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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#4081 BigEx44

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 04:50 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 November 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:


Hi G - thanks for your feedback and congrats on your tournament victory!

Great insights from you on the importance of width and keeping hands/arms/club in front of the trail side of your chest.

Hogan talked about the "arms getting a free ride down" in Five Lessons. That phrase plus how he described his downswing as a chain reaction starting with the left hip pulling on the arms in an unbroken chain is a great way to understand how the arms work in the downswing.

There is a popular thread right now on this forum about the Malaska move, and the usual 2D illusions and mis-perceptions are running rampant in some of those comments. The arms are pulled down by the forces of the Pivot, as Hogan so clearly stated.

There is no need for the arms to "do anything" on their own, and any attempt to use the arm muscles to "help out" during the downswing almost always ends in disaster. When you picture the arms as two sides of your Triangle, and when the base of the Triangle rotates and tilts, it moves the two sides or arms down, out and forward.

The arm swing illusion makes us believe that we need to "do something" with our arm muscles to move the arms.

When you let the Pivot forces do their thing, which includes momentum acting on the right elbow, which will gradually straighten the right elbow, that will allow a small amount of independent motion of the upper arm bones in the shoulder socket, enough to move your arms down, out and forward (toward mid-line) just the right amount, then the golf swing can indeed be a "free-wheeling" athletic motion, devoid of any sort of manipulation.

I haven't followed this whole thread.  But I did want to thank you for your "arm swing illusion" video.  It's fantastic.  And it helped change my golf game in a big way.  Your video (along with a Brian Sparks video which got me to finally shift my weight effectively) took me from a 13 handicap down to a 9 this past summer.  No easy thing for a 60 yr old who didn't pick up golf until his 40's.  Thank you so much for that!


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#4082 Jim Waldron

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 11:14 PM

View PostBigEx44, on 17 November 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 November 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Hi G - thanks for your feedback and congrats on your tournament victory!

Great insights from you on the importance of width and keeping hands/arms/club in front of the trail side of your chest.

Hogan talked about the "arms getting a free ride down" in Five Lessons. That phrase plus how he described his downswing as a chain reaction starting with the left hip pulling on the arms in an unbroken chain is a great way to understand how the arms work in the downswing.

There is a popular thread right now on this forum about the Malaska move, and the usual 2D illusions and mis-perceptions are running rampant in some of those comments. The arms are pulled down by the forces of the Pivot, as Hogan so clearly stated.

There is no need for the arms to "do anything" on their own, and any attempt to use the arm muscles to "help out" during the downswing almost always ends in disaster. When you picture the arms as two sides of your Triangle, and when the base of the Triangle rotates and tilts, it moves the two sides or arms down, out and forward.

The arm swing illusion makes us believe that we need to "do something" with our arm muscles to move the arms.

When you let the Pivot forces do their thing, which includes momentum acting on the right elbow, which will gradually straighten the right elbow, that will allow a small amount of independent motion of the upper arm bones in the shoulder socket, enough to move your arms down, out and forward (toward mid-line) just the right amount, then the golf swing can indeed be a "free-wheeling" athletic motion, devoid of any sort of manipulation.

I haven't followed this whole thread.  But I did want to thank you for your "arm swing illusion" video.  It's fantastic.  And it helped change my golf game in a big way.  Your video (along with a Brian Sparks video which got me to finally shift my weight effectively) took me from a 13 handicap down to a 9 this past summer.  No easy thing for a 60 yr old who didn't pick up golf until his 40's.  Thank you so much for that!

Hi B and thank you for your feedback!

My ASI video has helped scores of golfers to breakthrough - as you did - to much better ballstriking. It covers all the bases as to why the illusion is so powerful and how it creates such a toxic effect on one's golf swing.

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#4083 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:53 PM

I have had some inquiries about when Module Seven on Balance will be released. We hope to have it up on our website for download by December 26. It will be a bit over 90 minutes in total viewing time. I discuss everything I know about Balance, and how to achieve "rock-solid balance" (Hogan's term, who was a fanatic about Balance, by the way!).  Lots of drills, and some important information on ground force pressures, and how to achieve a solid Lower Body Stability Platform,. one of the big keys to better balance during the golf swing.

