[belote]

After reading a lot of posts on here, I have begun to see why Golf is not growing as a game. There are many opinions expressed on this board that are elitist and demeaning that are going to ruin golf.

Golf - a GAME in which a player using special clubs attempts to sink a ball with as few strokes as possible into each of the 9 or 18 successive holes on a course. - Merriam-Webster. Golf is a game, just like chess or baseball or basketball. Yes, there are many people who play it and make a ton of money playing this game, but odds are that this will never be your career, it will be something you do for personal enjoyment. Most of us know how much fun golf can be, but there is a widely held perception among the public that golf is not for the masses, and many people on this board are perpetuating this misconception.
I am actively involved in an ongoing heated discussion about range etiquette, and the expectations and reactions of some people are ridiculous and highlight the egos and attitudes that are becoming all to common at local facilities. To think that everyone must be silent in order for you to work through your "progression" is absurd. More than a couple members brag about how they pull out their driver (out of order in their progression) and proceed to bomb it increasingly longer distances past the beginners that are attempting to have fun around them in an attempt to embarrass them. These attitudes make people not want to come back, and I will discuss the repercussions of that in a second. There is also an ever-present attitude on here about people who don't have the latest equipment like us. FYI, most people aren't fortunate enough to buy the newest offerings from Callaway or Taylormade or Titleist, and there are more people who play with top flights than there are that play proV1's
Most of us didn't obtain our love for the game by practicing our progression in silence with our fathers, or playing a round with the kid next door who talks about nothing but how amazing his clubs are, or playing the rules to T betting with our friends. We started to play the game because it was a challenge and it was fun. I think that many people have lost that fun, and now every outing is about showing off how good they are and making people feel bad at the same time.
If this game continues to shrink, so will the diverse offerings in the world of golf. Taylormade doesn't make most of its revenue off of Superquad TP's or the TP line in general. I'd venture to say that they make more money off sales from places like Dicks Sporting Goods and the Draw product line than the TP line overall. Until recently, Callaway made almost 100% "game improvement irons". Titleist doesn't just sell proV1's, they sell crappy balls for sale only in Wal Mart. All of this comes from people who aren't as good as you, but just want to have fun, and the same goes for all the great courses this country has to offer. While there are great private courses where it costs a hundred grand to be a member, theres a Bethpage Black.
Enjoy the game, but don't ruin it for others. After all, it is their dollars that make things better for you too.

[Lefty44]

Good post.

[arkstorm]

I don't disagree with the gist of what you're saying, that elitism is bad for golf. But you cite some incorrect facts and misinterpret golfwrx members' interest in the equipment and etiquette for elitism and that is an unfair characterization.

First of all it is incorrect that golf is not growing as a game. Just the opposite is true and has been fueled by what's been dubbed the "tiger" effect. There is a growing interest in golf among younger kids especially now that the most recognizable professional athlete in the world is a golfer.

Golf certainly is a game (as defined by Merriam-Webster), however, it is wholly unique amongst games in that it has rules of play and rules of etiquette. You seem to have a problem with both. The etiquette of golf promotes respect for the game and respect for those playing the game. Now, it is ridiculous to demand library-like silence at the driving range but it is certainly not beyond reason to ask that a generally reserved demeanor be maintained similarly to while playing. The driving range is a place to practice golf -- why not practice the etiquette at the same time too?

Playing the rules to a T, as you mention, is absolutely necessary to golf. If not for the rules, golf would be a silly enterprise. And if you're going to follow the rules, why not follow all of them? Otherwise, how do you pick and choose which rules to follow and which to disregard?

As for other facts you cite -- Taylormade's club sales, Dick's Sports, Callaway having once been a game improvement company, this game continuing to shrink... I disagree with these opinions which you are couching as fact but they are not germane to this issue and are probably best left to discuss in other threads.

Golfwrx is for golf aficionados. Most of the members here have a particularized interest in golfing and golf equipment that is much greater than that of the average golfer. While I won't speak in absolutes because there are certainly exceptions, the members here are not elitists, they are knowledgeable and they discuss their knowledge and/or amass more here on these pages. It is doubtful that many members here like to embarrass neophytes at the driving range, or brag to others that their clubs are better and how dare they play such inferior equipment. Here on golfwrx these discussions are king, but they are rarely intended to disparage anyone who can't afford a Superquad TP with a Matrix Ozik shaft.

Good discussion can easily be chilled in the name of eliminating elitism. But are we elitists? Or do we just engage in good, sometimes heated discussion?

Personally, I feel that promoting a lax attitude for the rules of play and etiquette of golf is much more dangerous to the growth of the sport than rhetoric which is mistaken for elitism here on golfwrx.

[raehtz10]

"Well, I believe in the soul, the ****, the ****, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days. Goodnight."



Also, all the stats I have heard is that there are nearly as many people taking up golf each year as there are leaving.

[boon44]

raehtz10, on Apr 23 2007, 12:29 PM, said:

"Well, I believe in the soul, the ****, the ****, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days. Goodnight."

Bull Durham...Classic....


I believe that as in any recreational activity your going to have your once a month players and your 5-7 days a week players, each with their own agenda's and goals. There's room for everyone to achieve what they desire in the game of golf.

Have fun and enjoy the ride!

