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R1 vs SFTP 1.0 swingweight - wow!


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#1 yahtzee

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:46 AM

Have been testing these two clubs against each other. The R1 performed well but just didnt feel like the SFTP. Took it to my fitter and swingweight of SFTP is D2 and the R1 is D9. No wonder. Specs are:

SFTP 1.0 with TP HD6 shaft
R1 with HD6 shaft (maroon real vers)
Same length
Same grip
Same # of wraps
Stock weights in R1 head

How do I get R1 closer to D2 and why would it be so heavy?


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#2 dccbryan

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:51 AM

Posted a while back about the 205 gram headweight of the R1 with standard 1 and 10 gram weights.....no responses.  I put the Kiyoshi White from my R1 V2 in a retail head and the swingweight was E1.  I guess you should put 1 gram weights in or shorten the shaft to 44.25".  Doesn't make much sense to me.
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P.S.  I guess people are not only playing the wrong loft in their driver, but they are too light as well :)

Edited by dccbryan, 19 March 2013 - 10:52 AM.


#3 mtgjr

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:18 AM

I'm curious about the results of your testing.  Similar to you, I tried to replace my SFTP 1.0 w/HD6 with an R11S w/HD6 (also the red real version).  I just couldn't get anywhere near the distance out of the R11s so I wound up selling it.  While the R11S wasn't quite as heavy as your R1, the SW was about D6 at 45", compared to my SFTP 1.0 at around D3.  And that's after putting a strip of lead tape on the SFTP head to get it back to D3 after cutting it down to 45" took the SW down to D0.

Now I'm testing a newly acquired Rapture V2 w/Blueboard against the SFTP 1.0.  So far, a much closer competition.  They are both really sweet sticks!

Edited by mtgjr, 19 March 2013 - 11:20 AM.

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#4 yahtzee

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:39 AM

Put that secret grip on and that brought it down to D2. Problem is, the club is now 96g heavier. Not sure how much effect that will have on ss and overall distance.

#5 mosesgolf

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:04 PM

I noticed that too.  Take out the 10g weight and put in a 1g weight.  That should help close to 5 sw points.

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#6 yahtzee

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

View Postmosesgolf, on 19 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I noticed that too.  Take out the 10g weight and put in a 1g weight.  That should help close to 5 sw points.

9g will shave of 5pts?

#7 BirdieBob

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:45 PM

View Postyahtzee, on 19 March 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

View Postmosesgolf, on 19 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I noticed that too.  Take out the 10g weight and put in a 1g weight.  That should help close to 5 sw points.

9g will shave of 5pts?

2g = 1 SW point....approximately.

The SW of the R1 at 45.5" is listed by TM at D4.
Perhaps custom shafts changes that?

If it is too high, then either change weight and see if the ball flight is ok.
Otherwise, shorter will work.... 1/2" less = - 3 SW points.



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#8 Rodabodem

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:54 PM

so, my r11s is an E0 not including the shaft weight... My shaft is 80grams. So what's the swingweight?
That ball gave the wind the FINGER!

#9 yahtzee

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:30 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 19 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

View Postyahtzee, on 19 March 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

View Postmosesgolf, on 19 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I noticed that too.  Take out the 10g weight and put in a 1g weight.  That should help close to 5 sw points.

9g will shave of 5pts?

2g = 1 SW point....approximately.

The SW of the R1 at 45.5" is listed by TM at D4.
Perhaps custom shafts changes that?

If it is too high, then either change weight and see if the ball flight is ok.
Otherwise, shorter will work.... 1/2" less = - 3 SW points.

I added a grip that was 96g. That brought it down to D2. What am I missing here? You're saying 96g of weight should have shaved 48 sw pts. Not following you.

#10 G-Bone

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:34 PM

The R1 is a heavy head, that's for sure. I lost almost 3 mph of swing speed with R1 versus Stage 2. R1 gave me a bit better smash factor (perhaps the extra mass), but Stage 2 was much better overall. For me Stage 2 is much more comparable to SFTP than R1.

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#11 jonn443

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:04 PM

Still trying to find a new driver that will give my  sftp 1.0 a run, the covert, rfe, and xhot are some contenders...any input?

