[scratchtoscratch]

Three guys go out to play golf. Two are very good friends and one is the father in law of one of them.

X and Y (the two mates) play a lot at a very similar level. The father-in-law (F-I-L) is a good golfer too and so they play a game of skins. This was pure fun (theoretically) and they were only playing 16 holes. 50p a skin so it's a close to a "no big deal" match as it's possible to get (or so X thought)

X won the first two skins and then played badly for 2 or 3 holes. Y and F-I-L halved those holes and then they all got back on track again but the skins built up until there were nine.

X played a tee shot wild like Y's F-I-L and they both ended up on the adjoining fairway. It's a very long, tricky par four up hill. X hit a brave three wood over trees which he felt pretty certain was about spot on although it was blind. The F-I-L did the same but hit a nice draw. He just caught the top of a tree. He and X marched up the fairway to try and find our balls. There was no sign of Xs around the green so he assumed he'd been unlucky and started looking in the trees. They found the F-I-L ball and he played it while X carried on looking. Y and F-I-L both came over to try and find Xs but X said "You carry on". They had probably been looking for both balls for a little over five minutes (but not much)

When Y walked onto the green (to start putting) he saw Xs ball on the edge of it in the shadows. He tutted that "another golfer wouldn't have let you play that" X wasn't quite sure what this meant. The hole was basically Xs for the taking. Y had messed up in a bunker and F-I-L got a bogey. X "up and downed" for a par. All nine skins were Xs (theoretically)

Y kept muttering and then said "you really can't take that you know" He insisted that X had given up on the hole by saying "you carry on" and said they'd looked for more than 5 minutes.

X teetered on the brink of a meltdown but just remained calm and smiled at him. He told him "I won't take it but that I found it VERY interesting that you chose to do that". Y called his F-I-L in to make a judgement. F-I-L was embarassed. X totally refused to take it and they decided to wipe out the 9 shots and start again. X won the next hole and then the next two skins.

Y remained in a childish huff and made sly comments throughout the round about "indisgressions" - he tried to make it up but only by trying to get X to apologise. He explained why he was "enraged" at Xs behaviour. Bear in mind that X and Y have played together for years and are supposed to be good mates.

So what's your take? Try, if you can, and be subjective on two levels. The pure competition level and also the "playing with a friend" level. If X is totally out of order he'd like to know. If not he'd just like an opinion.

[SHERO]

Well X did agree to give up the hole. Anyone would be annoyed by that. Y was acting childish because he couldn't face defeat really.
my $.02.

[Shaitan]

As a friendly game I wouldn't give a rat's about it and let him play it as it was, but if it was a competition and the player had declared the ball lost he would have to play his 4th from back where he hit it the first time. It happened to me in Pennants (matchplay) where the guy I was playing hooked his drive into a tree off of the tee and, believing that he would find it, didn't play a provisional. I on the other hand, managed to put mine 240 over the trees on the right, but not knowing where it landed, hit a provisional just in case I couldn't find it. The guy I was playing lost his ball, but after reteeing he found his first tee shot but was disallowed to play it as it was already deemed lost. Me on the otherhand had found my first and played it before the marshal came over and told me that I had to play my provisional. I was like WTF, I hadn't left the tee or anything and I still had to play 3 from the middle of the fairway. I ended up still winning the hole and winning the match as the other guy completely stuffed up, but I went to the marshall after the round and he said that he had in fact made a mistake and apologised. I was a bit cut, but all's well that ends well. It could have cost me pretty big in a pro-am or something of the like.

[scratchtoscratch]

Interesting stuff.

I think the issue lies in terms of what agreeing to give up the hole means. Since it was pure friendly play X just didn't want the other two to waste time looking for his ball. He meant "you carry on and I'll keep looking" but of course that's NOT what he said.

In competition if a ball is found at 6 minutes is it deemed out of play?

[mat562]

"You carry on" doesn't mean "I am declaring this ball lost" in my book. It means "I'm a bit embarrassed that the fact I've hit this ball in the junk means that you two may be distracted by feeling obligated to help me look for it. You play your own shots and I'll carry on looking until time is up as I am doubtful that it will be easy to find. If I do find it, by some chance, I'll let you know and I'll play it..."

Y is out of order in my book.

I can't speak for your friends, but, in my experience, this situation wouldn't raise an eyebrow, even when playing for somewhat bigger stakes.

If X makes a 4, and wins the skins, so be it.

[scratchtoscratch]

This....

"I'm a bit embarrassed that the fact I've hit this ball in the junk means that you two may be distracted by feeling obligated to help me look for it. You play your own shots and I'll carry on looking until time is up as I am doubtful that it will be easy to find. If I do find it, by some chance, I'll let you know and I'll play it..."

...is exactly what was meant. X hates the tedium of ball looking and hates having to force others to look. Every time he loses a ball he would tend to say "you carry on" He will just need to be more careful with his language

[frozen_rope]

Did X played a second ball ?

If not, X is permitted to play his original ball that was found up near the green.

[leetch]

Interesting indeeed. I've had this situation happen many times in friendly competition and have ALWAYS allowed the player to play his original ball even if we finished the hole and we happened to find it walking off the green. Simply because we are friends. Since the F-I-L isn't a normal part of the group, it would certainly be up to him how the hole played out and the two friends would just have to accept the ruling and "get over it".

