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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#4111 Walter Sobchak

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 12:32 PM

Thanks for the reply Jim.


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#4112 tgreenwood11

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 02:55 PM

I have always has tendency to bring the club back inside too quickly and one of things I've discovered to prevent this as I read Jim's information is that if I push down on the handle while blending the turn into the swing, this prevents any bad inside take away.  I'd be interested in feedback.

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#4113 Jim Waldron

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:18 PM

View Posttgreenwood11, on 27 March 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

I have always has tendency to bring the club back inside too quickly and one of things I've discovered to prevent this as I read Jim's information is that if I push down on the handle while blending the turn into the swing, this prevents any bad inside take away.  I'd be interested in feedback.

"Pushing down on the handle" is just one way of describing how one c0cks their wrists. Clubshaft moves upwards in the vertical dimension during takeaway swing segment due to that motion. It is often described as one way to cure the death move of too inside the plane. But that inside move is mainly caused by improper use of the arms - NOT failure to c0ck the wrists properly in vast majority of golfers. The issue is the in/out dimension relative to the target line and to the shaft plane angle itself. Wrists play a role in the takeaway that I teach, in that I like to see near immediate start of the c0cking process at beginning of takeaway, and the c0cking 50% done by end of takeaway.  

You are blending the in with the up by all three systems: upper arms pushing away, pivot of the body and wrist c0cking/hinging.

Folks who use their arms to create the "in" instead of their Pivot have the ASI problem.

Do not pull your arms in closer to your body - do the opposite. Push them away from your chest as your chest turns, 4-8" by end of takeaway.

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#4114 ironcat

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 03:32 AM

I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso  and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

https://youtu.be/kKHCGNT-hPw?t=38s

Edited by ironcat, 11 May 2018 - 03:46 AM.


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#4115 Jim Waldron

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:46 AM

View Postironcat, on 11 May 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso  and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

https://youtu.be/kKHCGNT-hPw?t=38s

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no  - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane.  It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel  is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.


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#4116 Tanner25

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 09:46 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 11 May 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

View Postironcat, on 11 May 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso  and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

https://youtu.be/kKHCGNT-hPw?t=38s

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no  - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane.  It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel  is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 12 May 2018 - 09:47 AM.


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#4117 Jim Waldron

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 10:55 AM

View PostTanner25, on 12 May 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 11 May 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

View Postironcat, on 11 May 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso  and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

https://youtu.be/kKHCGNT-hPw?t=38s

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no  - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane.  It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel  is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

Forward swing main thing is understanding how the Pivot moves the Triangle, both arms as "one firm unit" (Hogan's words). Instead of the arms moving themselves.

Dependent arm motion means muscles of the Pivot create a force that moves the arms with very little independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets. And that slight independent arm motion in the sockets happens from Pivot momentum -NOT from the upper arm muscles.

It allows perfect synch up of arm motion and Pivot motion.

"Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow moving arms" which is a common mis-understanding of the term on this forum.

It ONLY means preventing too much upper arm in shoulder sockets motion due to arm muscles activating that motion.

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#4118 Tanner25

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 03:45 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 May 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 12 May 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 11 May 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

View Postironcat, on 11 May 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso  and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

https://youtu.be/kKHCGNT-hPw?t=38s

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no  - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane.  It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel  is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

Forward swing main thing is understanding how the Pivot moves the Triangle, both arms as "one firm unit" (Hogan's words). Instead of the arms moving themselves.

Dependent arm motion means muscles of the Pivot create a force that moves the arms with very little independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets. And that slight independent arm motion in the sockets happens from Pivot momentum -NOT from the upper arm muscles.

It allows perfect synch up of arm motion and Pivot motion.

"Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow moving arms" which is a common mis-understanding of the term on this forum.

It ONLY means preventing too much upper arm in shoulder sockets motion due to arm muscles activating that motion.

Thanks, Jim. Now it is coming together. But, I guess it takes some time for those who have been motoring their swing with their arms for many years to adapt the ASI. It's hard to isolate the chest/core pivot to help the backswing, when the first instinct is to pick the club up with the hands/arms. Also, it's difficult to get the arms to be passive in the through swing. I suspect it take an understanding of the concept, practice and then trust to make it work. Thx, Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 12 May 2018 - 03:48 PM.


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#4119 Jim Waldron

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 11:52 AM

View PostTanner25, on 12 May 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 May 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 12 May 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 11 May 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

View Postironcat, on 11 May 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

I struggle with an inside takeaway, and the ASI gets me into a nicer position, especially at P2.

However, I've always believed this is due to me sucking my arms in subconsciously - because if I do a slow 1 piece takeaway in front of a mirror (with no pushaway) and allow my arms to go along up the inclined plane with my shoulder turn, I get in the same good position. AKA the classic 1 piece move.

Likewise, if you do the Nick Faldo drill and pre set the wrists you get in the perfect p2 position, then simply turn your torso  and you're in a solid top position with the club in front of you. There is demonstrably no pushaway on that.

So I am left wondering if the ASI move is fix for a fault and simply working as a counter-move for players who have over-active arms and can't just allow them to be passive in the first few feet of the takeaway, or players with a shoulder turn that is too flat, or am I missing a key ingredient?

Would be keen to hear Jim's thoughts.

https://youtu.be/kKHCGNT-hPw?t=38s

This is one of those really good questions that will never be answered in a golf forum using the written word. It requires in person demonstration to really get it.

What you are asking is one of the first "tests" that I experimented with back in 1996 when I discovered the asi. The answer is no  - if you do not do any amount of arm pushaway, your shaft angle will not be on plane in the takeaway, (assuming you do a proper Pivot action). You will still be inside (although not terrible) and you will be too narrow at the Top - lacking in width. Width is a passive source of ch speed in the golf swing. So the slight pushaway allows you to achieve that width, and allows the shaft to track back on plane.  It also makes it easier to employ a good structured Triangle.

