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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#61 rok78

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:06 AM

 Jim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

 rok78, on 25 April 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Jim's got a lot of great stuff, I'm glad it's getting out. I've always been a little hesitant to share specifics because like what has already happened, it's easy to misinterpret the illusions. I got the chance to take a 1-day one-one school with Jim, a follow-up lesson and even got to play 9 holes. I have to say, even though it's big, the Arm Swing Illusion is only the tip of the iceberg. A couple of the things I thought I knew but really blew my mind was the pressures at set-up and how to tighten things in, and his stuff on training the subconcious to act and not let your concious mind get in the way of the shot. Lots of good techniques for that.

Plus, even though his back was wrecked when we played, it was great to see he could still demonstrate principals and still compress the hell out of the ball. It's a different sound.

Thanks, Rok. It is always a pleasure to work with you, since you are able to grasp the concepts and make the changes so quickly. We should try to get out and play a round at Fazio soon, I am here for 9 more days before heading home to Oregon for the busy summer season.

I will definitely drop you an email if I can. With a newborn and toddler it's harder to get out on the weekends, so I can give my wife a break.

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#62 Hstead

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:13 AM

 Kiwi2, on 26 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

 beutelwomb, on 26 April 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!

No.

Think of  a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that  they  don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body

Love the info.  If you do not pull the arms down or across, which way does he recommend going with the arms, out towards the ball?  I would like ot hear more about which way the arms move on the downswing.  My arms feel like they are going left with my chest.  Dan hand me trying to just keep my hands in the center of my chest, but not really thinking about them coming down or toward the target I guess.  He showed me how the hands move toward the targetline which shallows the club, even though people think it makes you come OTT.
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#63 Huntster

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:18 AM

 Kiwi2, on 26 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

 beutelwomb, on 26 April 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!

No.

Think of  a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that  they  don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body

I was curious about this answer so thanks!  Is there a feel that you/Jim would tell a student to help get this U and resist the urge to pull down hard trying to create speed?

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#64 rok78

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:19 AM

 Hstead, on 26 April 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

 Chris Peterich, on 26 April 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

I hear ya,, I soent 5 solid months,,hitting sometimes 4 hrs plus a day beating the cast.  And I did...

A lesson is only good if you apply it..than applying it correctly is the trick..  Everyone expects a "5 ball" and you got it tip.  Doesn't happen,  if I hear something like this,,I run and run very very fast.

CP, there are several of us that it only took 3 to 5 swings.  I have played and tried to "fix" my swing for 20+ years.  Spent hours and hours of slo mo drilss in the living room, I can't begin to guess at how many range balls I have hit, all with little to no real changes that lasted.  Dan fixed it in 3 swings.  Dan will tell you that if you can't improve drasstically in 5 swings or so, something is not right.  He is that good.  Ask temebolo, CSagan, Eag1e, and several others, they have all experienced the "5 swings".  That doesn't mean every does, but a lot do.

I have a couple of kids now and I don't get to spend much time practicing like I did years ago.  I have really spent very little time with my new swing and I have videoed it several times, including yesterday.  Not once has it been different on video and it actually gets better even without practice.  Dan said it would.  He said the more you do it the better it will get.  I have been getting to play about three times per week with  usually at least one or two of those days being 9 holes and I have probably had 3 range sessions total.  

I used to be in the "10,000 reps" camp blah blah blah but once Dan explained how and why things work the way they do, it is easy.  It is WAY easier now than anything I have ever tried where I put in the 1,000 of reps.  This is a peice of cake.  No reason to not be able to do it in 3 swings.

I got to agree with this, but with a caveat. I think if the info is correct to the individual student, and the student-teacher have good communication it is instant provided the student has a decent amount of body awareness or the teacher was able to communicate the right image to convey the instruction.

When I was with Jim, we laughed because even though I had the whole day, my swing fix was done in literally the first hour, most of it was him explaining things to me such as the Arm Swing Illusion. But I probably hit 10 balls max before I got what he was telling me. He gave me the perfect image for my swing at the time. Then it was a matter of him layering other things and giving me next steps I could work on post-lesson. We eventually moved on to short game and fairway bunker shots because full swing was done so fast.
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#65 sethdavidsdad

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:23 AM

 The Pearl, on 26 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

 ryanandrew_golf, on 25 April 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Mr. Waldron I have always enjoyed your posts. I learned about the Arm Swing Illusion from iteach and it was an epiphany for me. Now when I swing, I try to feel like my arms do not move in the horizontal dimension at all. Best of luck to you with your book

I love that - that is exactly what I recommend to my students. Try to feel as if your arms never move in the horizontal dimension until well after impact, and even then only a little.