#12 TMBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:45 AM

View Postyahtzee, on 19 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Have been testing these two clubs against each other. The R1 performed well but just didnt feel like the SFTP. Took it to my fitter and swingweight of SFTP is D2 and the R1 is D9. No wonder. Specs are:

SFTP 1.0 with TP HD6 shaft
R1 with HD6 shaft (maroon real vers)
Same length
Same grip
Same # of wraps
Stock weights in R1 head

How do I get R1 closer to D2 and why would it be so heavy?

Burner heads were always very light, just like Ping heads.....lighter heads, longer shafts. Most were about 196-198 grams

Since the R11 head came out, TM heads in the FCT line up have been heavier then the past FCT heads. I found that the R11 was the heaviest, the the R1 and then the R11s

As for your question...there is only one place to look at and that would be the shaft since yo have a real deal against a TM Graphic version. The good news is that the R1 has MWT and all it takes is a replacement weight.

I would suggest a slightly shorter R1 length and or trying a 1-4 gram set up first and NOT worry about getting it to match the SF exacly since they are not exactly the same to start with. No reason why the R1 should not be tried at a D-3 o D-4 SW and go from there.

I have a 1-4 in my R11 and 1-6 in my R1 and a 1-8 in my R11s

#13 drgolfaholic

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:51 AM

I notice that too.  Mine with a Diamana + D72 came out D9 as well.  I figure trim shaft down to 45" and drop the 10g wt for a lighter version will make it close but not D2.


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#14 stebed

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:11 AM

dropped the 10 g weight and replaced it with a 6g and play at 45.5 D4 with the 3 shafts I have on trial.

#15 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:39 PM

View Postyahtzee, on 19 March 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

View PostBirdieBob, on 19 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

View Postyahtzee, on 19 March 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

View Postmosesgolf, on 19 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I noticed that too.  Take out the 10g weight and put in a 1g weight.  That should help close to 5 sw points.

9g will shave of 5pts?

2g = 1 SW point....approximately.

The SW of the R1 at 45.5" is listed by TM at D4.
Perhaps custom shafts changes that?

If it is too high, then either change weight and see if the ball flight is ok.
Otherwise, shorter will work.... 1/2" less = - 3 SW points.

I added a grip that was 96g. That brought it down to D2. What am I missing here? You're saying 96g of weight should have shaved 48 sw pts. Not following you.


When I refer to reducing weight, that means in the driver head.  That is where the head feel, ie swingweight is at with a driver.

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#16 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:45 PM

View PostG-Bone, on 19 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

The R1 is a heavy head, that's for sure. I lost almost 3 mph of swing speed with R1 versus Stage 2. R1 gave me a bit better smash factor (perhaps the extra mass), but Stage 2 was much better overall. For me Stage 2 is much more comparable to SFTP than R1.

The RBZ Stage 2 at 46" is a 1/2" longer than the R1.  I'd be surprised if the total weight of it is lighter than the R1, but I don't have the numbers.  Swingweight of the R1 is D4 stock compared to D6 for the stock RBZ S2...heavier feel in RBZ.

Edited by BirdieBob, 20 March 2013 - 02:45 PM.

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#17 G-Bone

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

View PostG-Bone, on 19 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

The R1 is a heavy head, that's for sure. I lost almost 3 mph of swing speed with R1 versus Stage 2. R1 gave me a bit better smash factor (perhaps the extra mass), but Stage 2 was much better overall. For me Stage 2 is much more comparable to SFTP than R1.

The RBZ Stage 2 at 46" is a 1/2" longer than the R1.  I'd be surprised if the total weight of it is lighter than the R1, but I don't have the numbers.  Swingweight of the R1 is D4 stock compared to D6 for the stock RBZ S2...heavier feel in RBZ.

According to Golf Magazine, the R1 weighs 330 grams and the Stage 2 weighs 300, thats a fair amount in my book.
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#18 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

View PostG-Bone, on 20 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

View PostG-Bone, on 19 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

The R1 is a heavy head, that's for sure. I lost almost 3 mph of swing speed with R1 versus Stage 2. R1 gave me a bit better smash factor (perhaps the extra mass), but Stage 2 was much better overall. For me Stage 2 is much more comparable to SFTP than R1.