"Module Eight: Tempo, Rhythm and Timing" will be released around mid-January. Mod eight is the last in the Great Shot! video instruction series.

Upcoming videos for release later this winter are two videos devoted to the mental game: "Mastering the Mental Game: the Art of Shotmaking" which covers how to use your mind properly to hit much better golf shots, along with pre-shot routine fundamentals and how to "flinch-proof" your golf swing.

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#4084 chips&yips

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice.

Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws.

http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos

And here is a small sample of that video: https://www.youtube....XUy5KN8AYM#t=24

We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc.

Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well.  http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop.  

Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements.

My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively.   http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books


Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway.

Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
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#4085 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:20 PM

View Postchips&yips, on 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice.

Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws.

http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos

And here is a small sample of that video: https://www.youtube....XUy5KN8AYM#t=24

We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc.

Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well.  http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop.  

Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements.

My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively.   http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books


Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway.

Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0


Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing.

Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver.

If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my  Module Two video on the ASI.


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#4086 chips&yips

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:32 PM

Please look at this video on lead arm abduction, and then tell me that the arms don't move across the chest.

https://www.youtube....h?v=WQ-58jSaGgI

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#4087 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:39 PM

Apparently you did not read my reply or you suffer from a massive reading comprehension problem.

I see that even after three years and over 700,000 page views, there are still a few die-hard trolls left who are attracted to this thread....

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#4088 starsail85

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 12:10 PM

Jim

One thing Iíve always struggled with is the ďclosing the gapĒ between the shoulders and hips in the downswing, I believe you state that the shoulders should rotate at 2x the rpm the hips do in transition or downswing .

I also find it hard to use my core , and the idea that the belly muscles is the first part of transition is a difficult one for me to understand ., but it maybe explains why i struggle to get my shoulders rotating to catch up with the hips

I can do the drill where you make a backswing , stop and keep the legs still whilst I hit the ball via turning the chest . This always gets me in sync and hitting it straight

Anyhow , I was hitting balls today and experimenting with trying to use the ground , maintain the lower body brace but also to feel like my pelvis sinks alittle and Iím increasing the pressure in my feet . Whilst videoing the swing i could see that my shoulders caught up with my hips more and it felt right in sync

How important is the using the ground/squat/increase in knee flex etc move to providing a stable base for the core muscles to power and rotate the upper torso to close the gap ?
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#4089 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 02:36 PM

View Poststarsail85, on 26 November 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Jim

One thing I've always struggled with is the "closing the gap" between the shoulders and hips in the downswing, I believe you state that the shoulders should rotate at 2x the rpm the hips do in transition or downswing .

I also find it hard to use my core , and the idea that the belly muscles is the first part of transition is a difficult one for me to understand ., but it maybe explains why i struggle to get my shoulders rotating to catch up with the hips

I can do the drill where you make a backswing , stop and keep the legs still whilst I hit the ball via turning the chest . This always gets me in sync and hitting it straight

Anyhow , I was hitting balls today and experimenting with trying to use the ground , maintain the lower body brace but also to feel like my pelvis sinks alittle and I'm increasing the pressure in my feet . Whilst videoing the swing i could see that my shoulders caught up with my hips more and it felt right in sync

How important is the using the ground/squat/increase in knee flex etc move to providing a stable base for the core muscles to power and rotate the upper torso to close the gap ?

Per your last sentence, the lower or squat or re-grounding move is super important. The Core activation connects the upper body pivot (torso/s girdle) with the lower body pivot (hips) and takes the excess "slack" out of the body so that your s girdle/arms Triangle can deliver the clubhead into the ball "on time".

In the past two years there have been a lot of threads on this forum about the arms lagging the body on the forward swing, and I am not a fan of the usual prescribed remedies, which is to make an independent upper arm in the shoulder socket move powered by the arm muscles. That can be one solution, but only one I would recommend to young strong pro level players with very fast tempos especially on Transition. For the vast majority of golfers, there are three solutions that work really well: one is to activate the Core to take the slack out, another is to learn how to rotate the s girdle (along with tilt switch) at twice the rpm speed of the hips, and the third is to actively use the Core (not just the s girdle) to propel the arms Triangle forward.