I am kind of stuck here with the definition of horizontal.  For lack of a better description, it seems to me that what is being described here is a turning of the body with no arm swing (movement) until about waist high or so, where by the club is simply lifted  to the top of the backswing.  Is this accurate?

I have the same question? Would love to know the answer!

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#66 Kiwi2

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:24 AM

 bdcava, on 26 April 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

This reminds me of something I read on a different forum a few years ago. They were discussing the backswing and someone described it as turning the body while lifting the left arm straight straight up from the shoulder. As someone who has always struggled with pulling the club way inside, this image helps me.

It is good that it helped you but it is not what Jim taught at the schools I attended.The movement is at a 45 degree angle to the chest, not straight up.

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#67 rok78

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:25 AM

 Chris Peterich, on 26 April 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

@hstead

Listen ..you had the opportunity to meet iteach in person.  Me,  trying online golf,programs for 4 years now...watching a video review or vid is so difficult to Learn. 1) how do you know that you have the camera setup right,,2) the person has to be there to see you

I put this out to iteach..and believe me..I'm honest and upfront.,and will give my unbiased review..  I'm not under a screen name..you can call or stop by my house..and I will still be honest...  Build up from 30 years of golf BS at times I guess...hard to Interpret info.  I will give iteach $500 dollars right now,,to do me a vid on what you did to Improve..  I will work on it..and come up with a unbias honest opinion in one month.  If he wants to see my swing..than fine,,,  I'm not being a jerk,  if he can help me with my transition..than I will pay.


The choice is his..but I put the offer out

I'm not being a jerk,  just this is my last year at online golf..if he can help me improve on what I'm doing..than i will pay

No harm..no foul

And just a honest request

Chris

Or maybe online lessons aren't for you? I had an online lesson with Jim prior to my in person. It didn't work as well (did help though) and I didn't get it nearly as fast as him being there. Communication is key and sometimes that includes the nuances of an in person lesson.

That being said, it won't take $500, Dan is on Golf Channel swing fix, why don't you sign up for a lesson?
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#68 Hstead

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:28 AM

 Chris Peterich, on 26 April 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

@hstead

Listen ..you had the opportunity to meet iteach in person.  Me,  trying online golf,programs for 4 years now...watching a video review or vid is so difficult to Learn. 1) how do you know that you have the camera setup right,,2) the person has to be there to see you

I put this out to iteach..and believe me..I'm honest and upfront.,and will give my unbiased review..  I'm not under a screen name..you can call or stop by my house..and I will still be honest...  Build up from 30 years of golf BS at times I guess...hard to Interpret info.  I will give iteach $500 dollars right now,,to do me a vid on what you did to Improve..  I will work on it..and come up with a unbias honest opinion in one month.  If he wants to see my swing..than fine,,,  I'm not being a jerk,  if he can help me with my transition..than I will pay.


The choice is his..but I put the offer out

I'm not being a jerk,  just this is my last year at online golf..if he can help me improve on what I'm doing..than i will pay

No harm..no foul

And just a honest request

Chris

I am TERRIBLE at learning things online myself.  I tried a lot of Slicefixer stuff that I read online, grip, setup, etc. and had it close but not right until I saw Geoff and he drew on my glove and showed me his setup etc.  Same for Dan, he told me what to do via email before I got there and I wasn't even close lol.

Dan made a video on the Straight right Arm thread, where he is showing the drill, but I am certain i still would not have gotten it correct on my own even watching that video.  I had to have him show me, and then I can vividly remember him grabbing my hands as I took the club to the top, and he took my hands in his and placed them where he wanted them, had me c0ck my wrists a little different, and said "right here, that's where you stop"  And on the downswing he had me go to the top, and then grabbed the shaft and pulled it down and said "see your shirt buttons, see your hands in front of them, keep them there and swing here" and he took my shaft down and around.  I had to have those things shown to me.

