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"I'm sorry sir, but we're unable to fit you for a shaft today"


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#1 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM

As the title implies, today I went down to my local fitting center/golf shop trying to get fit for a new shaft and driver. I left empty handed and a little discouraged... and now turn to the wrx for ideas.

I hit every X-flex shaft they could find to throw in there and nothing seemed to help my off the wall spin rates. Part of the problem may have been the shops shaft options (or lack thereof). It was pretty much limited to all the available offerings from the big names (Titleist, Cally, Taylor etc..). The closest I had to a fit was the Fuji Rombax X 75..but the spin was still consistently around 4000..which was still too high for me to justify.

I know there's probably tons of options out there that would fit the bill, but as college kid with loans I can't drop $250+ on just a shaft.
The Proforce V2 67g looked interesting. I can't seem to find a GD Tour AD Throttle in an X flex anywhere, but that looked like it could possibly work.

My numbers off the Trackman were-

Avg. Swing Speed: 110-120
Avg Ball Speed: 155-170
Avg. Launch Angle: 12 degrees
Back Spin: 4500-6000 RPM (YIKES!!)

I'm a 5 handicap.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?
I'm hesitant buying something before hitting it, but the only fitting center around is the one I already tried out.

Thanks!


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#2 jdmorris1980

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:25 AM

What was your angle of attack? Negative?

#3 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:43 AM

View Postjdmorris1980, on 22 February 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

What was your angle of attack? Negative?

Oddly enough, I seem to swing up on the ball; a lot of them balloon on me or are so high I wouldn't get much roll out anyway.

#4 jdmorris1980

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:54 AM

I have a buddy with similar speed and he uses a whiteboard 73x tipped 1/2",  may be able to find one or an ahina 70x in an anser head to demo. Adams fast 12ls with 6m3 x might be something to look at as well. Those combos may help you some with your spin issue. Good luck in your search.

#5 jaskanski

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:21 AM

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:



Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?


With those numbers, probably a banjo.
Seriously though, with a smash factor of around 1.40 (pretty bad for a 5 index) and those spin figures (assuming they are accurate) you are nowhere near a good fit in terms of shaft or head.
It's probably just as well you didn't get a recommendation, because those figures (to me) would be a sign to get a second opinion from a certified professional, before attempting to test the water on aftermarket equipment. It'll save you money, honestly.


#6 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:34 AM

View Postjaskanski, on 22 February 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?


With those numbers, probably a banjo.
Seriously though, with a smash factor of around 1.40 (pretty bad for a 5 index) and those spin figures (assuming they are accurate) you are nowhere near a good fit in terms of shaft or head.
It's probably just as well you didn't get a recommendation, because those figures (to me) would be a sign to get a second opinion from a certified professional, before attempting to test the water on aftermarket equipment. It'll save you money, honestly.

Sorry I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?


Are you saying the numbers from the trackman could be skewed? I was under the impression a 1.40 smash factor was relatively decent..1.50 is perfect right? I mean it could be better, but for not swinging for 3 months prior to the fitting it seemed OK.  
My ball speed isn't tremendously low or anything and I felt like i was making pretty solid contact. I'm just trying to get my spin down.

Edited by divotdog24, 22 February 2013 - 02:41 AM.


#7 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:36 AM

View Postjdmorris1980, on 22 February 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

I have a buddy with similar speed and he uses a whiteboard 73x tipped 1/2",  may be able to find one or an ahina 70x in an anser head to demo. Adams fast 12ls with 6m3 x might be something to look at as well. Those combos may help you some with your spin issue. Good luck in your search.

Thanks..I wish I could find a whiteboard for a broke-college-kid price haha. I'll have to look into Adams a little more.

#8 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:46 AM

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

As the title implies, today I went down to my local fitting center/golf shop trying to get fit for a new shaft and driver. I left empty handed and a little discouraged... and now turn to the wrx for ideas.