[smithg1053]

I think rather than adopt an attitude akin to being condesending we might be better served as a community to adopt a policy of education. I would ask each of us to remember when we FIRST started playing this game...did you, before you even tried to hit a ball, buy a book on appropriate behavior at the golf course? How about the first book being the USGA rules? I think the honest answer for most of us (certainly for me) is no. You learned those things from others either by observation or someone helping you understand.

I started golf in the 8th grade...because I got a job caddying at a local country club, and the caddymaster took the new kids out and while he played a round of golf with a member, we learned the function and behavior expected as well as the rules that pertained to our actions.

My concern with what is happening in the game today is not the fact that there are many trying it now because of the increased visability (thank you Tiger), but that those trying it sometimes haven't bothered with learning that playing by the rules as well as appropriate on-course behavior is as important a part of the game as being able to hit a ball effectively. Case in point was a week ago Friday playing with a friend who brought 2 buddies along. Both were probably lucky they could break 120, but one was obviously familiar with the rules and behavior...and one was a total nightmare...specifically hitting off of a tee and the ball headed directly for another tee with people on it, and not even thinking to yell fore....which myself and another person did after realizing he wasn't. What's more...when I and another player said something to him about it...he was defensive...which I suppose would be the natural reaction when you have been called on something that you didn't do that is really common sense.

2 holes later he comes trotting up to the teebox after the 3 of us with a brand new Nike One Platinum, tosses at another player and says "I know how much you like these". Immediately the other player hits the ball off the tee. About 1 minute later a golfer in the foursome behind us comes over as we are walking off the tee and wants to know if anyone has seen his ball...a Nike Platinum, which he said should have been around the green somewhere. I asked the person who had the ball where he found the ball...you guessed it...he picked it up. This time he was chastized by all of us...and this time he really didn't even seem to care.

My point is that we may see people who because many on this board are experienced golfers, we tend to critize and condemn, but perhaps they haven't had anyone attempt to help them? Sure...there are those who simply will never "get it" and that is one thing...but many people are exploring this sport for the first time...and perhaps they haven't had the chance to learn all that is really involved in the game. It is the opportunity to help...now...if that help (on condition it is offered as such, and you are not being some sort of jerk in delivery) is taken as you being eliteist, then that is their problem, and they will find out soon enough that a lot of people won't be playing with them....but I think handled correctly it can be offered as friendly advice and help...you might see some surprising results.

When I was in 8th grade...learning was easy...I was a kid and didn't know a thing....so someone trying to help me was always taken with the attitude of being receptive, after all...at that age you really don't figure high on anyone's totem pole so you usually listen and learn anyway when it is anyone significantly older than you talking. It's a completely different story when someone is older...they have a job...maybe a family...and figure they probably know most of the things they feel like they should...so offering instruction and advice is selling to a much tougher audience unless they are paying for it (where you learn because you are paying!). Still trying to convey a message to someone in a way that if you ask yourself "would I receive it positively" helps the game. Sending the message as a "I know more than you and you are an idiot" isn't listened to by anyone.

[jcgrcya]

Well said smithg1053.

[Gxgolfer]

Everyone has an opinion and a point of view. In order for someone to have enough courage to make the leap and post their opinion, they have to feel compelled enough to do so. GolfWRX draws from a very large cross section of the golfing public and there are a few factors to consider besides the ones already stated.

1) Last month over 80k unique viewers visited the site and made 39,641 posts.
2) The % of active posters is a distillation of those who are interested and motivated enough to do so.
3) The notion that most people here have the latest and greatest is factually off. That's what most people are interested in but, if you look at our Member WITB, its far from true.
4) Because of Ebay and places like our classifieds, newer equipment can be had in fairly good supply and at dramatically different prices. Technology hasn't changed much so the availability of good equipment in near condition is plentiful.
5) I am curious about the elitism you see. Every site I have visited have passionate people about various topics. I don't see people being shunned, name called, or feeling superior. I do see alot of younger members who are learning from more experience Pros that we have here.
6) Golf is an expensive sport to play and this is a very large board with a large pool of users. I hear some comments about bias but when I look at posting history or ask for specific examples, they are a fraction of the greater whole.

[littlepingman]

Alot of people(including myself) have put in countless hours working on and developing their games. To criticize someone for doing that is ludicrous. I approach the game with the utmost respect, not only for other players, but for the course, the rules, and etiquette. Am I not supposed to practice at a range if someone else is there that can't play like me? Its been my experience that alot of people appreciate watching someone like myself hit golf shots. I have on many occasions had someone who was probably just beginning walk over and watch me hit some shots and maybe even ask a little advice about something. Which I don't mind at all. It makes my day, just as it probably makes the day of the other person.

[hoganfan924]

littlepingman, on Apr 23 2007, 04:47 PM, said:

I have on many occasions had someone who was probably just beginning walk over and watch me hit some shots and maybe even ask a little advice about something. Which I don't mind at all. It makes my day, just as it probably makes the day of the other person.

Well said, Pingman.

