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"I'm sorry sir, but we're unable to fit you for a shaft today"


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#61 HISPL

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 07:29 PM

View Postwickedhook, on 23 February 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

If one were to determine that taking an inch of his driver shaft produced the best results, and assuming it was butt trimmed, what would be the best way to add the necessary weight back to club without pulling the tip/head? Is there anything that could be poured/added to the hollow core of the shaft and secured to do this. I only suggest this because I would assume you would want the additional weight as close to the head as possible.

You wouldn't add weight down the inside of the shaft, you would add weight to the head, hotmelt or lead tape would do the trick.


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#62 divotdog24

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:28 PM

View PostBluehoseGolf, on 23 February 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

View Postjdmorris1980, on 22 February 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

I have a buddy with similar speed and he uses a whiteboard 73x tipped 1/2",  may be able to find one or an ahina 70x in an anser head to demo. Adams fast 12ls with 6m3 x might be something to look at as well. Those combos may help you some with your spin issue. Good luck in your search.

Thanks..I wish I could find a whiteboard for a broke-college-kid price haha. I'll have to look into Adams a little more.

I just sold one last month.  I think the guy who bought it from me sold it again.  If you wanted you could PM and Ill see what I can do.


Is it on the BST? I'd certainly be interested if it was the right flex/length




View PostHoward Jones, on 23 February 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Just use impact labels or a whiteboard pen to locate impact, and then you are able to judge club length, but since i do fittings for professionals, i can tell that i never saw a player who can handle a driver above 45.00, and they might be playing 0.75 to 1 inch above standard in irons.index plus 3 to 6 (sunny side of the HCP scale)

I'm planning on trying to do this tomorrow.

As I'm looking at most of the specs on aftermarket shafts, it seems many come at 46" standard. If I do, indeed, need a shorter shaft how can I (or have a shop) cut it down to the right length (say 44") without severely compromising it. I would assume a 46" X-Stiff shaft cut down to 44" would be like swinging a piece of rebar? Are shorter lengths available with the same specs (besides length obviously) as a 46" version?

#63 Howard Jones

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:45 PM

@divotdog24

Go back to post #13
- Its not like that a shaft is made to be played at 46 or 45 for that matter
All shafts is designed to be adjusted on length to both drivers and woods, and we all know a 7W would not have the same shaft length as a driver, so dont worry to much about going shorter, but make sure its done right.

ONLY if you want it to play softer, and a bit higher launching, you should take it all from butt side, otherwise the shaft must be taken out for tip trimming. Since you most likely will ad weight back if you go shorter, be prepared for that the shaft must out, and then its easy to re-set SW value by using hot melt in the head.

If you go trough the shaft length DIY test in post #13 you will know what it takes to get it right

#64 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:31 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 23 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

For some reason i cant qoute...

@Red
Take a deeeep breath my friend, and start with the basic
- When a player cant get his PTR value up to 1:48 or above ITS A EVIDENCE that he made contact OUTSIDE of the sweetspot
Its all we need to get further.

If we make impact outside the sweetspot. NO DATAS can be use when we look at spin or launch or ball flight, and ive explained it all above here in another post.

Its correct that we adapt to the club we play on good and bad, but impact spot is not that attached to bendprofile, and the reason is the same. We adapt to the club, so a index 5 player would be able to find center of face, IF Shaft lenght is right, but we see that he cant, and the shaft feels ok for him, so its NOT the shaft, NOT yet, we have to see values when hit in the sweet spot area to judge that.

1* loft is 250-300 rpm, so how do we get up and above 5000 ? Not by using loft, they dont make drivers with loft that high, so its not loft, its something outside our control called GEAR EFFECT, and now we know his head is 8.5 and that makes it even more clear, this got nothing to do with loft at impact, because his launch is only 12*

A shaft might for a late release player add up to 1.5 in dynamic loft within the same flex range, and thats max 900 rpm so no matter shaft you give him, you want be able to fix the spin problem, because its NOT caused by static or dynamic loft.