I hit every X-flex shaft they could find to throw in there and nothing seemed to help my off the wall spin rates. Part of the problem may have been the shops shaft options (or lack thereof). It was pretty much limited to all the available offerings from the big names (Titleist, Cally, Taylor etc..). The closest I had to a fit was the Fuji Rombax X 75..but the spin was still consistently around 4000..which was still too high for me to justify.

I know there's probably tons of options out there that would fit the bill, but as college kid with loans I can't drop $250+ on just a shaft.
The Proforce V2 67g looked interesting. I can't seem to find a GD Tour AD Throttle in an X flex anywhere, but that looked like it could possibly work.

My numbers off the Trackman were-

Avg. Swing Speed: 110-120
Avg Ball Speed: 155-170
Avg. Launch Angle: 12 degrees
Back Spin: 4500-6000 RPM (YIKES!!)

I'm a 5 handicap.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?
I'm hesitant buying something before hitting it, but the only fitting center around is the one I already tried out.

Thanks!

Sometimes i wants to cry when i read about how STUPID club fitters around really is, and they call them self Club fitters and professionals, but there seems to be a very long distance between those ho actually knows how to fit a club and those who dont.

#1 in club fitting is shaft length, and its not even a subject here, and it hardly is in OEM fitting, so what can you expect when we take the most important fitting parameter on "walk over" ? A few simple things everyone should now about club fitting.

- We always have to start with club length, and without that, we are not going to make it. Its not even a subject for debate, its simply the most important parameter, so if we dont do any ting about it, we can just as well forget the rest, because we are no longer into whats called a club fitting then.

By testing different shaft lengths, we wants to find the club length that gives you a comfortable stance where YOUR body can swing to its very best, and a length who fits your ability for eye to hand coordination. If you play standard length in your irons and thats correct for you, a driver between 43.50 and 44 inch is whats right for you. If you are a professional player and play standard, you MIGHT be able to handle a driver of up to 45 inch, but it would NOT be a optimized club.

The commercial try to tell us that we can hit longer with a light and long driver. Thats a truth with LARGE modifications.
- Only players who gain club speed, and maintain their PTR (Power transfer ratio), also known as smash factor, will gain, all others would not.

When we trace the correct shaft length, we look at PTR value, because the COR value of the face is variable, PTR value alone will tell us if we got impact within the sweet spot or not. PTR value should be 1:48 up to its max 1:50 when we have found the right shaft length, total weight, and SW balance. NOW its time to look on launch and spin.

PS! The optimized PTR value of 1:50 is only for drivers and woods. When loft goes up, we use more enegry for spin, and less for ballspeed, so PTR will drop by nature so its noting wrong if you cant get 1:50 on your #6 iron, you want be able to either.

Ball speed / Club speed = PTR
150 Mph / 100 Mph = 1.50 - max

Your smash factor is in the 1:40 area and from 100 Mph club speed, that give only 140 Mph ball speed and you loose a bit more than 2 yards carry for each mile ball speed, so here is 20 yards, just from improving PTR value, and then we get started......

Spin values is very different depending on where on the face you got impact, and outside the sweetspot area, spin value will be crazy, so its NOT you who have a spin problem, you have a impact spot problem, but thats what we should take care of by a good club fitting, but the place you where did not know how to get you there. It tells me they are doing trial and error and hope for a miracle, and thats got nothing to do with club fitting.

We have something called GEAR EFFECT on a club face, and we also have "Bulge and Roll" who is the curves you can see from heel to toe, or sole to crown. On a modern driver, Center of Gravity is way back in the club head, and the further away from the impact spot, the larger is the gear effect.

http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402315

The gear effect works like this:
- If impact is Heel side, the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" against the Toe side, causing a fade or worse a slice
- If impact is Toe side, the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" against the Heel side, causing a draw or worse a hook
- If impact is below center line of the face,the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" up against the crown, causing more backspin, but a lower flight because loft is lower below center line.
- If impact is above center line of the face,the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" down against the sole, causing less backspin, but a higher flight because loft is higher above center line.