I've had many similar experiences (had one just last week) as I'm sure most of the decent players on this site have had. I think it's important to have an "attitude of gratitude" for the fact that we can play this game, can afford it and have the facilities to do so. I first started playing on dog tracks in the most blue collar town in America (Flint, Mi) so guys playing in T-shirts and Jeans was a common site and doesn't bother me a bit (at the local dog track). To expect quiet on the range I agree is ridiculous. In my experience (I realize this is a very broad generalization), it's usually the best players who are the most helpful and humble (because they know how cruel, difficult and exasperating this game can be) and it's the one's who think they are better than they are that have a chip on their shoulders and exhibit elitist attitudes (always best to let your game do the talking (and up the stakes) when you get paired with one of those!)

Golf is a game, yes, a game of honor, integrity and rules. Proper etiquette plays a major part in the integrity of the game. But we must educate, before we criticize the ignorant. Show the newbies how to properly repair a ball mark, to leave 'found' balls on the course if there is any chance it belongs to someone still playing the course, to rake bunkers, replace (or fill) divots, not stand in someone's line, where to stand when another player is putting, etc, etc. I play many walk-on rounds at low rent courses (<$25 for 18) and often get paired with inexperienced and poor players. Some of these rounds have been the most pleasant of my life because I got an opportunity to meet new people enthusiastic about playing the game, I got to lead by example and offer advice when I was asked and in a couple of cases got the opportunity to show how well the game can be played (my only double eagle came in one of these rounds). One of my more pleasant rounds was when I was paired with an older lady who shot around a 70 - for 9 holes! She was a delightful playing partner. Thinking back on it, I actually remember these experiences better than most of the rounds I've ever played. More people should try it - that's one of the best ways to grow the game IMHO.

BTW, the popularity of golf has contracted in recent years, not expanded based on # of rounds played and golf ball sales. I'm certain it is in large part due to the ever increasing cost (remember when you could buy a complete set of clubs for half the cost of one of today's drivers?). Making others feel inferior because they are playing old or inexpensive equipment is sure to drive them away from the game. Why don't we all go to our basements right now and donate those old clubs to our local First Tee or volunteer a little time helping to teach those youngsters the etiquette and rules of the game? That shouldn't be too difficult if you love this game enough that you spend time surfing this site.

[DemolitionMan]

Some interesting posts here.

For one, GolfWRX, while very popular, growing, and a lot of members, it is not representative of what is going on in golf, nor is a pointer that golf is somehow to elitist for its own good.

Two, and let me lay this down with much emphasis once and for all, golf is not growing. Anyone who wants to debate this should first check facts and research. If that's a problem, I can point you in a direction of a study that makes it quite clear. The so called Tiger effect is long over. The best measure of the growth of golf is rounds played per course. With very few exceptions, rounds played are down across the board since 2001. The reasons cited by a survey of golf course operators are an uneven economy, the aftereffects of 9-11 which greatly reduced the traveling golfer market, the increasing time pressure on individuals and families, and abnormally poor weather conditions over the past few years in much of the U.S. Even muni courses which just a few years ago were accustomed to over 100,000 rounds per year look packed to the everyday golfer here even though they are only going at a 70,000 rounds per year clip.

As a good citizen, members here should be encouraging and courteous to others regardless of someone else's experience level. It's true for golf as well as many other aspects of life. If you are not doing your part to improve your community around you then you really have little room to complain. However, that is not a requirement here at GolfWRX to post, hence, the paradox we sometimes perceive.

[charlesdupuy]

arkstorm, on Apr 23 2007, 06:06 PM, said:

I don't disagree with the gist of what you're saying, that elitism is bad for golf. But you cite some incorrect facts and misinterpret golfwrx members' interest in the equipment and etiquette for elitism and that is an unfair characterization.

First of all it is incorrect that golf is not growing as a game. Just the opposite is true and has been fueled by what's been dubbed the "tiger" effect. There is a growing interest in golf among younger kids especially now that the most recognizable professional athlete in the world is a golfer.

Golf certainly is a game (as defined by Merriam-Webster), however, it is wholly unique amongst games in that it has rules of play and rules of etiquette. You seem to have a problem with both. The etiquette of golf promotes respect for the game and respect for those playing the game. Now, it is ridiculous to demand library-like silence at the driving range but it is certainly not beyond reason to ask that a generally reserved demeanor be maintained similarly to while playing. The driving range is a place to practice golf -- why not practice the etiquette at the same time too?

Playing the rules to a T, as you mention, is absolutely necessary to golf. If not for the rules, golf would be a silly enterprise. And if you're going to follow the rules, why not follow all of them? Otherwise, how do you pick and choose which rules to follow and which to disregard?

As for other facts you cite -- Taylormade's club sales, Dick's Sports, Callaway having once been a game improvement company, this game continuing to shrink... I disagree with these opinions which you are couching as fact but they are not germane to this issue and are probably best left to discuss in other threads.

Golfwrx is for golf aficionados. Most of the members here have a particularized interest in golfing and golf equipment that is much greater than that of the average golfer. While I won't speak in absolutes because there are certainly exceptions, the members here are not elitists, they are knowledgeable and they discuss their knowledge and/or amass more here on these pages. It is doubtful that many members here like to embarrass neophytes at the driving range, or brag to others that their clubs are better and how dare they play such inferior equipment. Here on golfwrx these discussions are king, but they are rarely intended to disparage anyone who can't afford a Superquad TP with a Matrix Ozik shaft.

Good discussion can easily be chilled in the name of eliminating elitism. But are we elitists? Or do we just engage in good, sometimes heated discussion?