Most folks when first playing around with the asi stuff way overdo the arm pushaway. 6" ot total hand path travel  is ideal for most in the takeaway, and really only about 4" of that is from independent arm motion, so a very slight motion during takeaway. The other 2" is from Pivot momentum.

The pushaway also contributes to a good Top position, especially in that it prevents using the trail arm bicep to bend the trail arm, which can prevent arm over-run and a collapsed Triangle.

Being "neutral" ie no pushaway and also no arms pulling in, might work okay in theory - but having tested it early on, I found that almost no one who tried it could in fact pull it off. The impulse to pull in with the arms was way too strong for everyone.

But Ironcat - if you can do it, and are hitting the ball really great with that neutral arms action, then I encourage you to keep on doing it.

As I said before, if you really want to go in depth with me about the ASI,. then take a remote lesson with me, like a lot of folks have done. In about 90 minutes time, I will be able to answer most if not all of your asi questions. Or buy the video, it's 2.5 hours of intensive demonstration and explanation of all you need to know about the ASI.

Using the push away to add width and some push away - not a lot, seem helpful to get the ASI on the backswing. What are some simple thoughts on the through swing ? Thanks, Tanner

Forward swing main thing is understanding how the Pivot moves the Triangle, both arms as "one firm unit" (Hogan's words). Instead of the arms moving themselves.

Dependent arm motion means muscles of the Pivot create a force that moves the arms with very little independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets. And that slight independent arm motion in the sockets happens from Pivot momentum -NOT from the upper arm muscles.

It allows perfect synch up of arm motion and Pivot motion.

"Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow moving arms" which is a common mis-understanding of the term on this forum.

It ONLY means preventing too much upper arm in shoulder sockets motion due to arm muscles activating that motion.

Thanks, Jim. Now it is coming together. But, I guess it takes some time for those who have been motoring their swing with their arms for many years to adapt the ASI. It's hard to isolate the chest/core pivot to help the backswing, when the first instinct is to pick the club up with the hands/arms. Also, it's difficult to get the arms to be passive in the through swing. I suspect it take an understanding of the concept, practice and then trust to make it work. Thx, Tanner

Yes - good insight there. It does take some time to tame the arm impulse. The tiny golf ball, the 35"-46" long "sticks" that we use to hit that tiny ball, and the tiny sweetspot on the clubface, about the size of a dime or even smaller. All those things contribute to a "natural" impulse to use your arms to both steer the clubhead into the ball and to create power.

Part of this struggle is that when I work with a new student and he or she is finally getting their arms more passive and their Pivot more active, it feels to their mind like this new swing is totally lacking in power. Of course the exact opposite is the truth. A pivot dominant swing, is far more powerful than the typical arm dominant high handicap swing.

And the second part is this - when you start to achieve a better pivot, and you use the pivot to deliver the clubhead to the ball (obviously wrists and forearms also play a role, but it is mainly the pivot) it feels impossible in the mind of the golfer that a fast turning/tilting of their torso  can get the sweetspot of the clubface onto the back of the ball solidly, and with all the impact requirements like an on plane shaft, proper low point and angle of attack, square clubface and neutral path. Even intellectually it seems crazy that a proper pivot motion is the main thing that delivers the clubhead to impact.

I have seen many of my students doing 1/4 or 1/2 speed drills - where they do have a little  bit of conscious control over their body motion - totally stop their pivot just before impact, and fling their arms across mid-line of their chest, in an attempt to steer the clubhead into the ball using their arm muscles to move their arms.

So overcoming those two "natural" but flat our wrong  beliefs is a big part of the learning Process.

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#4120 cmckelvmi

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:25 PM

I am way late into this thread and only got to about page 13 before I was a believer and decided to order the E-book. I really felt like I could see through the Arm Swing Illusion while watching the big guys on television. However, I cannot seem to be able to put the process into practical application. I hit the ball straight but I lose tons of distance, I'm talking 30-40 yards. I regard myself as a decent athlete that was good enough to play division 1 college baseball.

I apologize if this has already been answered, but I have only made it to page 20 before posting a comment. Is there anyone on the Eastern Time Zone that teaches Mr. Waldron's philosophy? I don't have the opportunity to travel to Oregon or Hawaii to attend a school or lessons.


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#4121 Jim Waldron

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:41 PM

View Postcmckelvmi, on 15 May 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

I am way late into this thread and only got to about page 13 before I was a believer and decided to order the E-book. I really felt like I could see through the Arm Swing Illusion while watching the big guys on television. However, I cannot seem to be able to put the process into practical application. I hit the ball straight but I lose tons of distance, I'm talking 30-40 yards. I regard myself as a decent athlete that was good enough to play division 1 college baseball.

I apologize if this has already been answered, but I have only made it to page 20 before posting a comment. Is there anyone on the Eastern Time Zone that teaches Mr. Waldron's philosophy? I don't have the opportunity to travel to Oregon or Hawaii to attend a school or lessons.

Sorry, I do not certify any  instructors in my methods.

"Practical application" requires a lesson. Your last sentence is why I offer - and have since 2005 - real time online lessons via Skype. They work really well for making swing changes. Thinking about the ASI or any other technical swing concept while swinging at full swing speeds and striking a ball is a recipe for disaster. You do the work on how the arms and pivot work in the golf swing, away from a golf ball in slow motion speed in the early and mid stages of training. Then graduate to half speed without a ball, and eventually to make it more "golf-like" you take it to a ball at half speed. The goal of any swing change is to achieve the new movement pattern you are trying to ingrain to the level of dominant habit. So you are free to go "play" golf with a free mind, and confidence in your ability to produce an effective swing motion.

And part of the learning/training Process is using objective feedback so you can know with 100% certainty what your body and club are actually doing.

