Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

* * * * - 55 votes

The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


4073 replies to this topic

#4021 RBImGuy

RBImGuy

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,070 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 30615
  • Joined: 06/03/2007
  • Location:sweden
GolfWRX Likes : 315

Posted 02 July 2017 - 02:57 AM

This is the way you want to present information, what to do, evidence when doing things correct and not.
GJ Jim.


Knows the secret to the golf swing to own it.
300+ yards and 4% dispersion for unmatched accuracy
Golf God

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#4022 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:06 PM

View PostRBImGuy, on 02 July 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

This is the way you want to present information, what to do, evidence when doing things correct and not.
GJ Jim.



Thanks!

I should add that the right elbow only moves away from the torso from it's starting position during pushaway by only a tiny amount - 2-3". It will then maintain that relationship to the torso or move another inch or so away from the torso as the right elbow folds.

It will return to the body during Transition, so that 3" to 4" gap is removed. Stays that way until shortly after impact when Pivot momentum will move both arms across torso mid-line.

2

#4023 Silky

Silky

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 663 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 103468
  • Joined: 02/15/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 161

Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:20 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

View PostRBImGuy, on 02 July 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

This is the way you want to present information, what to do, evidence when doing things correct and not.
GJ Jim.



Thanks!

I should add that the right elbow only moves away from the torso from it's starting position during pushaway by only a tiny amount - 2-3". It will then maintain that relationship to the torso or move another inch or so away from the torso as the right elbow folds.

It will return to the body during Transition, so that 3" to 4" gap is removed. Stays that way until shortly after impact when Pivot momentum will move both arms across torso mid-line.

Jim,
What is your opinion on right shoulder retraction at the top of swing?
Thanks in advance.

3

#4024 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:53 PM

View PostSilky, on 02 July 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

View PostRBImGuy, on 02 July 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

This is the way you want to present information, what to do, evidence when doing things correct and not.
GJ Jim.



Thanks!

I should add that the right elbow only moves away from the torso from it's starting position during pushaway by only a tiny amount - 2-3". It will then maintain that relationship to the torso or move another inch or so away from the torso as the right elbow folds.

It will return to the body during Transition, so that 3" to 4" gap is removed. Stays that way until shortly after impact when Pivot momentum will move both arms across torso mid-line.

Jim,
What is your opinion on right shoulder retraction at the top of swing?
Thanks in advance.

Not a fan of that concept. I like to see more structure in the shoulder girdle. Setup includes slight scapular retraction in both shoulder blades that you maintain to Finish.

4

#4025 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,770 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 1912

Posted 05 July 2017 - 11:50 PM

Jim, I saw a post by you in a different thread that said #1 most important element in a swing was "how you use your awareness and mental focus" Would you please amplify what you mean by this? Apologies if you've addressed this already in depth here... thx

Callaway Epic 10.5 Stock
Cobra Baffler 4-5 Stock
Callway xhot 3 h stock
Miura Small Blades, Modus 105R 3-W
Titleist T-MB, Modus 105S, 3-W
Fourteen mt28v3 52,58
DelaCruz B2 Sweet Slot Putter

5

#4026 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 06 July 2017 - 10:35 AM

View Postwmblake2000, on 05 July 2017 - 11:50 PM, said:

Jim, I saw a post by you in a different thread that said #1 most important element in a swing was "how you use your awareness and mental focus" Would you please amplify what you mean by this? Apologies if you've addressed this already in depth here... thx

Yeah, we did talk about the Awareness and mental focus stuff a few months ago in this thread, if you wish to go back and read some of that material.

Students who struggle with learning golf's physical skills universally have poor mental focus, poor feel sense awareness for their body motion, and in general little understanding of how the brain-mind/body best learns motor skills like the golf swing.

They tend to think of their problems with getting better at golf as mostly or even exclusively a matter of "solving" the intellectual puzzle that is the golf swing.

Except the swing is not an intellectual puzzle that needs a solution, that is only one very small part of it, and that is really the responsibility of your teacher. That is why you are paying an expert, it is his or her job to come up with a clear and proven effective overall "model" in terms of swing theory.

Learning the many swing skills is really much more about the relationship between your conscious mind (Swing Concept) and your subconscious mind (Swing Map), coordinating body parts as they move through space, inhibiting several natural but destructive impulses like the Hit or Steering Impulse, achieving Deep Insights or light bulb moments, employing your mind that is 100% focused on just one thing, fully present and aware - but not interfering - with what is actually going on with your body and club motion, etc.

