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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#4201 Milkers

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 02:47 AM

View Postdesignpunk, on 20 August 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

I am not seeing any push away or lift in Tiger Wood's swing, so I am not sure he does this move as is claimed earlier in the thread.

Tiger Woods has a classic 1 piece move and turns the club with his shoulders. His arms and hands are passive. The natural folding of the right arm and rotation of the left arm after the first few feet is what raises the golf club.

If you twist a video  so he's upright it's clearer to see there is no pushaway and no illusion.

https://media.giphy....rBEk7/giphy.gif

Posted Image

View Postdesignpunk, on 23 August 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 August 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Your understanding of the illusion is deeply flawed.  


Who said anything about the "illusion"? I didn't mention any illusion, I just said Tiger Woods doesn't push the club away from him which you claim he does.



Post-truth era I guess.


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#4202 designpunk

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 03:18 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

Go read the Golf Digest article where Tiger says "arm pushaway" and DOES IT at a time he was working with Butch.  

You haven't posted it, so none of us can actually read it.

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

You obviously do not understand how the blending part works - I get it, its a tough one for some folks.

With all due respect I get it; you're the guy above the plane here (Tip: Look at your right elbow position versus Tiger's - this is the most clear distinction between someone who's pushed the club away and someone who's performed a classic one piece takeaway).

You are sensitive to questions or critique of your unique swing methods, but I keep stressing I am not here to debate if your position is better or worse than Tiger's or if your swing ideas are better or worse than Butch Harmon's or any other PGA Tour coach who teaches a 1-piece takeaway.

My point is to show Tiger Woods does not, and never has, done this move; which has now been clearly demonstrated.

Posted Image

Edited by designpunk, 24 August 2018 - 05:51 AM.


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#4203 dpb5031

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 07:02 AM

View Postdesignpunk, on 24 August 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

Maybe you could show some of the PGA Tour stars you coach and we can look at their takeaways to better see the move?

DP, you're certainly living up to the second syllable of your moniker...lol!

I think Jim has explained that in the photo of him that you're nitpicking, he was most likely intentionally exaggerating the move for demonstration purposes. BTW,with the slightest left forearm rotation the clubhead would be very close to Tiger's, even with the pushaway and different right arm orientation.  

Jim's ASI swing thread has been pretty popular here and he's helped many a golfer. It's been my observation that he's always polite and respectful and shares a lot of knowledge for free. I've never seen him jump into other intructor's threads and try to derail or discredit.  Always a gentleman...

You've stated your point and it's quite clear that you dont agree with the pushaway that Jim teaches.  Perhaps start your own thread and put YOUR comprehensive swing theory out there for scrutiny and see if it gains as much traction and staying power as this one?

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#4204 designpunk

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 07:58 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 24 August 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

DP, you're certainly living up to the second syllable of your moniker...lol!


Charming.

View Postdpb5031, on 24 August 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

I think Jim has explained that in the photo of him that you're nitpicking, he was most likely intentionally exaggerating the move for demonstration purposes. BTW,with the slightest left forearm rotation the clubhead would be very close to Tiger's, even with the pushaway and different right arm orientation.  

Why is it nitpicking? It's a still from Jim's video demonstrating the pushaway. If he's exaggerating he certainly hasn't pre-faced that in the video.

Even in videos where Jim isn't talking about the pushaway he is still above and over the plane. See below.

Compare this position with a player performing a traditional 1-piece move as taught by many mainstream instructors (such as Butch) and the difference is obvious (see Tiger above) the club the arms and the hands, the elbow and the right shoulder are all in a totally different position. That's the ONLY point here.

It's no slight on Jim's technique or swing theory whatsoever, if this move improves your golf, your scores or even your enjoyment that's all that matters right? But to claim this is how most Tour Pros do it, including Tiger is demonstrably wrong.


Posted Image

Edited by designpunk, 24 August 2018 - 08:01 AM.


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#4205 dpb5031

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 08:15 AM

Tour players all do a much better job of keeping the triangle in front of the chest.  Most hacks allow the triangle to collapse, the trail arm to over-fold with the lead arm pinned across their chest. The traditional concept of a "low & slow one-piece takeaway" often results in the handpath and club going way too inside without proper wrist hinge.

