Jump to content

Welcome, Guest. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Club face 6 degrees open at impact


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Joey76

Joey76

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 611 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 221541
  • Joined: 01/13/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 95

Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:34 PM

Saw a video after watching one of Monte's and they were saying the club face for a straight shot is open 6 degrees at impact.


I know youtube can be on par with Dr. google when it comes to information but can anyone shed any light on whether this is true or just wiff waff


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

#2 dirthead

dirthead

    Tour Winner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 737 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 188664
  • Joined: 06/25/2012
  • Handicap:2.7
GolfWRX Likes : 203

Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:41 PM

Could be true.  I had a trackman fitting a few months ago and with my driver, the clubface was about 2.5° open with a swing path about 3° right of target line, which produced a draw.  I would say if the clubface is 6° open (to target line) at impact, then the swing path would need to be 6° right of target line to produce a straight shot.  A 6° open clubface with a swing path right down the target line should produce a shot that starts right of the target line with fade spin.  By the way, I'm no expert on ball flight and don't pretend to be, so I'll probably be correct shortly.

Edited by dirthead, 23 April 2013 - 03:42 PM.

Callaway Big Bertha Alpha 10.5
Callaway X2Hot Pro 15
Callaway X2Hot Pro 20 Hybrid
Callaway X Forged 4-PW
Callaway MD2 50,55,60
Cameron SS Laguna 2

#3 Joey76

Joey76

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 611 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 221541
  • Joined: 01/13/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 95

Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:46 PM

heres the vid





#4 nikuk

nikuk

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 153 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 203215
  • Joined: 09/16/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 7

Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

The iron graphics in the video show a baby draw.

#5 Poser

Poser

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,300 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 144057
  • Joined: 10/25/2011
  • Location:NC
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 129

Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:37 PM

That would be a no.  I hit on the trackman a good bit and my ideal numbers for a small draw are


Swing direction: 0-1 degrees
Angle of attack: -4.2
Club path: +3 ish
Face angle: +1.5ish

So if you are hitting down with an iron you would need to be leftward of zero to get the club path to zero out and face would need to be 0 also.


#6 nikuk

nikuk

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 153 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 203215
  • Joined: 09/16/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 7

Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostCartrydge, on 23 April 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

That would be a no.  I hit on the trackman a good bit and my ideal numbers for a small draw are


Swing direction: 0-1 degrees
Angle of attack: -4.2
Club path: +3 ish
Face angle: +1.5ish

So if you are hitting down with an iron you would need to be leftward of zero to get the club path to zero out and face would need to be 0 also.
I was wondering how long it'd be before someone brought in the third axis.

#7 CHARGERS

CHARGERS

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 466 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 34586
  • Joined: 07/14/2007
  • Location:MD
GolfWRX Likes : 41

Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:54 PM

Im sorry but the club face does rotate that much going through  the hitting area

#8 CHARGERS

CHARGERS

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 466 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 34586
  • Joined: 07/14/2007
  • Location:MD
GolfWRX Likes : 41

Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:54 PM

Does NOT

#9 station2station

station2station

    Hall of Fame

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 6,096 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93643
  • Joined: 09/03/2009
  • Handicap:3.5
GolfWRX Likes : 993

Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

Club face rotation has no bearing on shot shape.

(if that's where this was going)

#10 Eag1e

Eag1e

    Tour Winner

  • Jr. Boomers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 870 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94910
  • Joined: 09/21/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 46

Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:07 PM

View Poststation2station, on 23 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Club face rotation has no bearing on shot shape.

(if that's where this was going)

Most recent trackman report shows it does affect it to a small, currently undetermined degree. There was small variation in theoretical results vs actual results that couldn't be accounted for with face/path/aoa/etc.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

#11 HitEmTrue

HitEmTrue

    @HitEmTrue1

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,435 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93756
  • Joined: 09/04/2009
  • Location:North Texas
GolfWRX Likes : 419

Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

View Poststation2station, on 23 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Club face rotation has no bearing on shot shape.

(if that's where this was going)

That's where the video appears to be going...

#12 station2station

station2station

    Hall of Fame

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 6,096 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93643
  • Joined: 09/03/2009
  • Handicap:3.5
GolfWRX Likes : 993

Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostEag1e, on 23 April 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

View Poststation2station, on 23 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Club face rotation has no bearing on shot shape.

(if that's where this was going)

Most recent trackman report shows it does affect it to a small, currently undetermined degree. There was small variation in theoretical results vs actual results that couldn't be accounted for with face/path/aoa/etc.

Face angle is a snapshot at a moment in time.  Rotational movement at impact has no bearing on spin or flight.

I'd like to see your study.