I and every other teacher I know of see students everyday who intellectually know exactly what they want their body and club to do - but cannot actually do it! Which of course is actually what is really important - doing it....and doing it well requires doing it without thought, on automatic. An actual skill as opposed to a verbal checklist of "things to do inside my swing".

Swing theory is way over-rated - especially on the golf Internet.

When you have awareness, more specifically Meta-Awareness, you have the potential to learn something new, and to change your old body movement pattern for a new and better one.

When you lack that kind of awareness - all you have is theory.

6

#4027 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,770 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 1912

Posted 13 July 2017 - 12:01 AM

Thx.. I'll go back and read what has already been said and take it from there..
Callaway Epic 10.5 Stock
Cobra Baffler 4-5 Stock
Callway xhot 3 h stock
Miura Small Blades, Modus 105R 3-W
Titleist T-MB, Modus 105S, 3-W
Fourteen mt28v3 52,58
DelaCruz B2 Sweet Slot Putter

7

#4028 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 17 July 2017 - 03:07 PM

"Meta-Awareness" means the ability of your mind to observe - with a high degree of objective accuracy - what the rest of your mind is attending to, or focusing on.

Normal Awareness lacks that specific aspect, and so has a vague aspect to the quality of the awareness. With Meta-Awareness, you have a much sharper, clearer and more intense awareness, which is great for learning "light bulbs" and breakthroughs.

You can transform normal awareness into meta-awareness through the practice of mindfulness, which is really all about just paying attention, in the present moment, to whatever is happening, especially in the external or material world.

Meta-Awareness of a swing flaw will "break the spell" that underlies that flaw and eliminate the flaw. Swing flaws tend to repeat because of that lack of awareness.

8

#4029 jsanderso

jsanderso

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 90 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 464028
  • Joined: 04/18/2017
  • Location:Calgary
GolfWRX Likes : 33

Posted 22 July 2017 - 08:41 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 17 July 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

"Meta-Awareness" means the ability of your mind to observe - with a high degree of objective accuracy - what the rest of your mind is attending to, or focusing on.

Normal Awareness lacks that specific aspect, and so has a vague aspect to the quality of the awareness. With Meta-Awareness, you have a much sharper, clearer and more intense awareness, which is great for learning "light bulbs" and breakthroughs.

You can transform normal awareness into meta-awareness through the practice of mindfulness, which is really all about just paying attention, in the present moment, to whatever is happening, especially in the external or material world.

Meta-Awareness of a swing flaw will "break the spell" that underlies that flaw and eliminate the flaw. Swing flaws tend to repeat because of that lack of awareness.
Its great for practice for sure. But when playing I can't seem to turn off my brain and the constant evaluation of what I am doing when on the course and just play. Its probably my biggest hurdle honestly. How does one transition between a practice to a gaming mindset?

9

#4030 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 23 July 2017 - 09:52 AM

View Postjsanderso, on 22 July 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 17 July 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

"Meta-Awareness" means the ability of your mind to observe - with a high degree of objective accuracy - what the rest of your mind is attending to, or focusing on.

Normal Awareness lacks that specific aspect, and so has a vague aspect to the quality of the awareness. With Meta-Awareness, you have a much sharper, clearer and more intense awareness, which is great for learning "light bulbs" and breakthroughs.

You can transform normal awareness into meta-awareness through the practice of mindfulness, which is really all about just paying attention, in the present moment, to whatever is happening, especially in the external or material world.

Meta-Awareness of a swing flaw will "break the spell" that underlies that flaw and eliminate the flaw. Swing flaws tend to repeat because of that lack of awareness. th
Its great for practice for sure. But when playing I can't seem to turn off my brain and the constant evaluation of what I am doing when on the course and just play. Its probably my biggest hurdle honestly. How does one transition between a practice to a gaming mindset?

It starts with clearly understanding how toxic a practice mindset is when playing. The culture of golf evolved - unlike any other sport or movement skill - in a way that mixed together practice and play, to such an extent that it became "normal" to think about the "how do I do it" part, ie the practice mentality.

I maintain that this kind of practice mentality is not even neutral, but rather really, really bad for your game. It is indeed toxic to good golf. It leads to one or more flinches per swing or stroke. A flinch being a mild intensity yip. Why would you use your mind in any way that would likely lead to a flinch?