Most golfers seldom - if ever - use objective feedback like video or a mirror, and instead rely on their "mental intention" to do the swing change, in your case, the ASI stuff.  Mentally intending to do a new body pattern and actually objectively doing that body pattern are not the same thing. Very easy to mentally intend and for your body to do something totally different. In fact, that is the norm among most golfers who start out with a swing change.

And finally, nothing about the ASI concept - for both back and forward swings - if actually implemented by your body properly, could cause any loss of distance. Quite the opposite - creates space to Release into, and a strong Pivot, will both contribute to more clubhead speed.

Over 90% of my students who start to actually "get" the ASI stuff into their body motion see a significant increase in distance.

11

#4122 Celeras

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 02:43 AM

This thread definitely doesn't need any more feedback, but I thought I'd share mine anyway. Thus far I have only watched the ASI video. I am a new player (<1 year) and habitual "over the top'er". I have tried this and that without much success so far, and most drills feel like I'm forcing something unnatural that I could never reproduce in an actual swing. I finally stumbled across this thread and gave it a go. For some reason it just clicked with me, and I finally got the "feel" everybody seems to talk about when something works. I quickly strapped on the Zepp and took a bunch of practice swings, really trying to focus on "pushing away". Here is the Zepp data compared to my most recent range session (not the most scientific data I know, but I think it still has value for general numbers especially at my level).

Screenshot_20180517-022719.png Screenshot_20180517-024722.png

I've never seen an under plane number in my short golf life, so to average that over 40 swings was big for me. I will say that it definitely doesn't seem like I am "pushing away" at the 45 degrees like Jim says.. probably closer to 60-70 if i had to guess. But maybe I am just rotating too quickly or something and my feel is off.

Regardless, I can't wait to take this outside and see where it goes hitting some balls. So excited! Will have to use the downtime from this horrible weather to check out Jim's other videos.

P.S. I'd post the videos associated with the Zepp numbers, however it is 3AM and this was done in my kitchen with pajamas on #addict :golfer: :cheesy:
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Callaway Rogue Sub Zero 15* PX Even Flow Blue 75 6.0
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Ping G400 5-UW AWT 2.0 Stiff, Green Dot
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#4123 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 10:34 AM

View PostCeleras, on 17 May 2018 - 02:43 AM, said:

This thread definitely doesn't need any more feedback, but I thought I'd share mine anyway. Thus far I have only watched the ASI video. I am a new player (<1 year) and habitual "over the top'er". I have tried this and that without much success so far, and most drills feel like I'm forcing something unnatural that I could never reproduce in an actual swing. I finally stumbled across this thread and gave it a go. For some reason it just clicked with me, and I finally got the "feel" everybody seems to talk about when something works. I quickly strapped on the Zepp and took a bunch of practice swings, really trying to focus on "pushing away". Here is the Zepp data compared to my most recent range session (not the most scientific data I know, but I think it still has value for general numbers especially at my level).

Attachment Screenshot_20180517-022719.pngAttachment Screenshot_20180517-024722.png

I've never seen an under plane number in my short golf life, so to average that over 40 swings was big for me. I will say that it definitely doesn't seem like I am "pushing away" at the 45 degrees like Jim says.. probably closer to 60-70 if i had to guess. But maybe I am just rotating too quickly or something and my feel is off.

Regardless, I can't wait to take this outside and see where it goes hitting some balls. So excited! Will have to use the downtime from this horrible weather to check out Jim's other videos.

P.S. I'd post the videos associated with the Zepp numbers, however it is 3AM and this was done in my kitchen with pajamas on #addict :golfer: :cheesy:

Thank you for your feedback!

Always great to hear that the ASI concept has helped another golfer to breakthrough to better ballstriking.

Sounds like you have been able to keep the club more in front of your during the backswing, which makes it much less likely to do OTT on Transition, since one of main causes of OTT is the arms moving out in front from their "stuck" behind the body position.

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#4124 Jim Waldron

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 02:48 PM

It's been quite a while since I posted anything about how interested students can work with me on the ASI concept, as well as many other fundamentals of both the golf swing, and short game, putting and mental game, so here is an update on my instruction offerings.

In person hands on instruction is available in two formats: Private Custom Golf Schools with myself and the student, or the student and the student's golf buddy, spouse or family member. Most of these schools are just myself and one student but we do offer the option of adding a second, third or fourth person, obviously all friends or family.

Half Day Schools are 4 hours total instruction time, Full Day are 7 hours/45 minutes total instruction time, with a 45 minute lunch break mid-day. I use my Total Immersion golf skills learning protocol for these programs, which means the main goal of the instruction is to lay the foundations for new body movement patterns into your subconscious mind or long term motor memory, meaning getting the student started on the road to forming new and more effective body and club motion to the level of dominant habits. Multi-Day schools are the most popular option for folks flying in to Portland, Oregon in the summer months, or to Hawaii in the winter months, or Palm Springs from mid-March to mid-April.  Two or Three Day schools are the most commonly used options for those students.

Half Day and One Day options are quite often chosen by folks who are within reasonable driving distance of Portland. I get a lot of students making the three hour drive down from Seattle, for example, or from Spokane, Boise and Vancouver, Canada.

I also do private lessons, which range in time from a minimum of 45 minutes, up to two hours. Those are geared more toward folks living in the Portland Metro area, for obvious reasons, in the summer months, and for both locals and tourists in Hawaii and Palm Springs.

Locations: my main teaching location in the summer months is Quail Valley Golf Course 20 minutes west of Portland, I am starting my 24th season there on Monday. Hawaii in the winter months is at Ko Olina Golf Club on Oahu and I also will occasionally give lessons at the Kahuku Golf Course on the North Shore.  I am returning to Palm Springs for the first time in the last 4 years, mid-March to mid-April of 2019.   Dublin, Ireland was a location for our golf schools one year ago, and we are planning a return there for late September of 2019.