The RBZ Stage 2 at 46" is a 1/2" longer than the R1.  I'd be surprised if the total weight of it is lighter than the R1, but I don't have the numbers.  Swingweight of the R1 is D4 stock compared to D6 for the stock RBZ S2...heavier feel in RBZ.

According to Golf Magazine, the R1 weighs 330 grams and the Stage 2 weighs 300, thats a fair amount in my book.

With the same shaft?  That is important also.  When comparing weights one needs to look at head weight as the comparison.  Doubt based upon swingweight that there is much difference between the head weights.
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#19 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

View PostRodabodem, on 19 March 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

so, my r11s is an E0 not including the shaft weight... My shaft is 80grams. So what's the swingweight?

You will need to shaft the head, put on the grip and then check swingweight.  Length of the driver is very important in that determination.
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#20 G-Bone

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

View PostG-Bone, on 20 March 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

View PostG-Bone, on 19 March 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

The R1 is a heavy head, that's for sure. I lost almost 3 mph of swing speed with R1 versus Stage 2. R1 gave me a bit better smash factor (perhaps the extra mass), but Stage 2 was much better overall. For me Stage 2 is much more comparable to SFTP than R1.

The RBZ Stage 2 at 46" is a 1/2" longer than the R1.  I'd be surprised if the total weight of it is lighter than the R1, but I don't have the numbers.  Swingweight of the R1 is D4 stock compared to D6 for the stock RBZ S2...heavier feel in RBZ.

According to Golf Magazine, the R1 weighs 330 grams and the Stage 2 weighs 300, thats a fair amount in my book.

With the same shaft?  That is important also.  When comparing weights one needs to look at head weight as the comparison.  Doubt based upon swingweight that there is much difference between the head weights.

Again, according to Golf Magazine, that is both with respective stock shafts.

I absolutely believe there can be that large of a weight difference.  I spent a lot of time hitting both and it was blatantly obvious that the R1 was considerably heavier.

Not to mention we all now know that the R1 V2 is a lighter club head, why, because they R1 retail was to heavy for most pros to customize the way the Pros wanted.

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#21 yahtzee

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:09 PM

So I spoke to a pro at my local shop....he said that the secret grip was BS and to try and remove some weight from the head...he is bringing me a 2 and 4g weight to replace the 10g weight....i pulled that grip today too....no way that thing is 96g.

#22 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:30 PM

The RBZ S2 (non-tour) uses a stock 51g shaft.
The R1 (non-tour) uses a stock 58g shaft.
Not much difference:  7g lighter for the RBZ S2.

IF there is another 23g more weight in the R1 then it would have to be in the head (30-7 = 23).
23 grams more head weight in the R1 (with its weights of 10g/1g I believe are stock) would equal about 10-11 swingweight points more for the R1.

Since the R1 comes in at D4 and the RBZ S2 at D6 (+1/2" longer)...the RBZ S2 equivalent SW at 45.5" is about D4 or equal to the R1.  This therefore means that the head weight of the R1 cannot possibly weight much more than the RBZ S2 or the SW would be much higher.

Next time you try the R1 or RBZ S2 and one "feels heavier" then check on the SW of each because that is where the feel weight enters into the picture.  It is possible that the R1 you tried was not stock and had a heavier SW that you felt.



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#23 G-Bone

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

The RBZ S2 (non-tour) uses a stock 51g shaft.
The R1 (non-tour) uses a stock 58g shaft.
Not much difference:  7g lighter for the RBZ S2.

IF there is another 23g more weight in the R1 then it would have to be in the head (30-7 = 23).
23 grams more head weight in the R1 (with its weights of 10g/1g I believe are stock) would equal about 10-11 swingweight points more for the R1.

Since the R1 comes in at D4 and the RBZ S2 at D6 (+1/2" longer)...the RBZ S2 equivalent SW at 45.5" is about D4 or equal to the R1.  This therefore means that the head weight of the R1 cannot possibly weight much more than the RBZ S2 or the SW would be much higher.

Next time you try the R1 or RBZ S2 and one "feels heavier" then check on the SW of each because that is where the feel weight enters into the picture.  It is possible that the R1 you tried was not stock and had a heavier SW that you felt.