Once you experience that flinch in a real and concrete way inside your swing - and see how bad the shot outcome is because of it - you will quickly let go of that toxic approach, and start to play golf the way the game was meant to be played, ie so-called subconscious mind golf, or golf where you create states like trust, letting go of control, self-belief and confidence, and playing the game with the swing you have - not the swing you wish you had.

Then there is the Meta-Awareness or mindfulness part of the equation. I have thought long and hard on this issue in my 50 plus years in golf, including over 25 years of teaching the game for a living, and have concluded that the single most important thing for achieving better shots and lower scores is Awareness, ie how you use your mind. Controlling your mental/emotional state starts with a clear awareness of what that state is all about. And training new physical movement patterns is also all about awareness for how your body is moving.  Without that all you have is mere intellectual theory, which does not even "get you in the ballpark."


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#4031 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 23 July 2017 - 04:38 PM

If you want to learn more about Meta-Awareness, just watch the Open today on the back nine, Jordan Spieth is a master of Meta-Awareness. Especially evident in his press conference after his win today, he elaborated at length about what was going through his mind, and how he created that amazing turn around on the back nine to shoot 5 under on the last 5 holes.

Self-belief, understanding that every shot, every circumstance in a round of golf is a totally fluid situation where literally anything is possible. Staying in the present moment, acknowledging the nerves and the stress and the pressure that you are inevitably going to feel, but not letting your mind react too much to that pressure, sticking to your routine and to your chosen focal point.....all really brilliant stuff.

He is a soon to be 24 year old in his body, but with the maturity and wisdom of a 90 year old who lived a happy and successful life.

11

#4032 DaveLeeNC

DaveLeeNC

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,642 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 54590
  • Joined: 04/27/2008
  • Location:Pinehurst, NC
GolfWRX Likes : 454

Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:31 PM

I have been doing a drill that seems to be helpful (to me). And I would be interested in comments from those more experienced than me in in this world of the arm swing illusion.

The drill is simple. Take any golf club and your regular stance. Now do the "proper" arm motion (as defined by JW) with NO/ZERO/NADA body rotation at all. Just the arm pushaway, right arm fold, and wristc0ck back and forth (from the top then back to address) at roughly your normal backswing tempo. Then on maybe the 3rd (or whatever) rep add your body rotation and hit the ball.  Kind of a Jug McSpadden drill but not quite.

I have found this to be quite helpful in overcoming my almost un-overcome-able innate desire to take the club dramatically too far inside on the backswing. And this tendency has all the predictable consequences where if my timing is perfect that day I hit this nice/gentle draw. On more normal days it is a combination of pull hooks, big pushes, and the occasional and really sweet little draw (emphasis on occasional).

Thanks.

dave

Edited by DaveLeeNC, 27 July 2017 - 06:32 PM.


12

#4033 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 27 July 2017 - 08:52 PM

View PostDaveLeeNC, on 27 July 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

I have been doing a drill that seems to be helpful (to me). And I would be interested in comments from those more experienced than me in in this world of the arm swing illusion.

The drill is simple. Take any golf club and your regular stance. Now do the "proper" arm motion (as defined by JW) with NO/ZERO/NADA body rotation at all. Just the arm pushaway, right arm fold, and wristc0ck back and forth (from the top then back to address) at roughly your normal backswing tempo. Then on maybe the 3rd (or whatever) rep add your body rotation and hit the ball.  Kind of a Jug McSpadden drill but not quite.

I have found this to be quite helpful in overcoming my almost un-overcome-able innate desire to take the club dramatically too far inside on the backswing. And this tendency has all the predictable consequences where if my timing is perfect that day I hit this nice/gentle draw. On more normal days it is a combination of pull hooks, big pushes, and the occasional and really sweet little draw (emphasis on occasional).

Thanks.

dave

Hi Dave - the drill you described is indeed one of the many asi drills we use in our instruction programs. It is based on the concept that you have two main things happening at the same time - and doing one will in no way make the other happen. Two independent movements happening simultaneously. The Pivot is movement one, the upper arms pushaway, right arm fold and wrist c0ck/hinge is movement two. I usually have my student do three of the arm/wrist movements with zero Pivot, and then on the fourth attempt blend in the Pivot.