Jim's pushaway concept combined with an earlier wrist set combats this and helps the player maintain the arm structure that helps keep the triangle more intact and in front of the player's core.  Similar to when iTeach (another reputable instructor on Golfwrx) talks about trying to keep the trail arm straight in the backswing.

I remember Tiger on Golf Talk Live with Peter Kessler... back in the late 90s I believe, talking about this very subject. I dont recall verbatim, but he was working on maintaining width, shortening his armswing, and keeping the triangle more in front of his chest. This is not incongruous with Jim's pushaway concept. Tiger spoke of doing countless pause at the top/ freezer drills to correct his arm overrun and getting stuck.

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#4206 moehogan

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 11:28 AM

View Postdesignpunk, on 24 August 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

Go read the Golf Digest article where Tiger says "arm pushaway" and DOES IT at a time he was working with Butch.  

You haven't posted it, so none of us can actually read it.

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

You obviously do not understand how the blending part works - I get it, its a tough one for some folks.

With all due respect I get it; you're the guy above the plane here (Tip: Look at your right elbow position versus Tiger's - this is the most clear distinction between someone who's pushed the club away and someone who's performed a classic one piece takeaway).

You are sensitive to questions or critique of your unique swing methods, but I keep stressing I am not here to debate if your position is better or worse than Tiger's or if your swing ideas are better or worse than Butch Harmon's or any other PGA Tour coach who teaches a 1-piece takeaway.

My point is to show Tiger Woods does not, and never has, done this move; which has now been clearly demonstrated.

Posted Image
Look closely ... Tiger appears to have more right wrist bend that brings the shaft more inside.

Edited by moehogan, 24 August 2018 - 01:13 PM.


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#4207 dpb5031

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 02:08 PM

View Postmoehogan, on 24 August 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postdesignpunk, on 24 August 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

Go read the Golf Digest article where Tiger says "arm pushaway" and DOES IT at a time he was working with Butch.  

You haven't posted it, so none of us can actually read it.

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

You obviously do not understand how the blending part works - I get it, its a tough one for some folks.

With all due respect I get it; you're the guy above the plane here (Tip: Look at your right elbow position versus Tiger's - this is the most clear distinction between someone who's pushed the club away and someone who's performed a classic one piece takeaway).

You are sensitive to questions or critique of your unique swing methods, but I keep stressing I am not here to debate if your position is better or worse than Tiger's or if your swing ideas are better or worse than Butch Harmon's or any other PGA Tour coach who teaches a 1-piece takeaway.

My point is to show Tiger Woods does not, and never has, done this move; which has now been clearly demonstrated.

Posted Image
Look closely ... Tiger appears to have more right wrist bend that brings the shaft more inside.

Yes, some right wrist extension combined with left forearm clockwise rotation.
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#4208 Jasonic

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 05:58 PM

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#4209 designpunk

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Posted 28 August 2018 - 10:54 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 24 August 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

View Postmoehogan, on 24 August 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postdesignpunk, on 24 August 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

Go read the Golf Digest article where Tiger says "arm pushaway" and DOES IT at a time he was working with Butch.  

You haven't posted it, so none of us can actually read it.

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 August 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

You obviously do not understand how the blending part works - I get it, its a tough one for some folks.

With all due respect I get it; you're the guy above the plane here (Tip: Look at your right elbow position versus Tiger's - this is the most clear distinction between someone who's pushed the club away and someone who's performed a classic one piece takeaway).

You are sensitive to questions or critique of your unique swing methods, but I keep stressing I am not here to debate if your position is better or worse than Tiger's or if your swing ideas are better or worse than Butch Harmon's or any other PGA Tour coach who teaches a 1-piece takeaway.

My point is to show Tiger Woods does not, and never has, done this move; which has now been clearly demonstrated.

Posted Image
Look closely ... Tiger appears to have more right wrist bend that brings the shaft more inside.

Yes, some right wrist extension combined with left forearm clockwise rotation.

So basically the difference between pushing it away on a 45° angle and a one-piece move. Which is exactly the point.
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#4210 flatnstuck

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 08:36 PM

View PostMilkers, on 24 August 2018 - 02:47 AM, said:

View Postdesignpunk, on 20 August 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

I am not seeing any push away or lift in Tiger Wood's swing, so I am not sure he does this move as is claimed earlier in the thread.