Online "remote" lessons: For those who simply cannot make it out to work with me in person, we offer online real-time instruction via Skype webcam. These lessons work really well, almost as well as in person for probably 75% of the golf skills and swing flaw corrections that I encounter with a new student. I have been doing these webcam lessons since 2004, and have got it down to a format that is very effective. The way it works is this: student tapes his swing or stroke as per my directions, sends me the video for me to study, then we meet for the actual lesson by appointment, which normally will be about 75 minutes for the first lesson, and subsequent lessons 45-60 minutes. One reason this format works so well is this: all of my students looking to change their moving body part mechanics in the their golf swing will do the early stages of swing change training away from  a golf ball, in slow motion in front of a mirror.

Which does not mean you don't still have to do range practice hitting balls - of course you do that kind of practice too.  Balance, Tempo, rhythm, Release type and timing, grip pressure, and in the later stages after you put some time in front of the mirror, you will do some "blending" practice hitting balls, ie getting that one swing change you did in the mirror blended into your whole swing motion.

Normally the first few webcam sessions are done indoors, where you can stand and make slow swings with a club, where I can see you make the motion. Or some students have an indoor studio, and will be able to make normal speed swings into a net or simulator. Later sessions that will cover some of those things I listed for range practice, can indeed be done on the range, as long as your smartphone has a good enough signal. I can actually see you swing in real time, and you tell me the ball flight results, and we go from there - just like a real lesson.

And the Remote Lessons are billed at a much lower rate than our in person rate - so you save some bucks with that option.

Yips: I also offer both in person and online instruction to cure the Yips, which is becoming increasingly a larger portion of my teaching practice. In person works best for curing severe yips, usually one day minimum, and a lot of my yip students will opt for the day and a half or two day option, if they are flying in to Portland or Oahu to work with me. Online Yips program has a very good track record in curing the Yips for folks who have mild to moderate intensity yips.

Videos: We are just about to release our last video in my "Great Shot!: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" video instruction series, 13 videos totalling 28 hours of viewing time, and geared toward the golfer who is passionate about mastering a high level of ballstriking skills.  Available here:  http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos

The next group of videos are dedicated to my mental game instruction, and first video target date for release is September 1 of this year. Looks like we will end up with four videos of about 2 to 2.5 hours duration each. Topics include: basic peak performance Psychology  concepts, Awareness exercises, mental focus training, pre-shot routine, how to flinch-proof your swing or stroke, playing strategies, mental toughness, facing fear and replacing fear with confidence, techniques for controlling your mental and emotional state, and a primer on the yips.

Short Game videos are in production this summer, and first release will likely be November or December this year.

Putting videos will be completed next summer.

E-books: we offer the updated training manual from our award-winning "Great Shot!" golf school devoted to golf swing fundamentals and achieving better ballstriking, 210 pages, mainly text with a few photos and diagrams, available here: http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books

I am currently working on two books devoted to the mental game which will be e-books on sale on our website by early in 2019.

And in the pipeline is a long book devoted to my Short Game instruction, and one devoted to my Putting instruction. Likely early 2020 for short game, 2021 for putting.

Please contact me here by PM, or by email/phone listed on our website at:  http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php, if you wish to register for a golf school, remote lesson, in person lesson or yips cure program.

Thanks!

Jim

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#4125 Chowdah86

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 07:58 AM

The golf swing is a rotation around your spine, like a wheel around a spoke.  It has to be.  Understanding that will allow you to understand that you rotate the club back, you dont swing it behind you w your arms.  

That said, There is a major issue with humans swinging a golf club (#2 gets to the issue):

1) Lets get one thing straight.  When set on the ground as it is designed to be, The golf club is pointed at your belt (roughly).  Thats where the swing occurs, rotating around your belt on the shaft plane established at address.  Thats where the club wants to swing. Thats the slot, the go zone.  Thats why we hold the grip closer to 90* across our fingers and flatten the shaft behind us, all to help return to that shaft plane established at address.  Thats how we resole the club correctly. Its where it was designed to swing.    Try swining club freely down low on that shaft plane, rotating around you.  It rolls and hinges itself automatically down there.  It feels great.  You will hear and feel crisp contact (but not very much speed, so we must deviate from it to build speed).

2). The problem with the golf swing is that our arms are attached to our shoulders, not our hips, where the shaft plane is.  

      - So what happens: we rotate the swing to the top where our shoulders are.  Then swing straight down from up there.  The result is Over the top.  
      - Therefore, we need to make some sort of move to get that club back down on the shaft plane. Thats what all this shallowing business is about.  Bumping hips, knees, pausing, posting, dropping elbows to side, feeling it lay off, pulling the chain etc.  Jims version of this is layingbthe shaft off and feelibg the club move back down that V in front of you. That whimsicle shape that unlocks everything.  

Jims ideas are good, but pretty basic.   The swing is a rotation around your spine.  You shouldnt sweep your arms side to side like sweeping the floor.  That and you’ll have to swing up and then back down, keeping it in front of your chest.  This tends to follow a V shape, yea.  

The pivot and V visuals are good, but we can get through this idea in one sentence and move on.  Just understand that the objective is to return the club to the position is was at at address.  Part and parcel to that, is returning to the address plane, where the club was designed to swing (yes, rotating around your spine, and yes, rotating in front of your chest, not swiping side to side).  

I just hope I get the chance to play a skins match against the guy that watches all these videos and thinks about pushing his club up a V in front of him in the takeaway on every tee box.

Edited by Chowdah86, 20 May 2018 - 08:33 AM.


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#4126 Jasonic

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 08:10 PM

View PostChowdah86, on 20 May 2018 - 07:58 AM, said:

The golf swing is a rotation around your spine, like a wheel around a spoke.  It has to be.  Understanding that will allow you to understand that you rotate the club back, you dont swing it behind you w your arms.  