Like rok said too, with Dan it is all individualized.  I have talked to several other Dan guys and they had completely different issues that I had, sometimes polar opposites, and Dan gives them completely different things to work on.
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#69 Kiwi2

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:44 AM

 Hstead, on 26 April 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

 Kiwi2, on 26 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

 beutelwomb, on 26 April 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!

No.

Think of  a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that  they  don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body

Love the info.  If you do not pull the arms down or across, which way does he recommend going with the arms, out towards the ball?  I would like ot hear more about which way the arms move on the downswing.  My arms feel like they are going left with my chest.  Dan hand me trying to just keep my hands in the center of my chest, but not really thinking about them coming down or toward the target I guess.  He showed me how the hands move toward the targetline which shallows the club, even though people think it makes you come OTT.

The initial movement is a gravity drop almost straight down. The feeling in the left arm is, in Jims words,  “ a little down and a little out stretch toward the ground”

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#70 Ripper212

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:09 PM

Question for Jim. I really like your approach  but I wonder what you think of Jim Hardy's concepts.  His one plane swing is basically arms swinging around the turning body with the arms and club swing on basically the same plane as the turning shoulders. Your teaching seems more like what he would refer to as a 2 plane swing with arms and club swinging up in front of the turning body. Do you think his one plane concept has any merit? Certainly doesn't seem to fit with the arm swing illusion.


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#71 Kiwi2

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:12 PM

 Huntster, on 26 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

 Kiwi2, on 26 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

 beutelwomb, on 26 April 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!

No.

Think of  a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that  they  don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body

I was curious about this answer so thanks!  Is there a feel that you/Jim would tell a student to help get this U and resist the urge to pull down hard trying to create speed?

Yes.


Here is one of the drills that will help.

It is from Jim's "Great Shot!' training manual.

"Inhale on the backswing, pause at the top, then exhale and let the air out of your arms as they fall down. Keep your torso coil as the arms fall to hip height. The right elbow moves closer  to the left elbow as the arms fall . The angle in the right arm stays the same until your left arm reaches 8:30  o'clock, then begins to straighten in  pushing away motion toward your right from the 8:30 position. As the arm fall continues below 8;30 your upper arms begin to contact your chest again. When they reach just above hip height, the upper arms , especially the left, should tightly squeeze your chest. This is re-connection."

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#72 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:34 PM

Wow - I am pretty amazed at all the great questions and feedback here today. Rather than try to reply to each poster individually, I will just try to answer some of the questions and issues brought forward in a simple way.

First - the question of can one change the swing "instantly". The answer is certainly, for some golfers - no question. The method I have developed, and clear to me that Dan has developed a very similar teaching protocl, I have termed Deep Insight. It will result in immediate change to a person's golf swing, but only as Rok said, if certain things are already in place. Body awareness, mental focus and greater than average athletic ability are the three essentials for a supernova light bulb moment to immediately translate into a radical movement pattern change. This change demonstrates the power of the mind/brain to body connection.

If you think of the golf swing as a 3D jigsaw puzzle, and that certain movement pattens are dominant habits that will repeat no matter what, and others are compensations that only repeat because of underlying pattens that have never been understood to even exist by the golfer, that are 100% unconscious, and that serve a purpose, which is to make just enough semi-solid contact to hit a "decent" golf shot by mid to high handicap standards (which one should never use as a standard IMO), then one approach is to remove the underlying cause for the compensatory pattern so that the swing becomes one of fewer moving parts, ie simpler to execute.  That approach - again with the right student - is almost always very fast and to some extent permanent improvement. Will it last on the first tee of your club champiohship? I certainly cannot claim that it will in every person's case, since stress tends to interfere with tne new pattern, but it does greatly improve your odds of the change holding up. Reps over time will deal with that issue though for sure.

Second, other patterns execute only in response to a mental image in the student's mind - either/or subconscious or conscious mind, although the subconcisous images are far more powerful - about what should happen in terms of power application, accuracy, impact and the use of the club, and basic mechanics. This is another reason why so many of my and Dan students are quickly changing their golf swings. When your understanding changes at a very deep level of the mind, your body motion instantly changes for the better.

If you have a wandering mind, poor feel sense awareness for your body and club, poor fitness, or below average athletic ability - the this Deep Insight approach will not work nearly as well for you as for a golfer who has those four things. It will still help a lot, but the changes will take more time.