@Jas....if i was reading the correct #4 its not the issue here. Flipping hands will add loft and launch, but launch is only 12* and thats not unusual from 8.5 loft adding 3.5 either as AoA or dynamic loft or a combo of both

AoA is not the issue either. We dont add spin by hitting down in the ball, thats an old myth
- Its when a player with a negative angle of attack want to get the same launch angle as someone with a positive angle of attack that spin enters the scene. The player with negative AoA will need more loft to get the same launch angle as the one who by nature got a positive Aoa, but if you gave  a player with -2* AoA a club with 10 loft, and the same club to a player with +2 AoA, their SPIN values will be identical, but launch angle will not. Thats the relationship between AoA and spin, and its not the issue here.

Howard,

I don't dispute anything you have posted in this thread (check my posts if you do not agree). I am simply adding my input for the OP who was asking about shafts. It's possible he DOES have an impact issue and, if so, it absolutely should be the FIRST thing he addresses. However, I see many threads where posters start giving all kinds of info with almost no data to go on. This almost always ends up with the OP even more confused than when they started. I'm just trying to get this forum away from that practice. I think everyone would agree that it would be far more beneficial to readers if things were as accurate as we could make them.

I should apologize for the "lack of tact" in my first post. Unfortunately, I was in the midst of a very frustrating day at work and was visiting the forum to get that off my mind when I entered in to this thread.

BT
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#65 Howard Jones

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 24 February 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 23 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

For some reason i cant qoute...

@Red
Take a deeeep breath my friend, and start with the basic
- When a player cant get his PTR value up to 1:48 or above ITS A EVIDENCE that he made contact OUTSIDE of the sweetspot
Its all we need to get further.

If we make impact outside the sweetspot. NO DATAS can be use when we look at spin or launch or ball flight, and ive explained it all above here in another post.

Its correct that we adapt to the club we play on good and bad, but impact spot is not that attached to bendprofile, and the reason is the same. We adapt to the club, so a index 5 player would be able to find center of face, IF Shaft lenght is right, but we see that he cant, and the shaft feels ok for him, so its NOT the shaft, NOT yet, we have to see values when hit in the sweet spot area to judge that.

1* loft is 250-300 rpm, so how do we get up and above 5000 ? Not by using loft, they dont make drivers with loft that high, so its not loft, its something outside our control called GEAR EFFECT, and now we know his head is 8.5 and that makes it even more clear, this got nothing to do with loft at impact, because his launch is only 12*

A shaft might for a late release player add up to 1.5 in dynamic loft within the same flex range, and thats max 900 rpm so no matter shaft you give him, you want be able to fix the spin problem, because its NOT caused by static or dynamic loft.

@Jas....if i was reading the correct #4 its not the issue here. Flipping hands will add loft and launch, but launch is only 12* and thats not unusual from 8.5 loft adding 3.5 either as AoA or dynamic loft or a combo of both

AoA is not the issue either. We dont add spin by hitting down in the ball, thats an old myth
- Its when a player with a negative angle of attack want to get the same launch angle as someone with a positive angle of attack that spin enters the scene. The player with negative AoA will need more loft to get the same launch angle as the one who by nature got a positive Aoa, but if you gave  a player with -2* AoA a club with 10 loft, and the same club to a player with +2 AoA, their SPIN values will be identical, but launch angle will not. Thats the relationship between AoA and spin, and its not the issue here.

Howard,

I don't dispute anything you have posted in this thread (check my posts if you do not agree). I am simply adding my input for the OP who was asking about shafts. It's possible he DOES have an impact issue and, if so, it absolutely should be the FIRST thing he addresses. However, I see many threads where posters start giving all kinds of info with almost no data to go on. This almost always ends up with the OP even more confused than when they started. I'm just trying to get this forum away from that practice. I think everyone would agree that it would be far more beneficial to readers if things were as accurate as we could make them.

I should apologize for the "lack of tact" in my first post. Unfortunately, I was in the midst of a very frustrating day at work and was visiting the forum to get that off my mind when I entered in to this thread.

BT

+1 to that, and you dont have anything to apologize for, because it should be some space for "feel and temp" in a debate, otherwise its not bringing us any further.