Personally, I feel that promoting a lax attitude for the rules of play and etiquette of golf is much more dangerous to the growth of the sport than rhetoric which is mistaken for elitism here on golfwrx.

I think I agree with most of what arkstorm is saying. I'm not so fussed about where manufacurers make their money, they sell goods where they can and as the general golfing population needs easy to hit equipment they'll sell this anywhere they can where the general population go and may decide to make a purchase. Also the debate on the growth of golf is up for whoever can get the most up to date statistics, and as far as i'm concerned there are many pros and many cons to the 'Tiger' effect.

The thing that 'rattles' me most about the topic starter's post is the defense of the so called 'fun' at the driving range. As arkstorm suggests, golf is played with etiquette that has to be upheld amongst players, if you don't expect to have laughing and distractions when you play on the course, why should it be acceptable on the range. In my opinion if you go to play or practice a sport then you should know and respect the etiquette and rules, despite this I still see people messing about on the driving range despite the signs that ask for mobile phones to be switched off and to practice with respect for other users of the facility. The people that bug me the most are the beginners that show up and take it in turns to out drive eachother while their friend laughs at their technique and their consistant tops and slices over the fence. Nothing against beginners, just this breed of them, that is no way to imporve your golf game. I've never hit driver out of 'progression' to intimidate these people but should they be put of the game because they've spent half an hour hitting driver nad not found the sweet spot, and i've then peached one with my first shot with the driver, I wouldn't feel any guilt. The fact is that most of the time anyone who cares enough about the game to practice properly is normally hitting it past these people with an 8 iron. The other thing that is distracting and irritates me at the range, are the people who step out onto the gravel to pick up a ball, or even worse the ones that let their kids do it. The ball is moving the fastest when its just come off the club face, if they were to get hit by a ball that close, or even a club, they would be dead or in intensive care. It is again simply a case of reading the signs at the range and using a bit of common sense. I'm all up for encouraging young children to take up golf, and as someone suggests if someone comes over to see you hit balls becasue your playing well, that makes your day and theirs, this could not be more true than for young children. But the adults that take them to the range need to take responsibility for them. Children naturally will play around and make a bit of noise, but they need to learn from the outset that they must show respect for other participants.

Having said all this, those are the main reasons why I do most of my practice at the bottom end of the practice ground at the club i'm a member at. Never anymore than four people down their and they all know the etiquette of the game.

As for the comments on elitists, i'd consider the memebrs here to be enthusiasts not elititsts, and if you are enthusistic about golf they why should you be put down for taking pride in your clubs and expecting other participants of the sport to respect the ethos that the game that you care so much about is played under.

[villa]

Great thread and some good posts. Very valid and informative points.

I don't think it's fair to base any of what's said on this site as reflective as what's happening within the golfing world. Although there's an incredibly diverse mix of people on here it's still essentially a niche site and the emphasis is predominantly on the love of equipment. From the discussions i've had here and the people i've spoken to in person I wouldn't call anyone what I would class as elitist.

On a personal note and certainly here in the U.K, I think the game's becoming less of an elitist sport. It's certainly been a problem in the past but thanks to the Tiger effect and to an extent people like Ian Poulter et al, there are more and more kids wanting to get involved and it's becoming more available to them.

Etiquette is an integral part of the game and always will be but don't confuse it with stuffiness. Etiquette is about being polite and having general respect for those around you. It's not there to take any fun out of the game!

[Hifade]

Great topic here. My only concern, as others have kind of mentioned, is not to "over-generalize" when it comes to blanket statements. Also, Demo is correct, the game is NOT growing and hasn't for many years now. It's clearly declining as many studies indicate. There are several initiatives (Golf 20/20 for one) to help the game grow, but they seem to be countered by many other factors like time, expense and access among others.

Think about this? Where would it be without the apparent "Tiger effect" that has now diminished or without the television contracts that have swelled to enormous heights. Today, golf is all around us yet not growing. TV exposure is at an all time high with almost every major tour being televised nearly every week and with the addition and expansion of The Golf Channel. When I was a kid you would see 2 rounds a week (Sat and Sun) of PGA Tour coverage and that was it. Heck the winner's check was $54,000. Even with the explosiveness witnessed since the 70's, we're still not growing, so think about where the sport could be and it's kind of sad.

[rareguitar]

I say live and let live. Call this elitist if you want but if I am at the local driving range or muni I expect the beginners, horseplay, crappy mats and people just out to have some light hearted fun in a sport they really dont play much (similar to people playing a round of putt putt after a ice cream cone at the DQ). This is cool and before I started playing seriously that was me.

Conversley I have become very serious about the game and my action and I now play and practice at a PGA TPC facility with mostly like minded serious players and for the most part it is all business which I like. This doesnt mean that the "serious facility" is only for the rich either because the difference in price for practicing at either place is nominal.

Two different atmospheres and both are cool just different. If I go to McDonalds am I going to be pissed that I didnt get a great meal, no I realize it is what it is and some times I really like a Big Mac especially with my 5 year old daughter :-). If I want fine dining I know I am not going to get it at Micky D's.

Sometimes people want to make something different than what it is and then complain about it.

RG

[RagingAardvark]

I'm now involved with two sports that are often seen as elitist and snobbish: golf and cycling (road cycling in particular). Both get that moniker fairly and unfairly. I know some snobby golfers, and I know some very open, kind, generous people. The same is true of cycling.