One of the really toxic flaws of traditional swing theory is that doing one of those vital movements will indeed make the other one happen - if only that were true! Golf would be a whole lot easier!  The Arms teachers will tell you to "just swing your arms" and the proper Pivot will be a reaction that arm swinging motion. The body teachers will tell you to "just pivot" and the backswing pivot will make the arms and wrists behave properly. The empirical evidence is overwhelming, and I am not kidding, that both of those basic premises are totally false.  

The ego mind wants simple solutions to complex problems, and that desire to find a short cut or magic move, to take the coordination out of the golf swing, actually makes the swing more difficult to do well.  And causes a lot of bad golf shots!

You can train yourself to do both motions simultaneously, and that effort will really pay off - much better golf shots due to a much better Top of backswing position.

13

#4034 dog flog

dog flog

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,175 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 310867
  • Joined: 04/24/2014
  • Location:Toronto, Ontariariario
GolfWRX Likes : 792

Posted 28 July 2017 - 01:07 AM

I like listening to  Sean Clements describing the back swing as a toss. I think most people think of it as a pulling-around action. Most golfers end up getting too flat at the top and come over the top to compensate. Although you have a more physics oriented way of describing the causes and remedies and Sean is a storyteller and metaphorical wizard, you both look fantastic at the top of the back swing. If there was one critique of your (I've only seen the free ones.) vids,  (You have a great swing, no doubting that.) - it would be simply that people want to see a good striker strike some balls, so I think you should hit more balls while instructing. I know, I'm being silly but sometimes I do roll silly. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
Hit 'em hard, they'll land somewhere.

14

#4035 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 28 July 2017 - 12:16 PM

View Postdog flog, on 28 July 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

I like listening to  Sean Clements describing the back swing as a toss. I think most people think of it as a pulling-around action. Most golfers end up getting too flat at the top and come over the top to compensate. Although you have a more physics oriented way of describing the causes and remedies and Sean is a storyteller and metaphorical wizard, you both look fantastic at the top of the back swing. If there was one critique of your (I've only seen the free ones.) vids,  (You have a great swing, no doubting that.) - it would be simply that people want to see a good striker strike some balls, so I think you should hit more balls while instructing. I know, I'm being silly but sometimes I do roll silly. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

I like the word "sling" to describe a proper back swing. The first segment of our new Module Six video: The Six Swing Segments and the Integration of Mechanics (which will be up on our site soon) is devoted to that concept, actually both back and forward swings.

It is a simple Big Picture concept that can work on the golf course, as long you do it from Feel Channel - and not the two thinking channels of visual and auditory.

Your Pivot "slings" the arms Triangle (and the club by extension) on the backswing and the Pivot "slings" the arms Triangle and club on the forward swing.


15

#4036 Kiwi2

Kiwi2

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,241 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117587
  • Joined: 11/16/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 262

Posted 30 July 2017 - 04:42 PM



16

#4037 DaveLeeNC

DaveLeeNC

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,642 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 54590
  • Joined: 04/27/2008
  • Location:Pinehurst, NC
GolfWRX Likes : 454

Posted 30 July 2017 - 07:37 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 28 July 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

View Postdog flog, on 28 July 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

I like listening to  Sean Clements describing the back swing as a toss. I think most people think of it as a pulling-around action. Most golfers end up getting too flat at the top and come over the top to compensate. Although you have a more physics oriented way of describing the causes and remedies and Sean is a storyteller and metaphorical wizard, you both look fantastic at the top of the back swing. If there was one critique of your (I've only seen the free ones.) vids,  (You have a great swing, no doubting that.) - it would be simply that people want to see a good striker strike some balls, so I think you should hit more balls while instructing. I know, I'm being silly but sometimes I do roll silly. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

I like the word "sling" to describe a proper back swing. The first segment of our new Module Six video: The Six Swing Segments and the Integration of Mechanics (which will be up on our site soon) is devoted to that concept, actually both back and forward swings.

It is a simple Big Picture concept that can work on the golf course, as long you do it from Feel Channel - and not the two thinking channels of visual and auditory.

Your Pivot "slings" the arms Triangle (and the club by extension) on the backswing and the Pivot "slings" the arms Triangle and club on the forward swing.