Edited by station2station, 24 April 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#13 Eag1e

Eag1e

    Tour Winner

  • Jr. Boomers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 870 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94910
  • Joined: 09/21/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 46

Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:54 AM

View Poststation2station, on 24 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

View PostEag1e, on 23 April 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

View Poststation2station, on 23 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Club face rotation has no bearing on shot shape.

(if that's where this was going)

Most recent trackman report shows it does affect it to a small, currently undetermined degree. There was small variation in theoretical results vs actual results that couldn't be accounted for with face/path/aoa/etc.

Face angle is a snapshot at a moment in time.  Rotational movement at impact has no bearing on spin or flight.

I'd like to see your study.

http://www.trackman....newsletter9.pdf

Pages 6 and 7

#14 station2station

station2station

    Hall of Fame

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 6,096 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93643
  • Joined: 09/03/2009
  • Handicap:3.5
GolfWRX Likes : 993

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:01 AM

View PostEag1e, on 24 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

View Poststation2station, on 24 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

View PostEag1e, on 23 April 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

View Poststation2station, on 23 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Club face rotation has no bearing on shot shape.

(if that's where this was going)

Most recent trackman report shows it does affect it to a small, currently undetermined degree. There was small variation in theoretical results vs actual results that couldn't be accounted for with face/path/aoa/etc.

Face angle is a snapshot at a moment in time.  Rotational movement at impact has no bearing on spin or flight.

I'd like to see your study.

http://www.trackman....newsletter9.pdf

Pages 6 and 7

cool - i'll check it out!

#15 station2station

station2station

    Hall of Fame

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 6,096 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93643
  • Joined: 09/03/2009
  • Handicap:3.5
GolfWRX Likes : 993

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:07 AM

That's fascinating because the Trackman Maestro and all the gurus in the field have long debunked this theory.  The moment of time on the face can be measured in tenths of milliseconds.  It's hard to imagine that there is an effect.  But evidently the trackman people are thinking it matters to some degree.  Here is the meat:

What we are finding is a rotating club face through impact can create the counter action of the ball to rotate the other way – like a gear – exactly as explained above for off center impact. So it seems highly plausible that club face rotation can have an effect on spin axis. Important for quantifying the effect of the rotating club face through impact is to determine the location of the axis of rotation for the club face. Initial analysis shows that the rotation typically happens around an axis located behind the club face, with the net effect that the ball will have a fade component added to its spin axis.

....
TrackMan’s future research hopes to quantify the significance of club face rotation on the spin axis, to see if club face rotation (closure rate) together with D-Plane and off center impact can fully explain the spin axis.

Edited by station2station, 24 April 2013 - 09:07 AM.


#16 Golfrnut

Golfrnut

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,692 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132818
  • Joined: 07/12/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 288

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:19 AM

I like absolutely nothing about that video.

Yes, the clubface would need to be open to match the swing path(arc with an iron is swinging down and out), but the whole concept he is talking about it being 6 degrees open to the target line is just silly.  When the face path matches the arc, yes absolutely a straitght shot without question, but it's going to be straight to the right of the target line.  Unless of course, you offset this my lining up with a body line left.  Even still, this is heavily depending on the club and the AoA.  He is even showing this to be the case with the driver as well.  If you have a positive AoA and a path traveling left with a open clubface, good luck finding that ball as it slices off the planet.

The guy needs a lesson in ball flight laws and a swift kick in the ding-ding.

Stay away from this...
Taylormade SLDR 9.5 w/ stiff Speeder 57
Callaway 3 Deep 14.5 w/ PXv 6.0
Stage 2 18.5/21.5  rescue w/ Steelfiber
Bridgestone J40 CB 4-PW w/ Steelfiber
Scratch 53/58 wedges w/ Steelfiber i80
Odyssey Protype 2-Ball

#17 TeeAce

TeeAce

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 1,892 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 61680
  • Joined: 07/28/2008
  • Location:Finland
GolfWRX Likes : 105

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:30 AM

View Postnikuk, on 23 April 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostCartrydge, on 23 April 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

That would be a no.  I hit on the trackman a good bit and my ideal numbers for a small draw are


Swing direction: 0-1 degrees
Angle of attack: -4.2
Club path: +3 ish
Face angle: +1.5ish

So if you are hitting down with an iron you would need to be leftward of zero to get the club path to zero out and face would need to be 0 also.
I was wondering how long it'd be before someone brought in the third axis.

Trackman can't see the club face, so it's their numbers and valid only to compare to other trackman numbers, not to make science or tell real face position.

