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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#4231 designpunk

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 02:27 PM

 getitdaily, on 12 November 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

 designpunk, on 12 November 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

 getitdaily, on 08 November 2018 - 07:04 AM, said:

Oh, and tiger did pushaway.

I'd think I'd rather believe Butch Harmon and Tiger Woods themselves on that matter (both of whom have described the takeaway in detail, and Butch who I have personally spoken too) than some internet golfer.

They may describe it a certain way. Good instructors have this way of describing what they want their students to do in a way the student understands the feel.

But hey, I didn't talk to butch. I think I'd rather believe what I saw tiger do than some internet golfer who said hi to butch one day and counts that as "talking g" to him.

It doesn't really matter though. What Jim advocates has helped numerous people, including me.

And by the way, I'm no slouch internet golfer. I know a good bit about the golf swing. What Jim teaches helped me understand what I needed to feel to cure an inside and flat takeaway problem that plagued me for a while.

I was hovering around a 2 when I finally decided to peek into this pinned thread. Since then, since getting the feeling of what Jim teaches I've dropped to as low as a +.2. I have hovered between .4 and +.2 for about the last 7 months.

So it doesn't really matter what tiger did or what butch said, Jim's principles work and help people. That's what this thread is about.

If you'd rather be right so you'll go away then...you're right. Now, can you leave this thread for people who want to understand the concept to see if it helps, rather than run the same retread over and over?

As I've said several times over; I have no issue with Jim's or anyone else's swing theories. If a swing method works for you, stick to it no matter how crazy or off the wall it may be.

What I am debating is Jim's frequent claim that Tiger Woods utalises Jim's teachings by way of pushing the club away to start his backswing. A bold and wild claim with zero substance and against everything Tiger Woods has said himself in clinics I have been to in person, watched on TV and in writings he has made. Plus testimony from the man who coached him, Mr Butch Harmon. A 1 piece takeaway is taking everything back in 1 piece - it cannot be confused linguistically of someone describing a push away on a 45 degree angle...

Jim choses to post on Golfwrx over using a forum on his own website, so I believe public questions are to be expected; especially if you are selling a method with the claim that there is an "illusion" done by Tiger Woods.


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#4232 Jim Waldron

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 03:34 PM

OK, "dpunk" - here is the article you asked for.  I seriously doubt it will have any influence on your thinking, since you are clearly emotionally committed to your wrong belief, and so will find some way to rationalize this evidence away.  

Here is Tiger himself in this Golf Digest article from 1997 or so talking about extending his arms and "pushing away" of his arms. And anyone with a half a brain can see in the photo that he is pushing his arms away from his torso during takeaway.

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#4233 Jim Waldron

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:16 PM

20181128_122044 (1) - Copy.jpg

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#4234 Jim Waldron

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:19 PM

20181128_122106.jpg

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#4235 getitdaily

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:56 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:


It's literally in quotes...lol.


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#4236 Tanner25

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 08:08 PM

 getitdaily, on 28 November 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:


It's literally in quotes...lol.

Good stuff. But, push away at the end of the back swing is different than an early ASI push away, no?

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#4237 FourTops

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:13 PM

 Kiwi2, on 25 April 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

A major part of Jim Waldron’s teaching is based on overcoming what he calls
the Arm Swing Illusion. Jim has found that many of his students improve
rapidly once they become aware of it.

Questions have been asked on the forum for an explanation. With Jim’s approval a condensed and simplified explanation follows.

What is it?
It is an illusion which is created by our natural tendency to view the swing
in a two dimensional way. This causes us to see the swinging motion of the
arms hands and club as a sideways movement across the chest and around the
torso.
It appears that way to us as we look down at the ball during the swing. It
also appears that way as we observe others swinging.
This has caused problems for many as they try to learn the golf swing.

What really happens with the arms in a good motion?
If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the
target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist
high.
The right elbow then bends to around 90 degrees which raises the left arm.
The independent arm action then stops as the torso continues turning so that
the shoulder girdle is at a 90 degree angle to the spine.
In other words the arms push away from the torso rather than being pulled in
towards it.

Jim has some drills that help learn this and they work. But they are part of
his teaching and you will need to either take a lesson from him, or wait
until his books are published to learn them.

