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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#4261 Jim Waldron

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:15 PM

View PostPJ72, on 14 January 2019 - 06:42 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 26 April 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Wow - I am pretty amazed at all the great questions and feedback here today. Rather than try to reply to each poster individually, I will just try to answer some of the questions and issues brought forward in a simple way.

First - the question of can one change the swing "instantly". The answer is certainly, for some golfers - no question. The method I have developed, and clear to me that Dan has developed a very similar teaching protocl, I have termed Deep Insight. It will result in immediate change to a person's golf swing, but only as Rok said, if certain things are already in place. Body awareness, mental focus and greater than average athletic ability are the three essentials for a supernova light bulb moment to immediately translate into a radical movement pattern change. This change demonstrates the power of the mind/brain to body connection.

If you think of the golf swing as a 3D jigsaw puzzle, and that certain movement pattens are dominant habits that will repeat no matter what, and others are compensations that only repeat because of underlying pattens that have never been understood to even exist by the golfer, that are 100% unconscious, and that serve a purpose, which is to make just enough semi-solid contact to hit a "decent" golf shot by mid to high handicap standards (which one should never use as a standard IMO), then one approach is to remove the underlying cause for the compensatory pattern so that the swing becomes one of fewer moving parts, ie simpler to execute.  That approach - again with the right student - is almost always very fast and to some extent permanent improvement. Will it last on the first tee of your club champiohship? I certainly cannot claim that it will in every person's case, since stress tends to interfere with tne new pattern, but it does greatly improve your odds of the change holding up. Reps over time will deal with that issue though for sure.

Second, other patterns execute only in response to a mental image in the student's mind - either/or subconscious or conscious mind, although the subconcisous images are far more powerful - about what should happen in terms of power application, accuracy, impact and the use of the club, and basic mechanics. This is another reason why so many of my and Dan students are quickly changing their golf swings. When your understanding changes at a very deep level of the mind, your body motion instantly changes for the better.

If you have a wandering mind, poor feel sense awareness for your body and club, poor fitness, or below average athletic ability - the this Deep Insight approach will not work nearly as well for you as for a golfer who has those four things. It will still help a lot, but the changes will take more time.
This is brilliant Jim. You've just proven to me that this works, and you're the real deal.
I've had that supernova already...just in a few days reading about it. I've cured my lack of arm extensive post impact, leading to poor release. Nothing has worked before for me...and this tilt switch cured it in 1 swing! Yes, 1 swing.

The funny thing is, I've read through this first few pages of this thread a few times, and somehow i missed the tilt switch section. I haven't played golf for 12 months, and i vowed to rebuild my swing as i wasn't happy with it before. Went from 5hcp to 9hcp in 12hcp in 12 months and was climbing higher, to maybe 15/16hcp. And now I'm reading the thread again, it somehow sunk in this time.

I'm wondering what other key thoughts i can learn next? Short game is my next weakness,so hoping for something mind blowing too!

Great to hear about your breakthrough!

Pretty normal to need to hear the same thing multiple times before finally achieving that "light bulb" moment.....I get that feedback all the time from students.

My short game videos are done taping, now in editing process, first one will be out likely in April or May.


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#4262 PJ72

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 10:09 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically.  All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING  with the arms.

Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?  

Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist c0ck is a little tricky at the same time.

Edited by PJ72, 23 January 2019 - 04:27 PM.


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#4263 chigolfer1

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:37 PM

View PostPJ72, on 23 January 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically.  All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING  with the arms.

Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?  

Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist c0ck is a little tricky at the same time.

This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak?  In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term?  Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

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#4264 PJ72

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 06:36 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 14 May 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

View PostJPeacockGolf, on 14 May 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 14 May 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

View PostJPeacockGolf, on 14 May 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 14 May 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Glad to hear this is helping, Duc - it ain't easy to "get this" piece of the Arm Illusion puzzle but it is a SuperNova size light bulb for many when you do. Especially any golfer in those two opposing camps, ie reverse pivoters vs upper swing center swayers. Explains why Steady Head fundamental has stood the test of time in golf.

The BS is the easy part, forward swing much more difficult to see the tilt happen for most.