You forgot one major component my friend, the grip.  R1 is standard 55 gram grip and Stage 2 is an FCT Lite grip... Which of course can have a major effect on swing weight and overall weight.  The lighter grip will show higher swing weight on Stage 2, which will of course offset the lighter weight of the Stage 2 head.  At no point do I believe the R1 head weighs almost 30 grams more, but the "entire club" sure does... and PART of that additional weight is most certainly in the head of the R1.
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#24 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 05:15 PM

View PostG-Bone, on 20 March 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

The RBZ S2 (non-tour) uses a stock 51g shaft.
The R1 (non-tour) uses a stock 58g shaft.
Not much difference:  7g lighter for the RBZ S2.

IF there is another 23g more weight in the R1 then it would have to be in the head (30-7 = 23).
23 grams more head weight in the R1 (with its weights of 10g/1g I believe are stock) would equal about 10-11 swingweight points more for the R1.

Since the R1 comes in at D4 and the RBZ S2 at D6 (+1/2" longer)...the RBZ S2 equivalent SW at 45.5" is about D4 or equal to the R1.  This therefore means that the head weight of the R1 cannot possibly weight much more than the RBZ S2 or the SW would be much higher.

Next time you try the R1 or RBZ S2 and one "feels heavier" then check on the SW of each because that is where the feel weight enters into the picture.  It is possible that the R1 you tried was not stock and had a heavier SW that you felt.

You forgot one major component my friend, the grip.  R1 is standard 55 gram grip and Stage 2 is an FCT Lite grip... Which of course can have a major effect on swing weight and overall weight.  The lighter grip will show higher swing weight on Stage 2, which will of course offset the lighter weight of the Stage 2 head.  At no point do I believe the R1 head weighs almost 30 grams more, but the "entire club" sure does... and PART of that additional weight is most certainly in the head of the R1.


The FCT lite is 43g about 12g lighter than the std. grip on the R1.  12 grams in the head would be about 6 SW points, however at the grip end it is much less about 2 1/2 SW point or 5 grams.  That 5 grams added to the head of the R1 offsets that higher grip weight to give the same SW for both the R1 and RBZ S2.  

So that is about 5 more grams in the head of the R1 due to the grip in order to get the same SW.  That plus a 12 grams heavier grip is about 17 grams total...getting closer to that 23 gram difference I mentioned in my prior post.

17 grams/300 grams RBZ * 100 = 6% difference...just enough to be noticeable....but hardly a lot lighter than the R1.

I believe that those that were seeing higher SW in the R1 was NOT because it has a heavier head (as it obviously does not), but is more likely due to heavier shafts that will cause a higher SW.


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#25 Rodabodem

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

View PostRodabodem, on 19 March 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

so, my r11s is an E0 not including the shaft weight... My shaft is 80grams. So what's the swingweight?



You will need to shaft the head, put on the grip and then check swingweight.  Length of the driver is very important in that determination.

Grip is lambkin 3 gen. Playing length is 45.25

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#26 G-Bone

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

View PostG-Bone, on 20 March 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

The RBZ S2 (non-tour) uses a stock 51g shaft.
The R1 (non-tour) uses a stock 58g shaft.
Not much difference:  7g lighter for the RBZ S2.

IF there is another 23g more weight in the R1 then it would have to be in the head (30-7 = 23).
23 grams more head weight in the R1 (with its weights of 10g/1g I believe are stock) would equal about 10-11 swingweight points more for the R1.

Since the R1 comes in at D4 and the RBZ S2 at D6 (+1/2" longer)...the RBZ S2 equivalent SW at 45.5" is about D4 or equal to the R1.  This therefore means that the head weight of the R1 cannot possibly weight much more than the RBZ S2 or the SW would be much higher.

Next time you try the R1 or RBZ S2 and one "feels heavier" then check on the SW of each because that is where the feel weight enters into the picture.  It is possible that the R1 you tried was not stock and had a heavier SW that you felt.

You forgot one major component my friend, the grip.  R1 is standard 55 gram grip and Stage 2 is an FCT Lite grip... Which of course can have a major effect on swing weight and overall weight.  The lighter grip will show higher swing weight on Stage 2, which will of course offset the lighter weight of the Stage 2 head.  At no point do I believe the R1 head weighs almost 30 grams more, but the "entire club" sure does... and PART of that additional weight is most certainly in the head of the R1.


