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rule regarding red hazard lines


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#1 Joey76

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 10:28 AM

Can someone give me the ruling on red hazard lines.

We have on our 10th hole down the right hand side a red hazard line.


If my ball is outside that line can I still I still play it without grounding my club.

A person I played with said it was an automatic drop.....


Im asking as I believe I have seen pro's on tour play from "outside" the red line...


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#2 MattTheTaff

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 10:48 AM

Yep, you can play it as it lies within the hazard but not ground the club. Treat it like a bunker
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#3 Newby

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:05 AM

Note that the line itself is in the lateral water hazard. So a ball that is on the line but not touching the course side edge of the line is in the hazard.

#4 MattTheTaff

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:51 AM

Playing in a club tournament last week one of my drives trickled off the fairway and into a lateral hazard, but short of the water. My playing partner got there before me, picked my ball out of the hazard and told me to take a drop. I was fuming because I know the ball was playable out of the hazard. That dropped shot cost me the tournament (I tied the lead but lost it on count back).

I wish more golfers would take more time and learn the rules about what you can and can't do in a hazard.
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#5 jaskanski

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostMattTheTaff, on 23 February 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Yep, you can play it as it lies within the hazard but not ground the club. Treat it like a bunker

Yes. With the exception that a ball cannot be declared unplayable in the water hazard. In a bunker it can.


#6 Newby

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:09 PM

Why didn't you replace it and carry on?

#7 jaskanski

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:13 PM

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Why didn't you replace it and carry on?

That's what I was thinking. Unless of course Matt's partner in foursomes or fourballs was the culprit.

#8 rogolf

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:17 PM

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Note that the line itself is in the lateral water hazard. So a ball that is on the line but not touching the course side edge of the line is in the hazard.

Not sure that I understand this?  Just to clarify, if any part of the ball touches the line defining the lateral water hazard, the ball is in the lateral water hazard.  The ball may be 98% outside the line but if the other 2% touches the line, including the vertical plane above the ground, the ball is in the hazard.

#9 jaskanski

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:22 PM

View Postrogolf, on 23 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Note that the line itself is in the lateral water hazard. So a ball that is on the line but not touching the course side edge of the line is in the hazard.

Not sure that I understand this?  Just to clarify, if any part of the ball touches the line defining the lateral water hazard, the ball is in the lateral water hazard.  The ball may be 98% outside the line but if the other 2% touches the line, including the vertical plane above the ground, the ball is in the hazard.

Note that the margin of a hazard extends vertically upwards. Therefore a ball breaking the margin of the hazard is deemed in it. The line itself is part of the hazard - if the ball breaks the margin, the same ruling would apply. See decision 26/1

#10 turtleback

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

View PostJoey76, on 23 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Can someone give me the ruling on red hazard lines.

We have on our 10th hole down the right hand side a red hazard line.


If my ball is outside that line can I still I still play it without grounding my club.

A person I played with said it was an automatic drop.....


Im asking as I believe I have seen pro's on tour play from "outside" the red line...

Is there an actual water hazard associated with that line?  I ask because I have heard about courses (wrongly) marking rough or OB as a lateral hazard to avoid the stroke and distance issue.  If there is no actual hazard and they are marking the course incorrectly then it is also possible that the course has adopted another improper local rule mandating a drop.  In the real golf world with the real golf rules all the answers you already got were spot on.  But check to be sure it isn't the course that is playing fast and loose with the rules, in which case that person you were playing with may have been right.


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#11 jaskanski

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

View Postturtleback, on 23 February 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

View PostJoey76, on 23 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Can someone give me the ruling on red hazard lines.

We have on our 10th hole down the right hand side a red hazard line.


If my ball is outside that line can I still I still play it without grounding my club.

A person I played with said it was an automatic drop.....


Im asking as I believe I have seen pro's on tour play from "outside" the red line...

Is there an actual water hazard associated with that line?  I ask because I have heard about courses (wrongly) marking rough or OB as a lateral hazard to avoid the stroke and distance issue.  If there is no actual hazard and they are marking the course incorrectly then it is also possible that the course has adopted another improper local rule mandating a drop.  In the real golf world with the real golf rules all the answers you already got were spot on.  But check to be sure it isn't the course that is playing fast and loose with the rules, in which case that person you were playing with may have been right.
Not so fast. The course is obliged to define the margins correctly as per ruling 33-2a, but a player may not take advantage of any such error. A water hazard does not have to contain water either. If the course has defined the margins, you must abide by them.