Tiger Woods has a classic 1 piece move and turns the club with his shoulders. His arms and hands are passive. The natural folding of the right arm and rotation of the left arm after the first few feet is what raises the golf club.

If you twist a video  so he's upright it's clearer to see there is no pushaway and no illusion.

https://media.giphy....rBEk7/giphy.gif

Posted Image

View Postdesignpunk, on 23 August 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 August 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Your understanding of the illusion is deeply flawed.  


Who said anything about the "illusion"? I didn't mention any illusion, I just said Tiger Woods doesn't push the club away from him which you claim he does.



Post-truth era I guess.

Itís funny. I see the push away clear as day just as his hands move through the hash mark on that line.



Btw, thank you for this idea Jim. It and the right arm resistance to the top have reshaped my takeaway and stopped that right elbow from sucking behind me at the top. My arms feel very solid now.


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#4211 Jim Waldron

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 11:07 AM

I have gotten quite a few inquires lately as to which one video I would recommend of the 13 we have for sale/download.

The answer, of course, is always "It depends" on the person asking the question, ie what stage of development their golf swing is currently showing.

But in general, I think for the folks who are in the mid to low handicap range (majority of folks here) Module Six on the Six Swing Segments is probably the best one to start with. It covers all the mechanics of the golf swing model that I teach, with a fair amount of technical detail.

Here is the trailer: https://www.youtube....h?v=tqF0gyQwcd0

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#4212 Jim Waldron

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 11:18 AM

We are done with all of the videotaping for my next video series, which will be devoted exclusively to the mental game of golf.

This will be mainly about my concept of "The Art of Shotmaking" which is all about the pre-shot routine and how to use your mind - including  thoughts, awareness, mental focus, and emotions - to play better golf.

We also cover the essential material regarding being "Ball Bound" and the related Destructive Impulses such as Hit and Steering, and how to "flinch-proof" your swing and stroke.

First of four videos will be available around end of October to early November.

We have one more day of videotaping (scheduled for later this week) to finish our upcoming video series devoted to the Short Game.  This will cover all of the detailed mechanics of chipping, pitching, bunker shots, distance wedges and specialty short game shots. We expect to have the first of five videos available for sale on our site by next April.

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#4213 jonsnow

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 09:08 AM

Jim, I've been working my way through this thread for quite some time & have found it to be very enlightening. Several (maybe many?) pages back I came across several posts about "tilt switch" & wondered if you could revisit that idea. As I've gotten older I've struggled to find a good thought or key for getting my weight back to my left side. I either get too aggressive with my hips & move too much laterally, my hips get out in front of my upper body or I don't move laterally enough & my weight stays on my right side. Going from left side bend to right side bend feels like it creates the perfect amount of hip movement & weight shift. Does this sound familiar? Does it sound like I'm getting the idea? Thanks again...

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#4214 Jim Waldron

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 08:11 PM

View Postjonsnow, on 27 September 2018 - 09:08 AM, said:

Jim, I've been working my way through this thread for quite some time & have found it to be very enlightening. Several (maybe many?) pages back I came across several posts about "tilt switch" & wondered if you could revisit that idea. As I've gotten older I've struggled to find a good thought or key for getting my weight back to my left side. I either get too aggressive with my hips & move too much laterally, my hips get out in front of my upper body or I don't move laterally enough & my weight stays on my right side. Going from left side bend to right side bend feels like it creates the perfect amount of hip movement & weight shift. Does this sound familiar? Does it sound like I'm getting the idea? Thanks again...

In my experience, learning how to do the Tilt Switch properly, along with the lower body lateral shift/rotate, is one of hardest golf swing moves, maybe the hardest.

You need professional instruction to get it right.

For one, if you have even slightly poor Balance, T Switch will tend to make it worse.

So other fundamentals need to already be in place to learn the Switch.

No - sounds like your issue is the usual one for 95% of my students, poor body Awareness for the move.

Moving from too little to too much of a body move is the hallmark sign of not enough Awareness.

Most golfers mistakenly believe that the "answer" to that kind of dillemma is a new swing thought, when it is really the Goldilocks answer - "not too hot, not too cold - just right".

Tilt Switch mastery does not naturally create the proper lower body shift/rotate move, they are two separate but related moves that happen mainly simultaneously.

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#4215 gatorMD

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 11:18 AM

How does this jive with AMG?   Do they have any 3D video proving or disproving this?

