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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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#4081 BigEx44

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 04:50 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 November 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:


Hi G - thanks for your feedback and congrats on your tournament victory!

Great insights from you on the importance of width and keeping hands/arms/club in front of the trail side of your chest.

Hogan talked about the "arms getting a free ride down" in Five Lessons. That phrase plus how he described his downswing as a chain reaction starting with the left hip pulling on the arms in an unbroken chain is a great way to understand how the arms work in the downswing.

There is a popular thread right now on this forum about the Malaska move, and the usual 2D illusions and mis-perceptions are running rampant in some of those comments. The arms are pulled down by the forces of the Pivot, as Hogan so clearly stated.

There is no need for the arms to "do anything" on their own, and any attempt to use the arm muscles to "help out" during the downswing almost always ends in disaster. When you picture the arms as two sides of your Triangle, and when the base of the Triangle rotates and tilts, it moves the two sides or arms down, out and forward.

The arm swing illusion makes us believe that we need to "do something" with our arm muscles to move the arms.

When you let the Pivot forces do their thing, which includes momentum acting on the right elbow, which will gradually straighten the right elbow, that will allow a small amount of independent motion of the upper arm bones in the shoulder socket, enough to move your arms down, out and forward (toward mid-line) just the right amount, then the golf swing can indeed be a "free-wheeling" athletic motion, devoid of any sort of manipulation.

I haven't followed this whole thread.  But I did want to thank you for your "arm swing illusion" video.  It's fantastic.  And it helped change my golf game in a big way.  Your video (along with a Brian Sparks video which got me to finally shift my weight effectively) took me from a 13 handicap down to a 9 this past summer.  No easy thing for a 60 yr old who didn't pick up golf until his 40's.  Thank you so much for that!


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#4082 Jim Waldron

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 11:14 PM

View PostBigEx44, on 17 November 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 November 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Hi G - thanks for your feedback and congrats on your tournament victory!

Great insights from you on the importance of width and keeping hands/arms/club in front of the trail side of your chest.

Hogan talked about the "arms getting a free ride down" in Five Lessons. That phrase plus how he described his downswing as a chain reaction starting with the left hip pulling on the arms in an unbroken chain is a great way to understand how the arms work in the downswing.

There is a popular thread right now on this forum about the Malaska move, and the usual 2D illusions and mis-perceptions are running rampant in some of those comments. The arms are pulled down by the forces of the Pivot, as Hogan so clearly stated.

There is no need for the arms to "do anything" on their own, and any attempt to use the arm muscles to "help out" during the downswing almost always ends in disaster. When you picture the arms as two sides of your Triangle, and when the base of the Triangle rotates and tilts, it moves the two sides or arms down, out and forward.

The arm swing illusion makes us believe that we need to "do something" with our arm muscles to move the arms.

When you let the Pivot forces do their thing, which includes momentum acting on the right elbow, which will gradually straighten the right elbow, that will allow a small amount of independent motion of the upper arm bones in the shoulder socket, enough to move your arms down, out and forward (toward mid-line) just the right amount, then the golf swing can indeed be a "free-wheeling" athletic motion, devoid of any sort of manipulation.

I haven't followed this whole thread.  But I did want to thank you for your "arm swing illusion" video.  It's fantastic.  And it helped change my golf game in a big way.  Your video (along with a Brian Sparks video which got me to finally shift my weight effectively) took me from a 13 handicap down to a 9 this past summer.  No easy thing for a 60 yr old who didn't pick up golf until his 40's.  Thank you so much for that!

Hi B and thank you for your feedback!

My ASI video has helped scores of golfers to breakthrough - as you did - to much better ballstriking. It covers all the bases as to why the illusion is so powerful and how it creates such a toxic effect on one's golf swing.

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#4083 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:53 PM

I have had some inquiries about when Module Seven on Balance will be released. We hope to have it up on our website for download by December 26. It will be a bit over 90 minutes in total viewing time. I discuss everything I know about Balance, and how to achieve "rock-solid balance" (Hogan's term, who was a fanatic about Balance, by the way!).  Lots of drills, and some important information on ground force pressures, and how to achieve a solid Lower Body Stability Platform,. one of the big keys to better balance during the golf swing.

"Module Eight: Tempo, Rhythm and Timing" will be released around mid-January. Mod eight is the last in the Great Shot! video instruction series.

Upcoming videos for release later this winter are two videos devoted to the mental game: "Mastering the Mental Game: the Art of Shotmaking" which covers how to use your mind properly to hit much better golf shots, along with pre-shot routine fundamentals and how to "flinch-proof" your golf swing.

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#4084 chips&yips

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice.

Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws.

http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos

And here is a small sample of that video: https://www.youtube....XUy5KN8AYM#t=24

We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc.

Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well.  http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop.  

Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements.

My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively.   http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books


Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway.

Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
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#4085 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:20 PM

View Postchips&yips, on 18 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 25 April 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

UPDATE: Here is a link to my new video on the Arm Swing Illusion, released on July 15, 2015. For those of you who find this illusion concept fascinating and helpful, whether you intend to continue on in your reading and study of this mega-thread, consider buying the video (available from our website as a convenient download) and watching it several times. It is designed to be as close as possible to the actual experience of a live golf school with me, and is a total viewing time of 2 hours and 42 minutes. It covers the arm swing illusion, as well as several related illusions, in depth. The video consists of an Introduction to the basic concept, drills for de-constructing the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map that are done without a golf ball, and finally drills you can do with a ball during range practice.

Any golfer who watches this video with a truly open mind will come away with a radical new understanding of what is actually happening in the modern tour pro golf swing. It is a mind-blowing experience that will challenge your previously un-questioned basic assumptions about what should be happening with the arm motion in a good golf swing. If you struggle with sucking the arms and club way inside the ideal plane in the backswing, over the top move during Transition, early wrist c0ck release and flipping, and arm dis-connection during Release, this video will show you the primary root cause of those Fatal Flaws.

http://www.balancepo...hop/golf-videos

And here is a small sample of that video: https://www.youtube....XUy5KN8AYM#t=24

We have completed the follow up video to that Arm Swing Illusion video: "Module Three - Advanced Arm Mechanics and Educated Hands" in two parts, a nearly three hour video Part A and a 40 minute video Part B. Both are available for download at the above link to our website. Module Three goes into a very detailed and technical explanation of the proper arm mechanics, and covers the Triangle concept, the Three Arm Pressures, more on the arm swing illusion, both swing map, slow motion mirror and ballstriking drills focusing on proper arm mechanics. Module Three also covers Elements Five through Nine of Educated Hands in the Balance Point System having to do with various forms of pressure, and awareness of hand path, clubhead weight, etc.

Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video is now available from our site as well.  http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop.  

Once you have a clear understanding of how the arms should work from Modules Two and Three, the next step is to learn about the basic elements of the Pivot: lateral weight shift on the forward swing, rotation, side tilt, forward Spine Angle, Tilt Illusion, Power sources, Pivot Thrust, Transition Trigger and related elements.

My e-book "Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking" also covers the Arm Swing Illusion material, but more importantly is a 205 page "encyclopedia" about the modern golf swing fundamentals, including sections on how to learn and practice effectively.   http://www.balancepo...ro-shop/e-books


Thanks, Kiwi, for explaining that. The arms pushaway on a 45 degree angle to the chest, while the chest is rotating, in an actual golf swing. But - when we first present the Illusion concept in our golf schools, we do an exaggeration drill where there is no Pivot, to show what the arms actually do in relation to the chest, and in that drill, a club is placed on the ground from the middle of one's stance on a 45 degree angle to one's right. We practice the arm pushaway action which results in the golf club in one's hands being over the shaft on the ground, and the club in one's hands parallel to the ground, with just a touch of wrist hinge and c0ck as well. Then - we do the chest/belly Pivot with arms across the chest to around 45 degrees of chest rotation. Then we combine the arm 45 angle pushaway with the chest rotation for a perfectly on-plane takeaway or moveaway motion. The blending of the two motions is the key to a real takeaway.

Russc - you are taking connection too literally. You can have the left tricep touching the pecs while the upper left arm is moving on that angle to the right of mid-line a bit. We call it "connection in motion". And it happens for most of my students after the first third or so of the actual moveaway segment. Although you could certainly do it right from the start and still keep the upper left arm touching the pec as you start to do the pushaway motion. I recommend that option for some students who are way too inside with their arms during moveaway. You just have to synchronize the two at the right speed - otherwise you will get a seperation of the left arm from the pec.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.


I have a hard time with this concept.  There can be no question that in the better players the left arm (for the right handed golfer) abducts in toward the chest as the reach the top of their backswing.  Look at Bubba Watson or Ricky Fowler.  At the top of their back swing their lead arm is laying across their chest.  It is not at a 45 degree angle.  Therefore their arms have in fact swung across their chest.
  • 0


Your understanding of the concept is flawed. The 45 degree angle is for the takeaway - NOT the Top of backswing.