#18 Golfrnut

Golfrnut

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,692 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132818
  • Joined: 07/12/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 288

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostTeeAce, on 24 April 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

View Postnikuk, on 23 April 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostCartrydge, on 23 April 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

That would be a no. I hit on the trackman a good bit and my ideal numbers for a small draw are Swing direction: 0-1 degrees Angle of attack: -4.2 Club path: +3 ish Face angle: +1.5ish So if you are hitting down with an iron you would need to be leftward of zero to get the club path to zero out and face would need to be 0 also.
I was wondering how long it'd be before someone brought in the third axis.
Trackman can't see the club face, so it's their numbers and valid only to compare to other trackman numbers, not to make science or tell real face position.


Perhaps in the case of numbers, yes.  And yes, the face angle is not measured, but with pretty good accuracy.  However, it is well known that the path number has to be higher than the face angle to produce a draw.  The opposite exists for a fade.

The video in question has it completely wrong.
Taylormade SLDR 9.5 w/ stiff Speeder 57
Callaway 3 Deep 14.5 w/ PXv 6.0
Stage 2 18.5/21.5  rescue w/ Steelfiber
Bridgestone J40 CB 4-PW w/ Steelfiber
Scratch 53/58 wedges w/ Steelfiber i80
Odyssey Protype 2-Ball

#19 PutterKilledTheDream

PutterKilledTheDream

    " it's definitely your spin loft bro..."

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,404 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 204131
  • Joined: 09/22/2012
  • Location:San Diego
GolfWRX Likes : 237

Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:41 AM

View Poststation2station, on 24 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

View PostEag1e, on 23 April 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

View Poststation2station, on 23 April 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Club face rotation has no bearing on shot shape.

(if that's where this was going)

Most recent trackman report shows it does affect it to a small, currently undetermined degree. There was small variation in theoretical results vs actual results that couldn't be accounted for with face/path/aoa/etc.

Face angle is a snapshot at a moment in time.  Rotational movement at impact has no bearing on spin or flight.

I'd like to see your study.
Look at the most recent TrackMan newsletter. The 'rate of closure' is how fast the face rotates through the impact interval. Certain swing styles show that at the moment of initial contact until maximum compression there can be a change to the value of the face angle. The result is created is a fade bias spin axis on the ball very similar to gear effect. Its pretty minimal however, and based primarily on the player. Trackman's explaination of certain ball flight parameters that can't be explained by D-Plane or gear effect. This was determined by phantom cameras, not TrackMan.

Edited by PutterKilledTheDream, 24 April 2013 - 11:45 AM.


#20 Stretch

Stretch

    #golfwrxproblems

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,224 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 106949
  • Joined: 04/26/2010
  • Location:Cape Town
GolfWRX Likes : 227

Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

Also, remember that off-center hits both change the expected (i.e. d-plane predicted) curvature of the ball due to gear effect and skew the reported face angle.​ It's pretty common to see a nice tight draw ball flight and then look at the numbers on the box and the face is maybe two degrees open to the path. Huh? Well what happened was the ball was slightly out toward the toe and that both acted to tilt the spin axis more to the left and deflect the face more to the right (or I guess you could say to retard the rate of closure) between impact and max deformation, as PKTD notes above.

But, yeah, the video is crap. If your club face is six degrees open at impact (again, assuming center contact), the ball is always going to take off right of your target line to an extent which will vary depending on your spin loft. You can hit it straight right from there, sure, or you can curve it either way. But you cannot hit it straight down the target line.

Edited by Stretch, 24 April 2013 - 11:04 AM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

#21 HitEmTrue

HitEmTrue

    @HitEmTrue1

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,435 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93756
  • Joined: 09/04/2009
  • Location:North Texas
GolfWRX Likes : 419

Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 24 April 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Certain swing styles show that at the moment of initial contact until maximum compression there can be a change to the value of the face angle. The result is created is a fade bias spin axis on the ball very similar to gear effect.

Quite interesting that it creates a (small) fade bias, rather than a draw bias...considering that over the years there have been those that say that to hit a draw that the face needs to be closing DURING impact (Johnny Miller comes to mind).



#22 Golfrnut

Golfrnut

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,692 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132818
  • Joined: 07/12/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 288

Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:52 AM

There are many that loathe those like Johnny Miller for this exact same reason.  It really screws the guy who hears that on the weekend and then tries to mimic it on the course.
Taylormade SLDR 9.5 w/ stiff Speeder 57
Callaway 3 Deep 14.5 w/ PXv 6.0
Stage 2 18.5/21.5  rescue w/ Steelfiber
Bridgestone J40 CB 4-PW w/ Steelfiber
Scratch 53/58 wedges w/ Steelfiber i80
Odyssey Protype 2-Ball




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors