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How does lie angle affect ball flight


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#1 steenboatmd

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Posted 30 March 2007 - 11:53 PM

I'm 6ft.4in. and every time I've been fitted for clubs based on wrist floor measurements, I get put into a setup that's at least 2 deg. upright, and everytime I struggle with pushes and push fades.  I was starting to think I had a swing flaw creeping in, but I hit my playing partner's standard spec mp-60's with PX flighted and I hit baby draw's that start on line.  

Is it the upright lie that is causing a push, making me stand taller or preventing my wrists from working through impact properly?

I have no idea.  I always thought too upright was supposed to cause hooks d/t heel contacting ground, but I get the rights.

What's the deal?


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#2 threeaces

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 01:31 AM

Actually a flatter lie will promote a draw because it will make you swing on a flatter plane, like around your body as apposed to swinging more upright or hands higher over your shoulders. You are pretty tall and I would think 2 degrees upright would be okay but it sounds like normal lie clubs are what you need. Unless you have a swing problem or have long arms.

#3 hbear

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 03:15 AM

Actually a flat lie leads to pushes, where as an upright lie leads to pulls.
E.g. Lie is too flat, toe of club catches the ground on contact leaving the face open (push and fade)...and too upright leads to the heel catching promoting a closing of the clubface (pull and draw)

Your best bet would be to grab a lie board (or something similar) take it to the range and hit some ball with your "natural" swing.
Dynamic fiting is ALWAYS better than static....static is just to give you a starting point.
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#4 preston08

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 03:28 AM

Both posters are right. A flat lie can lead to either a fade/push or a draw... depending on whether or not you make compensations for it.

Dynamic fitting is a really good idea. Static fitting doesn't take into account your posture or the way you swing.

#5 steenboatmd

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 10:51 AM

Thanks guys,

I kinda figured either or.  It seems like for me, my hands want to work into impact higher with the upright clubs, maybe subconsciously so I don't stick the heel in the ground. I hit it off the sweetspot, but it just feels like I'm fighting the release.  I went back and forth between reg. l/l/l and mine and it was ridiculous.....straight/right/straight/right...etc.

Thanks for the input.

One more question.  Again I've heard that undersized grips are supposed to cause hooks,  but again, my grips are pencil thin on this set of clubs and it just makes me feel like hands are fighting each other.  Can grossly undersized grips lead to improper release, or only over-release?

-B


#6 mac94

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 01:30 PM

A couple common myths posted so far. Upright lies lead to pulls, but NOT because the heel catches the ground and causes the toe to close. They lead to pulls because when the clubface is placed in t too upright lie, the face of the club AUTOMATICALLY points left of the target. It has nothing to do with the heel catching the gorund. The opposite is true of too flat lie. A magnetic lie demonstrator will show this.

Also, grip size has no real impact of pulling of pushing. Find the grip size that is most comfortable for you and tha allows you to take a relaxed, easy grip on the club.

#7 hbear

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 04:57 PM

View Postmac94, on Mar 31 2007, 02:30 PM, said:

A couple common myths posted so far. Upright lies lead to pulls, but NOT because the heel catches the ground and causes the toe to close. They lead to pulls because when the clubface is placed in t too upright lie, the face of the club AUTOMATICALLY points left of the target. It has nothing to do with the heel catching the gorund. The opposite is true of too flat lie. A magnetic lie demonstrator will show this.

This can be demonstrated with a magnetic lie detector...but one can never discount actual impact mechanics...
If the divot with an upright club is heel deep than it indeed does close the face of the club.
It's physics.  Heel of club takes more resistance than toe...toe closes faster - closed face.
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#8 mac94

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 08:04 PM

Wishon himself strongly disagrees. By the time you take the divot, the ball is gone anyway.

#9 steenboatmd

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 08:19 PM

If it's so simple mac94 than why do I hit my overlenght 2* upright irons with a bit of push fade, and standard lie and length irons dead on line?  Same shaft and swingweight.

I would love to hit a pull right now!

#10 mac94

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Posted 31 March 2007 - 08:30 PM

No clue. Obviously you are making two different swings with them.  Maybe the extra length is keeping you from relesing the clubface?


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#11 schwanman

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 10:50 PM

This can be demonstrated with a magnetic lie detector...but one can never discount actual impact mechanics...
If the divot with an upright club is heel deep than it indeed does close the face of the club.
It's physics. Heel of club takes more resistance than toe...toe closes faster - closed face.



This may be true if you are making terrible contact and hitting everything fat but if you are hitting the ball before the ground as you should then an upright lie angle will cause a ball to go left and and a flat lie angle will cause the ball to go right.  You're right about it being physics - the direction the clubface points is the direction the ball is going to go.  Upright lie=face points left, flat lie=face points right.

#12 akcchan

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 11:54 PM

We all agree that Dynamic testing with a lie board is better than a static test but I find examining the sole of the irons after a round even more revealing (real course condition with course swing). They tell you exactly where your clubs are hitting the ground (towards the heel or the toe etc.) and whether your club face at the moment of impact (or just after) is open or close. This works for me because my irons are chromed, it might be tough for the tumble finish as used by Ping.