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#4090 Kiwi2

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 07:14 PM

Module 7 Trailer



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#4091 Jim Waldron

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 07:49 PM

View PostKiwi2, on 02 January 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Module 7 Trailer



Here is the description from our website about Module Seven on Balance. Total viewing time is one hour and twenty-two minutes.

"The Module Seven video in our Great Shot!: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video instruction series is devoted to one of Jim Waldron’s three Master Fundamentals of the Golf Swing: Balance, and how the Lower Body performs in the model golf swing. Topics covered include: Dynamic Balance, ballstriking balance drills, balance points in the feet, Vertical Balance Line, ground force pressures, the truth about “weight shift” in the lower body, Lower Body Stability Platform and why it is so essential to good ballstriking, the toxic influence of the Righting Instinct, Balance centers in the body, proper footwork, the Sam Snead bow-legged “squat” and how the proper mechanics of the knees, feet, legs and hips will allow you to achieve much more consistent ballstriking."

Available for purchase/download here: http://www.balancepo...t-shot-module-7

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#4092 bthomps33

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 07:52 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 18 November 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

View Postchips&yips, on 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice. Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws. http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos And here is a small sample of that video: https://www.youtube....XUy5KN8AYM#t=24 We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc. Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepo...x.php/pro-shop. Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements. My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway. Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.
I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest. I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0
Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing. Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver. If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my Module Two video on the ASI.

Jim, I don't think his understanding of it is flawed, it's just a different way of interpreting it. I believe he was saying that if you have a back swing with no abduction it would be very short and awkward since you didn't mention anything about arm abduction in the post he quoted. My left arm would point 180 degrees away from the the target with no abduction, whereas with abduction it gets to maybe 250ish degrees (obviously dependent on a persons flexibility.) I can understand both of your point of views, and I think both of you are correct.

I have a question for you. I can reach the same point at the top of my backswing whether I lift my arms at a 45 degree and or not; just like you stated. The point of doing it your way is just to maintain the backswing of the club on the same swing plane as the downswing, correct? This is why instructors have you move the club straight back on the beginning of the backswing; it forces you to start moving the arms up?

Edited by bthomps33, 21 January 2018 - 08:03 AM.


12

#4093 Jim Waldron

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 01:07 PM

View Postbthomps33, on 21 January 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 18 November 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

View Postchips&yips, on 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice. Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws. http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos And here is a small sample of that video: https://www.youtube....XUy5KN8AYM#t=24 We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc. Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepo...x.php/pro-shop. Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements. My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway. Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.
I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest. I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0
Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing. Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver. If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my Module Two video on the ASI.

Jim, I don't think his understanding of it is flawed, it's just a different way of interpreting it. I believe he was saying that if you have a back swing with no abduction it would be very short and awkward since you didn't mention anything about arm abduction in the post he quoted. My left arm would point 180 degrees away from the the target with no abduction, whereas with abduction it gets to maybe 250ish degrees (obviously dependent on a persons flexibility.) I can understand both of your point of views, and I think both of you are correct.

I have a question for you. I can reach the same point at the top of my backswing whether I lift my arms at a 45 degree and or not; just like you stated. The point of doing it your way is just to maintain the backswing of the club on the same swing plane as the downswing, correct? This is why instructors have you move the club straight back on the beginning of the backswing; it forces you to start moving the arms up?


Sorry, but his understanding could not be more flawed. I have never - ever - taught that there is zero abduction of the lead arm. Any one reading this thread will understand that. His entire premise is blatantly wrong.

Any golfer with an open mind will not have a problem understanding what I advocate as far as the asi concept.  Lead arm moves to a 45 degree angle to the chest on takeaway, and further abducts on second half of backswing (except for wedges which will maintain that 45 angle or close to it) up to 75 degrees with a driver. Then the lead arm will adduct - move back closer to mid-line of torso - during Transition.