That said, There is a major issue with humans swinging a golf club (#2 gets to the issue):

1) Lets get one thing straight.  When set on the ground as it is designed to be, The golf club is pointed at your belt (roughly).  Thats where the swing occurs, rotating around your belt on the shaft plane established at address.  Thats where the club wants to swing. Thats the slot, the go zone.  Thats why we hold the grip closer to 90* across our fingers and flatten the shaft behind us, all to help return to that shaft plane established at address.  Thats how we resole the club correctly. Its where it was designed to swing.    Try swining club freely down low on that shaft plane, rotating around you.  It rolls and hinges itself automatically down there.  It feels great.  You will hear and feel crisp contact (but not very much speed, so we must deviate from it to build speed).

2). The problem with the golf swing is that our arms are attached to our shoulders, not our hips, where the shaft plane is.  

      - So what happens: we rotate the swing to the top where our shoulders are.  Then swing straight down from up there.  The result is Over the top.  
      - Therefore, we need to make some sort of move to get that club back down on the shaft plane. Thats what all this shallowing business is about.  Bumping hips, knees, pausing, posting, dropping elbows to side, feeling it lay off, pulling the chain etc.  Jims version of this is layingbthe shaft off and feelibg the club move back down that V in front of you. That whimsicle shape that unlocks everything.  

Jims ideas are good, but pretty basic.   The swing is a rotation around your spine.  You shouldnt sweep your arms side to side like sweeping the floor.  That and you’ll have to swing up and then back down, keeping it in front of your chest.  This tends to follow a V shape, yea.  

The pivot and V visuals are good, but we can get through this idea in one sentence and move on.  Just understand that the objective is to return the club to the position is was at at address.  Part and parcel to that, is returning to the address plane, where the club was designed to swing (yes, rotating around your spine, and yes, rotating in front of your chest, not swiping side to side).  

I just hope I get the chance to play a skins match against the guy that watches all these videos and thinks about pushing his club up a V in front of him in the takeaway on every tee box.

Except the goal is definitely not to get the club back to where it was at address. This is swing basic 101
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#4127 oikos1

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 10:37 PM

Potential for a legit discussion developing.

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#4128 Chowdah86

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 08:03 AM

View PostJasonic, on 20 May 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

View PostChowdah86, on 20 May 2018 - 07:58 AM, said:

The golf swing is a rotation around your spine, like a wheel around a spoke.  It has to be.  Understanding that will allow you to understand that you rotate the club back, you dont swing it behind you w your arms.  

That said, There is a major issue with humans swinging a golf club (#2 gets to the issue):

1) Lets get one thing straight.  When set on the ground as it is designed to be, The golf club is pointed at your belt (roughly).  Thats where the swing occurs, rotating around your belt on the shaft plane established at address.  Thats where the club wants to swing. Thats the slot, the go zone.  Thats why we hold the grip closer to 90* across our fingers and flatten the shaft behind us, all to help return to that shaft plane established at address.  Thats how we resole the club correctly. Its where it was designed to swing. Try swining club freely down low on that shaft plane, rotating around you.  It rolls and hinges itself automatically down there.  It feels great.  You will hear and feel crisp contact (but not very much speed, so we must deviate from it to build speed).

2). The problem with the golf swing is that our arms are attached to our shoulders, not our hips, where the shaft plane is.  

  - So what happens: we rotate the swing to the top where our shoulders are.  Then swing straight down from up there.  The result is Over the top.  
  - Therefore, we need to make some sort of move to get that club back down on the shaft plane. Thats what all this shallowing business is about.  Bumping hips, knees, pausing, posting, dropping elbows to side, feeling it lay off, pulling the chain etc.  Jims version of this is layingbthe shaft off and feelibg the club move back down that V in front of you. That whimsicle shape that unlocks everything.  

Jims ideas are good, but pretty basic.   The swing is a rotation around your spine.  You shouldnt sweep your arms side to side like sweeping the floor.  That and you'll have to swing up and then back down, keeping it in front of your chest.  This tends to follow a V shape, yea.  

The pivot and V visuals are good, but we can get through this idea in one sentence and move on.  Just understand that the objective is to return the club to the position is was at at address.  Part and parcel to that, is returning to the address plane, where the club was designed to swing (yes, rotating around your spine, and yes, rotating in front of your chest, not swiping side to side).  

I just hope I get the chance to play a skins match against the guy that watches all these videos and thinks about pushing his club up a V in front of him in the takeaway on every tee box.

Except the goal is definitely not to get the club back to where it was at address. This is swing basic 101


Not sure what you mean.  Ask yourself what happens when you dont return it to its address position (or anywhere close to it).   What happens, if instead, you make contact with the ball with the grip higher in the air, the toe digging in the ground and the face wide open.    

Just trying to help here.  I dont want to get anyone riled up.

Edited by Chowdah86, 21 May 2018 - 08:06 AM.


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#4129 Jasonic

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 09:14 AM

View PostChowdah86, on 21 May 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 20 May 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

View PostChowdah86, on 20 May 2018 - 07:58 AM, said:

The golf swing is a rotation around your spine, like a wheel around a spoke.  It has to be.  Understanding that will allow you to understand that you rotate the club back, you dont swing it behind you w your arms.  

That said, There is a major issue with humans swinging a golf club (#2 gets to the issue):

1) Lets get one thing straight.  When set on the ground as it is designed to be, The golf club is pointed at your belt (roughly).  Thats where the swing occurs, rotating around your belt on the shaft plane established at address.  Thats where the club wants to swing. Thats the slot, the go zone.  Thats why we hold the grip closer to 90* across our fingers and flatten the shaft behind us, all to help return to that shaft plane established at address.  Thats how we resole the club correctly. Its where it was designed to swing.    Try swining club freely down low on that shaft plane, rotating around you.  It rolls and hinges itself automatically down there.  It feels great.  You will hear and feel crisp contact (but not very much speed, so we must deviate from it to build speed).

