85 replies to this topic

[_MS22_]

What good does any of this do?

Complain, hold classes, have a PGA initiative to speed up the game.....it is all useless!

Why does nobody get that the community of guys here care, and we represent the vast 99% MINORITY, of guys that play at your average course on the weekends.  99% of guys who play are not going to listen, take a speed tutorial, or anything else.  They simply do not care if YOUR round is too slow for YOU, or if YOUR wife is on YOUR case for being away from the family too long on Saturday or Sunday.  It isn't THEIR problem.

It all goes back to the fact that most people, better than 90%, pay their money and feel entitled to play how they want to.  Nothing you can do is going to stop that.  Period.  No signs, warnings from marshalls, PGA initiatives, and on and on.  You can enforce rules if it is a single solitary group, however the problem lies in the vast majority of groups.  That'd be like having 2 cops trying to enforce a speed limit on a highway where 90 of every 100 cars is going 40MPH over the limit....Good Luck!

The only true way to guarantee faster play is to get the first tee time or to join a club (like mine) that monitors members times and penalizes slow players by keeping them off the tee sheet for the busy times.  You average a 5 hour round at my course and you aren't playing before noon on the weekends.  Plain and simple.  Don't like the policy speed up or leave, nobody forces you to pay your dues.

[KYMAR]

Yes these threads are inevitably started out of frustration, and result in a list of "to do's" to make the problem better but they are nearly all completely impractical solutions. Public golf courses care about 1 thing above all others. That is a full tee sheet with 8 min gaps that not only do not help slow play, it almost guarantees it. Contrary to some opinions expressed here, nobody is for slow play. I think there are 2 groups that emerge in this discussion. The group who go through all the outrage and gnashing of teeth demanding things change without any real solutions and the 2nd group who recognize the problem has so many layers to it, there is no simple solution. If there was one main reason for slow play, it could probably be addressed. But there are numerous issues that cause it. Some have been touched on here. Older players are slower, less experienced golfers are slower, competitive matches between buddies are slower, a reuniting 4some of college buddies who have more beers than clubs in their bags are way slower, course difficulty can make things slower.

I disagree that education is a waste of time. I think it can have an effect but it has to be a consistent on point message. My sons been playing with me since he was 7 years old. We had 1 pace of play rule of thumb. Hurry to your ball, take your time at your ball. That is not meant to encourage a 50 second preshot routine, it was meant to enforce the idea that if you get to your ball briskly and get ready to hit you will never be out of position or behind the group in front. If everybody, just did that things would speed up.

Edited by KYMAR, 26 February 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[farmer]

Courses could help.  On weekends, move all the tees up one.  Put pins in areas that are conducive to two putting.  Without being confrontational, there can be clearly stated pace of play expectations.

[tjumper78]

i gave up on slow plays.  however, that does not mean the slow (or fast) play is necessarily bad or anything.
i just accepted the fact that it would be impossible to play every course in 3 hours when there are almost 72 people out on the field at the same time.
it normally takes 4:15~4:20 to finish 18 at my local county courses, so i always put 6 hours (5 hours of play, 15 minutes x 2 driving, 30 minutes preparation) on my schedule.  if it goes faster, great!  if it's slow, i will be mentally prepared for it.  
if i am going to a course that i am not familiar with, i always call the clubhouse before i go and get myself prepared for it.

until there is a good solution for "slow" play, im not going to complain about it.  im just going to go with whatever the current flow is.
stress-free &  frustration-free.

[richard t]

Guys come on, really. Thrill said it/alluded to it earlier. Marshals ARE NOT going to tick the boys off. People are leaving the game, courses are closing. They need revenue. Dipwick tell Hector, Hector tells whoever... courses do not want to loose money. Lots of folks have the I paid my money and I'll take my time approach. Marshal sat right in his cart one day last summer while 3 idiots had a threesome, foursome and another threesome on the tee. He said, "I'll go urge them along." URGE? How about get off this course, here's your money back, and please, don't come back. Nope, says he on his return, "ya'll have a nice day."
If you play on a weekend after 8:30 until 4 or so you know what you're facing. Wait till the rush is over, play real early, play on a week day (if you can) and just know all the PGA, USGA, Golf Digest articles etc. are going to have ZERO affect.
Slow play is not going away!
Sorry.