Emotionally, the Tilt Switch is a really "scary" move to make for those who are not doing it at all or not nearly enough. It feels crazy wrong to my students who first attempt to learn it. If you are an early wrist c0ck releaser you will hit the ball so fat when Switching it will blow your mind...one reason that it is so vital to fix that issue. I often fix wrist c0ck throwaway issue precisely by having the student work on the Switch, but only if there wrists and elbows are in good shape, ie no tendonitis, since this move can be hard on those body parts until you stop throwing the wrist angle away.

Tiger and Sergio are two of the tour pros who do the Switch really well.
I assume this is the "lean"into the target we see in Sergio's transition?

Not exactly sure what you mean by "lean", maybe you are seeing his upper center move a bit to the left, ie lateral left to re-establish his upper center stable axis of rotation point? Many tour pros do that move, ie return the sternum to their Address location, if they did the one to two inch or so move to the right on the backswing.

Tilt right is just that - bending from mid-back to the right of the golfer. Same thing as left tilt - don't try to "see it" from a particular view in the golf swing. From caddie view you are only seeing about half the total tilt right that is really there in the downswing.
I got you. So tilt left would happen kinda down toward the ball because of the pivot?

Yeah, kind of - but that thought might very well induce a bad reverse pivot in some folks reading this, ie much more than 20 degrees of tilt. As a general coaching rule, I do not like to EVER use the ball as a reference point. I have worked with students with severe reverse pivots and for some of them this is a really, really tough thing to fix. The Illusion is so powerful that they keep doing 50 degrees of left tilt and hardly any core and torso rotation. The weird thing is - you can actually hit a short iron pretty well with that move and plenty long. Put a driver in their hand and a ball teed up, and watch out! I have seen those guys hit the ground 18 inches behind the ball and hard! And try scrubbing those white paint marks off the top of your shiny new driver head!

Again - dont use ANY visual reference point to understand how to tilt left.

Jim is all this stuff in one of your downloads? I want to invest in this and start learning the moves, one by one. Then get a lesson with you in UK.

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#4265 biffstix

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 08:03 PM

Iím 30 pages deep. DEEP. The fog is lifting. Itís comforting to know that the whole thread has not been derailed by trolls. This has been the most important info for me in a long time.


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#4266 Rohlio

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 08:17 PM

View Postbiffstix, on 25 January 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

Iím 30 pages deep. DEEP. The fog is lifting. Itís comforting to know that the whole thread has not been derailed by trolls. This has been the most important info for me in a long time.

You have to treat the trolls as amusing diversions to be chuckled about allowing you time to digest the heavy info in between. Enjoy the thread, it changed my golf game forever.
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#4267 Jim Waldron

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:47 PM

View PostPJ72, on 23 January 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically.  All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING  with the arms.

Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?  

Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist c0ck is a little tricky at the same time.

Yes - you want to create the flat left wrist during takeaway by hinging backwards with right wrist.  Blend in the c0cking motion as well.

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#4268 Jim Waldron

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:49 PM

View Postchigolfer1, on 25 January 2019 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostPJ72, on 23 January 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically.  All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING  with the arms.

Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?  

Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist c0ck is a little tricky at the same time.

This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak?  In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term?  Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

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#4269 Jim Waldron

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:51 PM

Jim is all this stuff in one of your downloads? I want to invest in this and start learning the moves, one by one. Then get a lesson with you in UK.


Module Four video on the Pivot covers Tilt Switch - along with a ton of other parts of the Pivot.

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#4270 PJ72

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 06:00 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 January 2019 - 11:51 PM, said:

Jim is all this stuff in one of your downloads? I want to invest in this and start learning the moves, one by one. Then get a lesson with you in UK.


Module Four video on the Pivot covers Tilt Switch - along with a ton of other parts of the Pivot.
I just bought you great shot ebook. There should be some coverage in there?


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#4271 PJ72

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 06:08 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 January 2019 - 11:47 PM, said:

View PostPJ72, on 23 January 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 May 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically.  All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING  with the arms.

Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?  

Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist c0ck is a little tricky at the same time.

Yes - you want to create the flat left wrist during takeaway by hinging backwards with right wrist.  Blend in the c0cking motion as well.
Love it Jim! I actually figured that out using mirror work. I've never hinged my wrists like that before....was always a touch across the line from cupping the left wrist and keeping the right one straight/flat. Another light bulb!

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