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#73 Kiwi2

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

 The Pearl, on 26 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

 ryanandrew_golf, on 25 April 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Mr. Waldron I have always enjoyed your posts. I learned about the Arm Swing Illusion from iteach and it was an epiphany for me. Now when I swing, I try to feel like my arms do not move in the horizontal dimension at all. Best of luck to you with your book

I love that - that is exactly what I recommend to my students. Try to feel as if your arms never move in the horizontal dimension until well after impact, and even then only a little.

I am kind of stuck here with the definition of horizontal.  For lack of a better description, it seems to me that what is being described here is a turning of the body with no arm swing (movement) until about waist high or so, where by the club is simply lifted  to the top of the backswing.  Is this accurate?

No.

The independent arm motion kicks in when the hands reach the right hand side of the right leg, for a right handed golfer.

The pivot doesn't stop. There is a blend of motion.

The arm movement in the backswing is actually very small. Jim describes it as  tiny on the backswing. Three inches of movement of the end of the upper arm away from your torso and three inches up.The upper end is where the arm attaches to the shoulder socket.

Edited by Kiwi2, 26 April 2013 - 12:44 PM.


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#74 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

The questions about the arms on backswing and transition, Kiwi's answers were very good, and I will expand a little bit on his responses.

To see through the Illusion, you have to understand that there are two main types of arm motion. Dependent and independent. A lot of the questions are baaed on an underlying premise that is conflating the two types. On the backswing, INDEPENDENTLY of the pivot, the arm muscles are moving the arms in a V shaped motion in front of the chest, the right hand side of the V from the golfers own view of himself, ie the V is the 45 degree angle. The motion is away from the body about 8-10 inches during takeaway segment and then up toward the sky as the right elbow folds. You do this with your arm muscles, and includes extension from the elbow joint (ticeps stretch) and from upper arm to shoulder socket (extension or width). You maintain this pushing away feel all the way to the Top.

During transition segment - and FOR THE ENTIRE FORWARD SWING - there is NO ARM MUSCLES MOVING THE ARMS. Only the Pivot - with a small assist from gravithy during Transition - moves the arms. In a real golf swing, not a training exercise like Kiwi qouted above, the arms are pulled down and back into the body by forces from the Pivot, even though you are still trying to push them away from you with your triceps and upper arms. That pushing away feel is very subtle and very gentle. It creates an even rate of opening up of the right arm angle from around 90 degrees at the Top to about 15-25 degrees at impact for most of our students.  You do NOT pull the arms into your body, and you do NOT throw them out toward the ball or target line. Basically you just keep that gentle pushaway pressure that you started doing on takeaway and then do nothing else except Pivot properly.

The really interesting thing about the Arm Swing Illusion many questions here and in our schools is that the underlying default premise of almost all of the questions is all about what I should be DOING in the active sense, with my arms. Which is really kind of the whole point of the Illusion, no? If you really saw through it, you would understand that you do almost nothing at all with your arms on the backswing and for sure you do nothing at all on the forward swing. For 600 years, the golf swing has been described mostly in terms of doing something with your arms.

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#75 CSagan

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:53 PM

Kiwi thanks for this thread and the info and most importantly thanks Mr. Waldron for sharing your thoughts with us. Fell in love with this concept when I learned it.


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#76 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

Dependent arm motion means the way the arms are BEING MOVED BY THE PIVOT.  So on the backswing, at the same time as you are executing the independent arm motion described above, your body is pivoting and moving the arms mostly in the horizontal dimension, like a baseball swing. Because our head stays steady in golf, our face/eyes is always facing the target line, and this creates a FIXED LINE OF SIGHT TOWARD THE BALL/TARGET LINE.  So from our first person poinnt of view, it "looks like" we have moved our arms "across, around and behind our chest" to some degree, EVEN WHEN YOU DO THE CORRECT MOTION, and here is the key, when in reality, we have only MOVED OUR ARMS/HANDS ACROSS, AROUND AND BEHIND OUR FIXED LINE OF SIGHT, IE OUR FACE/EYES.