[tjumper78]

honestly, i do not expect the slow play to go away anytime.  if anything, it'll be get worse and worse as more and more people are playing golf.
i do see that many people are leaving their country clubs in recent years (mostly because of financial reasons) but the local county courses are as busy as ever.  sometimes, i cant even tee off at 4:30pm on a weekday in the middle of summer.

[profsmitty]

Truth is, you have to ask yourself, I suppose, "What do I hate worse, slow play or playing early in morning or late at night? On weekends, instead of weekends? On less heavily played courses or the courses 'everyone' wants to play?". There is no easy answer to slow play. If there was someone would have come up with it by now. Unfortunately, we are bound by a past time that was never "built for speed".

This is a stupid suggestion, I know, but maybe those who hate slow play ought to find something productive to do while waiting between shots. My wife suggests macramé. I'm thinking about birding, myself. Right now, there's 8" of snow on the ground. I'd settle for a 5 hour round with the temperature in the 80's. That's life.

BTW - the problem with a thread or even a forum dedicated to promoting courses that successfully encourage fast play is that we all would post the names of courses that have slow members/ customers. We'd forget about the really good courses. People would rather bellyache than compliment. JAT smitty

[myspinonit]

profsmitty, on 26 February 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Truth is, you have to ask yourself, I suppose, "What do I hate worse, slow play or playing early in morning or late at night? On weekends, instead of weekends? On less heavily played courses or the courses 'everyone' wants to play?". There is no easy answer to slow play. If there was someone would have come up with it by now. Unfortunately, we are bound by a past time that was never "built for speed".

This is a stupid suggestion, I know, but maybe those who hate slow play ought to find something productive to do while waiting between shots. My wife suggests macramé. I'm thinking about birding, myself. Right now, there's 8" of snow on the ground. I'd settle for a 5 hour round with the temperature in the 80's. That's life.

BTW - the problem with a thread or even a forum dedicated to promoting courses that successfully encourage fast play is that we all would post the names of courses that have slow members/ customers. We'd forget about the really good courses. People would rather bellyache than compliment. JAT smitty

Not a stupid suggestion .....speaking of taking up birding and filling in the slow days ...I guess that's how Feherty became able to recognize all the trivial fauna you can imagine (I've seen him do it up close, not just on camera) ... he probably got that knowledge from standing around on the slow days, watching, taking in the beauty of the surroundings, learning.

I won't mention the macrame idea to my wife, as she might see that as an opportunity to ask me to take skeins of wool with me and wind them up for her.

Edited by myspinonit, 26 February 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[golfpros1]

why cant courses simply remind players next on the tee some basic rules (by the starter or similar):

Good morning everyone, I just wanted to go over a few things before you go out.  The 4:15 round is strictly enforced here at BLAH BLAH course, and we politely ask you stay up with the group in front of you.  There will be marshalls on the course to assist you if you have any issues, and to ensure that all players maintain a proper position on the course.  Please be sure to rake your bunkers and repair your ball marks, and we have free repair tools if you need them.  And lastly, if this is your first time here and you need any help with tee box suggestions, I'm more than happy to assist.  Have a great round guys/girls!  

DONE.  That's not confrontational, you're not blaming anyone that they did something, yet you've made it clear they need to be considerate of others and play a reasonable pace, and take care of the course.  Of course, that speech may vary if it's a cart path only day, godzilla just lit 17 on fire, etc. etc., but you get the point.  I worked at a course that did something similar, and not one player every complained about it and actually felt like they got special treatment compared to other courses.

Edited by golfpros1, 26 February 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[DavePelz4]

richard t, on 26 February 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Guys come on, really. Thrill said it/alluded to it earlier. Marshals ARE NOT going to tick the boys off. People are leaving the game, courses are closing. They need revenue. Dipwick tell Hector, Hector tells whoever... courses do not want to loose money. Lots of folks have the I paid my money and I'll take my time approach. Marshal sat right in his cart one day last summer while 3 idiots had a threesome, foursome and another threesome on the tee. He said, "I'll go urge them along." URGE? How about get off this course, here's your money back, and please, don't come back. Nope, says he on his return, "ya'll have a nice day."
If you play on a weekend after 8:30 until 4 or so you know what you're facing. Wait till the rush is over, play real early, play on a week day (if you can) and just know all the PGA, USGA, Golf Digest articles etc. are going to have ZERO affect.
Slow play is not going away!
Sorry.