I do agree a lot about your comment, where advises is given, based on next to nothing, but i think there has been done large improvements in that area lately, where more and more players can provide LM dates for judgement. How ever, the good old fashion impact tape seems to be forgotten the same minute the LM got in the door, so they dont log where impact was made, and then they go snow blind, changing set ups without a clue of what the problem really is. When a OEM fitter tells a Customer he is doing pretty well with club who gives 1:40 to 1:42 in PTR, they can sell him another driver next year too, and that p...me off big time.

Its NOT how it should be done, and any sales man who have success over time, has it because he sells "right" and dont over sell anything, and his customers brings him other customers all the time, so he dont have to cheat aný one to make a good living. He does the o posit, his very best and make sure his customers is happy, and when they are, they are the one who sells your clubs, You just fit them and build them, but you dont find that too many places. Many seems to be in for volume and short term profit only, and super stores takes advantage of cheap labor, not quality and craftsmanship, but there are exceptions.

Edited by Howard Jones, 24 February 2013 - 05:34 PM.


#66 HISPL

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:44 PM

Howard, not all OEM fitters would be happy with a customer that has a smash factor between 1.40 and 1.42.

If I can't fit someone into a driver that gets them 1.46-1.50 then I'm not happy and I fit people into OEM products.

OEM fitting is getting better and better, I try to educate myself to be a better fitter constantly to... But this is not the case with all OEM fitters of course and not all custom component fitters either I'm sure.

On a side note, what do you do when a golfer has an inconsistent swing?

Golfers that are only just taking the game up can be hard to fit, but do you not bother with the 6 foot 8 inch tall player until he swings better?

I try to get the player as close as possible so that they can achieve a comfortable address position and try to fit them with what I think might suit best for their level of athleticism.


#67 Howard Jones

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostHISPL, on 24 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Howard, not all OEM fitters would be happy with a customer that has a smash factor between 1.40 and 1.42.

If I can't fit someone into a driver that gets them 1.46-1.50 then I'm not happy and I fit people into OEM products.

OEM fitting is getting better and better, I try to educate myself to be a better fitter constantly to... But this is not the case with all OEM fitters of course and not all custom component fitters either I'm sure.

On a side note, what do you do when a golfer has an inconsistent swing?

Golfers that are only just taking the game up can be hard to fit, but do you not bother with the 6 foot 8 inch tall player until he swings better?

I try to get the player as close as possible so that they can achieve a comfortable address position and try to fit them with what I think might suit best for their level of athleticism.

As i said, there are exceptions, but they are few, so be proud of yourself if you by your heart can say you are one of them.

If i cant fix a players swing of the day, i send him home, because i have that policy that all clubs who goes out from my shop is beneficial for the player, or i dont allow him to buy it.
- It happen more than once that i could not help the player and thats why i have a HDCP limit of 10 to get access to my services, but even then its not always the day for a fitting.

My largest issue against the OEM business is lack of education trough out the organisation, because the products is OK, if the dealers know how to fit them, and modify them so they actually fitted their customers, but even here, in this very part of the WRX, there is daily examples of players who are happy for what they got, but they are not even close to being optimized or fitted to their potential as players, so when someone say "ideal #" does not help you on the score card, what they really is telling is they never been fitted right.

#68 HISPL

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:49 PM

Howard. I wish I could impose a handicap limit of 10 on my customers!

Most of the players that I fit would have a handicap ranging between 15-35 who want to "buy a game" or improve without practice and then a bunch of others between a +2 to 6 who want to optimize their game. The odd professional too.

But we are now far from the topic, I would take an educated guess that technique is playing a major role here.
A negative angle of attack with a flip will make the spin loft go through the roof!

#69 Howard Jones

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostHISPL, on 24 February 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Howard. I wish I could impose a handicap limit of 10 on my customers!

Most of the players that I fit would have a handicap ranging between 15-35 who want to "buy a game" or improve without practice and then a bunch of others between a +2 to 6 who want to optimize their game. The odd professional too.

But we are now far from the topic, I would take an educated guess that technique is playing a major role here.
A negative angle of attack with a flip will make the spin loft go through the roof!

We are not that far off.... :swoon:

Please explain the last one...
"A negative angle of attack with a flip will make the spin loft go through the roof!"

#70 HISPL

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:09 PM

Spin loft is a term that Trackman use, it is the difference between angle of attack and dynamic loft.