The problem with the golf swing is, if you are slightly bullt in the chest and shoulder girdle, and flexible with the upper arms, you can indeed move your hands/arms behind your chest to some degreee, ie "stuck". and then to "unstick" yourself on transition, you will throw the hands/arms away from you and toward your mid-line, or OTT and early release.

So in effect, when under the spell of the Illusion, you end up NOT pivoting correctly, to enough range of motion, and not fast enough in RPM speed, as the tour pros all do, because you are using INDEPENDENT ARM MOTION TO APPLY POWER TO THE BALL AT IMPACT, as your Pivot stalls out.  Meaning your pivot-dependent arm motion actually slows down as you approach impact, and your independent or dis-connected across mid-line arm motion replaces that pivotr -powerd arm motion.

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#77 Ripper212

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:06 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 26 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Dependent arm motion means the way the arms are BEING MOVED BY THE PIVOT.  So on the backswing, at the same time as you are executing the independent arm motion described above, your body is pivoting and moving the arms mostly in the horizontal dimension, like a baseball swing. Because our head stays steady in golf, our face/eyes is always facing the target line, and this creates a FIXED LINE OF SIGHT TOWARD THE BALL/TARGET LINE.  So from our first person poinnt of view, it "looks like" we have moved our arms "across, around and behind our chest" to some degree, EVEN WHEN YOU DO THE CORRECT MOTION, and here is the key, when in reality, we have only MOVED OUR ARMS/HANDS ACROSS, AROUND AND BEHIND OUR FIXED LINE OF SIGHT, IE OUR FACE/EYES.

The problem with the golf swing is, if you are slightly bullt in the chest and shoulder girdle, and flexible with the upper arms, you can indeed move your hands/arms behind your chest to some degreee, ie "stuck". and then to "unstick" yourself on transition, you will throw the hands/arms away from you and toward your mid-line, or OTT and early release.

So in effect, when under the spell of the Illusion, you end up NOT pivoting correctly, to enough range of motion, and not fast enough in RPM speed, as the tour pros all do, because you are using INDEPENDENT ARM MOTION TO APPLY POWER TO THE BALL AT IMPACT, as your Pivot stalls out.  Meaning your pivot-dependent arm motion actually slows down as you approach impact, and your independent or dis-connected across mid-line arm motion replaces that pivotr -powerd arm motion.

Do you believe that Jim Hardy's one plane concept then is an illusion, or just fundamentally incorrect?

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#78 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:07 PM

 Ripper212, on 26 April 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Question for Jim. I really like your approach  but I wonder what you think of Jim Hardy's concepts.  His one plane swing is basically arms swinging around the turning body with the arms and club swing on basically the same plane as the turning shoulders. Your teaching seems more like what he would refer to as a 2 plane swing with arms and club swinging up in front of the turning body. Do you think his one plane concept has any merit? Certainly doesn't seem to fit with the arm swing illusion.

I do not accept the basic premise of Hardy's concept. It is deeply flawed in my opionion, and based on the logical fallacy, The Fallacy of the Extremes. So I cannot answer your question any further, since it would mean starting from the Hardy conceptual filter, which is toxic in my opinion, and could never lead to clarity by going down that road. All great strikers show an up and down V shaped arm motion in front of the chest, the ONLY thing that is different about this the angle of the sides of the V and the height of the top of the V. Or upright vs flat swing plane at the Top, or arms closer or further away from body mid-line, but still always to right of mid-line on backswing and downswing, only to left of mid-line after impact.

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#79 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:09 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 26 April 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

 Ripper212, on 26 April 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Question for Jim. I really like your approach  but I wonder what you think of Jim Hardy's concepts.  His one plane swing is basically arms swinging around the turning body with the arms and club swing on basically the same plane as the turning shoulders. Your teaching seems more like what he would refer to as a 2 plane swing with arms and club swinging up in front of the turning body. Do you think his one plane concept has any merit? Certainly doesn't seem to fit with the arm swing illusion.

I do not accept the basic premise of Hardy's concept. It is deeply flawed in my opionion, and based on the logical fallacy, The Fallacy of the Extremes. So I cannot answer your question any further, since it would mean starting from the Hardy conceptual filter, which is toxic in my opinion, and could never lead to clarity by going down that road. All great strikers show an up and down V shaped arm motion in front of the chest, the ONLY thing that is different about this the angle of the sides of the V and the height of the top of the V. Or upright vs flat swing plane at the Top, or arms closer or further away from body mid-line, but still always to right of mid-line on backswing and downswing, only to left of mid-line after impact.