FWIW, a guy named David Lee (no relationship, BTW) has a golf system he calls "Gravity Golf". He refers to this process as "the heave". And he definitely states that part of what this does is to "separate the arms from the body".

dave

17

#4038 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:02 PM

View PostDaveLeeNC, on 30 July 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 28 July 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

View Postdog flog, on 28 July 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

I like listening to  Sean Clements describing the back swing as a toss. I think most people think of it as a pulling-around action. Most golfers end up getting too flat at the top and come over the top to compensate. Although you have a more physics oriented way of describing the causes and remedies and Sean is a storyteller and metaphorical wizard, you both look fantastic at the top of the back swing. If there was one critique of your (I've only seen the free ones.) vids,  (You have a great swing, no doubting that.) - it would be simply that people want to see a good striker strike some balls, so I think you should hit more balls while instructing. I know, I'm being silly but sometimes I do roll silly. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

I like the word "sling" to describe a proper back swing. The first segment of our new Module Six video: The Six Swing Segments and the Integration of Mechanics (which will be up on our site soon) is devoted to that concept, actually both back and forward swings.

It is a simple Big Picture concept that can work on the golf course, as long you do it from Feel Channel - and not the two thinking channels of visual and auditory.

Your Pivot "slings" the arms Triangle (and the club by extension) on the backswing and the Pivot "slings" the arms Triangle and club on the forward swing.

FWIW, a guy named David Lee (no relationship, BTW) has a golf system he calls "Gravity Golf". He refers to this process as "the heave". And he definitely states that part of what this does is to "separate the arms from the body".

dave

I am familiar with the Gravity Golf system, actually had a lesson from one of David Lee's assistants back in the late 90's.

"Heave" is another great descriptor what a good backswing feels like.  Helps to engage the Core, which is a really, really important thing in the golf swing.

One of the tough things about golf is that you are using a tool that so lightweight, kind of like a fly swatter, but the muscles you need to engage in an effective swing are the ones you would use to knock out the bottom row of bricks in a brick wall using a 20lb sledge hammer.

If you engage the fly swatter muscles, you will forever struggle with your ballstriking!

18

#4039 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:33 PM

View PostKiwi2, on 30 July 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:



Thanks, Kiwi!

That trailer is for Module Five on  the mechanics of the Levers and the Release. Two separate videos: one long one at 4 hours viewing time, covers all the essential mechanics of the wrists, forearms and right arm angle (right elbow joint), along with how to create the proper Release.  Topics include Release timing and trigger point, active vs passive Release types (and a hybrid between the two), and Hold Off vs Freewheeling Release types (and a hybrid here also), creating shaft lean with the hinge angle mechanics, how the right arm angle releases properly, forearm roll during Release and it's effects on path and face angle, several drills to cure the very common and destructive early release flaw, and related issues.

A second hour long video devoted to my analysis of the pros and cons of the kinetic chain concept.

Those and several other of the Great Shot!: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video instruction series are available for purchase (download) at www.balancepointgolf.com.

Module Six on the Six Mini-Swing Segments will be up very soon.  Module Seven on Balance around  first part of September.

Module Eight on Tempo, Rhythm and Timing is being edited with a target completion date of around October 21.

Upcoming Videos that are "in the can" which will become available this winter and spring include: three videos on "Mastering the Mental Game: The Art of Shotmaking" and  a video devoted to increasing distance with your driver called "Explosive Power".

We are in the process of taping five videos this summer about the short game: Chipping, Pitching, Wedge Distance Control (60-120 yards), Bunker Shots and Specialty Short Game Shots. Sometime mid-winter of 2018 is our target release date for the first of those videos.

19

#4040 Zizzer

Zizzer

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 430402
  • Joined: 06/25/2016
  • Location:St. Louis
GolfWRX Likes : 0

Posted 02 August 2017 - 07:18 AM

Jim,

Your explanation of trail or for me right arm extensor is stunning in its simplicity, far better illustration than I have been getting from my TGM instructors. They get to the same place but it is a long journey. Add trail shoulder external rotation and flat left wrist and one an smash the ball.

Golfingly yours!


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#4041 JOIslander

JOIslander

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 476954
  • Joined: 07/30/2017
  • Location:Victoria, BC
  • Handicap:10
GolfWRX Likes : 0

Posted 02 August 2017 - 09:53 AM

Jim, I'm blown away. I'm single digit hc but have struggled with an inside takeaway and getting back to square more than I'd like. One view of your explanation and I instantly understand the golf swing! Of course, I'm far from fixed and will need much practice, but wow.

I've just been swinging in  my living room and will be playing later today, but I'm certain my consistency will improve tenfold after this.

Genius.

Updated: I played in a best ball tourney on Wednesday, and I haven't hit my irons for an entire round that good in my life. I was sticking everything. I was 5ft away from a $10,000 hole in one with my 7 iron. All I can think about is playing golf.

Edited by JOIslander, 05 August 2017 - 09:01 AM.


21

#4042 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:17 PM

View PostJOIslander, on 02 August 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

Jim, I'm blown away. I'm single digit hc but have struggled with an inside takeaway and getting back to square more than I'd like. One view of your explanation and I instantly understand the golf swing! Of course, I'm far from fixed and will need much practice, but wow.

I've just been swinging in  my living room and will be playing later today, but I'm certain my consistency will improve tenfold after this.

Genius.

Updated: I played in a best ball tourney on Wednesday, and I haven't hit my irons for an entire round that good in my life. I was sticking everything. I was 5ft away from a $10,000 hole in one with my 7 iron. All I can think about is playing golf.

Great to hear your feedback!  Pretty cool that you are able to breakthrough so quickly.....

My wife would give you a good argument about the "genius" thing though....

22

#4043 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:20 PM

View PostZizzer, on 02 August 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

Jim,

Your explanation of trail or for me right arm extensor is stunning in its simplicity, far better illustration than I have been getting from my TGM instructors. They get to the same place but it is a long journey. Add trail shoulder external rotation and flat left wrist and one an smash the ball.

Golfingly yours!

Thanks, Z!   I think extensor action only makes sense when you have some ability to see through the ASI and also have a clear mental picture of the Triangle and why it is so essential to good ballstriking. Meaning when the ASI is operative in your Swing Map, you are going to activate the right bicep during takeaway, trying to create the Big Circle with your arm motion, instead of your Pivot motion.

23

#4044 Zizzer

Zizzer

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 430402
  • Joined: 06/25/2016
  • Location:St. Louis
GolfWRX Likes : 0

Posted 08 August 2017 - 08:19 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 August 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

View PostZizzer, on 02 August 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

Jim,

Your explanation of trail or for me right arm extensor is stunning in its simplicity, far better illustration than I have been getting from my TGM instructors. They get to the same place but it is a long journey. Add trail shoulder external rotation and flat left wrist and one an smash the ball.

Golfingly yours!

Thanks, Z!   I think extensor action only makes sense when you have some ability to see through the ASI and also have a clear mental picture of the Triangle and why it is so essential to good ballstriking. Meaning when the ASI is operative in your Swing Map, you are going to activate the right bicep during takeaway, trying to create the Big Circle with your arm motion, instead of your Pivot motion.

Jim,

We all travel a different path in learning about golf. In my case, physically I could not play for 17 years until last summer. I decided to start anew, for a lot of reasons, one of which was to judge the state of instruction (what tools like high speed cameras, electrodes, plates, and trackman).

FWIW, I rate state of instruct overall as very poor. It is very simple to setup and swing the club back. It is almost impossible to swing down and not hit OTP or with a strong pull to the left.

The reason is easy to explain. What is seen as a proper backswing includes straightening the trail or right leg, resulting in the right hip being higher than the left. The golfer must now make one or more moves to reverse this situation, so that the lead or left hip becomes higher than the trail or right.

The current approach is to make the left or lead knee go external and then squat. This has to be one of the most difficult effort in sports.

FWIW, I remain unconvinced. Steve Stricker was just interviewed again on keeping the hips level, which means maintaining knee flex. Lee Trevino solved the problem with an extremely open stance.

I have seen a short video where to talk of external left knee bump followed by pelvis moving right at 12:30. Cowen has a ton of European players that are shifting weight from trail or right heel to left ankle, with no movement of the knee until much later.

And, then there are photos of Jordan Speith rolling over his lead or left ankle.

Am trying to read thru your writings here and will be watching your video.

Golfingly yours,

Zizzer

24

#4045 Zizzer

Zizzer

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 430402
  • Joined: 06/25/2016
  • Location:St. Louis
GolfWRX Likes : 0

Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:56 PM

Jim,

Watched your pivot video with great interest. First, it was good to see that you did not advocate straightening of trail or right leg/knee. I was disappointed you did not take up how it is not possible to reverse from left to right tilt unless the right hip has been lowered. Your suggestion of forward tilt moving past address position really got my interest.

Golfingly yours


25

#4046 Tanner25

Tanner25

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,128 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 46356
  • Joined: 01/18/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 266

Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:00 PM

I get the blend of the pushway and turn on the backswing, what do you do on the down swing? Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 09 August 2017 - 09:00 PM.