So if you have a dynamic loft of 20 degrees and a zero attack angle your spin loft is 20 degrees, if you have a dynamic loft of 20 degrees and an angle of attack of +5 degrees your spin loft is 15 degrees.
If you have a 20 degree dynamic loft and a negative attack of -5 degrees your spin loft is 25 degrees.

The lower the spin loft, the less spin applied to the ball.

The lower the spin loft the better the smash factor too.

Edited by HISPL, 24 February 2013 - 10:24 PM.


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#71 Howard Jones

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:15 AM

OK, you know the math, but i was hoping for you to do the math from the numbers we got to "prove your point", but you did not and thats ok. Treads like this one got a lot of readers, so i would like to give a link to one of the better public info Trackman has published, about where spin comes from, Angle of attack, spin loft and so on.

But DONT use the numbers in that chart for club speed to carry on different LA and AoA. that chart has been reviced since, and PTR is only 1:45 in that chart so its in no way optimum

A very interesting chart in this link is a large scale foot print of the algorithm Trackman is using for players at 90 Mph, and its the only Club speed level they have published a chart like this (competition i guess)

Another page who i want you to pay attention to is page 15 of 28
- Its about face friction vs spin and launch angle
Higher friction = Lower launch but higher spin.

If you read between the lines, you will understand how DG Spinner works, even if its against the official school in shafts who say we cant add spin without adding launch. DG Spinner got a long stiff tip, adding pressure to the ball who is just what happens as if friction was higher. The ball will stay "quiet" on the face for a split second longer, to be compressed more, before it decompresses and leaves the face. Most players are not aware of that spin dont go up when we pass 56 Loft at impact with a wedge. We loose compression but adds launch angle and descent, but not spin. DG spinner prevent even higher loft to maintain as much compression to the ball as possible, and thats how they work.

http://www.trackman....d Spin Loft.pdf

#72 apprenti23

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:58 AM

Can you say steep? As long as the launch monitor isn't garbage and giving skewed numbers I would say swing issue!

#73 HISPL

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:18 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 25 February 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

OK, you know the math, but i was hoping for you to do the math from the numbers we got to "prove your point", but you did not and thats ok. Treads like this one got a lot of readers, so i would like to give a link to one of the better public info Trackman has published, about where spin comes from, Angle of attack, spin loft and so on.

But DONT use the numbers in that chart for club speed to carry on different LA and AoA. that chart has been reviced since, and PTR is only 1:45 in that chart so its in no way optimum

A very interesting chart in this link is a large scale foot print of the algorithm Trackman is using for players at 90 Mph, and its the only Club speed level they have published a chart like this (competition i guess)

Another page who i want you to pay attention to is page 15 of 28
- Its about face friction vs spin and launch angle
Higher friction = Lower launch but higher spin.

If you read between the lines, you will understand how DG Spinner works, even if its against the official school in shafts who say we cant add spin without adding launch. DG Spinner got a long stiff tip, adding pressure to the ball who is just what happens as if friction was higher. The ball will stay "quiet" on the face for a split second longer, to be compressed more, before it decompresses and leaves the face. Most players are not aware of that spin dont go up when we pass 56 Loft at impact with a wedge. We loose compression but adds launch angle and descent, but not spin. DG spinner prevent even higher loft to maintain as much compression to the ball as possible, and thats how they work.

http://www.trackman....d Spin Loft.pdf

Happy to do the Math Howard, however it is well after 10pm and just gotten home from a lovely dinner out with my wife. After having a few beers (and being a little tired) the math will have to wait until the morning :)

#74 HISPL

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

Smash factor ~ (1+COR) COS(Spin Loft)/1+Ball mass/Clubhead mass

1.41~ (1.83) COS(Spin Loft)/1.225

I don't have a graphics calculator on me, but with one it wouldn't be too hard to work out.

I calculated the smash factor by taking the lower club head speed and lower ball speed and doing the usual calculation and the comparing this to the higher club head speed and ball speed and taking the mean of the two calculated smash factors to within 2 decimals.

I used 0.045kg for the ball mass and 0.200kg for the Clubhead mass.