And those two differences in the shape of the V are simply not fundamentally important enough to base an entire Big Picture golf swing teaching paradigm on - not even close, in my opinion.

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#80 Ripper212

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

Thank you Jim. Beautiful answer and pretty much my experience. I have actually worked with Jim Hardy and I agree with you, not him.


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#81 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:16 PM

 Hstead, on 26 April 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

 ryanandrew_golf, on 25 April 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Mr. Waldron I have always enjoyed your posts. I learned about the Arm Swing Illusion from iteach and it was an epiphany for me. Now when I swing, I try to feel like my arms do not move in the horizontal dimension at all. Best of luck to you with your book

I love that - that is exactly what I recommend to my students. Try to feel as if your arms never move in the horizontal dimension until well after impact, and even then only a little.

I have the same exact feeling.  At the top, it feels like my hands are on the target line instead of well behind me or even over my right shoulder.  It literally feels like my arms are reaching straight out toward the target line.  iteach taught me the same thing.  It sounds like you two have similar beliefs.  Dan uses the "straight right arm drill" which sounds similar to what you are teaching.  Some believe that you can disconnect with the straight right arms, but obviously they do not understand how it works.  If the arms are straight, the chest will follow since they have no other option.  Like you said, it is so much easier.  Instead of crying, I stood there and laughed like a little girl.  I just shook my head.  It was so dang easy when someone explains it to you that knows what they are talking about.  I was just stunned and almost in disbelief that it was so easy to do and how quick I could do it.  Literally in two or three swings I was done.  It is hard for golfers to udnerstand as I have tried to show a couple of guys, but they continue to want to "swing" their arms to the right and behind them.

Really fantastic that Dan and you achieved that swing breakthrough together! My favorite line from the Golfing Machine book "...the mystery of the mechanics of golf fades away when right arm participation is understood."

The concept of arm stretch/extension pressure was one of the four key principles of Percy Boomer and also one of Hogan's keys, he was a big fan of Boomer's book. Snead that this was in fact Hogan's famous secret, since almost to his Finish his right arm was still straight.

Your buddies will continue to "swing their arms" behind themselves until they wake up from under the spell of the Illusion. They are not in control of their bodies consciously, only the subconscious controls how the body moves at normal swing speeds.


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#82 dirthead

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:16 PM

Jim,

Thanks so much for the information.  One question on "connection".  How much connection should there be between the upper arms and chest in your swing model?  For instance, in another thread there was quite a bit of debate on how much Mr. Hogan's arms were connected to his chest/sides through impact.  Do you believe that connection is something that is automatic with the correct backswing/pivot, or should a person consciously make an effort to hold the upper arms in tight connection through impact?
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#83 The Pearl

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:20 PM

JIm,

Would you equate the "pushing away feeling" that you described somewhat the equivalent of trying to maintain a wide arc?   When I took my lessons with Manuel De Le Torre, he really got me thinking about the golf swing as a circle.  I have always suffered from shrinking my "circle", if you will.  It has helped me tremendously to think of swinging as wide as possible as if I am pushing out against my maximum personal swing arc. As you mentioned above, Percy Boomer advocating keeping the arms stretched throughout the entire swing.

Edited by The Pearl, 26 April 2013 - 01:23 PM.


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#84 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:21 PM

 dirthead, on 26 April 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Jim,

Thanks so much for the information.  One question on "connection".  How much connection should there be between the upper arms and chest in your swing model?  For instance, in another thread there was quite a bit of debate on how much Mr. Hogan's arms were connected to his chest/sides through impact.  Do you believe that connection is something that is automatic with the correct backswing/pivot, or should a person consciously make an effort to hold the upper arms in tight connection through impact?

First, one of the main Balance Point training principles is that - with only a few exceptions - the conscious mind never directs the body on "what to do" during the swing, most especially during the Release segment, when things are moving the fastest in a fraction of a second.

Connection is mostly something that happens automatically as a result of a proper Pivot motion coupled with "doing nothing" with the arms. Inertia also plays a role, ie sustaining lag pressure in the upper arms. Pecs contracting at P5 or so and Tilt #2B or mid-thoracic tilt during Release also play a role. An exxageration drill is to squeeze the arms tightly to the chest during Release, credit card in the armpit, etc. But those are just drills, not something that you "do" in a real swing.