Here is gear effect shown on a FLAT vs a Bulged club face
Bulge is a ANTI Gear effect design
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402316

Here is gear effect shown as effect for height and spin if hit lower or higher than centerline.
Again the curve from sole to crown is a ANTI gear effect design
(ROLL is correct name, i just used the same photo)
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402317

A good club fittings #1 task is to optimize PTR value, not only to get maximized ball speed and distance, but also to prevent unwanted spin and flight pattern caused by gear effects when impact is outside sweet spot.

You can test all the shafts as X flex this world got to offer without improving anything, YOU HAVE TO start by finding what shaft length, and total weight and SW balance is right for you, then the fitting can move on, NOT before.

Edited by Howard Jones, 22 February 2013 - 03:00 AM.


#9 jaskanski

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:51 AM

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

View Postjaskanski, on 22 February 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?


With those numbers, probably a banjo.
Seriously though, with a smash factor of around 1.40 (pretty bad for a 5 index) and those spin figures (assuming they are accurate) you are nowhere near a good fit in terms of shaft or head.
It's probably just as well you didn't get a recommendation, because those figures (to me) would be a sign to get a second opinion from a certified professional, before attempting to test the water on aftermarket equipment. It'll save you money, honestly.

Sorry I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?


Are you saying the numbers from the trackman could be skewed? I was under the impression a 1.40 smash factor was relatively decent..1.50 is perfect right? I mean it could be better, but for not swinging for 3 months prior to the fitting it seemed OK.  
My ball speed isn't tremendously low or anything and I felt like i was making pretty solid contact. I'm just trying to get my spin down.

That's partly what I'm saying. Golf stores are notorious for inaccurate LM readings hence they should be taken with a pinch of salt.
However, if are are proven to be accurate, I doubt a single component will correct those figures - ie you have an underlying swing issue.

#10 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:09 AM

Wow thanks for the thorough write up Howard. I certainly wasn't fitted to that extent. I very well may have an impact problem, my backspin numbers are obviously WAY to high and I do play a slight fade as my normal ball flight. Shaft length sounds like a good starting point...I'll just have to try to find a somewhat local place that offers a fitting service even remotely that in-depth. Thanks for the write up!


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#11 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:11 AM

@Jas my friend.....the player might have a perfect swing, but if shaft length is wrong, impact pattern will be "all over the face" causing large variables we on the paper might address to the player, but its a simple miss fit in shaft length.

#12 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:20 AM

View Postjaskanski, on 22 February 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

View Postjaskanski, on 22 February 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?


With those numbers, probably a banjo.
Seriously though, with a smash factor of around 1.40 (pretty bad for a 5 index) and those spin figures (assuming they are accurate) you are nowhere near a good fit in terms of shaft or head.
It's probably just as well you didn't get a recommendation, because those figures (to me) would be a sign to get a second opinion from a certified professional, before attempting to test the water on aftermarket equipment. It'll save you money, honestly.

Sorry I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at?


Are you saying the numbers from the trackman could be skewed? I was under the impression a 1.40 smash factor was relatively decent..1.50 is perfect right? I mean it could be better, but for not swinging for 3 months prior to the fitting it seemed OK.  
My ball speed isn't tremendously low or anything and I felt like i was making pretty solid contact. I'm just trying to get my spin down.
That's partly what I'm saying. Golf stores are notorious for inaccurate LM readings hence they should be taken with a pinch of salt.
However, if are are proven to be accurate, I doubt a single component will correct those figures - ie you have an underlying swing issue.


There very well could be some discrepancy with the Trackman...I was just copying the numbers I got from the print out they gave me.
There may be some underlying swing issues and I've been working on coming at the ball a little flatter, but I'm really just looking for something to take the spin numbers down at least somewhat and give me some roll out. I'm relatively happy with my average driving distance, but certainly think I could get more out of it with those swing speed numbers.

#13 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:25 AM

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Wow thanks for the thorough write up Howard. I certainly wasn't fitted to that extent. I very well may have an impact problem, my backspin numbers are obviously WAY to high and I do play a slight fade as my normal ball flight. Shaft length sounds like a good starting point...I'll just have to try to find a somewhat local place that offers a fitting service even remotely that in-depth. Thanks for the write up!