I love the idea and plan on getting a remote lesson.   Just toying around with this on the range seems like it could be a big time game changer as my most common fault is inside/flat/stuck flip.

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#4216 divot tool

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 07:13 PM

View Postdesignpunk, on 23 August 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 August 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Tiger is clearly doing the arm pushaway in his current swing, just not nearly as much as in 1996. The fact that you cannot see it is your problem.  He keeps his hands/arms moving in the backswing from center of his torso in the V shape up to the right side of this torso. In the third or "width" dimension. That move is the essence of what the ASI material is all about for the backswing.

So when Butch Harmon (who was Tiger's coach at the time) told me, in person, that Tiger just keeps his hands arms in place and turns his shoulders in a 1-piece move to start the takeaway - he was wrong? To be even clearer, Butch stood and demonstrated this in person in stages. First a perfect shoulder-only takeaway with absolutely no action from the arms or wrists (i.e no pushing away) he did this until the hands were just outside his right leg. Then he paused and folded his right arm a touch, another pause then pretty much turned to the top.

I remember it like it was yesterday, he specifically stated this is what his players did and had in common and stressed there was no independent action from the arms until the right arm fold at the END of the takeaway.

I am certainly not here "looking for a fight with a well known instructor" as you put it; but obviously I have Butch Harmon telling me one thing and Jim Waldron telling me something else - so it's about getting a better understanding.

This tread has a ton of interest on WRX and on other sites too, so it's going to attract some attention, and sometimes scrutiny; but that's healthy, right? At least it should be. In the world of science it's all about challenging theories - that's how they stand up.

View PostJim Waldron, on 22 August 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Your view of what I teach is obviously NOT what I teach.

Most golfers new to the ASI concept form the false perception that I teach an outside, "steep" or vertical plane. Which is obviously what you believe I am advocating.


OK, so here's my view, and my understanding... If you turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine without doing anything to your arms/hands/club you will be perfectly on-plane. This is the classic one-piece move / maintain the triangle almost all golf coaches teach (inc Butch). If you do this, you simply cannot be under or over plane because the arms will stay exactly where they were at address in relation to the shoulder/torso unit. This is easily demonstrable in 3D computer analysis or even with a really crude model below:

Posted Image

Obviously there is no arm lift here so if you add a push-away the club would obviously move outside the plane-line? So what am I missing here?



View PostJim Waldron, on 22 August 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

I am looking at the Golf Digest article right now. I cut out the three page article, which I believe is from 1997 or 1998, page 40-43.Tiger in a silver print shirt. I use that article all the time in my teaching practice.  

I would love to read this, I have a lot of Tiger articles books and clippings but nothing pre-1999. Would you be able to snap it on your phone and upload it?

1. Per the creative GIF swing illustration posted above, you would be so inside and under plane if thatís how you believe the takeaway works.  (A big no-no). The golf swing is 3-dimensional, meaning it has width, height and depth components.  

2. Itís called an illusion for a reason, because itís difficult to see from DTL.  

3.  You should really try reading this thread over again until you comprehend the ASI.  The fact that youíre contending that tiger doesnít push away because itís not apparent from DTL illustrates that you donít comprehend it fully.


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#4217 Golfjack

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 03:33 AM

Seriously, the arm swing illusion was one of the most important things for me to learn.  You can play decent golf with little body rotation if you get this part right.  It's true for most swings.  I've seen many amateurs bring it back way inside (including me) because they don't keep it pushed out (it's more a feel).
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#4218 chigolfer1

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 12:16 PM

Jim, asking you because I know you are very knowledgeable on this particular subject.  I have had a terrible "hit instinct" my entire golfing life.  Back when my swing was truly amatuerish it didn't matter because the hit instinct was essentially my swing.  What my body did was secondary, if that makes any sense.  Of course my swing looked terrible but I truly swung my swing.  After taking lessons from several good pros on here, etc. I know A LOT more about the swing and my swing (and results) are generally much better.  However, my hit impulse sneaks up on me from time to time resulting in a terrible over the top move with little lower body rotation.   I know thinking about the hips is sort of out of vogue on here these days but I have found when I really just think about my hip pivot and/or my shoulder going out to the ball, the swing sort of magically happens and I swing at the ball before even realizing what happened.   I know, this sounds weird, but given I have this really bad hit impulse, I almost have to think about not hitting the ball or swinging my arms and, instead, just moving my hips.  Believe me, when I'm successful, the swing looks great on video.