Of course the arm moves on an angle to the right of golfers mid-line, but that can happen in two very different ways: the correct way is while also pushing the hands out away from your chest and the incorrect way - which gets you stuck - is to pull the arms in toward you, almost always along with a lot of bend in the right elbow. As the second half of backswing proceeds, the 45 angle will increase due to a blend of postural elements and pivot momentum, to a maximum of 70 degrees with the driver.

If you really want to understand the ASI in depth, and overcome the illusion and it's toxic effects on your swing, I suggest getting my  Module Two video on the ASI.


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#4086 chips&yips

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:32 PM

Please look at this video on lead arm abduction, and then tell me that the arms don't move across the chest.

https://www.youtube....h?v=WQ-58jSaGgI

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#4087 Jim Waldron

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:39 PM

Apparently you did not read my reply or you suffer from a massive reading comprehension problem.

I see that even after three years and over 700,000 page views, there are still a few die-hard trolls left who are attracted to this thread....

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#4088 starsail85

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 12:10 PM

Jim

One thing I’ve always struggled with is the “closing the gap” between the shoulders and hips in the downswing, I believe you state that the shoulders should rotate at 2x the rpm the hips do in transition or downswing .

I also find it hard to use my core , and the idea that the belly muscles is the first part of transition is a difficult one for me to understand ., but it maybe explains why i struggle to get my shoulders rotating to catch up with the hips

I can do the drill where you make a backswing , stop and keep the legs still whilst I hit the ball via turning the chest . This always gets me in sync and hitting it straight

Anyhow , I was hitting balls today and experimenting with trying to use the ground , maintain the lower body brace but also to feel like my pelvis sinks alittle and I’m increasing the pressure in my feet . Whilst videoing the swing i could see that my shoulders caught up with my hips more and it felt right in sync

How important is the using the ground/squat/increase in knee flex etc move to providing a stable base for the core muscles to power and rotate the upper torso to close the gap ?
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#4089 Jim Waldron

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 02:36 PM

View Poststarsail85, on 26 November 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Jim

One thing I've always struggled with is the "closing the gap" between the shoulders and hips in the downswing, I believe you state that the shoulders should rotate at 2x the rpm the hips do in transition or downswing .

I also find it hard to use my core , and the idea that the belly muscles is the first part of transition is a difficult one for me to understand ., but it maybe explains why i struggle to get my shoulders rotating to catch up with the hips

I can do the drill where you make a backswing , stop and keep the legs still whilst I hit the ball via turning the chest . This always gets me in sync and hitting it straight

Anyhow , I was hitting balls today and experimenting with trying to use the ground , maintain the lower body brace but also to feel like my pelvis sinks alittle and I'm increasing the pressure in my feet . Whilst videoing the swing i could see that my shoulders caught up with my hips more and it felt right in sync

How important is the using the ground/squat/increase in knee flex etc move to providing a stable base for the core muscles to power and rotate the upper torso to close the gap ?

Per your last sentence, the lower or squat or re-grounding move is super important. The Core activation connects the upper body pivot (torso/s girdle) with the lower body pivot (hips) and takes the excess "slack" out of the body so that your s girdle/arms Triangle can deliver the clubhead into the ball "on time".

In the past two years there have been a lot of threads on this forum about the arms lagging the body on the forward swing, and I am not a fan of the usual prescribed remedies, which is to make an independent upper arm in the shoulder socket move powered by the arm muscles. That can be one solution, but only one I would recommend to young strong pro level players with very fast tempos especially on Transition. For the vast majority of golfers, there are three solutions that work really well: one is to activate the Core to take the slack out, another is to learn how to rotate the s girdle (along with tilt switch) at twice the rpm speed of the hips, and the third is to actively use the Core (not just the s girdle) to propel the arms Triangle forward.

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#4090 Kiwi2

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 07:14 PM

Module 7 Trailer



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#4091 Jim Waldron

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 07:49 PM

View PostKiwi2, on 02 January 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Module 7 Trailer



Here is the description from our website about Module Seven on Balance. Total viewing time is one hour and twenty-two minutes.

"The Module Seven video in our Great Shot!: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video instruction series is devoted to one of Jim Waldron’s three Master Fundamentals of the Golf Swing: Balance, and how the Lower Body performs in the model golf swing. Topics covered include: Dynamic Balance, ballstriking balance drills, balance points in the feet, Vertical Balance Line, ground force pressures, the truth about “weight shift” in the lower body, Lower Body Stability Platform and why it is so essential to good ballstriking, the toxic influence of the Righting Instinct, Balance centers in the body, proper footwork, the Sam Snead bow-legged “squat” and how the proper mechanics of the knees, feet, legs and hips will allow you to achieve much more consistent ballstriking."

Available for purchase/download here: http://www.balancepo...t-shot-module-7

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