2). The problem with the golf swing is that our arms are attached to our shoulders, not our hips, where the shaft plane is.  

      - So what happens: we rotate the swing to the top where our shoulders are.  Then swing straight down from up there.  The result is Over the top.  
      - Therefore, we need to make some sort of move to get that club back down on the shaft plane. Thats what all this shallowing business is about.  Bumping hips, knees, pausing, posting, dropping elbows to side, feeling it lay off, pulling the chain etc.  Jims version of this is layingbthe shaft off and feelibg the club move back down that V in front of you. That whimsicle shape that unlocks everything.  

Jims ideas are good, but pretty basic.   The swing is a rotation around your spine.  You shouldnt sweep your arms side to side like sweeping the floor.  That and you'll have to swing up and then back down, keeping it in front of your chest.  This tends to follow a V shape, yea.  

The pivot and V visuals are good, but we can get through this idea in one sentence and move on.  Just understand that the objective is to return the club to the position is was at at address.  Part and parcel to that, is returning to the address plane, where the club was designed to swing (yes, rotating around your spine, and yes, rotating in front of your chest, not swiping side to side).  

I just hope I get the chance to play a skins match against the guy that watches all these videos and thinks about pushing his club up a V in front of him in the takeaway on every tee box.

Except the goal is definitely not to get the club back to where it was at address. This is swing basic 101


Not sure what you mean.  Ask yourself what happens when you dont return it to its address position (or anywhere close to it).   What happens, if instead, you make contact with the ball with the grip higher in the air, the toe digging in the ground and the face wide open.    

Just trying to help here.  I dont want to get anyone riled up.

Commenting on a thread dedicated to a well respected teacher giving free advice about how his theories he has formulated over many years are “basic” isn’t meant to rile anyone up. Yea ok lol

So when you play golf the club doesn’t arrive at the ball with shaft lean? Or do you address the ball with shaft lean?

Edited by Jasonic, 21 May 2018 - 09:15 AM.

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#4130 Chowdah86

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 10:17 AM

Hey its a golf forum, with a 100 pages of discussion around one concept. I think Jim is addressing a very significant issue here and I completely agree with it.  I just thought I would be someone who jumps in and says “alright , alright, very good, but lets not go nuts here” as it seems some readers may be looking a little too far into the whole premise.   Just dont go spending money on this to find “stage two” of the secret move and dont sit and contemplate the idea for hours.  The entire premise is available at the suface on page one. And its a fantastic premise. .  



Regarding set up:
- Grab an 8 iron and sole it properly on hard ground.  See where the shaft is.  Walk into a golf store and see how the irons are displayed.

1) Get into your golf stance, let arms hang below you and clap hands together.
2) Tilt your spine to the right a bit so your right hand can slide down the grip lower than the left.  Your hands will now be slightly forward, head slightly back.   The grip will be in front of your inner thigh.  You will feel it laying more across your fingers.  The club will be resting on the floor as it was designed.  

I didnt invent this or any other ideas.  I picked them up from books, videos and articles written by great players like Jack Nicklaus, Ernie Els, Sam Snead and Tiger Woods.

Edited by Chowdah86, 21 May 2018 - 10:19 AM.


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#4131 Jasonic

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 10:21 AM

View PostChowdah86, on 21 May 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Hey its a golf forum, with a 100 pages of discussion around one concept. I think Jim is addressing a very significant issue here and I completely agree with it.  I just thought I would be someone who jumps in and says “alright , alright, very good, but lets not go nuts here” as it seems some readers may be looking a little too far into the whole premise.   Just dont go spending money on this to find “stage two” of the secret move and dont sit and contemplate the idea for hours.  The entire premise is available at the suface on page one. And its a fantastic premice. .  



Regarding set up:
- Grab an 8 iron and sole it properly on hard ground.  See where the shaft is.  Walk into a golf store and see how the irons are displayed.

1) Get into your golf stance, let arms hang below you and clap hands together.
2) Tilt your spine to the right a bit so your right hand can slide down the grip lower than the left.  Your hands will now be slightly forward, head slightly back.   The grip will be in front of your inner thigh.  You will feel it laying more across your fingers.  The club will be resting on the floor as it was designed.  

I didnt invent this or any other ideas.  I picked them up from books, videos and articles written by great players like Jack Nicklaus, Ernie Els, Sam Snead and Tiger Woods.

Yes I know how to address the ball. I also know this is not where it’s supposed to be at impact. Just sayin, if you want to critique and comment on an instruction forum, you might want to know the basics of impact first. You definitely do not arrive at the same address position you just described.

Jim is amazing he cured me of the shanks I had for about 10 years in one phone call. :)
2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
Cobra f7 3/4 wood - 13.5* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 20* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

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#4132 Chowdah86

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 12:04 PM

View PostJasonic, on 21 May 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

View PostChowdah86, on 21 May 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Hey its a golf forum, with a 100 pages of discussion around one concept. I think Jim is addressing a very significant issue here and I completely agree with it.  I just thought I would be someone who jumps in and says "alright , alright, very good, but lets not go nuts here" as it seems some readers may be looking a little too far into the whole premise.   Just dont go spending money on this to find "stage two" of the secret move and dont sit and contemplate the idea for hours.  The entire premise is available at the suface on page one. And its a fantastic premice. .  



Regarding set up:
- Grab an 8 iron and sole it properly on hard ground.  See where the shaft is.  Walk into a golf store and see how the irons are displayed.