My 2 cents. :russian_roulette:

#13 We B Clubbin

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 03:06 AM

A Dynamic Test or the method suggested by akcchan are both good. But, unless you have the adjustment made by someone who is qualified to bend irons having the information does not help improve your shot.

May the course be with you!

#14 mthorn316

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:38 PM

Lie angles really don't mean a thing unless you can repeat what you are doing. Also lie boards lie! If you are not able to see divots and ball flight then what good is fitting!

Edited by mthorn316, 13 January 2010 - 06:39 PM.


#15 jkrew1994

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:08 PM

View Postmac94, on 31 March 2007 - 01:30 PM, said:

A couple common myths posted so far. Upright lies lead to pulls, but NOT because the heel catches the ground and causes the toe to close. They lead to pulls because when the clubface is placed in t too upright lie, the face of the club AUTOMATICALLY points left of the target. It has nothing to do with the heel catching the gorund. The opposite is true of too flat lie. A magnetic lie demonstrator will show this.

Also, grip size has no real impact of pulling of pushing. Find the grip size that is most comfortable for you and tha allows you to take a relaxed, easy grip on the club.

LOVE THIS!


#16 jabroni23

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:31 PM

View Postmac94, on 31 March 2007 - 01:30 PM, said:

A couple common myths posted so far. Upright lies lead to pulls, but NOT because the heel catches the ground and causes the toe to close. They lead to pulls because when the clubface is placed in t too upright lie, the face of the club AUTOMATICALLY points left of the target. It has nothing to do with the heel catching the gorund. The opposite is true of too flat lie. A magnetic lie demonstrator will show this.

Also, grip size has no real impact of pulling of pushing. Find the grip size that is most comfortable for you and tha allows you to take a relaxed, easy grip on the club.

Agreed.  Grab any club, put it in front of you as you would normally address it, then make the shaft more upright.  You'll see your face angle close and point more left.
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#17 sandiegonative

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 05:05 PM

http://www.taylormad...lubfitting.aspx

Go to the "What is Lie angle and what Lie angle do I need?" Section. The pictures show you what is happening and it states, "A club which is too upright for the golfer will hit the ground with the heel of the club, causing the clubface to close and resulting in a pull or hook (for right-handed players.) A club which is too flat will hit the ground with the toe of the club causing the clubface to open and resulting in a push or slice (for right-handed players.)"

Don't shoot the messenger. I've heard both sides of the argument regarding lie angle and its effect on turf interaction. Some say it doesn't matter and others say it does.  Personally, I think lie angle does effect turf interaction and one's ability to open and/or close the club face. From my personal experience, fitted for PING i20 Blue dot (+0.75 upright), I have a hard time hitting fades and my miss is always a hook.

#18 greens hit

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 05:40 PM

View Postjabroni23, on 11 May 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

View Postmac94, on 31 March 2007 - 01:30 PM, said:

A couple common myths posted so far. Upright lies lead to pulls, but NOT because the heel catches the ground and causes the toe to close. They lead to pulls because when the clubface is placed in t too upright lie, the face of the club AUTOMATICALLY points left of the target. It has nothing to do with the heel catching the gorund. The opposite is true of too flat lie. A magnetic lie demonstrator will show this.

Also, grip size has no real impact of pulling of pushing. Find the grip size that is most comfortable for you and tha allows you to take a relaxed, easy grip on the club.

Agreed.  Grab any club, put it in front of you as you would normally address it, then make the shaft more upright.  You'll see your face angle close and point more left.

Wrong.  Lie gets flatter and face will point more right.

#19 Nick West

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

I think everybody might be missing one important fact here...and that is that his fitting process involved his clubs being bent 2 degrees upright from standard, but that makes them neutral as far as he is concerned....they aren't actually upright...I mean, they are,...but to him, they are now neutral.....which means everything being discussed here about how lie affects shot dispersion is a moot point.

#20 TLT_Dan

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

View Poststeenboatmd, on 30 March 2007 - 11:53 PM, said:

I'm 6ft.4in. and every time I've been fitted for clubs based on wrist floor measurements, I get put into a setup that's at least 2 deg. upright, and everytime I struggle with pushes and push fades.  I was starting to think I had a swing flaw creeping in, but I hit my playing partner's standard spec mp-60's with PX flighted and I hit baby draw's that start on line.  

Is it the upright lie that is causing a push, making me stand taller or preventing my wrists from working through impact properly?

I have no idea.  I always thought too upright was supposed to cause hooks d/t heel contacting ground, but I get the rights.

What's the deal?

Your clubs are 2 upright and 1/2 long which means they are actually effectively playing 3 degree up. The combination just may be too extreme - as you said - "the upright lie that is causing a push, making me stand taller" .