Fact is, both sports can be VERY intimidating for beginners. It's very easy to look down on people that are not as accomplished as you are in a sport, and it's very easy to get wrapped up in your own game or feelings. Heck, I've been as guilty as anyone of making sure that some new racer with a $5000 pro bike gets shellacked in a crit or dropped in a road race, but I like to think I've grown out of that. In either activity now, I go out and have my fun, but if I'm doing it with people I have fun with THEM. I also always wave hi at people when out riding, say "hi, how's it going?" when I pass and act friendly. I'm already better than a good half of the golfers in my league, but it doesn't stop any of us from having fun together.

The trick for me is to really leave my ego at home (and I do mean REALLY). Sunday I went for a ride with a dear friend who is 20 years older than me and his friends. I was far and away the fastest of the bunch, but unlike so many other racers, I didn't feel the need to flog them with it. Joe wants to be the first to the top of the hill? Cool, have at it Joe. Doesn't make me any less of a racer. I know lots of guys that would've made it a point to be the first up every hill and in every sprint. Me, I'd rather ride with my buddies and let them have some fun (not to say I didn't win some of those sprints)

[HighTopFade]

Great topic!

RagingAardvark, on Apr 24 2007, 09:35 AM, said:

I'm now involved with two sports that are often seen as elitist and snobbish: golf and cycling (road cycling in particular). Both get that moniker fairly and unfairly. I know some snobby golfers, and I know some very open, kind, generous people. The same is true of cycling.

Fact is, both sports can be VERY intimidating for beginners.

So true.

[stage1350]

You have to put everything in perspective and decide whether the behavior you are citing is inappropriate. If I'm trying to sneak in a quick 9 before the sun goes down after work at the local muni, I'm not going to piss and moan about the women and kids on the course. I'll pick up and skip a hole. I can walk 9 for less than 10 bucks, so I'm not going to worry about only playing 8.

My response is going to be different if I'm on a $100 course. Especially if the course has signs about pace of play. I'm paying extra for not only a better course, but a quicker pace of play as well. I can tolerate a short knocker that walks up and hits the ball. I can't tolerate slow play on a premium course by any player, good or bad. Even a total chop can play a round in 4.5 hours.

Elitism is silly. I've heard stories of guys with full tour bags shooting +21 with 46 putts on a round. I've also seen guys with "cheap" sets that can go seriously low. I can play a round of golf with anybody. I'll move up a set of boxes to be friendly rather than insist on playing the tips if I'm playing a casual round. I won't call a guy on every rules infraction or count his strokes unless we're in a tournament or playing for money. I have no need to brag about how good or bad I am. My round and ballstriking will speak for me.

Practice ranges are the same as a course. If I go out of my way to go to a better facility and pay more money to get some serious practice in, I don't want to listen to the cell phone of the jackass three stalls down going off every 5 minutes. I don't want to have to watch my backswing because someone else is not watching where their children are running. But if I'm going to the neighborhood range, I expect that to happen.

Etiquette has given way to guys that are too busy smoking stogies, drinking beer, and sending text messages on the course. I am all for having a good time when I go to a bar. I'm not a fan of watching some drunk bastage puking off the side of a tee box. (Seen it!) If that's snobishness on my part, then guilty as charged.

[MrJones]

I agree with a lot of the points being made here.

A lot of complaints center around the fair weather golfer. Mr. once or twice a year that happens to get the tee time in front of you and doesn't even know what the term "playing through" means. But also there are a ton of people getting into the game that just don't know that much about it.

I've often though that the only thing this board is missing is a "beginers forum". A forum specifically for guys just making a return to the game or for young guys just getting started.

I'll bet there's a ton of guest who never post because they don't feel like they have enough knowledge of the game or equipment to make a valid comment. And nobody wants to ask what might be considered a stupid question to others.

I'd like to see a beginers forum here. I know there's a ton of knowledgable people on this board who'd be happy to share info with beginers that don't know a Diamana from a Wilson Fat boy driver. It would open up the board for a lot of lurkers who are trying to learn and give first timers a place to jump into the conversation.

Just a thought.

[drpino]

Beginners Forum is an EXCELLENT idea!

[Gxgolfer]

What beginner question does not fit any of our existing categories and or isn't answered? One great asset of GolfWRX is the breadth of membership knowledge. There is a much higher chance of getting a question answered if placed into an existing category than the creation of a beginner section. If you look at the habits of most posters, they only frequent a few forums.

I have modified the Swing and Fitness Forum to include Beginners. Let's see how that does since we have many respected instructors and helpful professionals there.

http://www.golfwrx.c...php?showforum=6

[sfdoddsy]

The problem, as I see it, is that whilst the average dude can go to range and whack some balls, it is much harder to actually play because of availability and price.

There was a story I read recently about the growth of golf and golf courses. To summarize, England, Scotland and Ireland seem almost saturated, mainly because of the availability of land. New courses are decreasing the States because of the cost, ie they are only affordable when tied to luxury housing.

Elsewhere (Eastern Europe/Asia), the number of players was expected to increase by 35% a year.

If you build a course, and price it right, they will come.