So, with that as a preface I'm not even sure what my question is exactly but what are your thoughts on me just having that one swing thought as far as the hip pivot and a swing happening "automatically."  Is this some sort of band-aid?  Do you have thoughts on what I'm experiencing and if it will ever go away or if the hit impulse will always be with me to some extent?  Also, I imagine a lot of low handicap golfers do try to "hit" the ball but they just have a natural body coordination/athleticism that some like myself lack.

Edited by chigolfer1, 18 October 2018 - 12:24 PM.


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#4219 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 06:56 PM

View Postchigolfer1, on 18 October 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

Jim, asking you because I know you are very knowledgeable on this particular subject.  I have had a terrible "hit instinct" my entire golfing life.  Back when my swing was truly amatuerish it didn't matter because the hit instinct was essentially my swing.  What my body did was secondary, if that makes any sense.  Of course my swing looked terrible but I truly swung my swing.  After taking lessons from several good pros on here, etc. I know A LOT more about the swing and my swing (and results) are generally much better.  However, my hit impulse sneaks up on me from time to time resulting in a terrible over the top move with little lower body rotation.   I know thinking about the hips is sort of out of vogue on here these days but I have found when I really just think about my hip pivot and/or my shoulder going out to the ball, the swing sort of magically happens and I swing at the ball before even realizing what happened.   I know, this sounds weird, but given I have this really bad hit impulse, I almost have to think about not hitting the ball or swinging my arms and, instead, just moving my hips.  Believe me, when I'm successful, the swing looks great on video.

So, with that as a preface I'm not even sure what my question is exactly but what are your thoughts on me just having that one swing thought as far as the hip pivot and a swing happening "automatically."  Is this some sort of band-aid?  Do you have thoughts on what I'm experiencing and if it will ever go away or if the hit impulse will always be with me to some extent?  Also, I imagine a lot of low handicap golfers do try to "hit" the ball but they just have a natural body coordination/athleticism that some like myself lack.

Hit Impulse is one of the major causes of poor ballstriking, and even affects short game and putting.

It causes early release, loss of ch speed and poor impact.

It is on the Flinch/Yips spectrum, and can indeed be overcome once and for all.

The solution is Awareness and changing focus off of the ball and impact.

Hip focus seems to be doing exactly that for you.

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#4220 chigolfer1

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Posted Yesterday, 09:19 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 18 October 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

View Postchigolfer1, on 18 October 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

Jim, asking you because I know you are very knowledgeable on this particular subject.  I have had a terrible "hit instinct" my entire golfing life.  Back when my swing was truly amatuerish it didn't matter because the hit instinct was essentially my swing.  What my body did was secondary, if that makes any sense.  Of course my swing looked terrible but I truly swung my swing.  After taking lessons from several good pros on here, etc. I know A LOT more about the swing and my swing (and results) are generally much better.  However, my hit impulse sneaks up on me from time to time resulting in a terrible over the top move with little lower body rotation.   I know thinking about the hips is sort of out of vogue on here these days but I have found when I really just think about my hip pivot and/or my shoulder going out to the ball, the swing sort of magically happens and I swing at the ball before even realizing what happened.   I know, this sounds weird, but given I have this really bad hit impulse, I almost have to think about not hitting the ball or swinging my arms and, instead, just moving my hips.  Believe me, when I'm successful, the swing looks great on video.

So, with that as a preface I'm not even sure what my question is exactly but what are your thoughts on me just having that one swing thought as far as the hip pivot and a swing happening "automatically."  Is this some sort of band-aid?  Do you have thoughts on what I'm experiencing and if it will ever go away or if the hit impulse will always be with me to some extent?  Also, I imagine a lot of low handicap golfers do try to "hit" the ball but they just have a natural body coordination/athleticism that some like myself lack.

Hit Impulse is one of the major causes of poor ballstriking, and even affects short game and putting.

It causes early release, loss of ch speed and poor impact.

It is on the Flinch/Yips spectrum, and can indeed be overcome once and for all.

The solution is Awareness and changing focus off of the ball and impact.

Hip focus seems to be doing exactly that for you.

Thanks Jim.  Good to know I'm approaching this correctly.


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