I would try flattening 1 club 1 degree and see if this helps. Then maybe 2 degree (which puts you back to standard lie' but with the added 1/2 inch. See what you like.

With your height I would expect your lie to be a little upright and play a slightly longer than standard club - but the test will help you understand.

Your goal should be to stand athetically - swinging on a plane that suits your game. Incorrect length and lie will cause a number of issues and sometimes odd results as compensations in your swing are being introduced.

Edited by TLT_Dan, 11 May 2012 - 08:26 PM.


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#21 Hstead

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:40 PM

I am not 6'4", but rather 6'1" with very wide shoulders and I play 1/2" long and 2* upright.  I have been fit by the TM tour van years ago with the reflectors on the shafts and all over my etc and by my pro with the Henry Griffitts cart.  

It is easier to think of it this way.  If the ball is above your feet, where does the face aim?  If the ball is below your feet where does the face aim?  That is exactly the same reason a club that is too flat or too upright for a player flies left or right.  The ball is gone before the club makes contact with the ground unless you are chunking the piss out of it.  Take your 7 iron, raise it three feet off the ground and tell me where the face aims?  If you were that short, and had to swing on that plane, the ball would go dead left because the face is pointing left whether you take a divot or hit it off a tee.
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#22 mogc60

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:24 AM

The standard fitting is only a barometer to start the fitting process.  I also get FIT at +1/2, but it justs feels way too long for me and I can't get comfortable in my setup at that length.  I play clubs at standard length and 1 up ( 65* lie pw)  and this feels comforable to me and I can hit the shots I want to hit.  I like the suggestion of flattening the lie 1 degree and then see if it feels better to you.  1 degree is alot and it could totally change the way the club looks and feels to you.

#23 miguelj20

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

I have a question on this topic as well....I'm 5'6'' and considering having my lie angle flattened 2 degrees? Any recommendations on whether or not this is a good idea?

#24 rbhan12

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:59 PM

find my big post about halfway down the page.

http://www.golfwrx.c...lly-noticeable/

basically imagine hitting a golf ball off of a wall and visualize the direction that it goes. that's an extreme example, however when there's a difference in result between the extreme example and the neutral example, there must be a correlation between the two conditions that impact the result.

#25 dcr147

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 06:02 PM

View Poststeenboatmd, on 30 March 2007 - 11:53 PM, said:

I'm 6ft.4in. and every time I've been fitted for clubs based on wrist floor measurements, I get put into a setup that's at least 2 deg. upright, and everytime I struggle with pushes and push fades.  I was starting to think I had a swing flaw creeping in, but I hit my playing partner's standard spec mp-60's with PX flighted and I hit baby draw's that start on line.  

Is it the upright lie that is causing a push, making me stand taller or preventing my wrists from working through impact properly?

I have no idea.  I always thought too upright was supposed to cause hooks d/t heel contacting ground, but I get the rights.

What's the deal?
It's a combo of lie angle and shaft length. Measure you friends stix and have yours adjusted to those specs if that's the ball flight you want.


#26 nikewalt

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:42 AM

Every manufacturer has a different standard even within club lines. Standard on an MP60 is 61* on a 6iron. What irons are you playing?

#27 cxx

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:06 AM

I think this is pretty simple.  Assuming you hit the ball with the leading edge aligned in the direction you want to go, with too upright you get toe up at impact and the loft of the club tilts towards the heel.  This has two effects, the loft of the club starts the ball to the left (right hand golfer) and the spin axis tilts left.  Spin axis is aligned with the angle of the loft, two degress upright = spin axis two degress left.  So the ball starts left and curves further left.

You can compensate with your swing, but that gets to be hard work.

#28 kloyd0306

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:45 PM

Re the discussion of turf grabbing the heel or toe which therefore closes or opens the face: If you believe that turf grabbing is responsible for altering the face angle, then striking the ball off a tee (no turf) would mean straight shots?

Think about it.........

#29 Howard Jones

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:46 PM

Static fitting is useless for lie angles, so is a lie board, because most folks out there dont know how to read impact marks correctly, and this photo shows why. Its NOT always correct that a impact against the toe side of the sole means a lie to flat. A impact on the center can be all wrong too.
It depends on path and face angle at impact, so i dont use a lie board at all, but my Trackman, so i know how the club head was delivered to the ball

Way to many players get "fittet" to lie a angle way to upright because the fitter dont read the impact marks correct. This is ONLY a illustration ive made to show how the impact marks can be, so you can follow my point.

Lie angle tape.PNG

Go to Jeff Summits PDF for impact labels on both face and sole for more info
http://blog.hirekogo...l_lowres_v2.pdf

Edited by Howard Jones, 18 January 2014 - 05:48 PM.


#30 savoyspecial13

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 03:52 PM

Howard
Do you recommend checking lies for each club or go off of one mid iron check and half degree each from there?

Edit
Also this method vs vert line on ball?  This impact is after ball is gone.  Line is lie on impact

Edited by savoyspecial13, 19 January 2014 - 03:56 PM.


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