[MrJones]

Gxgolfer, on Apr 24 2007, 11:57 PM, said:

What beginner question does not fit any of our existing categories and or isn't answered? One great asset of GolfWRX is the breadth of membership knowledge. There is a much higher chance of getting a question answered if placed into an existing category than the creation of a beginner section. If you look at the habits of most posters, they only frequent a few forums.

I have modified the Swing and Fitness Forum to include Beginners. Let's see how that does since we have many respected instructors and helpful professionals there.

http://www.golfwrx.c...php?showforum=6

I guess I was just thinking more along the lines of coming to the board for the first time and wanting to get basic information about anything and everything. I know for a long time I lurked on the board just because I had little to no knowledge about equipment or shafts or other things. I had to read a lot and get a lot of magazine subscriptions before I felt like I knew enough to ask a valid question.

Maybe I'm the only one.

[drpino]

re: the Beginners section, i agree with what MrJones said above...just a place that would be a little less intimidating for someone not as familiar with equipment to post a question. although i think Gxgolfer's point about a specific question having a better chance of getting answered in the relevant forum, sometimes the intimidation may just be a result of not knowing exactly where to post a question.

[Gxgolfer]

The Swing and Fitness area now include beginners section as that is where most professionals are.

[scs1070]

Wow....would this be an interesting forum if we were all "wow, I really love that club" "great, I am glad you like it, I like it too".

There would be no need for marketing or multiple brands of clubs....and there would be like 10 total posts here.

Boo!

[MrJones]

scs1070, on Apr 25 2007, 08:48 PM, said:

Wow....would this be an interesting forum if we were all "wow, I really love that club" "great, I am glad you like it, I like it too".

There would be no need for marketing or multiple brands of clubs....and there would be like 10 total posts here.

Boo!

The only thing interesting is the fact that you apparently assume we'd want to close all the other sections.

It's also interesting that you assume that it would all be mindless chatter. I guess if you're a beginer you just get a club that's the right color and you're good.

[beachgrovejunior]

belote, on Apr 23 2007, 08:20 AM, said:

After reading a lot of posts on here, I have begun to see why Golf is not growing as a game. There are many opinions expressed on this board that are elitist and demeaning that are going to ruin golf.

Most of us didn't obtain our love for the game by practicing our progression in silence with our fathers, or playing a round with the kid next door who talks about nothing but how amazing his clubs are, or playing the rules to T betting with our friends.

We started to play the game because it was a challenge and it was fun. I think that many people have lost that fun, and now every outing is about showing off how good they are and making people feel bad at the same time.

i agree with some things in your post, but some, i mean come on.

First, you say that alot of the opinions are elitists, im pretty sure they come off as elitists because these people are in love with golf, and i think they should have an opinion, seeing as they play multiple times a week and a lot of them like me live, breath and sleep golf. and in no way is it demeaning, its something called freedom of speech

I cant believe you would complain about people playing by the rules, most people who care about golf dislike people cheating, not being honest. Would you want to watch a sport like football if someone gets facemasked and gets hurt, but the ref does not call it, because its just a game so why play by the rules exactly?

You say that people are losing that golf is fun and a challenge, and how they are trying to show off compared to the high handicappers. Its a thing called pride, knowing you got up early, went and practiced, and are able to be in the top percentile of golfers, not that youre better than a beginner, because they might get addicted to golf as well, and end up beating you. None of them are forced to golf, so im pretty sure it must be fun for them.

I agree with some of your points, but others i just did not get

[shoe295]

Elitist or enthusiast? I've not seen anything indicative of elitism here, heck they let me hang out and even post things which no self respecting elitist worthy of the name would allow. What I have been exposed to is a very large group of enthusiasts who have devoted a great deal of time, energy, and dollars into an activity they are very passionate about. To live without passion is to live as an empty husk. The joy of this site is that so many others share their passion for this wonderful game without a great deal of chest beating or testosterone fueled bravado.

[threeputter]

I feel the need to respond since I started that range discussion. Nowhere in there did I ever say everyone had to be quite. But having a couple of jackasses go to the range and have only one hitting balls out 200 yards and having the other telling at the tops of his lungs on every shot , "Man that a great shot I wish I was as good as you" and "Damn you really got that" is BS. That not ettiqutte that's stupidity and needs to be smacked down.

Say what you want and if the game stops growing,because we don't have idiots like that on the course, then I am all for the game slowing down. Again, you obviously didn't read, because it was extremely loud and obnoxious, and I guess if you weren't there you wouldn't understand. But continue on with your holier then though attitude, but I am guessing if you act like that on the range and the course you will do more to slow the growth of the game down then people like me who put a few idiots back in their place that there is some semblence of decorum.

I am not elitist, and the normal folks I play with I try to help along, and they look to me for teaching which I gladly do. What I won't stand for is 2 year old attitudes from middle aged men with ADHD anywhere especially someplace where I pay to "play".

[stage1350]

I'm going to disagree that people do not post due to elitism. Some people lurk, some are outspoken. I have no problem giving my opinion and expect everyone to take it with a grain of salt. We all know what opinions are like.... everybody has one.

This would be a very boring board if there was only positive comments and a**-slapping everywhere. As much as you may love a club that works for you, I also like to know what doesn't work for your swing as well. I've avoided a lot of high spinning clubheads that would have no place in my bag due to the critical reviews on this board, both positive AND negative.