How do I know what it is?
I have spent time with Jim in Hawaii over two occasions not so many years ago. Both experiences were very positive.The first time I attended his Ultimate Golf School (two attendees). The Second, his Great Shot (6 attendees) and Rip it to the Target mental game school (I was the only attendee). Jim then invited me back to help. Other commitments have stopped me doing this to date. I have his DVDs and his manuals.

I hope that answered some of your questions.

Jim has posted great comments about meta-awareness.

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#4238 Rohlio

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:23 PM

 getitdaily, on 28 November 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:


It's literally in quotes...lol.

But, but, "fake news"! mAh prezious opinionz!

So so good, glad you found that and posted it Jim.

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#4239 designpunk

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 04:10 AM

 Tanner25, on 28 November 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

 getitdaily, on 28 November 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:


It's literally in quotes...lol.

Good stuff. But, push away at the end of the back swing is different than an early ASI push away, no?

Yes it's totally different.

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#4240 designpunk

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 04:42 AM

 Jim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:


Nice try.

But this is about maintaining width in his arc.

For the umpteenth time: Extending the club away from the target is not the same as pushing it away at a 45 degree angle to the target.

Butch has ALWAYS liked his players to get WIDTH in the backswing and be WIDE at the top. As mentioned several weeks back; when I has my time with Butch he liked all of us there and his tour players to keep width and have the feeling that the arms were as far away from our heads as possible at the top of the swing. But this wasn't a push away (in fact he stressed 100% on maintaining the triangle to start the swing) and it wasn't to prevent the club from being inside (the 1 piece move does that according to Butch Harmon) it was to have as wide of an swing arc as possible for power reasons.

Butch Harmon - Maintaining Width
https://www.youtube....h?v=d8oYzqy3hDU

Butch Harmon - One Piece Takeaway
https://www.youtube....h?v=8x535X_3zyw

Edited by designpunk, 03 December 2018 - 04:43 AM.


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#4241 designpunk

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 04:44 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 28 November 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:


It's literally in quotes...lol.

Posted Image

Edited by designpunk, 03 December 2018 - 04:46 AM.


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#4242 jonsnow

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 12:16 PM

View Postdesignpunk, on 03 December 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:


Nice try.

But this is about maintaining width in his arc.

For the umpteenth time: Extending the club away from the target is not the same as pushing it away at a 45 degree angle to the target.

Butch has ALWAYS liked his players to get WIDTH in the backswing and be WIDE at the top. As mentioned several weeks back; when I has my time with Butch he liked all of us there and his tour players to keep width and have the feeling that the arms were as far away from our heads as possible at the top of the swing. But this wasn't a push away (in fact he stressed 100% on maintaining the triangle to start the swing) and it wasn't to prevent the club from being inside (the 1 piece move does that according to Butch Harmon) it was to have as wide of an swing arc as possible for power reasons.

Butch Harmon - Maintaining Width
https://www.youtube....h?v=d8oYzqy3hDU

Butch Harmon - One Piece Takeaway
https://www.youtube....h?v=8x535X_3zyw

I feel like I'm reading someone argue in Newspeak in 1984... :dntknw:
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#4243 getitdaily

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 06:23 PM

View Postdesignpunk, on 03 December 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:


Nice try.

But this is about maintaining width in his arc.

For the umpteenth time: Extending the club away from the target is not the same as pushing it away at a 45 degree angle to the target.

Butch has ALWAYS liked his players to get WIDTH in the backswing and be WIDE at the top. As mentioned several weeks back; when I has my time with Butch he liked all of us there and his tour players to keep width and have the feeling that the arms were as far away from our heads as possible at the top of the swing. But this wasn't a push away (in fact he stressed 100% on maintaining the triangle to start the swing) and it wasn't to prevent the club from being inside (the 1 piece move does that according to Butch Harmon) it was to have as wide of an swing arc as possible for power reasons.

Butch Harmon - Maintaining Width
https://www.youtube....h?v=d8oYzqy3hDU

Butch Harmon - One Piece Takeaway
https://www.youtube....h?v=8x535X_3zyw

You think the push away Jim advocates means losing the triangle in the takeaway?

Or just give it a break and start your own thread on how swing..

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#4244 Jim Waldron

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:23 PM

My upcoming winter teaching schedule: January 25-Feb 28 at Ko Olina Golf Club on Oahu, March 19-April 1 in Palm Springs.

My summer season will see a return to Quail Valley Golf Course in Portland, Oregon for the 24th consecutive year, first weekend of May, and running through end of October.

Please PM me for more info.

Jim

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#4245 Rohlio

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:46 PM

View Postdesignpunk, on 03 December 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 28 November 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:


Nice try.

But this is about maintaining width in his arc.

For the umpteenth time: Extending the club away from the target is not the same as pushing it away at a 45 degree angle to the target.

Butch has ALWAYS liked his players to get WIDTH in the backswing and be WIDE at the top. As mentioned several weeks back; when I has my time with Butch he liked all of us there and his tour players to keep width and have the feeling that the arms were as far away from our heads as possible at the top of the swing. But this wasn't a push away (in fact he stressed 100% on maintaining the triangle to start the swing) and it wasn't to prevent the club from being inside (the 1 piece move does that according to Butch Harmon) it was to have as wide of an swing arc as possible for power reasons.

Butch Harmon - Maintaining Width
https://www.youtube....h?v=d8oYzqy3hDU

Butch Harmon - One Piece Takeaway
https://www.youtube....h?v=8x535X_3zyw

You are flat out embarrassing yourself with how little comprehension you have of what Jim is advocating here. Everytime you speak you reveal your ignorance. Just stop it is tiresome and you long since proved you lack basic intellectual honesty and have no interest in learning anything. You are only here to pick a fight. Grow up and go away.

Edited by Rohlio, 03 December 2018 - 09:47 PM.


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#4246 HogansHoover

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 11:30 AM

ASI was probably the biggest door opener I had in regards to swing progress. Mainly because it allowed me to realise the power of the Subconsious Minds intent over the mechanics of my swing.

Jim- do you think that people can use the process of overcoming the ASI as a tool to open other misconceptions and misbeliefs of what should happen in the swing?

Edited by HogansHoover, 04 December 2018 - 11:30 AM.


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#4247 Jim Waldron

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 11:41 AM

View PostHogansHoover, on 04 December 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

ASI was probably the biggest door opener I had in regards to swing progress. Mainly because it allowed me to realise the power of the Subconsious Minds intent over the mechanics of my swing.

Jim- do you think that people can use the process of overcoming the ASI as a tool to open other misconceptions and misbeliefs of what should happen in the swing?
Y

Yes absolutely.  ASI is just one of several 2D optical illusions that "program" the subconscious mind Swing Map with wrong understanding of what the body is actually doing in a good golf swing. Once you form a strong belief at the conscious mind level, normally that belief then is imprinted into your subconscious mind, and once there - it can be very hard to remove it!

The swing change Process is all about understanding how to make the new movement patterns originate in the Swing Map, so that your body will manifest those changes effortlessly and automatically as dominant habits when playing golf. As opposed to the traditional instruction approach of your conscious mind trying to force your body to make the change.

And this is why the equation for a successful swing change is this: awareness = insight = change.

It works really well, and not just in golf - in life too!

The equation in traditional conscious mind golf is this: theory = think of the theory while swinging = hope you get lucky one to three times out of ten shots = attribute that random lucky shot to the theory thinking = rinse and repeat = wonder why you never achieve your goal of consistent shotmaking.....mass insanity!

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#4248 FourTops

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 11:27 PM

It's all about Meta-Awareness now.

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#4249 Conner Golf

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 05:31 AM

O.K. I am going attempt a different way to explain this illusion as I see it. First I believe the golf swing plane is a two dimensional line drawn from the ball center and your club face center. Your hands at address are not on the swing plane, giving us a third dimension. As we turn back our left arm and hands turn and rotate to the two dimensional swing plane in line behind the club face center. How quickly a golfer rotates to the swing plane can be quickly(which is more visible),can be paced to be completed at the top or many even finish in the down swing. In the down swing our left arm and hands lead our clubface on the two dimensional swing line (plane) till our turn over begins. That is not only the turn over of the club face from open to square to closed. It is also the turn over from our left arm ands hands on the swing plane, to both hands and arms off the swing plane, to the right arm and hands turn and rotation to the two dimensional swing plane into the follow through.

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#4250 Tanner25

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 08:25 AM

Thought this video was a good explanation of the ASI. It was also interesting to hear, it wasn't described as ASI. But, the arms lift on the backswing, while turning because that's what arms do best, they don't function properly when going side to side.

https://www.youtube....h?v=ktTOkXTqYag

Jim, I have a trail knee that is contstantly getting tweaked (re-injured). Do you think the ASI might be more knee friendly on the backswing?

Thanks,

Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 12 December 2018 - 08:27 AM.


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