Yes - keeping shaft on plane requires the arm pushaway blended into the Pivot along with wrist c0ck and hinge, and prevents you from getting arms stuck behind the body. Not sure I understand your question about "forcing" arm lift. I do not teach using arm muscles to lift the arms - folding of right elbow makes the left arm go up. The pushaway also creates more width for a wider arc and more clubhead speed.

Arms move up and down in a V shape motion in front of the rotating chest - NOT an I shaped motion which is what would happen if there was no abduction/adduction.

If anyone really struggles with understanding this, there is an easy solution: buy and study my Module Two video on the ASI, it is over two hours in length and explores this subject in depth. I have never had a single person who bought the video and studied it tell me that they still did not "get it".

13

#4094 boatrightgolf7

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 11:21 PM

View PostKiwi2, on 25 April 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

A major part of Jim Waldron’s teaching is based on overcoming what he calls
the Arm Swing Illusion. Jim has found that many of his students improve
rapidly once they become aware of it.

Questions have been asked on the forum for an explanation. With Jim’s approval a condensed and simplified explanation follows.

What is it?
It is an illusion which is created by our natural tendency to view the swing
in a two dimensional way. This causes us to see the swinging motion of the
arms hands and club as a sideways movement across the chest and around the
torso.
It appears that way to us as we look down at the ball during the swing. It
also appears that way as we observe others swinging.
This has caused problems for many as they try to learn the golf swing.

What really happens with the arms in a good motion?
If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the
target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist
high.
The right elbow then bends to around 90 degrees which raises the left arm.
The independent arm action then stops as the torso continues turning so that
the shoulder girdle is at a 90 degree angle to the spine.
In other words the arms push away from the torso rather than being pulled in
towards it.

Jim has some drills that help learn this and they work. But they are part of
his teaching and you will need to either take a lesson from him, or wait
until his books are published to learn them.

How do I know what it is?
I have spent time with Jim in Hawaii over two occasions not so many years ago. Both experiences were very positive.The first time I attended his Ultimate Golf School (two attendees). The Second, his Great Shot (6 attendees) and Rip it to the Target mental game school (I was the only attendee). Jim then invited me back to help. Other commitments have stopped me doing this to date. I have his DVDs and his manuals.

I hope that answered some of your questions.
Cool I guess seems a bit over complicated with to many degrees and not enough visual explanation.

14

#4095 Jim Waldron

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 08:14 PM

View Postboatrightgolf7, on 30 January 2018 - 11:21 PM, said:

View PostKiwi2, on 25 April 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

A major part of Jim Waldron’s teaching is based on overcoming what he calls
the Arm Swing Illusion. Jim has found that many of his students improve
rapidly once they become aware of it.

Questions have been asked on the forum for an explanation. With Jim’s approval a condensed and simplified explanation follows.

What is it?
It is an illusion which is created by our natural tendency to view the swing
in a two dimensional way. This causes us to see the swinging motion of the
arms hands and club as a sideways movement across the chest and around the
torso.
It appears that way to us as we look down at the ball during the swing. It
also appears that way as we observe others swinging.
This has caused problems for many as they try to learn the golf swing.

What really happens with the arms in a good motion?
If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the
target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist
high.
The right elbow then bends to around 90 degrees which raises the left arm.
The independent arm action then stops as the torso continues turning so that
the shoulder girdle is at a 90 degree angle to the spine.
In other words the arms push away from the torso rather than being pulled in
towards it.

Jim has some drills that help learn this and they work. But they are part of
his teaching and you will need to either take a lesson from him, or wait
until his books are published to learn them.

How do I know what it is?
I have spent time with Jim in Hawaii over two occasions not so many years ago. Both experiences were very positive.The first time I attended his Ultimate Golf School (two attendees). The Second, his Great Shot (6 attendees) and Rip it to the Target mental game school (I was the only attendee). Jim then invited me back to help. Other commitments have stopped me doing this to date. I have his DVDs and his manuals.

I hope that answered some of your questions.
Cool I guess seems a bit over complicated with to many degrees and not enough visual explanation.

That was just the first of many, many posts, and Kiwi was just presenting the basic concept for discussion. Its not complicated at all, but is impossible to understand if you don't have an open mind. Plenty of visual references in this thread if you take the time to look for them. Or get the 2.5 hour video mentioned above that explores the asi concept in depth.