#12 MattTheTaff

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:17 PM

View Postjaskanski, on 23 February 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Why didn't you replace it and carry on?

That's what I was thinking. Unless of course Matt's partner in foursomes or fourballs was the culprit.

4BBB. My partner was in the already in the hazard looking for it, I walked up behind and spotted it, set my bag down, grabbed a club and my ball rolled between my feet!
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#13 Newby

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:29 PM

not in lwh.jpg

View Postrogolf, on 23 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Note that the line itself is in the lateral water hazard. So a ball that is on the line but not touching the course side edge of the line is in the hazard.

Not sure that I understand this?  Just to clarify, if any part of the ball touches the line defining the lateral water hazard, the ball is in the lateral water hazard.  The ball may be 98% outside the line but if the other 2% touches the line, including the vertical plane above the ground, the ball is in the hazard.

Edited by Newby, 23 February 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#14 Newby

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:35 PM

View PostMattTheTaff, on 23 February 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

View Postjaskanski, on 23 February 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Why didn't you replace it and carry on?

That's what I was thinking. Unless of course Matt's partner in foursomes or fourballs was the culprit.

4BBB. My partner was in the already in the hazard looking for it, I walked up behind and spotted it, set my bag down, grabbed a club and my ball rolled between my feet!

This is confusing. Do you mean 'partner' (as on your side) or 'fellow competitor' (as just someone in your group).
The term 'playing partner' is not a defined term but is often wrongly used on TV and elsewhere to mean 'playing partner'.

#15 MattTheTaff

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:43 PM

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

View PostMattTheTaff, on 23 February 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

View Postjaskanski, on 23 February 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Why didn't you replace it and carry on?

That's what I was thinking. Unless of course Matt's partner in foursomes or fourballs was the culprit.

4BBB. My partner was in the already in the hazard looking for it, I walked up behind and spotted it, set my bag down, grabbed a club and my ball rolled between my feet!

This is confusing. Do you mean 'partner' (as on your side) or 'fellow competitor' (as just someone in your group).
The term 'playing partner' is not a defined term but is often wrongly used on TV and elsewhere to mean 'playing partner'.

Four ball/better ball, he was my partner.

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#16 Joey76

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:45 PM

View Postturtleback, on 23 February 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

View PostJoey76, on 23 February 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Can someone give me the ruling on red hazard lines.

We have on our 10th hole down the right hand side a red hazard line.


If my ball is outside that line can I still I still play it without grounding my club.

A person I played with said it was an automatic drop.....


Im asking as I believe I have seen pro's on tour play from "outside" the red line...

Is there an actual water hazard associated with that line?  I ask because I have heard about courses (wrongly) marking rough or OB as a lateral hazard to avoid the stroke and distance issue.  If there is no actual hazard and they are marking the course incorrectly then it is also possible that the course has adopted another improper local rule mandating a drop.  In the real golf world with the real golf rules all the answers you already got were spot on.  But check to be sure it isn't the course that is playing fast and loose with the rules, in which case that person you were playing with may have been right.

Firstly thanks for the responses guys......


In response to the poster above...

on the tenth hole down the right is bush and down the left is bush....


on the left it is deemed OB despite being inside the course.... on the right it has red markers and a red line down the right side. There is no water here... just bush.....


Its almost impossible to play but sometimes you get lucky... A friend I played with had this such situation but someone in our group said it was a drop.

I recall seeing pro's play it like a bunker IE not ground tha club and I mentioned this but not being a rules officianado I let it ride.


Thanks for confirming that I am always right.... :taunt:


It will be good to let my friend know next time we play....


I would also add that I play in the middle of South America and local rules seem to be "whatever they decide on the day"


its not like the US

Edited by Joey76, 23 February 2013 - 01:48 PM.


#17 rogolf

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Attachment not in lwh.jpg

View Postrogolf, on 23 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Note that the line itself is in the lateral water hazard. So a ball that is on the line but not touching the course side edge of the line is in the hazard.