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#85 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:26 PM

 The Pearl, on 26 April 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

JIm,

Would you equate the "pushing away feeling" that you described somewhat the equivalent of trying to maintain a wide arc?   When I took my lessons with Manuel De Le Torre, he really got me thinking about the golf swing as a circle.  I have always suffered from shrinking my "circle", if you will.  It has helped me tremendously to think of swinging as wide as possible as if I am pushing out against my maximum personal swing arc.

Yes to all of those points. Most average golfers get narrow with arms on Transition, you want get "wide" a bit. If the target line is "north" and to your right is "east" from the golfers viewpoint of himself, then you need to always feel that first part of Transition, your hands/arms are moving toward the "east" NEVER toward the "north"  or "west".  The Hit Impulse makes your want to move the clubhead and your hands/arms toward the ball or "north' and towards the target or "west" and you really have to be aware enough inside your golf swing to detect that "direcitonal mistake" and move the clubhead and your hands towards the "east".  "Go east, young man!"....apologies to Horace Greeley.

I started a long thread on this topic on the ABS forum several years ago if you need further info on it.


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#86 CSagan

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

Love that "go east" thought. Really makes sure the space between hands and right shoulder stays wide coming down and keeps arms in front of body. Am I thinking of this correct Jim?

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#87 dpb5031

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

 Hstead, on 26 April 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

 Chris Peterich, on 26 April 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

I hear ya,, I soent 5 solid months,,hitting sometimes 4 hrs plus a day beating the cast.  And I did...

A lesson is only good if you apply it..than applying it correctly is the trick..  Everyone expects a "5 ball" and you got it tip.  Doesn't happen,  if I hear something like this,,I run and run very very fast.

CP, there are several of us that it only took 3 to 5 swings.  I have played and tried to "fix" my swing for 20+ years.  Spent hours and hours of slo mo drilss in the living room, I can't begin to guess at how many range balls I have hit, all with little to no real changes that lasted.  Dan fixed it in 3 swings.  Dan will tell you that if you can't improve drasstically in 5 swings or so, something is not right.  He is that good.  Ask temebolo, CSagan, Eag1e, and several others, they have all experienced the "5 swings".  That doesn't mean every does, but a lot do.

I have a couple of kids now and I don't get to spend much time practicing like I did years ago.  I have really spent very little time with my new swing and I have videoed it several times, including yesterday.  Not once has it been different on video and it actually gets better even without practice.  Dan said it would.  He said the more you do it the better it will get.  I have been getting to play about three times per week with  usually at least one or two of those days being 9 holes and I have probably had 3 range sessions total.  

I used to be in the "10,000 reps" camp blah blah blah but once Dan explained how and why things work the way they do, it is easy.  It is WAY easier now than anything I have ever tried where I put in the 1,000 of reps.  This is a peice of cake.  No reason to not be able to do it in 3 swings.
  I have found this thread to be very informative...so thanks to all the contributors.  HStead, in your case it seems to me that iTeach gave you the final piece of the puzzle, and that is awesome!  I can see the difference in your before and after swings for sure.  I think you might be misleading a few people here though with your "it only took 3 swings" reference.  I am not doubting you at all, rather I just think it is important to acknowledge that you had a damn good foundation (due IMHO, in large part to your many years of hard work and thousands of reps) before going to see Dan.  Sure, Dan unlocked that final missing piece, but at least acknowledge and give yourself credit for having worked your butt off to get your fundamentals sound enough so that fixing you in 3 swings was possible.  I just don't want people to be mislead into thinking that it's possible to show up as a 10 hc, take 3 swings, and leave the range as a scratch.  For me, this arm swing illusion is making sense and I think it will help with my flaw of letting the right elbow collapse and get too far behind me.  In spite of it, somehow I get to a good impact position (with no flip), but I know it will be more efficient if I can get eliminate the unnecessary arm swing/collapse move and required compensatory recovery moves.

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#88 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

 CSagan, on 26 April 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Love that "go east" thought. Really makes sure the space between hands and right shoulder stays wide coming down and keeps arms in front of body. Am I thinking of this correct Jim?