15

#4096 dodger

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:19 AM

I have been dealing with a right shoulder issue that has significantly affected my swing. My ability to rotate the right arm externally is impaired and my normal swing, which has always been arm swing dependent, causes too much pain to get the left arm up enough. In trying this philosophy, my left arm can actually get high enough where I can swing, as the right arm isn't going too far around, but more up and down. My question is on the rotation of the forearms, does any occur in the downswing? I did purchase the ebook, but I cannot download it.

16

#4097 Jim Waldron

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:41 AM

View Postdodger, on 16 February 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

I have been dealing with a right shoulder issue that has significantly affected my swing. My ability to rotate the right arm externally is impaired and my normal swing, which has always been arm swing dependent, causes too much pain to get the left arm up enough. In trying this philosophy, my left arm can actually get high enough where I can swing, as the right arm isn't going too far around, but more up and down. My question is on the rotation of the forearms, does any occur in the downswing? I did purchase the ebook, but I cannot download it.

Yes - there is some forearm rotation in the downswing. How much depends on your preferred shot shape pattern. In general, I teach that what squares the clubface is about 80% body rotation and 20% forearm rotation.

I sent you an email about the download issue. Please let me know if that fix worked for you. You need to have E-Pub format e-book reading software installed on your device for the download link to open.

17

#4098 dodger

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 02:50 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 16 February 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

View Postdodger, on 16 February 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

I have been dealing with a right shoulder issue that has significantly affected my swing. My ability to rotate the right arm externally is impaired and my normal swing, which has always been arm swing dependent, causes too much pain to get the left arm up enough. In trying this philosophy, my left arm can actually get high enough where I can swing, as the right arm isn't going too far around, but more up and down. My question is on the rotation of the forearms, does any occur in the downswing? I did purchase the ebook, but I cannot download it.

Yes - there is some forearm rotation in the downswing. How much depends on your preferred shot shape pattern. In general, I teach that what squares the clubface is about 80% body rotation and 20% forearm rotation.

I sent you an email about the download issue. Please let me know if that fix worked for you. You need to have E-Pub format e-book reading software installed on your device for the download link to open.
Got it open, thanks Jim!

18

#4099 tgreenwood11

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:30 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 21 January 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

View Postbthomps33, on 21 January 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 18 November 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

View Postchips&yips, on 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice. Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws. http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos And here is a small sample of that video: https://www.youtube....XUy5KN8AYM#t=24 We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc. Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well. http://www.balancepo...x.php/pro-shop. Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements. My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively. http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway. Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.
I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest. I have a hard time with this concept. There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing. Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler. At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest. It is not at a 45 degree angle. Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0
Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing. Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver. If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my Module Two video on the ASI.

Jim, I don't think his understanding of it is flawed, it's just a different way of interpreting it. I believe he was saying that if you have a back swing with no abduction it would be very short and awkward since you didn't mention anything about arm abduction in the post he quoted. My left arm would point 180 degrees away from the the target with no abduction, whereas with abduction it gets to maybe 250ish degrees (obviously dependent on a persons flexibility.) I can understand both of your point of views, and I think both of you are correct.

I have a question for you. I can reach the same point at the top of my backswing whether I lift my arms at a 45 degree and or not; just like you stated. The point of doing it your way is just to maintain the backswing of the club on the same swing plane as the downswing, correct? This is why instructors have you move the club straight back on the beginning of the backswing; it forces you to start moving the arms up?


Sorry, but his understanding could not be more flawed. I have never - ever - taught that there is zero abduction of the lead arm. Any one reading this thread will understand that. His entire premise is blatantly wrong.

Any golfer with an open mind will not have a problem understanding what I advocate as far as the asi concept.  Lead arm moves to a 45 degree angle to the chest on takeaway, and further abducts on second half of backswing (except for wedges which will maintain that 45 angle or close to it) up to 75 degrees with a driver. Then the lead arm will adduct - move back closer to mid-line of torso - during Transition.