Not sure that I understand this?  Just to clarify, if any part of the ball touches the line defining the lateral water hazard, the ball is in the lateral water hazard.  The ball may be 98% outside the line but if the other 2% touches the line, including the vertical plane above the ground, the ball is in the hazard.

I'm good with your diagram.  The highlighted portion is what I couldn't wrap my head around.  It could be interpretated to say that a ball on the line but touching the course side is not in the hazard, and I know that's not what you meant.

#18 Newby

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:07 PM

View Postrogolf, on 23 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Attachment not in lwh.jpg

View Postrogolf, on 23 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Note that the line itself is in the lateral water hazard. So a ball that is on the line but not touching the course side edge of the line is in the hazard.

Not sure that I understand this?  Just to clarify, if any part of the ball touches the line defining the lateral water hazard, the ball is in the lateral water hazard.  The ball may be 98% outside the line but if the other 2% touches the line, including the vertical plane above the ground, the ball is in the hazard.

I'm good with your diagram.  The highlighted portion is what I couldn't wrap my head around.  It could be interpretated to say that a ball on the line but touching the course side is not in the hazard, and I know that's not what you meant.

Yes the words were rushed also :black eye:


So a ball that is to the course side edge of the line but touching the line is in the hazard.

Edited by Newby, 23 February 2013 - 02:12 PM.


#19 Sawgrass

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:10 PM

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

The term 'playing partner' is not a defined term but is often wrongly used on TV and elsewhere to mean 'playing partner'.

Hey Newby, is it okay with you that I tease you for having written this sentence?

#20 Newby

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:00 AM

View PostSawgrass, on 23 February 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 23 February 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

The term 'playing partner' is not a defined term but is often wrongly used on TV and elsewhere to mean 'playing partner'.

Hey Newby, is it okay with you that I tease you for having written this sentence?

I've only been back from holiday for a few days, I think I need another one.


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#21 Newby

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:02 AM

View PostJoey76, on 23 February 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:


I would also add that I play in the middle of South America and local rules seem to be "whatever they decide on the day"

its not like the US

Sounds a lot like the US. I think they invented waterless lateral water hazards.

#22 teejaywhy

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:47 AM

I'm not sure if the OP's question was related to the detailed question of the status of a ball lying "on the line," but that issue has been properly answered.  He mentioned "automatic drops" and grounding the club, so a review of the actual rule might be warranted.

First there is no automatic drop.  The player always has the choice of playing the ball as it lies with no penalty.  IF the ball is in fact, within the margin of the hazard, he may play the ball as it lies without penalty, however he is prohibited from testing the surface by touching or grounding the club and may not move any loose impediments (Rule 13-4).

Alternately, the player has 3 options for relief with a penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1):

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played; or

b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.


#23 Sawgrass

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:54 AM

Let me add this to Teejaywhy's post above.

If a red margin is present, you are obligated to follow the lateral water hazard rules irrespective of whether you think it is a legitimate way to mark that area.  Even if it is clear to you that the marking is inappropriate.  You can't, for instance, ground your club in the hazard just because you deduce that it shouldn't be marked as a lateral water hazard.  Similarly, you may take lateral water hazard relief -- because that's the way the course is marked.

The marking error, if one exists, is on the committee, but the golfer must still follow the committee's rules.

#24 kevcarter

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:55 AM

View Postteejaywhy, on 24 February 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure if the OP's question was related to the detailed question of the status of a ball lying "on the line," but that issue has been properly answered.  He mentioned "automatic drops" and grounding the club, so a review of the actual rule might be warranted.

First there is no automatic drop.  The player always has the choice of playing the ball as it lies with no penalty.  IF the ball is in fact, within the margin of the hazard, he may play the ball as it lies without penalty, however he is prohibited from testing the surface by touching or grounding the club and may not move any loose impediments (Rule 13-4).

Never say never or always. What if it is a water hazard that is also defined as an environmentally-sensitive area? See specimen local rules. We may not know the whole story...
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#25 turtleback

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

View Postkevcarter, on 24 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

View Postteejaywhy, on 24 February 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure if the OP's question was related to the detailed question of the status of a ball lying "on the line," but that issue has been properly answered.  He mentioned "automatic drops" and grounding the club, so a review of the actual rule might be warranted.