Fade without purpose with high spin and low flight is impact heel side below center line.
- The idiot club fitter would give up or try shaft until you are worn out without solving the problem, and most of you folks got brains enough to do your own club fitting to a much higher level, even without a launch monitor, and i tell you how right now.

Here is a method to find the right club length and swing weight, without seeing a shop.
#1 - Get a white board pen, some graffa tape, and a few coins. (dimes is nice)
- Mark the ball with a dot, facing sweet spot at address
- Hit a few ball and look for impact mark.
- Against the heel side - Shaft is too long
- All over the face - Shaft is too long
- Out against the toe mostly - Shaft is to short
- Sweet spots more than 70 %, about maximum club length (within 3/4 of an inch large circle)

- To simulate different club lengths, put a 1/2 inch wide piece of tape on top of your grip, as you "chopped" that part of.
- Take your grip lower than the tape, and hit another ball - Look for impact marks.
- If your club head becomes to light (no control), put a peace of tape on the butt of your club head (to protect it from scratches), then put a coin on the tape, and seal it with some tape on top of it.
- A dime is a "dust" more than 2 grams, who equals to 1 Swing weight point
- Gripping down 0.5 will give the feeling of loosing 3 Swing weight points / 6 grams  / 3 x a dime from the club head.
But don't "trust" the standard value of the club to be right for you. Don't be afraid to try both higher and lower swing weight than standard to find YOURS.

- Remember when you grip down, grip size goes down, and your grip might become to "tight".
If you start with a driver of 46.50 and it seems like 44.00 is where you going, grip size during this test will be difficult, but since you already have decided to cut it down, get a cheap extra grip and do like this.

Cut of the old grip of your driver
Mark the old shaft but for cut down, (46.50 -44 = 2.5) DONT CUT
Cut the grip cap of the cheap test grip so there is a hole straight trough
Add the desired amount of build up tape to your grip size, but remember to add it below the cut down mark
Put on the cheap test grip, and place it on the shaft so the intended cut of comes out of the grip end.
Now you can test the club with a comfortable grip at the "new club length" and still have full return, so you cant mess it up.

The absolute optimal impact spot on the face is here shown with a smiley
- At this spot club speed is a bit higher than center of the face, and vertical gear affect plus more loft will help to get a "high launch lower spin" flight with extreme ball speed.

http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402246

TOTAL WEIGHT
Total weight is also VERY important. If club balance feels right, you can test a higher total weight as if you went up in shaft weight only, by adding weight 14 inch down from the butt of the club. Weight you add here will not change the balance feel of the club, only total weight, so if you add 10 grams, its just the feel you will have by using a identical shaft with 10 grams more shaft weight, like Diamana 60S vs 70S

FLEX
If you when testing find out that the club becomes to soft, when adding the desired weight to the club head, and the club was OK flex wise as it was, then use the "Wood/weight/tip trim" method below to calculate the need for tip trim to make the shaft to perform as close as possible as before cut down.

How to cut the shaft
All shafts is different, but since drivers and woods is sharing the same shaft, think about a wood for a moment. A 3W got a play length more like a good driver should have been, and how do we trim and install a shaft for a wood ?

As a rule of thumb we tip trim woods, not only to make them shorter, but we tip trim to stiffen op the shaft when head weight goes up, so if we make us self a chart of "regular head weight" and corresponding tip trim by using the manufacturers trim charts, you will have a good idea of how the shaft should be trimmed when cut down, and weight is added to the head.

Since tip trim instructions vary from shaft to shaft model, please DONT use this chart before you have checked tip trim instructions for your shaft, because it might be other instructions from the manufacturer.
Club - Head weight - Tip trim (NOT all shaft, so check yours)

Driver - 198 grams - 0 tip trim
3W - 208 grams - 0.5 tip trim
5W - 218 grams - 1.0 tip trim
7W - 228 grams - 1.5 tip trim

10 grams added head weight on woods = 0.5 tip trim, but only as general guideline, so see the shaft manufacturers page, and measure twice, cut once. Use that as a rule of thumb when you cut down a driver, and want to keep the shaft close to its original specs if you dont have the option of measure the shaft or have it done by a professional.

Good luck!

Edited by Howard Jones, 22 February 2013 - 03:41 AM.


#14 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:34 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 22 February 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Wow thanks for the thorough write up Howard. I certainly wasn't fitted to that extent. I very well may have an impact problem, my backspin numbers are obviously WAY to high and I do play a slight fade as my normal ball flight. Shaft length sounds like a good starting point...I'll just have to try to find a somewhat local place that offers a fitting service even remotely that in-depth. Thanks for the write up!

Fade without purpose with high spin and low flight is impact heel side below center line.
- The idiot club fitter would give up or try shaft until you are worn out without solving the problem, and most of you folks got brains enough to do your own club fitting to a much higher level, even without a launch monitor, and i tell you how right now.

Here is a method to find the right club length and swing weight, without seeing a shop.
#1 - Get a white board pen, some graffa tape, and a few coins. (dimes is nice)
- Mark the ball with a dot, facing sweet spot at address
- Hit a few ball and look for impact mark.
- Against the heel side - Shaft is too long
- All over the face - Shaft is too long
- Out against the toe mostly - Shaft is to short
- Sweet spots more than 70 %, about maximum club length (within 3/4 of an inch large circle)

- To simulate different club lengths, put a 1/2 inch wide piece of tape on top of your grip, as you "chopped" that part of.
- Take your grip lower than the tape, and hit another ball - Look for impact marks.
- If your club head becomes to light (no control), put a peace of tape on the butt of your club head (to protect it from scratches), then put a coin on the tape, and seal it with some tape on top of it.
- A dime is a "dust" more than 2 grams, who equals to 1 Swing weight point
- Gripping down 0.5 will give the feeling of loosing 3 Swing weight points / 6 grams  / 3 x a dime from the club head.
But don't "trust" the standard value of the club to be right for you. Don't be afraid to try both higher and lower swing weight than standard to find YOURS.

- Remember when you grip down, grip size goes down, and your grip might become to "tight".
If you start with a driver of 46.50 and it seems like 44.00 is where you going, grip size during this test will be difficult, but since you already have decided to cut it down, get a cheap extra grip and do like this.

Cut of the old grip of your driver
Mark the old shaft but for cut down, (46.50 -44 = 2.5) DONT CUT
Cut the grip cap of the cheap test grip so there is a hole straight trough
Add the desired amount of build up tape to your grip size, but remember to add it below the cut down mark
Put on the cheap test grip, and place it on the shaft so the intended cut of comes out of the grip end.
Now you can test the club with a comfortable grip at the "new club length" and still have full return, so you cant mess it up.

The absolute optimal impact spot on the face is here shown with a smiley
- It this spot club speed is a bit higher than center of the face, and vertical gear affect plus mor loft wil help to get a "high launch lower spin" flight with extreme ball speed.

http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402246


If you when testing find out that the club becomes to soft, when adding the desired weight to the club head, and the club was OK flex wise as it was, then use the "Wood/weight/tip trim" method below to calculate the need for tip trim to make the shaft to perform as close as possible as before cut down.

How to cut the shaft
All shafts is different, but since drivers and woods is sharing the same shaft, think about a wood for a moment. A 3W got a play length more like a good driver should have been, and how do we trim and install a shaft for a wood ?

As a rule of thumb we tip trim woods, not only to make them shorter, but we tip trim to stiffen op the shaft when head weight goes up, so if we make us self a chart of "regular head weight" and corresponding tip trim by using the manufacturers trim charts, you will have a good idea of how the shaft should be trimmed when cut down, and weight is added to the head.

Since tip trim instructions vary from shaft to shaft model, please DONT use this chart before you have checked tip trim instructions for your shaft, because it might be other instructions from the manufacturer.
Club - Head weight - Tip trim (NOT all shaft, so check yours)

Driver - 198 grams - 0 tip trim
3W - 208 grams - 0.5 tip trim
5W - 218 grams - 1.0 tip trim
7W - 228 grams - 1.5 tip trim

10 grams added head weight on woods = 0.5 tip trim, but only as general guideline, so see the shaft manufacturers page, and measure twice, cut once. Use that as a rule of thumb when you cut down a driver, and want to keep the shaft close to its original specs if you dont have the option of measure the shaft or have it done by a professional.

Good luck!

Very helpful..I will certainly try this. Thank you! :ok:

#15 RogerinNewZealand

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:54 AM

To Mr Howard Jones, thankyou sir, for the most detailed explanation of How to be Fit for a Club i have read and been able to understand !  I play shorted clubs...........
I recently swapped Modern Driver to Old, for the Easy to hit Sweetspot Contact i was
missing, 910d3 back to  MP 001 Mizuno...  Thanks for sharing Where the Spin comes from!!  That made a big impact on me.

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#16 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:23 AM

View PostRogerinNewZealand, on 22 February 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

To Mr Howard Jones, thankyou sir, for the most detailed explanation of How to be Fit for a Club i have read and been able to understand !  I play shorted clubs...........
I recently swapped Modern Driver to Old, for the Easy to hit Sweetspot Contact i was
missing, 910d3 back to  MP 001 Mizuno...  Thanks for sharing Where the Spin comes from!!  That made a big impact on me.

Im just glad to be able to spread the word about how it should be done, because many let them self be fooled by "smoke and mirrors" and nice conversations, while what they came for is not what they got, a club thats fitted right for them.

Ive had a larger "how to fit your own clubs" in the writing for some time now, but am the type that never get satisfied with my own work, i always see a lot of possible improvements, so it takes time to make something like this, and make it in a language the regular golfer understand.

There is no doubt that Launch monitors has improves Club fitting in general, but there is hardly any shop who owns one ho knows how to change equipment parameters to make improvements for the player, and thats a big shame, because this can be done "low tech" for no investment costs at all, it simply lack of knowledge.

Take a very good brand as Titleist as an example. If you look at their options for shaft lengths, you will find out that they know what this is all about, but why have their dealers only the longest options for testing and in their racks when there is better odds for 9 out of 10 when we go shorter than 45 ?

Maximum club speed IS NOT made with the lightest and longest legal club you can buy, but the club with a length and resistance that give you and your body mechanics the best match. To light and you will have to slow down, to heavy and you will struggle, and if you have a friend watching, let him pay attention to your rear shoulder at release. You might not notice, but if the club is to heavy your rear shoulder will fall, down and its visible for the eye, you dont even need high speed video to see it.

All this long known stuff in club fitting seems to be forgotten knowledge, because all they look at is monitor numbers, and they dont even understand how to read them, and they forget to watch the player swing the clubs.

Edited by Howard Jones, 22 February 2013 - 04:26 AM.


#17 jaskanski

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:34 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 22 February 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

@Jas my friend.....the player might have a perfect swing, but if shaft length is wrong, impact pattern will be "all over the face" causing large variables we on the paper might address to the player, but its a simple miss fit in shaft length.

Point taken Howard, but I seriously doubt an incorrect length leading to poor contact is solely to blame for a whopping 6000rpm - gear effect or no gear effect. Without looking at the bigger picture, it's nigh on impossible to pinpoint the root cause of these reading at low PTR. Poor contact is probably systemic to bad readings, but not to the kind of levels given here if you assume the club is square into impact. And as we've already said, if you assume the LM readings are correct.
I'd  ask the OP what their normal shot shape was - if it were 250 yards and straight with rollout, there's no way those readings have any credence.

Edited by jaskanski, 22 February 2013 - 04:38 AM.


#18 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:07 AM

View Postjaskanski, on 22 February 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 22 February 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

@Jas my friend.....the player might have a perfect swing, but if shaft length is wrong, impact pattern will be "all over the face" causing large variables we on the paper might address to the player, but its a simple miss fit in shaft length.
Point taken Howard, but I seriously doubt an incorrect length leading to poor contact is solely to blame for a whopping 6000rpm - gear effect or no gear effect. Without looking at the bigger picture, it's nigh on impossible to pinpoint the root cause of these reading at low PTR. Poor contact is probably systemic to bad readings, but not to the kind of levels given here if you assume the club is square into impact. And as we've already said, if you assume the LM readings are correct.
I'd  ask the OP what their normal shot shape was - if it were 250 yards and straight with rollout, there's no way those readings have any credence.