You bring up an interesting thought related to the economic impact to a course related to slow play.  Will you go back to that track as often if you know you're in for a 5 hour round?  And i also think the majority of people who are really slow is a finite percentage of the group on GolfWRX but a larger population of the true weekend hacker.

We have a group of approximately 15 guys who play all over Chicago and there is a course that we love for the design and green  complexes but only play once a year because they do nothing to enforce slow play.  We'll only go there if we can be in the first 4-5 groups off.  So there is a negative impact to that course because of the lack of monitoring the pace.

[duffer987]

^Only if those potential tee-times you guys would otherwise book there are not taken by others.
I'm guessing if it's a slow round, the course is busy and those tee slots you do not decide to book are scooped up by others.

[roll - gybe]

Thrillhouse, on 24 February 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If you knock an hour off the round that's still 6 hours away from home on a Saturday. It's not going to make a difference to the family man who is playing less these days because it takes up too much time.

All it would do is make those who dont like slow play happier, which while valid, doesn't do anything for the "slow play is shrinking the game" arguments.

Personally when I'm out on the course on a slow day I just go with it, you know it's gonna be slow on a packed Saturday, might as well just relax and accept it for what it is.

Like 5 fallacies above ^

[roll - gybe]

I watched Morning Drive while waiting for a flight this week for the fist time.  One of the guys in the mock zip sweaters said:

Why is the USGA focused on the belly putter when they could focus on speeding up play so people can get home faster?

The man had a point!

And you guys are wrong if you think total time going from 7 hours to 6 hours would not make a difference. At 7 hours you leave home at 8am and return at 3pm. One extra hour would mean breakfast with the kids or an afternoon activity. An hour is a world of time to a kid.

An hour is also a world of time to a stressed out mom. Stressed out moms tell dads not to play golf next weekend. Dads get the message and play less and less.

[Thrillhouse]

roll - gybe, on 26 February 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Thrillhouse, on 24 February 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If you knock an hour off the round that's still 6 hours away from home on a Saturday. It's not going to make a difference to the family man who is playing less these days because it takes up too much time.

All it would do is make those who dont like slow play happier, which while valid, doesn't do anything for the "slow play is shrinking the game" arguments.

Personally when I'm out on the course on a slow day I just go with it, you know it's gonna be slow on a packed Saturday, might as well just relax and accept it for what it is.

Like 5 fallacies above ^

????????????

[Thrillhouse]

roll - gybe, on 26 February 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

I watched Morning Drive while waiting for a flight this week for the fist time.  One of the guys in the mock zip sweaters said:

Why is the USGA focused on the belly putter when they could focus on speeding up play so people can get home faster?

The man had a point!

And you guys are wrong if you think total time going from 7 hours to 6 hours would not make a difference. At 7 hours you leave home at 8am and return at 3pm. One extra hour would mean breakfast with the kids or an afternoon activity. An hour is a world of time to a kid.

An hour is also a world of time to a stressed out mom. Stressed out moms tell dads not to play golf next weekend. Dads get the message and play less and less.

The problem isn't whether dad gets home at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, the problem is that dad is gone for half the day on Saturday when mom wants him around for the trip to home depot, the trip to whole foods, and little johnnys soccer practice. That's why people are leaving the game.

There is a difference between:

1. People are leaving the game because it takes too much time.

And

2. People are leaving the game because the pace is too slow.

I'm suggesting that the issue is the former, rather than the latter.

[ABgolfer2]

Thrillhouse, on 26 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

roll - gybe, on 26 February 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

I watched Morning Drive while waiting for a flight this week for the fist time.  One of the guys in the mock zip sweaters said:

Why is the USGA focused on the belly putter when they could focus on speeding up play so people can get home faster?

The man had a point!

And you guys are wrong if you think total time going from 7 hours to 6 hours would not make a difference. At 7 hours you leave home at 8am and return at 3pm. One extra hour would mean breakfast with the kids or an afternoon activity. An hour is a world of time to a kid.

An hour is also a world of time to a stressed out mom. Stressed out moms tell dads not to play golf next weekend. Dads get the message and play less and less.

The problem isn't whether dad gets home at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, the problem is that dad is gone for half the day on Saturday when mom wants him around for the trip to home depot, the trip to whole foods, and little johnnys soccer practice. That's why people are leaving the game.

There is a difference between:

1. People are leaving the game because it takes too much time.

And

2. People are leaving the game because the pace is too slow.

I'm suggesting that the issue is the former, rather than the latter.

Is it possible that quick players who can get around the course and back home to the family (i.e. guys on borrowed time) are the enemy?

Back in the olden days (let's say before the interweb) women thought a round of golf took about 8 hours. Guys had time to get to the course, have breakfast, practice, play their round, then head back to the clubhouse for a drink and a sandwich. They also had time to stop and loiter at pro shop or hardware store on the way home. Now that the cat is out of the bag that 18 holes could always played  in 3 hours (on foot or otherwise) we have to beg for a 4 hour window. On the weekend I can't get to the course and play 18 in 4 hours during peak hours. I have to either play 9 holes starting on the back nine (at my home course) or tee off 2 hours before sunset and cross my fingers the gates aren't locked when I get to the parking lot.

[duffer987]

**************************
It was a direct reply to this and my interpretation of what a hardware store could be, no need for the buzz killington surely? Oh well.

Quote

Back in the olden days (let's say before the interweb) women thought a round of golf took about 8 hours. Guys had time to get to the course, have breakfast, practice, play their round, then head back to the clubhouse for a drink and a sandwich. They also had time to stop and loiter at pro shop or hardware store on the way home.

There are examples for ways to mitigate slow play peppered throughout this thread.
One of them isn't having a big eff-off daily/weekly whinge thread about it. But hey-ho, we all eagerly await the next installment.

Edited by duffer987, 28 February 2013 - 05:54 PM.
Please stay somewhere close to the topic!

[Newby]

See part on PoP about halfway through.

http://www.usga.org/...Meeting-Speech/

[profsmitty]

Newby, on 28 February 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

See part on PoP about halfway through.

http://www.usga.org/...Meeting-Speech/

Great find, Newby. This is a very interesting discussion of the importance the USGA places to this topic and maybe an insight as to now intractable the issue of PoP is.

[sui generis]

Newby, on 28 February 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

See part on PoP about halfway through.

http://www.usga.org/...Meeting-Speech/

Thanks, Newby.

It's revealing that he allocated just two sentences to the anchoring ban and a full nine paragraphs to pace of play.

[Big Ben]

Slow play is am EPIDEMIC in golf, learn to play ready golf!! You did not buy the course for a day with your greens fees. Thank God my league tees it at 7:30am Sat and my game is first off Sunday or I would simply not play weekend golf...BB

Edited by Big Ben, 28 February 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[apprenti23]

golftw, on 25 February 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Shorter rounds does not equate to more money. Just because the rounds go faster does not mean that more tee times can be added in. Just saying

True bc you only have one 8 o'clock tee time; however, if golf only took four hours at the most you could have people teeing off from 6am until 5pm without ever worrying about finishing due to darkness. Many people will not tee off after three in fear of not finishing. So you may not increase the number of actual tee times, but you would increase the number of playable tee times.

[DavePelz4]

Big Ben, on 28 February 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Slow play is am EPIDEMIC in golf, learn to play ready golf!! You did not buy the course for a day with your greens fees. Thank God my league tees it at 7:30am Sat and my game is first off Sunday or I would simply not play weekend golf...BB

Seriously, this is one of the keys, if not they key.  Walk to your ball...plan your strategy while others are planning theirs and if you're ready, hit the ball.  Repeat for 18 holes, rinse.

[Snufles]

apprenti23, on 28 February 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

golftw, on 25 February 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Shorter rounds does not equate to more money. Just because the rounds go faster does not mean that more tee times can be added in. Just saying

True bc you only have one 8 o'clock tee time; however, if golf only took four hours at the most you could have people teeing off from 6am until 5pm without ever worrying about finishing due to darkness. Many people will not tee off after three in fear of not finishing. So you may not increase the number of actual tee times, but you would increase the number of playable tee times.

I call around to see which course is moving the quickest.

Edited by Snufles, 28 February 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Sooner7x]

I think this is much more of a course by course issue not a UGSA/Golf issue. Every Club, individual needs to find a solution for them.

[onemoetime]

Slow play has gotten way out of hand. It got so bad around here that I started to tee off 7:00am on a weekday. I'd be home by 10:00am usually.