#75 HISPL

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:46 PM

Oh, that was just using the formulae given on the Trackman newsletter that you posted the link to :)


#76 g_olson10

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:48 PM

Odly enough low spinning shafts are relatively cheap. Although having a rombax would be awesome you can get an aldila nv shaft whi ch by all means is a great shaft with a low to mid trajectory for 50 bucks. They are decent shafts and would get the rpm down for sure
TaylorMade R1 Black Aldila 44 Magnum
Rocketballz Stage 2 Fuji Fuel X
TaylorMade r11TP 18* DG TI x100
R9TP PX 6.0
Taylormade ATV 52* 56* 60* TI X100
odyssey sabertooth2 super stroke 1.0

#77 HISPL

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:31 PM

View Postg_olson10, on 25 February 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

Odly enough low spinning shafts are relatively cheap. Although having a rombax would be awesome you can get an aldila nv shaft whi ch by all means is a great shaft with a low to mid trajectory for 50 bucks. They are decent shafts and would get the rpm down for sure

It isn't an equipment problem, it is a technique problem.

In the meanwhile until the technique improves it would be better for the OP to have a higher launching shaft and more loft so that it promotes a technique change. A more upwards angle of attack and a prorated left wrist at impact (assuming the OP is a right hander)

#78 J.W.

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:26 PM

With the constant chatter of terms like "AoA" and "SpinLoft" you'd think no good great players have a negative AoA.  Now that we know that is NOT the case I don't know why there is a constant obsession over it.  It is also VERY possible to have a descending strike with the driver and still achieve very optimal results.  Even a guy like Bubba Watson who is a total freak of nature in front of a TrackMan when hitting balls on the range launches it low on the course.  Sure he can achieve a very positive AoA such as 5 and launch it at 16-17 with spin rates lower than 2000 with given ability but when it comes right down to it that's not a shot he plays on the course very often.  We know this based on his average PGA Tour launch data.

TrackMan is a wealth of information and being fit by someone qualified certainly helps but at the end of the day you still need to play golf.

#79 greens hit

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:02 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 25 February 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

OK, you know the math, but i was hoping for you to do the math from the numbers we got to "prove your point", but you did not and thats ok. Treads like this one got a lot of readers, so i would like to give a link to one of the better public info Trackman has published, about where spin comes from, Angle of attack, spin loft and so on.

But DONT use the numbers in that chart for club speed to carry on different LA and AoA. that chart has been reviced since, and PTR is only 1:45 in that chart so its in no way optimum

A very interesting chart in this link is a large scale foot print of the algorithm Trackman is using for players at 90 Mph, and its the only Club speed level they have published a chart like this (competition i guess)

Another page who i want you to pay attention to is page 15 of 28
- Its about face friction vs spin and launch angle
Higher friction = Lower launch but higher spin.

If you read between the lines, you will understand how DG Spinner works, even if its against the official school in shafts who say we cant add spin without adding launch. DG Spinner got a long stiff tip, adding pressure to the ball who is just what happens as if friction was higher. The ball will stay "quiet" on the face for a split second longer, to be compressed more, before it decompresses and leaves the face. Most players are not aware of that spin dont go up when we pass 56 Loft at impact with a wedge. We loose compression but adds launch angle and descent, but not spin. DG spinner prevent even higher loft to maintain as much compression to the ball as possible, and thats how they work.

http://www.trackman....d Spin Loft.pdf

Howard, why do you keep referring to PTR and Smash factor as xx:xx? Isn't it a ratio? As in 1.50 (150/100=1.5)? What does 1:50 mean? 1 to 50 ratio? scale?

#80 Howard Jones

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:51 AM

sorry, its a old typo, hart to get off, but i normally explain how the math goes down with 100 mph club speed and PTR 1.50 = 150 MPH ball speed, and i guess you was aware of that already.


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#81 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostHISPL, on 24 February 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Howard. I wish I could impose a handicap limit of 10 on my customers!

Most of the players that I fit would have a handicap ranging between 15-35 who want to "buy a game" or improve without practice and then a bunch of others between a +2 to 6 who want to optimize their game. The odd professional too.

But we are now far from the topic, I would take an educated guess that technique is playing a major role here.
A negative angle of attack with a flip will make the spin loft go through the roof!