26

#4047 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:58 PM

View PostTanner25, on 09 August 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

I get the blend of the pushway and turn on the backswing, what do you do on the down swing? Tanner

Backswing is way more complex than just the pushaway and turn. Same with the downswing.

The ideal or model swing has many components. None of them are "things that you do" but rather learned movement patterns to the level of dominant habit.

Not theory - instead, deep insight, then repetitions to make a  habit.

27

#4048 drc68

drc68

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 473942
  • Joined: 07/05/2017
  • Location:CT
GolfWRX Likes : 15

Posted 10 August 2017 - 12:01 PM

As a beginner, my hope is that I can use these concepts to build a good swing from the start, and not have to break 20 years worth of bad habits. Just read through (almost) all of this thread, watched all the videos posted, and it is indeed fascinating.

Not to oversimplify, and not to take the place of an in-person lesson, but would it be accurate to describe a) the takeaway and first part of the backswing as pushing away from the body, in a straight line at a 45-degree angle toward the right, in front of the body, like the right side of a "V" and done in coordination with 45-degrees of pivot, b) the second part of the backswing keeps the left arm straight, and right arm folds while keeping the elbow close to the body, and completing the pivot so the shoulders are perpendicular to the target line; c) the downswing is more of an arm drop along with pivot thrust, whereas instead of a "V" the motion it's more like a "U" in relation to the front of he body, where the moment of impact is before the apex of the "U", and the arms/wrists act passively, being driven by the pivot thrust? Does this sound correct, if oversimplified?

Another thought about lag made me realize that the lag is not a sweeping of the ball side-to-side, as I originally (and incorrectly) thought; it only looks that way because of the pivoting of the body. The lag is actually downward, which is more natural and passive, and the pivoting motion is what creates the "illusion" that it's a sideways motion. Does this sound accurate? I may not have the correct language/terminology to describe what I mean.

I really wish Jim would come to the East Coast!

28

#4049 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 2,850 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1408

Posted 10 August 2017 - 12:12 PM

View Postdrc68, on 10 August 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

As a beginner, my hope is that I can use these concepts to build a good swing from the start, and not have to break 20 years worth of bad habits. Just read through (almost) all of this thread, watched all the videos posted, and it is indeed fascinating.

Not to oversimplify, and not to take the place of an in-person lesson, but would it be accurate to describe a) the takeaway and first part of the backswing as pushing away from the body, in a straight line at a 45-degree angle toward the right, in front of the body, like the right side of a "V" and done in coordination with 45-degrees of pivot, b) the second part of the backswing keeps the left arm straight, and right arm folds while keeping the elbow close to the body, and completing the pivot so the shoulders are perpendicular to the target line; c) the downswing is more of an arm drop along with pivot thrust, whereas instead of a "V" the motion it's more like a "U" in relation to the front of he body, where the moment of impact is before the apex of the "U", and the arms/wrists act passively, being driven by the pivot thrust? Does this sound correct, if oversimplified?

Another thought about lag made me realize that the lag is not a sweeping of the ball side-to-side, as I originally (and incorrectly) thought; it only looks that way because of the pivoting of the body. The lag is actually downward, which is more natural and passive, and the pivoting motion is what creates the "illusion" that it's a sideways motion. Does this sound accurate? I may not have the correct language/terminology to describe what I mean.

I really wish Jim would come to the East Coast!

Yes on all your points, in a Big Picture conceptual way.

Not really an arm drop per se though. The amount of independent arm motion in the downswing is less than the amount executed in the backswing. A really, really important concept that few golfers and even golf teachers understand.  And that small amount of independent arm motion can indeed vary, depending on how actively and how fast you Pivot Thrust. The more open your chest is at impact, the LESS independent arm motion you should have.  The less open your chest at impact, the more independent arm motion is required.

Yes - the wrist c0ck so-called lag angle is released downwards and outwards - not sideways. Pivot moves the clubhead in the horizontal direction. Part of what I call the Wrist Illusion.

Right elbow is not kept "close" to the body on the backswing, it is often too close or too far in poor swings. We want a few inches of space between the right elbow and the ribcage at the Top.

29

#4050 drc68

drc68

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 473942
  • Joined: 07/05/2017
  • Location:CT
GolfWRX Likes : 15

Posted 10 August 2017 - 05:29 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. I'm in awe of the wealth of knowledge and experience you and others share on this forum!


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



5 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 5 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors