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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#4141 WILDTHING

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 05:41 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 11 June 2018 - 10:37 AM, said:

No on your last question.

First question, some of the 3D systems miss the asi, certainly. At least the really important part of zero independent upper arm motion (across mid-line laterally - not upper arm rotation) in the shoulder sockets during Release until just after impact.  I discussed this issue in depth in my Module Five Part B video on the Release. This is the most counter-intuitive aspect of the golf swing, imo. 3D systems will no doubt evolve and improve.  Hogan understood this and told it to Weiskopf, who shared it with me at the 1977 PGA championship at Pebble.  "Super-Connection" is the term for this.

Ryke effect is nothing new - just an old concept re-packaged.

Yes - there is forearm roll in the Release, counter-clockwise. What I call the "small circle" inside the "big circle" of the Pivot.

As long as the arm roll happens with at least some wrist c0ck, it has an effect on clubhead path and angle of attack, ie moves path leftwards and steepens the angle of attack.  Once the wrist c0ck is done, then no more effect on path and angle of attack.

Many thanks for the reply Jim


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#4142 Travis Duckro

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:33 AM

Jim,

Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn?  Sorry for the basic question.

Thanks,
Travis

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#4143 Jim Waldron

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:43 AM

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Jim,

Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn?  Sorry for the basic question.

Thanks,
Travis

Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have  some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.

Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.

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#4144 Travis Duckro

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:18 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 June 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Jim,

Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn?  Sorry for the basic question.

Thanks,
Travis

Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have  some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.

Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.

Thank you so much.  Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action?  That's how I am understanding this.  In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.

BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.

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#4145 Jim Waldron

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:27 PM

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 June 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Jim,

Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn?  Sorry for the basic question.

Thanks,
Travis

Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have  some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.

Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.

Thank you so much.  Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action?  That's how I am understanding this.  In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.

BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.

Not "shoulders" the way most folks understand that word. Core is your belly, both front and side abs, and lower back, including glutes. Torso and chest and shoulder girdle are kind of synonymous in golf instruction. Core starts first - in any athletic motion - then torso, then hips. Core and Torso basically pull the hips around if you are reasonably fit and younger than age 60 or so. As you get older you will need to actively engage the hips to get them  to rotate.

Belly button rotating/shifting is the core first move, then torso/s girdle picks up the beat, then hips are pulled around from momentum of the core and torso rotation.

BUT - it is not just rotation. There is also left side bend and moving from hip flexion into extension to some degree - a little on a  driver and a lot on an L wedge.

Not ball of left on Transition, it is already there at the Top. More into middle of left foot toe to heel, then left heel as downswing gets closer to impact.


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#4146 Travis Duckro

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:22 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 June 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 June 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Jim,

Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn?  Sorry for the basic question.

Thanks,
Travis

Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have  some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.

Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.

Thank you so much.  Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action?  That's how I am understanding this.  In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.

BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.

Not "shoulders" the way most folks understand that word. Core is your belly, both front and side abs, and lower back, including glutes. Torso and chest and shoulder girdle are kind of synonymous in golf instruction. Core starts first - in any athletic motion - then torso, then hips. Core and Torso basically pull the hips around if you are reasonably fit and younger than age 60 or so. As you get older you will need to actively engage the hips to get them  to rotate.

Belly button rotating/shifting is the core first move, then torso/s girdle picks up the beat, then hips are pulled around from momentum of the core and torso rotation.

BUT - it is not just rotation. There is also left side bend and moving from hip flexion into extension to some degree - a little on a  driver and a lot on an L wedge.

Not ball of left on Transition, it is already there at the Top. More into middle of left foot toe to heel, then left heel as downswing gets closer to impact.

This is immensely helpful, the swing thought I have as I transition to the down swing is to "bump" down into the left ball of foot, linearly moving down the targets line into impact.  By going into the middle and finishing on the left heel I'm guessing its promoting more of a rotational movement.

Is getting the weight to the back right heel a bad swing thought in the upswing?  I'm of the opinion that the Balance video you released will be good for me, will be purchasing.

Edited by Travis Duckro, 13 June 2018 - 03:28 PM.


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#4147 Jim Waldron

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:20 PM

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 June 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 13 June 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostTravis Duckro, on 13 June 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Jim,

Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn?  Sorry for the basic question.

Thanks,
Travis

Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have  some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.

Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.

Thank you so much.  Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action?  That's how I am understanding this.  In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.

BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.

Not "shoulders" the way most folks understand that word. Core is your belly, both front and side abs, and lower back, including glutes. Torso and chest and shoulder girdle are kind of synonymous in golf instruction. Core starts first - in any athletic motion - then torso, then hips. Core and Torso basically pull the hips around if you are reasonably fit and younger than age 60 or so. As you get older you will need to actively engage the hips to get them  to rotate.

Belly button rotating/shifting is the core first move, then torso/s girdle picks up the beat, then hips are pulled around from momentum of the core and torso rotation.

BUT - it is not just rotation. There is also left side bend and moving from hip flexion into extension to some degree - a little on a  driver and a lot on an L wedge.

Not ball of left on Transition, it is already there at the Top. More into middle of left foot toe to heel, then left heel as downswing gets closer to impact.

This is immensely helpful, the swing thought I have as I transition to the down swing is to "bump" down into the left ball of foot, linearly moving down the targets line into impact.  By going into the middle and finishing on the left heel I'm guessing its promoting more of a rotational movement.

Is getting the weight to the back right heel a bad swing thought in the upswing?  I'm of the opinion that the Balance video you released will be good for me, will be purchasing.

In the ideal model swing, the pressure does indeed go to the right heel, ie a "rotational weight shift" as opposed to a lateral sway kind of weight shift, which causes loss of Balance. Feels very coiled up in right hip, leg, knee and foot.

Yes on your first insight. Hip girdle laterally shift straight "west" towards target and NOT "northwest" which can lead to early extension and loss of posture. Later stage of Transition it shifts to the "southwest" or left heel.

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#4148 RobDMB

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:55 PM

Interested in learning more about this - trying it.  Best to start with the book or a certain video?
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#4149 Jim Waldron

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 09:42 PM

View PostRobDMB, on 19 June 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

Interested in learning more about this - trying it.  Best to start with the book or a certain video?

If you are mainly interested in the ASI concept and drills, then buy the video, Module Two on the ASI.

E-book covers every single fundamental of the modern golf swing, plus a ton of info on how to learn and practice effectively.

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#4150 FourTops

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Posted Yesterday, 10:37 PM

View PostKiwi2, on 25 April 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

View Postjuststeve, on 25 April 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Kiwi2:

You wrote:

If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the
target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist
high.

Is that what you meant to say?

Steve

Yes.

The pivot action is being disregarded here. The explanation relates to the arms independently. It is the only way I am aware of that the illusion can be explained. That is to isolate the arm movement.

Jim prefers  the term move away rather than takeaway. In his model  there is no independent arm action in the first part of this movement.  The term move away implies a body motion. The belly is used to initiate the backswing after a rebound from what he calls the bump. The arms don’t come into it yet. There is no pushing away of the arms at that stage. The arms will move however as a result of connection of the left arm. The independent arm motion kicks in when the hands reach the right hand side of the right leg .

The explanation was not describing the takeaway or backswing.

I think I agree...these things can be hard to explain in a paragraph.  The takeaway is coordinated with the torso and arms?  If that's what he's saying I agree.  This would retard an arm-only back swing and promote weight xfer to the inside of the right foot.


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