Yes - keeping shaft on plane requires the arm pushaway blended into the Pivot along with wrist c0ck and hinge, and prevents you from getting arms stuck behind the body. Not sure I understand your question about "forcing" arm lift. I do not teach using arm muscles to lift the arms - folding of right elbow makes the left arm go up. The pushaway also creates more width for a wider arc and more clubhead speed.

Arms move up and down in a V shape motion in front of the rotating chest - NOT an I shaped motion which is what would happen if there was no abduction/adduction.

If anyone really struggles with understanding this, there is an easy solution: buy and study my Module Two video on the ASI, it is over two hours in length and explores this subject in depth. I have never had a single person who bought the video and studied it tell me that they still did not "get it".


I've been working on this.  It feels like a reroute.  Does that sensation of reroute eventually go away? Thx

19

#4100 Jim Waldron

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:43 PM

Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!


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#4101 tgreenwood11

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:52 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 March 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!

Got it; great stuff. Thank you.

21

#4102 tgreenwood11

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 03:02 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 March 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!

One more comment on this.  I looking at Fred Couples move away, unless this is an illusion, it looks like his move is out, up, in.  I think that is what I was doing but you explained it with the need to 'blend". Thanks

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#4103 Jim Waldron

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 04:43 PM

View Posttgreenwood11, on 23 March 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 23 March 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Depends on how you define "re-route". If you overdo the arm pushaway, you will have to do a big in to out looping action with the arms on Transition. If you do the recommended total amount of arm pushaway during takeaway (4-8 ") and blend that motion properly with your Pivot, the shaft will track back on plane. Will not require a big re-route loop on Transition if done properly in that way.

Most folks when first learning this way overdo the arm pushaway. Average height adults I recommend 6" of total arm pushaway by end of takeaway, and about one-third of that or 2" is created by momentum from the Pivot. So really only 4" of total independent arm motion in pushaway using the arm muscles to create that 4" of motion. I see folks doing 18" all the time - nowhere near that 4".

And I see students doing the arm pushaway first, and then later adding the Pivot. Big, big mistake!

You have to blend the two simultaneously or even start first with the Pivot and a micro-second later add the arm pushaway.

I have said it many, many times here on this thread, this forum and in my videos - doing this kind of takeaway properly is NOT an "upright swing plane" or an "outside takeaway" in any fashion - not even close to those things.

The best players in the world - with few exceptions - are doing this takeaway right now. It creates an on plane motion with the club, NOT an outside the plane motion. If club goes outside even a tiny bit - you are doing it wrong!

One more comment on this.  I looking at Fred Couples move away, unless this is an illusion, it looks like his move is out, up, in.  I think that is what I was doing but you explained it with the need to 'blend". Thanks

Correct. Fred does the arm pushaway first, which requires a big in to out loop in his Transition. Trevino, Furyk, Jay Haas also have that same move.

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#4104 tgreenwood11

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 08:51 AM

I suppose the converse of that move is like Ray Floyd who seemed to whip the club head inside and then made a reverse loop to an almost laid off position at the top.

The move you teach eliminates these compensations. I think I feel much more on plane. Great work. Thank you

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#4105 Tanner25

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 09:32 AM

Jim,

Do most pros intentionally use the ASI system or is this just a better solution for an amateur, just curious!

Thanks! Tanner


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#4106 Jim Waldron

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 10:59 AM

View PostTanner25, on 24 March 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

Jim,

Do most pros intentionally use the ASI system or is this just a better solution for an amateur, just curious!

Thanks! Tanner

It's not a system or a method. It is a description of what happens - to some degree - in majority of good swings. It is the starting point for seeing through a 2D view of the golf swing, which means it allows for a breakthrough in understanding what really is happening with the body motion.

"Intentionally"?  

You would have to ask the tour pros. For some, certainly. TIger knows, Ricky F knows, anyone who works with Butch knows, Foley's guys know it, et al.

The basic understanding of the importance of not getting arms stuck behind the body - both on backswing and forward swing - is a generally accepted principle of modern golf instruction.

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#4107 Jim Waldron

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 11:02 AM

View Posttgreenwood11, on 24 March 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

I suppose the converse of that move is like Ray Floyd who seemed to whip the club head inside and then made a reverse loop to an almost laid off position at the top.