This is one of the main things that got me away from the business. It seemed they were ALL that way after a while and I just couldn't take the frustration any longer. It would have been nice to have some LM data back in the day to help convince them of their swing flaws. It's amazing how people will argue about the obvious sometimes.

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#82 lordbyron

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostHoward Jones, on 22 February 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

As the title implies, today I went down to my local fitting center/golf shop trying to get fit for a new shaft and driver. I left empty handed and a little discouraged... and now turn to the wrx for ideas.

I hit every X-flex shaft they could find to throw in there and nothing seemed to help my off the wall spin rates. Part of the problem may have been the shops shaft options (or lack thereof). It was pretty much limited to all the available offerings from the big names (Titleist, Cally, Taylor etc..). The closest I had to a fit was the Fuji Rombax X 75..but the spin was still consistently around 4000..which was still too high for me to justify.

I know there's probably tons of options out there that would fit the bill, but as college kid with loans I can't drop $250+ on just a shaft.
The Proforce V2 67g looked interesting. I can't seem to find a GD Tour AD Throttle in an X flex anywhere, but that looked like it could possibly work.

My numbers off the Trackman were-

Avg. Swing Speed: 110-120
Avg Ball Speed: 155-170
Avg. Launch Angle: 12 degrees
Back Spin: 4500-6000 RPM (YIKES!!)

I'm a 5 handicap.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?
I'm hesitant buying something before hitting it, but the only fitting center around is the one I already tried out.

Thanks!

Sometimes i wants to cry when i read about how STUPID club fitters around really is, and they call them self Club fitters and professionals, but there seems to be a very long distance between those ho actually knows how to fit a club and those who dont.

#1 in club fitting is shaft length, and its not even a subject here, and it hardly is in OEM fitting, so what can you expect when we take the most important fitting parameter on "walk over" ? A few simple things everyone should now about club fitting.

- We always have to start with club length, and without that, we are not going to make it. Its not even a subject for debate, its simply the most important parameter, so if we dont do any ting about it, we can just as well forget the rest, because we are no longer into whats called a club fitting then.

By testing different shaft lengths, we wants to find the club length that gives you a comfortable stance where YOUR body can swing to its very best, and a length who fits your ability for eye to hand coordination. If you play standard length in your irons and thats correct for you, a driver between 43.50 and 44 inch is whats right for you. If you are a professional player and play standard, you MIGHT be able to handle a driver of up to 45 inch, but it would NOT be a optimized club.

The commercial try to tell us that we can hit longer with a light and long driver. Thats a truth with LARGE modifications.
- Only players who gain club speed, and maintain their PTR (Power transfer ratio), also known as smash factor, will gain, all others would not.

When we trace the correct shaft length, we look at PTR value, because the COR value of the face is variable, PTR value alone will tell us if we got impact within the sweet spot or not. PTR value should be 1:48 up to its max 1:50 when we have found the right shaft length, total weight, and SW balance. NOW its time to look on launch and spin.

PS! The optimized PTR value of 1:50 is only for drivers and woods. When loft goes up, we use more enegry for spin, and less for ballspeed, so PTR will drop by nature so its noting wrong if you cant get 1:50 on your #6 iron, you want be able to either.

Ball speed / Club speed = PTR
150 Mph / 100 Mph = 1.50 - max

Your smash factor is in the 1:40 area and from 100 Mph club speed, that give only 140 Mph ball speed and you loose a bit more than 2 yards carry for each mile ball speed, so here is 20 yards, just from improving PTR value, and then we get started......

Spin values is very different depending on where on the face you got impact, and outside the sweetspot area, spin value will be crazy, so its NOT you who have a spin problem, you have a impact spot problem, but thats what we should take care of by a good club fitting, but the place you where did not know how to get you there. It tells me they are doing trial and error and hope for a miracle, and thats got nothing to do with club fitting.