If you don't want to come out of your shell and post on this board, I'm not sure that you are ever going to find a golf forum that you will have the courage to post on. This is probably the most open site on the net for golfers. If you want to see elitism, check out some of the hard core collector sites.

As for the good of the game, prices are going through the roof. Not only do you have companies pushing $1000 shafts and $1600 clubheads, but greens fees are increasing year over year. Even if Dad wants to introduce junior to the game, it's at a much higher cost. Unfortunately, this does not look it will change in the near future. That's pushing away a lot of potential golfers.

Add to that the crybabies that are limiting technology that makes the game easier and more enjoyable for the recreational golfer and you have a double whammy. You newer golfers will never see a distance increase from technology since driver lengths and COR have been capped. Now, they won't be able to hold greens because the USGA wants to eliminate agressive grooves. And if that weren't enough, you still have luddites out there trying to roll back the ball. How much harder do we need to make it for the recreational golfer?

The USGA needs to quit making this game more difficult and focus on making the game more accessable to the public.

[mellowOne]

belote, on Apr 23 2007, 11:20 AM, said:

After reading a lot of posts on here, I have begun to see why Golf is not growing as a game. There are many opinions expressed on this board that are elitist and demeaning that are going to ruin golf.

. Most of us know how much fun golf can be, but there is a widely held perception among the public that golf is not for the masses, and many people on this board are perpetuating this misconception.
I am actively involved in an ongoing heated discussion about range etiquette, and the expectations and reactions of some people are ridiculous and highlight the egos and attitudes that are becoming all to common at local facilities. To think that everyone must be silent in order for you to work through your "progression" is absurd. More than a couple members brag about how they pull out their driver (out of order in their progression) and proceed to bomb it increasingly longer distances past the beginners that are attempting to have fun around them in an attempt to embarrass them. These attitudes make people not want to come back, ......................... There is also an ever-present attitude on here about people who don't have the latest equipment like us. FYI, most people aren't fortunate enough to buy the newest offerings from Callaway or Taylormade or Titleist, and there are more people who play with top flights than there are that play proV1's
Most of us didn't obtain our love for the game by practicing our progression in silence with our fathers, or playing a round with the kid next door who talks about nothing but how amazing his clubs are, or playing the rules to T betting with our friends. We started to play the game because it was a challenge and it was fun. I think that many people have lost that fun, and now every outing is about showing off how good they are and making people feel bad at the same time.

You have cast a very wide net with the header "for The Good Of The Game, This is direct at you". Some of the your comments I take issue with

There are many opinions expressed on this board that are elitist and demeaning that are going to ruin golf.

Elitism & inflated egos exist in all walks of life: Next time you are at a large sporting event look at the autos parked there. Motorhomes with the flashy paint. Hummers & premium sports cars, highly decorated motorcycles, along with economy cars. It is what it is.

All sports have proud toys/fads: with fishing it is the latest fishing shirt/rod & reels, boaters the latest/fastest boats. Tennis the latest shirts/rackets. Motorcyclists with the latest bikes, Golfers with the latest clubs. All have some fans that seek the latest & others go with what they have. Does the fact that one has the latest/greatest toy, is proud of it, & will gladly discuss it them make them a bad person? Do these actions cause a decline in their interest areas? I THINK NOT!

Some will use what skills (if any) & equipment to pursue their sports & some will seek a higher level of expertize. The fisherman may seek better gear, attend meetings to improve their knowledge. The motorcyclist may purchase a high performance bike & attend a higher level riding school. The golfer may purchase high performance clubs, take lessions, & practice a lot. Does the fact that one seeks a higher level of efficiency make them a bad person? I THINK NOT!

Your comments about the range as posted by another member implys he should have accepted rude & crude behavior because others were having fun. Has rude & crude behavior become so ingrained that we have to accept it for the good of the game? I THINK NOT!. The menber posts his thoughts/opinions & you have issue with it? Should we all purchase from Wal-Mart For The Good Of The Game? Is the posters here causing a downturn in the golf industry? I THINK NOT! Are the Though Police at work here? I HOPE NOT.

Your comment "This is direct at you" As I indicated you have cast a broad net. I play daily fee courses, make my own clubs using quality products and could not care less what others use or where they play. Nor do I care how far they hit. I, like many members here, visit this website & others for golf & other information, knowledge, & opinions (some good & bad). [b]I would highly recomend care when casting a such a very broad net.

Golf gives one time to stop & smell the roses. It is now time for me to smell the roses & take a walk in the park.

You have a nice day.

[adammull]

But golf isn't a game for the masses. It requires a course, some clubs, a half-decent swing that perhaps comes from lessons, and time. I can simulate baseball with a rock and a stick. Golf will never be a game for the common man, that's just the way it is.

[MrJones]

I'm a common man and I play twice a weekend. That is, if my "common man" wages will allow it. I see common men playing all the time. At least I think they're common. Maybe they're all "above average" men in disguise? I'll have to be more careful now that I think about it.

Golf isn't something you can just decide you want to do once a month and be successful. I always say playing like that is the equvilant of playing basketball for the first time ever and thinking you'll get better playing just once a month. And itis pretty expensive to buy equipment if you're only using it 12 times a year. But if you enjoy it and play a lot golf it really isn't that expensive. I know guys that spend as much on beer every weekend as I do golf.

