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Counting Putts


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#1 twoody40

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:41 AM

I keep very close tabs on fairways hit, greens in regulation and putts.  The question recently came up about putts.  I count all my putts, even those from off the green.  My pro says that officially, you're only to count putts from on the green.

It would seem to me that I'd be deceiving myself by only counting putts from the putting surface because it would always be fewer putts than when I was counting the putts from off the green.  Example:  I'm two yards off the green with a close cropped thin lie.  I putt the ball close and then tap it in.  Is that one putt or two?

I'm interested in what others think about this.


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#2 Kaysquare

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

It's one putt.  Shots from off the green, even if you use your putter to make, are considered not putts.  It doesn't matter if you're one inch off the green, or 20 yards.

#3 station2station

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:57 AM

That's entirely your call.   In theory you could putt from 50 yards off the green.  But...

...officially it's only from the putting surface.  This method gives you an accurate count of GIR as well.  So when you hear it on TV they are only referring to putts stroked from the surface.

Your example is a one-putt.

In a related note, one of my favorite statistics in modern golf is the "feet of putts made".  The commentator will sometimes say "Graeme has made 116 feet of putts leading up to Saturday."  The higher number the more impressive the stat.  They are measuring the distance of the final roll going into the cup on each hole and adding up the sum total.  

We can't measure ours because we don't have the digital equipment. Cool metric to hear.

Edited by station2station, 06 May 2013 - 09:03 AM.

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#4 Willie Malay

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

# of putts is the most irrelevant of stats. Very misleading.

#5 twoody40

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostWillie Malay, on 06 May 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

# of putts is the most irrelevant of stats. Very misleading.

Willie, explain that please.  Since every tour player counts them, I'm wondering what your premise is.  What if someone has 40 putts in a round.  Would that not tell you something?  Thanks.


#6 peat24

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:28 AM

we were having this discussion on another thread. one poster made a great point about putts:

"For putts number of putts is virtually useless. Keep track of how many 1-putts and how many 3-putts and what was the distance (approximate is good enough) of your first putt. Taking 35 putts when you were putting from 30+ feet on every green is not bad at all. Taking 35 putts when you have half a dozen first putts inside 10 feet and none longer than 25 feet is awful."

think if you hit EVERY GIR and 2 putted each one. that would be a 72 with 36 putts. i'll take that every day of the week. but what if i miss each GIR and chip it within 2 feet and drain each putt. now i have 18 putts with a 72. same score, different things each player needs to work on.


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#7 Argonne69

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:20 AM

It's difficult to track, but the most useful putting stat created is the new strokes gained stat. It measures you against the other golfers at each distance. The odds of making a 40 footer are quite small, so when you do nail one it's worth more than making a 1 footer with a 99% make rate.

As others note, total putts can be misleading, as it generally is lowered by having a good short game, where you're chipping/pitching give you a lot of short 1 putt opportunities. Putts per GIR is a better stat, but it is still skewed by your distance from the pin.

#8 Kaysquare

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:25 AM

One-putts for birdies are wonderful & for pars too, but I know lots of folks who get one-putts for bogeys, or worse, much worse.  In that case, one-putts are pretty irrelevant.

#9 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:58 AM

View PostKaysquare, on 06 May 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

One-putts for birdies are wonderful & for pars too, but I know lots of folks who get one-putts for bogeys, or worse, much worse.  In that case, one-putts are pretty irrelevant.

ignoring whether counting putts is beneficial, your making a seperate argument.  There is a difference between counting putts in hopes of judging putting skill and counting putts to determine how well you score. having a one putt double bogey says nothing about score, but can still reference that you are a good putter.

in general i think counting putts is an antique way of judging ability. its way overrated on determining skill. this is why pga went to the putts gained stat. .

i've mentioned it before, but i like to track my putting but tracking distance isn't going to happen, and i still think overall feet made is a little overrated too. draining a long putt would make you look like a great putter compared to the guy routinely draining 4-5 footers. missing 3 footers and making the comeback 2 footer would also be ignored by using distance stat.

i simply count putts missed inside 4 feet, putts made outside 5 feet, and number of 3 putts. compare these stats round to round to see if you're getting better or worse.
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#10 ThominOH

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

I count that as 2 putts.. I could care less about the "official" on green status.. All that does is manipulate my numbers that are not true reflections of how I played.. I do the same with "GIR" stat as well.. There are times I chase after a tucked away pin position with a wedge that is only 8 feet from the edge of the green, and too many times the ball will find it's way to trickle off the green by a few inches or a foot.. Technically I missed the green, and will end up with a zero or one putt stat.. Does that mean I hit a bad approach, and became the best putter in the world?  NO.. In fact it gives a false impression on what really took place..  I use my best judgement in giving myself GIR and putts to reflect the realism of the hole performance..  Keep this in mind for fairways hit too.. Stats can be misused 98.7586% of the time.. lol


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#11 Argonne69

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostThominOH, on 06 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Stats can be misused 98.7586% of the time.. lol

Ummmm, shouldn't that be 98.7585% of the time? Sheesh. :D

#12 JLTD63

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:53 PM

I keep track of my stats too...why?  I don't know, because I never practice.  I just like the numbers.  I would count your hypothetical situation as a one-putt.

I agree that putt per round with no other metric doesn't really paint a totally clear picture.  But I still like to know what my per round average is! haha

#13 goloworgohome

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:05 PM

1-putt

and i totally agree about putts per round being one of the more useless stats out there
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#14 QuigleyDU

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:11 PM

I think that if someone had 40 putts and shot a 70 that would mean something.