Yes, exactly right.

It kind of all really boils down to this: are you intending to apply the clubhead to the ball with the spiral-shaped un-coiling motion of your Pivot, with a left arm that is still on about a 45 degree angle to the right of mid-line, ie "connected", and with the arms and chest moving at the same RPM speed during Release, OR - are you stalling your Pivot, and slapping at the ball with a dis-connected arms motion?

How one perceives the Release and Impact segment has a tremendous influence over all parts of your golf swing.

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#89 kg1128

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:26 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

 HappyGolf, on 25 April 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Jim... could you explain that impact illusion (4 inches past the ball?) that you mentioned on the other thread, please.

Thanks in adv.... :good:

This is for learning to overcome the early release Hit Impulse flaw. Best done with a driver but can be done with any club, just works better with longer clubs since the ball is closer to left heel in stance. You do it in slow mo first. Look at a spot target-side of the golf ball about 4 inches in front of it, and then Pivot Thrust to move your hands with fully set wrists so that your hands pass your "line of sight" to that point in front of the ball. Do it several times and imagine what it would like to see it at full speed in your swing. Then do it with a half speed motion. Then try a normal swing at half speed and look to see the blur of your hands passing your line of sight with the look and feel of at least some wrist c0ck and hinge of right wrist still intact. A "no release, release" look and feel. It will feel like you will block it dead right on a 45 degree when you do it right and your habit is to throw the wrist angles away too early.

You need to keep proper grip pressure for this drill to work, probably much lighter than most average golfers employ, so that the momentum from your Pivot Thrust will open the wrist c0ck angle for you with no effort on your part. I also call this the Do Nothing With The Wrist Lag drill. You do not hold on to it and you do not throw it away. You simply fire your hips, core and torso starting at around P6 and watch the blur of your hands pass your line of sight.

It works because it extends your swing time sense a bit later into the future, the swing will feel like it is happening at a slower speed, even though it is not, but your time sense will always be slower when you release later and the opposite when you release early.

I try to embrace that feeling of being late with the wrists opening up when I find myself sometimes releasing early. I am not talking about being late with the Pivot Thrust, that would result in a big block to the right. For early releasers of wrist angles, being "on time" will always feel like being "late", and feeling "on time" will always be in fact early, with a flipped right wrist and loss of forward shaft lean.

Poor mental focus and too much emotional energy invested in the shot outcome - especially if you suffer from a lack of distance inferiority complex - will cause you to release wrist angles too early. You really need to clearly focus the mind on seeing that hand path blur and you can actually see it, I am not kidding!  You can also see the blur of the clubhead striking the ball, another one of our Balance Point swing fundamentals.

You need to stay awake and aware, in the moment, with an engaged but quiet mind - to see the hand blur past your line of sight. And obviously a very steady head to do so as well. If your head is bobbing around or looking up, you don't have any line of sight to use as a reference point.

Hope that helps!

Jim, thanks for your insight. I just want to clarify something about your post above regarding the mental image to overcome hit impulse.

The horrendous picture I attached is what I see at address.

Are you saying that, during downswing through impact, you want your hands to travel through the GREY line to the target 4 inches ahead of the ball in your line of sight?

It feels like, if arms are passive through the impact zone, hands will travel through the green line, as rotation through the pivot bring your arms around the body, unless
1) arm swings out (i know this is a no already) or
2) center of rotation shifts to the left slightly during transition so the swing arc bottoms out more left

Thanks.

(again, these are not actual positions you would see from a birds eye view camera, these are what my eyes see)

Attached Thumbnails

  • aaa.JPG

Edited by kg1128, 26 April 2013 - 02:41 PM.


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#90 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:47 PM

Actually, the drill is NOT about directing your hand path in any way, ie not a mechanical drill. It is about simply observing the path your hands take just before, during and after impact, with the intention/feel of the wrists maintaining their angles. An exaggeration drill, a mental focus drill - not about doing something with hand path. The key is your line of sight - which you did not include in your diagram. And yes - actual correct hand path would be more like the green line, not grey line. Actually closer to your toe line than the green line even. You grey dot labelled hands approaching impact is too close to the target line. Move your black hand spot a little to the left and then imagine how that would have just past your line of sight down to the 4 inch spot and you will get the idea better.


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