First there is no automatic drop.  The player always has the choice of playing the ball as it lies with no penalty.  IF the ball is in fact, within the margin of the hazard, he may play the ball as it lies without penalty, however he is prohibited from testing the surface by touching or grounding the club and may not move any loose impediments (Rule 13-4).

Never say never or always. What if it is a water hazard that is also defined as an environmentally-sensitive area? See specimen local rules. We may not know the whole story...

And THIS is what I was trying to get at.  Even if it is not a true environmentally sensitive area the course could just as easily adopt an incorrect local rule requiring a drop as they could incorrectly mark the course.  And I agree with the person who said that even if the course is marked incorrectly and has bad local rules we are bound to follow them.

But I think in those cases I would probably think hard about whether I wanted to submit that score for handicap.  If there was enough bad marking and a bad local rule that comes up several times during play I would have to consider if the round was really played substantially in accordance with the rules.  If I concluded that the bad markings and local rules affected the round too much I would not submit the score.  Nor would I go back to that course, but that is another matter.


#26 Joey76

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:07 PM

Quote


And THIS is what I was trying to get at.  Even if it is not a true environmentally sensitive area the course could just as easily adopt an incorrect local rule requiring a drop as they could incorrectly mark the course.  And I agree with the person who said that even if the course is marked incorrectly and has bad local rules we are bound to follow them.

But I think in those cases I would probably think hard about whether I wanted to submit that score for handicap.  If there was enough bad marking and a bad local rule that comes up several times during play I would have to consider if the round was really played substantially in accordance with the rules.  If I concluded that the bad markings and local rules affected the round too much I would not submit the score.  Nor would I go back to that course, but that is another matter.


When it is the only golf course in your state you may reconsider......

#27 Graymulligan

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:52 AM

For proof that you can attempt to play the ball out of wherever it lands, hazard or not...See also:  Jean Van De Velde.  Or maybe not.  well, lets take a look.  Okay, nope, then take a drop.  :)
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#28 turtleback

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:49 PM

View PostJoey76, on 24 February 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Quote


And THIS is what I was trying to get at.  Even if it is not a true environmentally sensitive area the course could just as easily adopt an incorrect local rule requiring a drop as they could incorrectly mark the course.  And I agree with the person who said that even if the course is marked incorrectly and has bad local rules we are bound to follow them.

But I think in those cases I would probably think hard about whether I wanted to submit that score for handicap.  If there was enough bad marking and a bad local rule that comes up several times during play I would have to consider if the round was really played substantially in accordance with the rules.  If I concluded that the bad markings and local rules affected the round too much I would not submit the score.  Nor would I go back to that course, but that is another matter.


When it is the only golf course in your state you may reconsider......

I wouldn't live in a state with only one golf course.  LOL

#29 teejaywhy

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:59 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 24 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

View Postteejaywhy, on 24 February 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure if the OP's question was related to the detailed question of the status of a ball lying "on the line," but that issue has been properly answered.  He mentioned "automatic drops" and grounding the club, so a review of the actual rule might be warranted.

First there is no automatic drop.  The player always has the choice of playing the ball as it lies with no penalty.  IF the ball is in fact, within the margin of the hazard, he may play the ball as it lies without penalty, however he is prohibited from testing the surface by touching or grounding the club and may not move any loose impediments (Rule 13-4).

Never say never or always. What if it is a water hazard that is also defined as an environmentally-sensitive area? See specimen local rules. We may not know the whole story...

Indeed, this is a situation where one is not permitted to play the ball as it lies.   What about it, Joey?  Is the area defined as an ESA?

He said he lives in S. America, so maybe it's like Arizona, where we are fine with tramping on bird nests and hacking away at endangered frogs and snakes.  I first encountered the ESA thing in California (surprise!).

#30 Joey76

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:42 PM

To the poster above... I really wish I could give you a definitive answer but our course is not organised that well..

there is no "local rules" document available.


It is possible that "Fecong" (here in Brazil) have ruled it a sensitive area as there is no water to be seen and its not a dried out creek bed....

It is basically thick bush but only for about 10 to 15 meters to which there is a fence where they will be shortly building a condominuim of houses on the other side......

There are also large expanses of thick bush which arent marked this way further inside the course..... they are marked OB....

I find it strange they would make it an environmentally sensitive area and 10 meters from the rough there will be houses built...

Will try and snap shot a google earth image later when I have time


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