We have something called GEAR EFFECT on a club face, and we also have "Bulge and Roll" who is the curves you can see from heel to toe, or sole to crown. On a modern driver, Center of Gravity is way back in the club head, and the further away from the impact spot, the larger is the gear effect.

http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402315

The gear effect works like this:
- If impact is Heel side, the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" against the Toe side, causing a fade or worse a slice
- If impact is Toe side, the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" against the Heel side, causing a draw or worse a hook
- If impact is below center line of the face,the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" up against the crown, causing more backspin, but a lower flight because loft is lower below center line.
- If impact is above center line of the face,the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" down against the sole, causing less backspin, but a higher flight because loft is higher above center line.

Here is gear effect shown on a FLAT vs a Bulged club face
Bulge is a ANTI Gear effect design
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402316

Here is gear effect shown as effect for height and spin if hit lower or higher than centerline.
Again the curve from sole to crown is a ANTI gear effect design
(ROLL is correct name, i just used the same photo)
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402317

A good club fittings #1 task is to optimize PTR value, not only to get maximized ball speed and distance, but also to prevent unwanted spin and flight pattern caused by gear effects when impact is outside sweet spot.

You can test all the shafts as X flex this world got to offer without improving anything, YOU HAVE TO start by finding what shaft length, and total weight and SW balance is right for you, then the fitting can move on, NOT before.
For my clarification and education, how would you properly measure driver playing length.  I assume you are not refering to shaft legth but playing lenth.....is this measured from the butt to where the club soles out?

I have been thinking about trimming my stock r11 blur down as every miss is heel side.  I play a fade and the heel side misses magnify the left to right.
thanks!

#83 cardoustie

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:00 PM

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

View Postjdmorris1980, on 22 February 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

I have a buddy with similar speed and he uses a whiteboard 73x tipped 1/2",  may be able to find one or an ahina 70x in an anser head to demo. Adams fast 12ls with 6m3 x might be something to look at as well. Those combos may help you some with your spin issue. Good luck in your search.

Thanks..I wish I could find a whiteboard for a broke-college-kid price haha. I'll have to look into Adams a little more.

Put a whiteboard 73x in an Adams 9015d or 9016d .. you can get a pull for cheap and these heads are around
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#84 tembolo1284

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:07 PM

go down in loft...and improve that 1.4 smash!
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#85 reg1900

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:31 AM

What about bad data being the problem, meaning the LM was set up incorrectly or is faulty. The OP has a handicap of 5 so I wouldn't think he has a lot of problem finding the sweet spot and is playing an 8.5 head, pretty hard to fathom spin numbers of 6000


#86 HISPL

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:52 AM

View Postreg1900, on 02 March 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

What about bad data being the problem, meaning the LM was set up incorrectly or is faulty. The OP has a handicap of 5 so I wouldn't think he has a lot of problem finding the sweet spot and is playing an 8.5 head, pretty hard to fathom spin numbers of 6000

Not out of the question however we only have those numbers to go by.

I played with a 6 handicapper today and he would have easily put 6000rpm of spin on the ball with the driver, the ball ballooned so badly in the air it was like watching him hit an old balata ball!

#87 HISPL

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostJ.W., on 25 February 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

With the constant chatter of terms like "AoA" and "SpinLoft" you'd think no good great players have a negative AoA.  Now that we know that is NOT the case I don't know why there is a constant obsession over it.  It is also VERY possible to have a descending strike with the driver and still achieve very optimal results.  Even a guy like Bubba Watson who is a total freak of nature in front of a TrackMan when hitting balls on the range launches it low on the course.  Sure he can achieve a very positive AoA such as 5 and launch it at 16-17 with spin rates lower than 2000 with given ability but when it comes right down to it that's not a shot he plays on the course very often.  We know this based on his average PGA Tour launch data.

TrackMan is a wealth of information and being fit by someone qualified certainly helps but at the end of the day you still need to play golf.

Yes, Trackman is a wealth of information and you are right about players at the end of the day just needing to get out there and play golf.

But golf can be a lot easier when you hit the ball well and the best part about Trackman is that we can use it as a learning tool and not just for club fitting.

From the data the OP gave us (as long as it is from Trackman which is accurate) we can deduce the reason why the OP has a "spin problem".

I use Trackman when I can to look at my path and face angle, angle of attack and spin loft.

If you get your body making the right movements and the club is in the right position at impact Trackman will show you favourable data.

Once you get the numbers where you want them you still have to take it to the course!




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