1) Get into your golf stance, let arms hang below you and clap hands together.
2) Tilt your spine to the right a bit so your right hand can slide down the grip lower than the left.  Your hands will now be slightly forward, head slightly back.   The grip will be in front of your inner thigh.  You will feel it laying more across your fingers.  The club will be resting on the floor as it was designed.  

I didnt invent this or any other ideas.  I picked them up from books, videos and articles written by great players like Jack Nicklaus, Ernie Els, Sam Snead and Tiger Woods.

Yes I know how to address the ball. I also know this is not where it's supposed to be at impact. Just sayin, if you want to critique and comment on an instruction forum, you might want to know the basics of impact first. You definitely do not arrive at the same address position you just described.

Jim is amazing he cured me of the shanks I had for about 10 years in one phone call. :)


Agreed, Jim is great.  His ideas are awesome, and hes doing a lot of good putting this out there.  

As for the club at impact,  sure arriving at impact with more forward shaft lean than address is a great thought.  It will help to prevent the opposite action; flipping, fat and adding loft (which is very common).  You are also likely to hit it further as you will be reducing the dynmic loft through impact, vs hanging back and adding loft like so many do.  But how much do you want to reduce dynamic loft and why?

Also, Im refering to the club's position, not the bodies position.  Remember, the ball has no idea where your elbow and your head is.  It also doesnt care weather you Pivoted and lifted at 45* or you stacked and tilted.   Although these things influence what the club face does, the only thing that has an imact on what the ball does is the face.  Thats the only rule, all other 'supposed to's' are debatable in my book.


Im not sure what Jim told you on the phone to help with the shanks, but my guess is that as an experienced and accomplished teacher, he has seen many cases of the shanks and found that many of them are caused by similar things.  He gave you some moves and thoughts to help make that club make contact more on the toe of the face.

If I had the shanks, Id go to the range and try to hit it out of the toe 100 times.  I would also try to figure out what my body is doing to make the hosel return to the ball instead of the middle of the face.  Maybe I started to crowd the ball, maybe Im moving toward it, getting too quick etc.   The point is that golf can become really difficult and scary If we buy too much into other peoples tips, mysterious philosophies and ideas.  We can lose sight of what matters (impact) and will never truly own our swings or improve.  Just a word of caution on a 138 page thread devoted to a golf swing philosphy.

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#4133 Jasonic

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 03:01 PM

View PostChowdah86, on 21 May 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 21 May 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

View PostChowdah86, on 21 May 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Hey its a golf forum, with a 100 pages of discussion around one concept. I think Jim is addressing a very significant issue here and I completely agree with it.  I just thought I would be someone who jumps in and says "alright , alright, very good, but lets not go nuts here" as it seems some readers may be looking a little too far into the whole premise.   Just dont go spending money on this to find "stage two" of the secret move and dont sit and contemplate the idea for hours.  The entire premise is available at the suface on page one. And its a fantastic premice. .  



Regarding set up:
- Grab an 8 iron and sole it properly on hard ground.  See where the shaft is.  Walk into a golf store and see how the irons are displayed.

1) Get into your golf stance, let arms hang below you and clap hands together.
2) Tilt your spine to the right a bit so your right hand can slide down the grip lower than the left.  Your hands will now be slightly forward, head slightly back.   The grip will be in front of your inner thigh.  You will feel it laying more across your fingers.  The club will be resting on the floor as it was designed.  

I didnt invent this or any other ideas.  I picked them up from books, videos and articles written by great players like Jack Nicklaus, Ernie Els, Sam Snead and Tiger Woods.

Yes I know how to address the ball. I also know this is not where it's supposed to be at impact. Just sayin, if you want to critique and comment on an instruction forum, you might want to know the basics of impact first. You definitely do not arrive at the same address position you just described.

Jim is amazing he cured me of the shanks I had for about 10 years in one phone call. :)


Agreed, Jim is great.  His ideas are awesome, and hes doing a lot of good putting this out there.  

As for the club at impact,  sure arriving at impact with more forward shaft lean than address is a great thought.  It will help to prevent the opposite action; flipping, fat and adding loft (which is very common).  You are also likely to hit it further as you will be reducing the dynmic loft through impact, vs hanging back and adding loft like so many do.  But how much do you want to reduce dynamic loft and why?

Also, Im refering to the club's position, not the bodies position.  Remember, the ball has no idea where your elbow and your head is.  It also doesnt care weather you Pivoted and lifted at 45* or you stacked and tilted.   Although these things influence what the club face does, the only thing that has an imact on what the ball does is the face.  Thats the only rule, all other 'supposed to's' are debatable in my book.


Im not sure what Jim told you on the phone to help with the shanks, but my guess is that as an experienced and accomplished teacher, he has seen many cases of the shanks and found that many of them are caused by similar things.  He gave you some moves and thoughts to help make that club make contact more on the toe of the face.

If I had the shanks, Id go to the range and try to hit it out of the toe 100 times.  I would also try to figure out what my body is doing to make the hosel return to the ball instead of the middle of the face.  Maybe I started to crowd the ball, maybe Im moving toward it, getting too quick etc.   The point is that golf can become really difficult and scary If we buy too much into other peoples tips, mysterious philosophies and ideas.  We can lose sight of what matters (impact) and will never truly own our swings or improve.  Just a word of caution on a 138 page thread devoted to a golf swing philosphy.

you've obviously never had the chronic shanks!! lol  (seriously, good for you) It's pretty much all mental because it never happened on the range, and just when playing and in a higher pressure situation.
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#4134 RattlesnakeRon

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 09:33 PM

Super-relevant Gears 3D analysis of lead shoulder adduction angle and depth at top of pro driver swing:



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#4135 ironcat

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 04:54 PM

View PostChowdah86, on 20 May 2018 - 07:58 AM, said:

The golf swing is a rotation around your spine, like a wheel around a spoke.  It has to be.  Understanding that will allow you to understand that you rotate the club back, you dont swing it behind you w your arms.  