Oh yeas, we are online here, there is both possible LM set up errors, Players swing faults, or club misfit, and maybe all of them together, so the debate is highly theoretical to the possibilities, and whats most common, but if shaft length is not into it, its the first to eliminate, because wrong shaft length itself causes swing faults.

Edited by Howard Jones, 22 February 2013 - 05:08 AM.


#19 Deano802

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:14 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 22 February 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

View Postdivotdog24, on 22 February 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

As the title implies, today I went down to my local fitting center/golf shop trying to get fit for a new shaft and driver. I left empty handed and a little discouraged... and now turn to the wrx for ideas.

I hit every X-flex shaft they could find to throw in there and nothing seemed to help my off the wall spin rates. Part of the problem may have been the shops shaft options (or lack thereof). It was pretty much limited to all the available offerings from the big names (Titleist, Cally, Taylor etc..). The closest I had to a fit was the Fuji Rombax X 75..but the spin was still consistently around 4000..which was still too high for me to justify.

I know there's probably tons of options out there that would fit the bill, but as college kid with loans I can't drop $250+ on just a shaft.
The Proforce V2 67g looked interesting. I can't seem to find a GD Tour AD Throttle in an X flex anywhere, but that looked like it could possibly work.

My numbers off the Trackman were-

Avg. Swing Speed: 110-120
Avg Ball Speed: 155-170
Avg. Launch Angle: 12 degrees
Back Spin: 4500-6000 RPM (YIKES!!)

I'm a 5 handicap.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could try to pick up?
I'm hesitant buying something before hitting it, but the only fitting center around is the one I already tried out.

Thanks!

Sometimes i wants to cry when i read about how STUPID club fitters around really is, and they call them self Club fitters and professionals, but there seems to be a very long distance between those ho actually knows how to fit a club and those who dont.

#1 in club fitting is shaft length, and its not even a subject here, and it hardly is in OEM fitting, so what can you expect when we take the most important fitting parameter on "walk over" ? A few simple things everyone should now about club fitting.

- We always have to start with club length, and without that, we are not going to make it. Its not even a subject for debate, its simply the most important parameter, so if we dont do any ting about it, we can just as well forget the rest, because we are no longer into whats called a club fitting then.

By testing different shaft lengths, we wants to find the club length that gives you a comfortable stance where YOUR body can swing to its very best, and a length who fits your ability for eye to hand coordination. If you play standard length in your irons and thats correct for you, a driver between 43.50 and 44 inch is whats right for you. If you are a professional player and play standard, you MIGHT be able to handle a driver of up to 45 inch, but it would NOT be a optimized club.

The commercial try to tell us that we can hit longer with a light and long driver. Thats a truth with LARGE modifications.
- Only players who gain club speed, and maintain their PTR (Power transfer ratio), also known as smash factor, will gain, all others would not.

When we trace the correct shaft length, we look at PTR value, because the COR value of the face is variable, PTR value alone will tell us if we got impact within the sweet spot or not. PTR value should be 1:48 up to its max 1:50 when we have found the right shaft length, total weight, and SW balance. NOW its time to look on launch and spin.

PS! The optimized PTR value of 1:50 is only for drivers and woods. When loft goes up, we use more enegry for spin, and less for ballspeed, so PTR will drop by nature so its noting wrong if you cant get 1:50 on your #6 iron, you want be able to either.

Ball speed / Club speed = PTR
150 Mph / 100 Mph = 1.50 - max

Your smash factor is in the 1:40 area and from 100 Mph club speed, that give only 140 Mph ball speed and you loose a bit more than 2 yards carry for each mile ball speed, so here is 20 yards, just from improving PTR value, and then we get started......