The FCT lite is 43g about 12g lighter than the std. grip on the R1.  12 grams in the head would be about 6 SW points, however at the grip end it is much less about 2 1/2 SW point or 5 grams.  That 5 grams added to the head of the R1 offsets that higher grip weight to give the same SW for both the R1 and RBZ S2.  

So that is about 5 more grams in the head of the R1 due to the grip in order to get the same SW.  That plus a 12 grams heavier grip is about 17 grams total...getting closer to that 23 gram difference I mentioned in my prior post.

17 grams/300 grams RBZ * 100 = 6% difference...just enough to be noticeable....but hardly a lot lighter than the R1.

I believe that those that were seeing higher SW in the R1 was NOT because it has a heavier head (as it obviously does not), but is more likely due to heavier shafts that will cause a higher SW.

I believe FCT Lite is closer to 30 grams. Tomorrow I will post the exact weight of stock R1 head with stock weights and stock Stage 2 head, I don't currently have them with me.

The R1 head is heavier, I don't remeber exactly how much, but somewhere near 10 grams. When we removed the weights from R1 it was very close to Stage 2.

5 grams at the but = 1 swing weight. 2 grams in the head = 1 swing weight. If you do the math with the grip closer to 30 (maybe even 25) grams you will find that leaves room for the R1 to weigh about 10 grams more than Stage 2... Which it cleary does.

Edited by G-Bone, 20 March 2013 - 05:35 PM.

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#27 G-Bone

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

One more thing Bob, aside from the math. When we were testing R1 against Stage 2, during one session (we had 5) we used the same shaft, and I mean the exact same shaft, we were taking it out of one head and putting it in the other, the R1 was 3 or 4 swing weights higher (can't remember exactly).  Not that it matters, but the shaft we were using was a Kai'li 60.

So unless the R1 head we had was an unusual build, math can't beat the real measurements.... Sorry my friend.
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#28 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 05:48 PM

http://www.golfwrx.c...e-a-difference/

They are saying 42grams for the FCT lite...?
Yeah, I would like to see the actual weight of each if you have that.

I'll be getting an R1 in about a month. I use a 76g shaft at 44.5", D7 and it weighs in at 335 gram.  So, the R1 with my 75g AD DI-7x will be fairly close in total weight...SW can be adjusted thank goodness!  AND that is what I like about the R1...the weights....dial in that SW.

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#29 BirdieBob

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostG-Bone, on 20 March 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

One more thing Bob, aside from the math. When we were testing R1 against Stage 2, during one session (we had 5) we used the same shaft, and I mean the exact same shaft, we were taking it out of one head and putting it in the other, the R1 was 3 or 4 swing weights higher (can't remember exactly).  Not that it matters, but the shaft we were using was a Kai'li 60.

So unless the R1 head we had was an unusual build, math can't beat the real measurements.... Sorry my friend.


Well, that 3 - 4 SW difference is about 6-8 grams.  I noted above in my calcs. that I figured about 5 grams difference due to lighter grip and length differences.  So, that is in my ballpark.

I will have an R1 head in a couple of days and weigh it as well to see.... Guess I will include the shaft adapter as well and std. weights of 10g/1g.
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#30 G-Bone

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 20 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

View PostG-Bone, on 20 March 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

One more thing Bob, aside from the math. When we were testing R1 against Stage 2, during one session (we had 5) we used the same shaft, and I mean the exact same shaft, we were taking it out of one head and putting it in the other, the R1 was 3 or 4 swing weights higher (can't remember exactly).  Not that it matters, but the shaft we were using was a Kai'li 60.

So unless the R1 head we had was an unusual build, math can't beat the real measurements.... Sorry my friend.


Well, that 3 - 4 SW difference is about 6-8 grams.  I noted above in my calcs. that I figured about 5 grams difference due to lighter grip and length differences.  So, that is in my ballpark.

I will have an R1 head in a couple of days and weigh it as well to see.... Guess I will include the shaft adapter as well and std. weights of 10g/1g.

It all makes sense. I've claimed all along that R1 head is about 10 grams heavier than Stage 2 head (but the entire club is 30 grams heavier). Your math and my math come pretty close to supporting that. :)

Edited by G-Bone, 20 March 2013 - 06:20 PM.

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