That said, There is a major issue with humans swinging a golf club (#2 gets to the issue):

1) Lets get one thing straight.  When set on the ground as it is designed to be, The golf club is pointed at your belt (roughly).  Thats where the swing occurs, rotating around your belt on the shaft plane established at address.  Thats where the club wants to swing. Thats the slot, the go zone.  Thats why we hold the grip closer to 90* across our fingers and flatten the shaft behind us, all to help return to that shaft plane established at address.  Thats how we resole the club correctly. Its where it was designed to swing.    Try swining club freely down low on that shaft plane, rotating around you.  It rolls and hinges itself automatically down there.  It feels great.  You will hear and feel crisp contact (but not very much speed, so we must deviate from it to build speed).

2). The problem with the golf swing is that our arms are attached to our shoulders, not our hips, where the shaft plane is.  

      - So what happens: we rotate the swing to the top where our shoulders are.  Then swing straight down from up there.  The result is Over the top.  
      - Therefore, we need to make some sort of move to get that club back down on the shaft plane. Thats what all this shallowing business is about.  Bumping hips, knees, pausing, posting, dropping elbows to side, feeling it lay off, pulling the chain etc.  Jims version of this is layingbthe shaft off and feelibg the club move back down that V in front of you. That whimsicle shape that unlocks everything.  

Jims ideas are good, but pretty basic.   The swing is a rotation around your spine.  You shouldnt sweep your arms side to side like sweeping the floor.  That and you’ll have to swing up and then back down, keeping it in front of your chest.  This tends to follow a V shape, yea.  

The pivot and V visuals are good, but we can get through this idea in one sentence and move on.  Just understand that the objective is to return the club to the position is was at at address.  Part and parcel to that, is returning to the address plane, where the club was designed to swing (yes, rotating around your spine, and yes, rotating in front of your chest, not swiping side to side).  

I just hope I get the chance to play a skins match against the guy that watches all these videos and thinks about pushing his club up a V in front of him in the takeaway on every tee box.

So give us a better visual?


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#4136 WILDTHING

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 07:52 AM

Hi Jim - just a quick question. Whenever you say 'On Plane' in your replies do you mean the same as in TGM terms (ie. tracing the 'swing plane line' or 'ball-target line')?

Edited by WILDTHING, 07 June 2018 - 07:53 AM.


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#4137 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 08:51 AM

View PostWILDTHING, on 07 June 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Hi Jim - just a quick question. Whenever you say 'On Plane' in your replies do you mean the same as in TGM terms (ie. tracing the 'swing plane line' or 'ball-target line')?

On plane meaning Setup shaft plane angle to the ground staying the same almost to the Top, where it will naturally tend to steepen by around 10 degrees toward end of the backswing.

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#4138 WILDTHING

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 04:44 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 June 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

View PostWILDTHING, on 07 June 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Hi Jim - just a quick question. Whenever you say 'On Plane' in your replies do you mean the same as in TGM terms (ie. tracing the 'swing plane line' or 'ball-target line')?

On plane meaning Setup shaft plane angle to the ground staying the same almost to the Top, where it will naturally tend to steepen by around 10 degrees toward end of the backswing.

Many thanks for the reply

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#4139 WILDTHING

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:43 PM

Hi Jim

Has the 'swing illusion'  been made even more 'illusionary'  by 'swing modelling'  , 3D analysis and recent golf science research?

Imho, trying to picture the blending of the club path by the independent movement of the arms going up and down (albeit at 45 degrees to the chest in the takeaway)  while pivoting is a bit more complex than the 'in plane driven double pendulum' model'  (where it's easier to see how CF forces can be utilised during release by divergence of hand vs clubhead path).

I've already mentioned the 'Ryke' effect  (conical path of the clubshaft /clubhead) in a few previous threads but that could be an  illusion too because it assumes an 'in plane double pendulum '  into P6 and then being 'knocked off that plane'  to evoke that 'Ryke effect'.  But when I try to see through your  'swing illusion'  it seems as if we don't have any  'in plane double pendulum'  motion relative to my arm swing centre (ie. sternum notch) so there is no Ryke effect to evoke. The arms are going up and away from my SN in the backswing (at 45 degrees in the takeaway and slightly more lead arm adduction by P4) , then as they come back down through the bottom of the 'swing', my pivot moves my body out of the way to allow my arms to swing up and away from my SN (at an angle again) in the follow-through. But If your swing illusion is correct, then are pga pro golfers also being fooled by this illusion because research data does show many of them do use lead arm supination from release to impact (which I assume you do not advocate)?

Finally , do you think this Jug McSpaden drill that Bobby Shave demonstrates (in the video below from 3:30  - 5:13) is a good way to see through this 'Swing Illusion'?


Edited by WILDTHING, 10 June 2018 - 07:44 PM.


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#4140 Jim Waldron

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 10:37 AM

No on your last question.

First question, some of the 3D systems miss the asi, certainly. At least the really important part of zero independent upper arm motion (across mid-line laterally - not upper arm rotation) in the shoulder sockets during Release until just after impact.  I discussed this issue in depth in my Module Five Part B video on the Release. This is the most counter-intuitive aspect of the golf swing, imo. 3D systems will no doubt evolve and improve.  Hogan understood this and told it to Weiskopf, who shared it with me at the 1977 PGA championship at Pebble.  "Super-Connection" is the term for this.

Ryke effect is nothing new - just an old concept re-packaged.

Yes - there is forearm roll in the Release, counter-clockwise. What I call the "small circle" inside the "big circle" of the Pivot.

As long as the arm roll happens with at least some wrist c0ck, it has an effect on clubhead path and angle of attack, ie moves path leftwards and steepens the angle of attack.  Once the wrist c0ck is done, then no more effect on path and angle of attack.


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