#15 Senna

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:19 PM

I keep putts and chips stats for each hole.  I consider using a putter from off the green as a chip, but if its on the fringe or very close to the fringe I count it as a putt.
Stats, for me anyway, are really just personal.  I know when I play well and I know when I play rubbish and its pretty easy to know why, stats dont give me a sudden "eureka" moment.

Edited by Senna, 06 May 2013 - 06:19 PM.


#16 twoody40

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:46 PM

I have enjoyed everyone's comments on this topic and will give some thought to changing the way I measure my game.  Some good points have been made.  Thanks.

#17 Golfjunki71

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:03 PM

Putts per GIR. If it is low you're either a great putter or great ballstriker.
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#18 indyvai

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:13 PM

One putt definitely.  The whole putts per round is reflective of how well you are playing from 200yds and in, not necessarily only on the green.  If you are knocking everything at the center of the green from 200 and in, you will end up with plenty of 2 putts.  If you are missing the greens, and chipping within 4 feet... alot of one putts.  So anything off the green is off the green and doesn't count as a putt.  If you could just as well use a wedge to chip, then putt... it can't count as a putt just because your putter is used.

But in the end, keep the stats you want... they're there to help you understand and keep track of YOUR game!

#19 onafriday

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:13 PM

This came up on tour a few weeks ago.  Someone used a wedge to chip a very long putt.  

It was marked a putt, as anything on the green is, regardless of club selection.  Faldo, I think, mentioned it.

I think feet up putt made is a much more valuable indicator of how good of a day you're having on the greens.  

Of course on tour, strokes gained rules these days.
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#20 indyvai

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:15 PM

View Postonafriday, on 06 May 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

I think feet up putt made is a much more valuable indicator of how good of a day you're having on the greens.

I wish that was an easier stat to keep... I'd love to use that instead of putts per round!


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#21 atlanta golfer

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:18 PM

This topic has been in a number of threads in the past and the different points of view haven't changed much.  Some people say anytime you use your putter, others say if you are really close to the green and using your putter, still others say it is not a relevant stat because it depends on how many greens you hit, and still others say just do it like they do for the pros (# of putts after you are on the green).  Personally I keep my stats like they do on the tour .... fairways hit, gir, # putts after you reach the green.  I also track up and downs.

I guess the key is to do it consistently so you can determine if you are improving or not.

In terms of putts, assuming you count putts as starting once you are on the green, then obviously 36 or higher is bad, 32-34 is ok, 30-32 is getting better, and less than 30 is generally very good.  That is how I look at my putting anyway.

#22 ManBearPig98

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:17 PM

Unless I am mistaken, once you play a shot from the putting surface every shot including that one counts as a putt.  Example:  If you putt the ball off the green and then chip in with a wedge it would be considered 2 putts.

Again, I might be wrong.

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#23 highergr0und

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:34 PM

From the surface is official, but as long as you keep your stats the same all the time then it doesn't matter.  They won't be overly useful to compare to others, but they should be relevant to improvement however you wish to measure it.  

Total putts is a fine stat to keep.  It gives you the percentage of strokes that are putts on a round and can be used to gauge other things.  I'd expect to see certain correlations out of the stats and would be concerned if they weren't there.

#24 minitour

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:50 PM

View PostManBearPig98, on 06 May 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Unless I am mistaken, once you play a shot from the putting surface every shot including that one counts as a putt.  Example:  If you putt the ball off the green and then chip in with a wedge it would be considered 2 putts.

Again, I might be wrong.

Chris

This.

#25 SatelliteGuy

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:51 PM

I count putts but only the ones from the GIR's... That will give you a measure of your putting prowess. You hit 15 greens in reg and have 40 putts... You need to work on it.

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#26 atlanta golfer

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:33 AM

where things get a little dicey, and this also came up in prior threads on this topic, if you use your putter when the ball is on the fringe or just off the fringe, then do you cound that as a gir.  (it is NOT a gir by definition).  this is why at least for me I stick with the definitions as used on tour.

for me the gir and the putts per round predict my score pretty accurately ... a half dozen or more gir and 32 putts and I will be breaking 80 on that day.

the only thing that is not consistent for me are up and down percentages, because I can never figure out what distance to start from ... I have settled in at around 40 yards from the pin.  Inside that is an up and down opportunity and outside that, not.  I better be at 30% minimum and hopefully closer to 50%.

These stats are for current usga index of 8.0

Edited by atlanta golfer, 07 May 2013 - 04:36 AM.


#27 Hateto3Putt

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:41 AM

For betting purposes (fewest putts pot, dots, etc) only putts played from the green count.

#28 the man with no aim

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:14 AM

Only putts that count are made from the green, its not advise counting differently. Whatta are you gonna do, tell some else they're BS'er in the 19th when they say they didn't 3 putt once !

I once lagged to 3 feet through the "Valley of Sin" from 63 yards out, liped out the 1st putt and took a regulation par.  The score card just said 4 but, it was still a Fugly 4 fortunately, the pub doesn't overlook the 18th green and I'm not allowed in the clubhouse that does.

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#29 harold baines

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:56 PM

now the tricky part is if you putt, and miss so badly that the ball leaves the putting surface... then the following shot does count as a putt even though it's from off the putting surface

#30 rcaddell23

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:22 PM

I play with a guy that regularly uses his putter for 2nd shots on par 5's... and actually gets decent results.  If you count putts from off the green he's had some 3 putt birdies.

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