X's comments didn't necessarily mean he gave up. During the Masters, Phil Mickelson told his playing partners to go ahead while he got a ruling on his ball. Slightly different situation but he said, "go ahead" to his partners. That didn't mean he gave up, it meant that he didn't want to slow the group down while he got a ruling. The same could be said for X since he never conceded his ball was lost.

The end result however is that X and Y got upset at each other over something silly. It was friendly competition and nothing more. Each should buy a round of drinks and get over it and decide how to handle it in the future if it ever comes up again. Was this silly little hole really worth the tension in the friendship?

[pmas93]

This just goes to show that the language used on a golf course is very important. By saying you go ahead he was being curtious. Not conceeding the hole.
When hitting a provisional you have to say this ball is a provisional or you are playing your 3rd shot.
I had the situation once in match play where I told a guy after he hit a putt that was about 80 feet up to about 3 feet on a very undulating green, "That was a good putt". He walked over and picked his ball up and took par. I said what are you doing. His reply was, you said good putt so you gave it to me.
You have to be careful what language you use.
With that said, by the rules of golf, both were wrong. After 5 minutes according to the rules of golf a ball is lost. And the language used if is as you wrote, did not equal the golf conceeding the hole. So both were wrong and need to get over it. Wipe out all bets and start new on the next hole or the next round of golf. And before the next round, state whether the rules of golf are in play by the book or if the rules are golf are in play with friendly liberties being given by the other player.

[hbear]

Hard to keep track of the x and ys and zs...
but in this case X is right (friendly game no?) and in my groups it wouldn't be a problem.
I also interpret x saying "Carry on" to be go ahead and hit your ball don't worry about mine, I'll keep looking for it myself..I don't want to hold you up.

I know I haven't been in school for a while but I'm sure if I looked up "Carry On" in the dictionary it won't have "I'm declaring a lost ball, or I'm giving you the hole" anywhere near it.

That being said if they looked for over 5 minutes and didn't find the ball, rules state the ball is lost.
So in a true competition X would have to go back and rehit (stroke and distance) and Y would have a point.
But as said earlier...this is a friendly game, calling something like that in a friendly leads to the fist fights and arguements we see every now and then on the weekend.

[hbear]

pmas93, on Apr 13 2007, 12:22 PM, said:

I had the situation once in match play where I told a guy after he hit a putt that was about 80 feet up to about 3 feet on a very undulating green, "That was a good putt". He walked over and picked his ball up and took par. I said what are you doing. His reply was, you said good putt so you gave it to me.

In matches that's why I'll go with "Nice putt, or nice lag". And when giving a putt I'll use "That's good"

[hoganfan924]

Technically, according to the rules, Y was right in not allowing X to take the hole since X searched for more than 5 minutes (if X and FIL agrees he searched for more than 5 min). However, it appears Y did not insist that X replay the 2nd shot to begin with so I don't see how he can whine about X playing out the original ball. It is match play and you are being your own rules officials, so the situation had to be addressed before X played the original ball, not after X completed the hole. Being a "friendly" match and since X ultimately agreed not to take the hole, Y exhibited extremely poor sportsmanship in pouting about it and making bad comments later. Also, being a friendly match, Y showed poor sportsmanship and lack of fair play when he did not allow X to take the skins.

Would Y have taken the same position had X holed out the 2nd shot and spent more than 5 minutes looking for the ball? (and yes, I know according to the rules it's not the same and player X would have been deemed to have completed the hole even if he didn't realize it).

Y exhibited a complete lack of character and sportsmanship IMHO and X should start looking for more honorable playing partners.

[DarthFierce]

I completely agree with Hoganfan924 except for the part about finding a more honorable partner. Don't do that just yet. Give him a few more chances. There may be more to Y's behavior then just golf. It could be problems with work, problems with his marriage, tension between him and the father-in-law, who knows?

I have a good friend that can be a hothead about once every 6 months. If he acts like an irritated jerk I try to see if it was something I did to tick him off. If not then I tend to just listen and in most cases he starts complaining about a fight he had with his wife that day or the previous day.

Give Y another chance. Maybe get together off the course and drink a beer together. You shouldn't drop him over one small incident, and even if he feels you were 100% wrong he should have the same respect for you. Good golf friends who play at close to your same level are hard to find.

Good luck!

[meroj]

When we go out to play, we agree on the first tee on whether we are just playing for fun or if we are going to be strict about the rules. If it is my once a month game with long time friends, we would never call X on taking too long to find his ball. And it sounds like this was just supposed to be a friendly wager. Consider it a lesson and play only by the rules with Y.

Last year, me and some guys who I thought were friends agreed to play a similar round. One of the guys (his nickname is Spermcell) was really taking a beating by the 8th hole. Through the first 7 I had played very well. On the 8th tee I sliced my ball in to some trees where I had been many times and didn't really think much of it. When we couldn't find the ball I was going to drop and just play from there. Well spermcell got his panties all in a bunch and insisted that I had to go back and re-tee. I didn't want to because there were guys in the tee and this was a friendly match after all. After a little arguing, I went back and re-teed, but now when I play with Spermcell, I know make sure that both he and I play strictly by the rules. Since then, there has never been a problem. Some guys let their competetive nature get in the way of commonsense.