding of what goes on in a golf swing...Mac calling his study "R&D" (based on his own shaky explanations) borders on charlatanism IMHO...

Let's see, he's a great instructor and your time & money was well spent----learning the golf swing from the charlatain.....c'mon. If all you got out of your time with Mac was Sam Snead, you weren't paying attention. Mac appreciates much of Mr. Snead's swing, but the MORAD model is an amalgamation of much more than that in 2006.

Mac's life work is "the ongoing investigative study of the art & science of the golf swing." He is neither a professor nor a scientist----he's just trying to further what Mr. Kelley started years ago and what Mr. Kelley would have continued to develop. TGM is a book, not a footnoted paper, and was criticized for not being supported. A few of Mac's ideas that form the basis for his understanding of certain mechanics in the MORAD model are based on logical assumptions---hypothesis unsupported by any science. His goal is to publish something that answers most, if not all, of the "Why.....but, why.....but, why.....but, why....." Many have said this golf swing "research/support/publish" goal is unreachable....he's trying anyway.

Quote

In March of 2005, the M.O.R.A.D Investigation concluded its twenty-one year study. In 2006, the full text of the research data and its findings will be released in book form and software programs.

I don't know when he'll publish and I'm not holding my breath until he does. He's ruffled more than a few feathers in high places and within organizations over the years by standing true to what he believed and being outspoken about it. I do understand that there are more than a few people waiting to find fault with anything Mac does.


You're from Michigan. A PGA pro who won Michigan Player and Teacher of the Year (and was whisker close to Q-Schooling it to the Tour) was so excited after the first day he couldn't contain himself. He got some answers to questions he'd been asking all of his life. It was great to watch him enjoy "one of the best experiences of my life." Next day he was mapping his shots in MORAD terminology and excuting each to perfection.....red-faced with an uncontrollable, ear-to-ear grin like a kid in a candy store.

Mac knows the golf swing and was given the nickname "the guru" by some of his peers (he's not the source for that info). Many say he was one of the best ball-strikers of all time. He loves teaching kids......we had some real fun teaching a kid the swing and watching him incorporate a hand-full of changes in just minutes: "their new brains learn so quickly." Mac is also a unique individual who dances to the beat of his own drum. He's often misunderstood, and he's okay with that. Like all of us, he's the result of the entirety of his life experiences----both good and bad. He's going to disappoint some people: he's not perfect. I like him and appreciate his drive and idealism. And I could watch him hit golf balls.....and listen to him tell stories...... for a long, long time.

hoganfan924, on Apr 30 2007, 06:21 PM, said:

Mac sheepishly pulled the "dumb jock" excuse of (paraphrasing) "I'm just a golfer and when I started, I didn't know anything about scientifically valid methodology." - Admitting that he picked Snead as his model before validating it.

The "excuse" was the truth. Mac, professional athlete, started with Homer's work and Snead.....back in 1984 after Mr. Kelley's death.

Quote

Please don't take this the wrong way. I thought Mac was a terrific instructor and felt my time and money spent was well worth it. What I took exception to was that Mac bills himself as having conducted "research and development" when what he really did was break down Sam Snead's golf swing and pay his Dentist buddy to do some library study of all of the functions of the joints in the body so that he could have a better understanding of what goes on in a golf swing...Mac calling his study "R&D" (based on his own shaky explanations) borders on charlatanism IMHO...

Let's see, he's a great instructor and your time & money was well spent----learning the golf swing from the charlatan.....c'mon. If all you got out of your time with Mac was Sam Snead, you weren't paying attention. Mac appreciates much of Mr. Snead's swing, but the MORAD model is an amalgamation of much more than that in 2006.

Mac's life work is "the ongoing investigative study of the art & science of the golf swing." He is neither a professor nor a scientist----he's just trying to further what Mr. Kelley started years ago and what Mr. Kelley would have continued to develop. TGM is a book, not a footnoted paper, and was criticized for not being supported. A few of Mac's ideas that form the basis for his understanding of certain mechanics in the MORAD model are based on logical assumptions---hypothesis unsupported by any science. His goal is to publish something that answers most, if not all, of the "Why.....but, why.....but, why.....but, why....." Many have said this golf swing "research/support/publish" goal is unreachable....he's trying anyway.

Quote

In March of 2005, the M.O.R.A.D Investigation concluded its twenty-one year study. In 2006, the full text of the research data and its findings will be released in book form and software programs.

I don't know when he'll publish and I'm not holding my breath until he does. He's ruffled more than a few feathers in high places and within organizations over the years by standing true to what he believed and being outspoken about it. I do understand that there are more than a few people waiting to find fault with anything Mac does.