The move you teach eliminates these compensations. I think I feel much more on plane. Great work. Thank you

Correct. Raymond and a few others take it inside and then do the out to in loop on Transition to compensate.  The point of the ASI is to have an on plane shaft motion throughout the swing (it will actually steepen a bit the last 1/3 of the backswing and require a slight shallowing move on Transition to counter that, steepening is due to human anatomy) so that you do not need any major compensations, just as you described.

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#4108 Tanner25

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 03:50 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 24 March 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 24 March 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

Jim,

Do most pros intentionally use the ASI system or is this just a better solution for an amateur, just curious!

Thanks! Tanner

It's not a system or a method. It is a description of what happens - to some degree - in majority of good swings. It is the starting point for seeing through a 2D view of the golf swing, which means it allows for a breakthrough in understanding what really is happening with the body motion.

"Intentionally"?  

You would have to ask the tour pros. For some, certainly. TIger knows, Ricky F knows, anyone who works with Butch knows, Foley's guys know it, et al.

The basic understanding of the importance of not getting arms stuck behind the body - both on backswing and forward swing - is a generally accepted principle of modern golf instruction.

Thanks, Jim.

28

#4109 Walter Sobchak

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 02:39 AM

Hey Jim,

After losing my swing for an insufferable time frame your insight and book have me making some confident and free swings again.  Also understanding more about my misses.  Arm swing illusion and the need to ingraine the subconscious mind in order to be singularly target focused once you address the ball were eye openers.  

After watching todayís match play coverage I was wondering what you think of Alex Norenís move?  Initially when he started playing consistently well a few years ago it wasnít visually pleasing to myself.  However, I now can really see some elements you discuss in his move and really like it.  As someone who misses left, it just appears he eliminates missing left but maintains great space and balance with a powerful strike.

Also, what module would you recommend for balance?  I was a high school pitcher, at 40 can still put around 50 yards under an NCAA football, both require a solid right leg (right handed) and leverage to generate force.  However, I struggle to generate that same force against that firmly based right leg in golf.  Iíve been working on some concepts from your book but would like some reinforcement.  Swing trigger and proper base pressures are helping but work to do.  The pitching and football throwing actions feel much more naturally fluid.

Thx

29

#4110 Jim Waldron

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 11:20 AM

View PostWalter Sobchak, on 25 March 2018 - 02:39 AM, said:

Hey Jim,

After losing my swing for an insufferable time frame your insight and book have me making some confident and free swings again.  Also understanding more about my misses.  Arm swing illusion and the need to ingraine the subconscious mind in order to be singularly target focused once you address the ball were eye openers.  

After watching today's match play coverage I was wondering what you think of Alex Noren's move?  Initially when he started playing consistently well a few years ago it wasn't visually pleasing to myself.  However, I now can really see some elements you discuss in his move and really like it.  As someone who misses left, it just appears he eliminates missing left but maintains great space and balance with a powerful strike.

Also, what module would you recommend for balance?  I was a high school pitcher, at 40 can still put around 50 yards under an NCAA football, both require a solid right leg (right handed) and leverage to generate force.  However, I struggle to generate that same force against that firmly based right leg in golf.  I've been working on some concepts from your book but would like some reinforcement.  Swing trigger and proper base pressures are helping but work to do.  The pitching and football throwing actions feel much more naturally fluid.

Thx

Hi W - All my Balance fundamentals and drills and concepts are in Module Seven video. There is some really good stuff in that Module.  One of my pet peeves about modern golf teaching is how little respect is  given to the concept of swinging in "rock-solid balance" (Hogan). It is actually MORE important than Mechanics for mid to high handicaps, because if you start off balance or become off balance at any point in the golf swing, you are going to have to make a micro-second compensation move to restore your balance, and then that move is almost always going to hurt your mechanics.   I see 20 handicaps that I work with, start to hit the ball like a ten handicap immediately once I get them set up in balance and swinging in balance.

I do love Noren's swing - really great!  All the elements of the swing model I teach is exemplified in his motion. A simple swing with very few moving parts.


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