I think it could grow. I personally see a lot more young guys playing these days than I did back when I wasone of those young guys.

[Mulligan26]

At the range and on the course, I am a talker. For me, it relieves tension and eases the mood and atmosphere of things. Don't get me wrong, I am not loud or obnoxious (at least to my knowledge anyway) but I do talk to my father and friends. If someone doesn't like it then they are free to tell me, but that hasn't happened yet.

As far as being elitest, I have played junior tournaments with kids that have private coaches for the swing, short game and a sports psychologist, and with kids that have a $200 complete Accuity set from Dicks. We all play the same course and are generally indifferent to things such as equipment. I'm not the kind of person to look down on someone for having crappy or older stuff. The golf ball doesn't know if a MP-32 or a Big Bertha iron is hitting it. The course will always whoop you if you make a mistake with ANY type of equipment.

On etiquite and rules enforcement, I smoke and I'm always making sure that I am up wind from my playing partners so they don't have to inhale my smoke. Using that as an example, I like first hand smoke, so when some schmuck lights up a fat stogie down wind from me in the middle of my backswing, I get pissed. I also get annoyed when people don't have the decentcy to yell "fore".

Last saturday I was standing near my bag reaching to get a water, when pain erupted from my head. I was seeing stars when I realized that I had been hit. My friends father hit the shot of his life with a gap wedge and flew the green. He didn't know it was going that far and didn't yell fore. It hurt, a lot and I feel lucky that it was a G-wedge and not a 3-wood.

Thats all I have for now.

[belote]

First of all, I don't want to be known as THAT GUY who doesn't play by the rules. In fact, I have made more than one post on this board about how the pro's know every rule that will help them (and hurt them, aka Wilson) and will use the rule that fits their circumstance in the correct context and how that is for the good of the game. What I am tired of, however, is of certain people using the 'correct rules of golf' to favor them in a bet in order to bend the bet in their favor, as referenced earlier when someone was casually marking their ball close to the point of rest in a among friends, where the one person is not the group (aka son in law of the 3rd person.

I am all for giving one the benefit of a doubt, especially one who is a half-way decent golfer that marks a 30 foot putt one inch away from where the actual point of rest was, only because he wanted to make the round go in a decent amount of time, and sinks the TV tap-in. I don't feel that if a person, in a foursome (not in a tournament) marks a putt one inches or two from where he 'actually stopped' was in order to not impede the play of others, was a cheater because he threw down his ball marker to speed up a lagging foursome.

I am a rule of golf guy, always, in a tournament, or formal competition. That being said, if everyone knows in my regular Saturday betting group, that in order not to kill the 4 hour round that the group behind me is playing, knows that if I drop 3 yards away from a hazard (not to improve my position) will not improve my shot-making, it's really no big deal. Whether I am a foot away from the red stake, or a yard away, I am going to hit a 3 iron to 10 feet, it does not matter.

I want everyone to understand what I am getting at, which is not that cheating is the way to go, nor is ignorance of the rules, but tolerance of others. If you are putting on a green where someone steps in your line, by all means, let them know in a friendly manner that what they did is bad etiquette, but if your green is plagued with crows feet, don't blame the newbie for 'interfering with your line of play', etc.

If I offended people by starting this forum, sorry, but the truth is that some people need to realize that this game is a game, and it is meant to be fun. Fun is not winning a hundred bucks off a guy that was casual about the rules but beat you regardless, fun is about you doing the best you can and taking pride in your own game.

[littlepingman]

Its sounds to me like you had an incident that made you mad, and in turn you came here and transformed it into a generalized rant that alot of the die hard golfers whom frequent websites such as this managed to take personally. I bet alot of us can pick apart tons of bad experiences on the course that could lead to a rant such as this. I just like to take the good with the bad. I love this game too much to allow the occasional incident affect my mood or the way I view the game.

P.S. I don't really see how throwing you marker down behind the ball instead of placing it directly behind the ball is going to help speed up a "lagging" foursome.

Thanks.

[mkoreiwo]

belote, I think I understood your original post.... But I will say that GolfWRX is better than some others when it comes to tolerance, fairness, and helpfulness as an enthusiast website. Personally, if you look at my bag, I would (perhaps to some) appear an eliteist, but I can assure you I'm simply an idiot that likes technology! I would never imply my gave is good (or bad!!) becauce of what I play with.

Lets face it - golf may always have a bit of elitism associated with it, but here I don't see it too much. There is the enthusiast and the club 'ho (like me and others) - which is popular and by and large harmless.

I understand what it is like to feel the angst that you are describing/implying at a practice range. When I started, I always tried to find a quiet spot so that I could try to focus on what I needed to do, and wouldn't be "intimidated" at the same time. While that is my problem, it no doubt creeps into other beginners minds as well. I've gotten over it for the most part. When it comes to distractions, I don't have a problem with friends who have adjacent stalls helping each other, tlaking, etc., but I do object to the yahoos that have absolutely no interest in the game and act like complete jerks yelling, jumping, and whatever.

I play with a rotating group of friends, and we always have fun when we play. If I didn't have fun, I'd quit in heartbeat. When I've gone out alone and gotten paired up, I always have let my new partners know what level of play I'm at, and I've never had a bad time.

Golf can be a rewarding pastime. I hope you can still have fun.