You're from Michigan. A PGA pro who won Michigan Player and Teacher of the Year (and was whisker close to Q-Schooling it to the Tour) was so excited after the first day he couldn't contain himself. He got some answers to questions he'd been asking all of his life. It was great to watch him enjoy "one of the best experiences of my life." Next day he was mapping his shots in MORAD terminology and executing each to perfection.....red-faced with an uncontrollable, ear-to-ear grin like a kid in a candy store.

Mac knows the golf swing and was given the nickname "the guru" by some of his peers ( he's not the source for that ). Many say he was one of the best ball-strikers of all time. He loves teaching kids......we had some real fun teaching a kid the swing and watching him incorporate a hand-full of changes in just minutes: "their new brains learn so quickly." Mac is also a unique individual who dances to the beat of his own drum. He's often misunderstood, and he's okay with that. Like all of us, he's the result of the entirety of his life experiences----both good and bad. He's going to disappoint some people: he's not perfect. I like him and appreciate his drive and idealism. And I could watch him hit golf balls.....and listen to him tell stories...... for a long, long time.

[slicefixer]

Asleep.......I have GREAT admiration for "Phil McGleno"....(I think that's right...) I just get a bit tired of folk's who studied TGM/MORAD (or any other way/method of teaching) a bit who are CONSTANTLY reciting/parroting phrases/terms that they've memorized and who most probably could never take a beginner to a scratch player if their life depended on it........hell, they couldn't teach a bird to fly.......you KNOW the type.......there are a bunch of very, very good TGM teachers.......I know a few.......and the one's I know rarely use the phrase TGM or Mr. Kelley's name.......they use the KNOWLEDGE they gained from Mr. Kelley/TGM (or Mac ) and form their own way of teaching using this knowledge to improve thier own students......and themselves......but to sit around and "parrot" something for $$$$ without TRULY knowing the golf swing makes me want to puke.......I TRULY believe a person should teach because they LOVE to teach and NOT for money.......in my experience those type of teachers are without a big "tour" ego and could care less if they are on some "top 100" list or are the "tour guru".......Don't get me wrong, I charge for lessons, but, my world doesn't revolve around it and if I oneday make a pile of it I'll guarantee you that I'll get as much satisfaction out of watching a beginner hit their first solid shot as standing on some PGA Tour practice tee........Mr. Penick had the right attitude IMOP.......he taught because he TRULY loved GOLF and helping GOLFERS and dedicated his life to both........I only wish all golf instructors had the same attitude......

I apologize for sounding a bit sanctimonious, but, I truly feel this way and needed to "vent"......hehehe.... (and I don't want anyone who admires Mac/TGM to think I'm in anyway dissin' either one.....I DO wish Mac would publish his findings as I'm SURE I'd learn something new! ) One other thing, I bet he DOES have some GREAT stories.....I can ONLY imagine.......LOL.......I think it was him who called Beman "a lil' Hitler" or something similar.......can't remember the exact quote, but, it was funny as hell and somewhat dead on......

[Asleep]

slicefixer, on Apr 30 2007, 11:48 PM, said:

Asleep.......

Yeah, that's really much more TGM than MORAD, which is a different animal altogether. TGM has it's own unique & confusing language that must be learned....kind of like scientology. Everyone knows about the different positions in the swing...some use 6, some use 8, Mac uses 10. There's a few other terms that you already know and have used in other posts I've read. So, anyone trying to obfuscate the truth with gobbledygook terminology is probably covering a lack of comprehension.

I don't take your meaning in the wrong way at all, and it's cool if someone doesn't like Mac or disagrees with his style or thinks he's a little too different. It's a free world.

Mac did have a few run-ins with Deane Beman, who turned out to be "a little Hitler" whose very questionable decisions/actions became public further down the road. Mac criticized Beman, Beman fined him, Mac wouldn't pay and took it public as he felt he was within his rights to disagree. Beman was stuck because he didn't want to suspend Mac over such a trivial incident, but he was going to have his way. So when Mac won his next tournament, Beman "intercepted" the winner's check and deducted the $5,000 fine. Mac called him "a thief with a capital T." In today's world, Mac would have good cause for legal action.......fined without any due process (the rules on conduct weren't clear at that time.) Mac filed a $12 million dollar lawsuit against the PGA---what he wanted was for Beman to admit his actions were procedurally wrong. Mac was pissed--he had a good case, too. After some time, Trevino talked Mac down from the suit.

Mac is/was quite the quipster. He is quoted many times on the game of golf and other subjects. He's actually pretty funny.

Reading back, I need to apologize to the topic starter. We seem to have hijacked his thread here----my bad.