Spin values is very different depending on where on the face you got impact, and outside the sweetspot area, spin value will be crazy, so its NOT you who have a spin problem, you have a impact spot problem, but thats what we should take care of by a good club fitting, but the place you where did not know how to get you there. It tells me they are doing trial and error and hope for a miracle, and thats got nothing to do with club fitting.

We have something called GEAR EFFECT on a club face, and we also have "Bulge and Roll" who is the curves you can see from heel to toe, or sole to crown. On a modern driver, Center of Gravity is way back in the club head, and the further away from the impact spot, the larger is the gear effect.

http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402315

The gear effect works like this:
- If impact is Heel side, the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" against the Toe side, causing a fade or worse a slice
- If impact is Toe side, the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" against the Heel side, causing a draw or worse a hook
- If impact is below center line of the face,the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" up against the crown, causing more backspin, but a lower flight because loft is lower below center line.
- If impact is above center line of the face,the ball will be forced to "roll/spin" down against the sole, causing less backspin, but a higher flight because loft is higher above center line.

Here is gear effect shown on a FLAT vs a Bulged club face
Bulge is a ANTI Gear effect design
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402316

Here is gear effect shown as effect for height and spin if hit lower or higher than centerline.
Again the curve from sole to crown is a ANTI gear effect design
(ROLL is correct name, i just used the same photo)
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402317

A good club fittings #1 task is to optimize PTR value, not only to get maximized ball speed and distance, but also to prevent unwanted spin and flight pattern caused by gear effects when impact is outside sweet spot.

You can test all the shafts as X flex this world got to offer without improving anything, YOU HAVE TO start by finding what shaft length, and total weight and SW balance is right for you, then the fitting can move on, NOT before.

I wish I could be fit by someone that is as knowledgeable and as detailed as you, where are you based? I think you are in Scandinavia somewhere (must be very cold at the moment!), do you have a website?

If I had some spare I would get a cheap flight from London and come and see you!

#20 jaskanski

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:15 AM

True dat


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#21 WT Door

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:36 AM

Howard - superb, thank you.

On your 'smiley' face attachment regarding max PTR, I understand the 'above center' aspect but not the slightly toe side aspect.  I read your stuff twice and couldn't find an explanation.  Would you mind expanding on that?  If it's in the previous stuff and I missed it I apologize.

                                                                                                            WITB Link


#22 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:45 AM

@Deano802

Im not a sponsor of this forum, so im not in title to use it for commercial purpose, and i try not to like responding to your question, but you will find me on both the Club fitter locators below, and i suggest you use them when you look for a club fitter in your area, and they are available for you in the UK.

http://performancefi...hp?j=locatorint

http://wishongolf.co...d-a-clubfitter/

Just remember to ask a lot of questions BEFORE you make the appointment
- Is there different shaft lengths options ready for testing, and what lengths is there in the expected flex range ?
- Indoor or out door ? is real gamer ball in use, or do you have to bring your own if you want to do the test with gamer balls?
- What launch monitor. Trackman or Flightscope, all others is not good enough for a HIGH END club fitting
- Do they have their own workshop to modify clubs to specs, like adding hot melt to the head ?

There is NO WAY to fit you to a driver in 60 minutes from start to the end, so if you want the best, and its "the regular 1 hour in Trackman fitting" they got to offer, it better be a fitter with so strong recs, you cant go anywhere else, because he must be extremely good as a fitter to make it in that time, and we only have about 60-70 good shots "in us" in a session like this, so save your power and use your energy right and natural like out on the course. After this numbers of shots in such a short time, we are drained for energy and starts to make different swing faults

#23 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:56 AM

View PostWT Door, on 22 February 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Howard - superb, thank you.

On your 'smiley' face attachment regarding max PTR, I understand the 'above center' aspect but not the slightly toe side aspect.  I read your stuff twice and couldn't find an explanation.  Would you mind expanding on that?  If it's in the previous stuff and I missed it I apologize.

OK, here is a "improved model" where the hole sweet spot area where COR value and PTR value is at the max, and COG is the very center of the sweet spot. It vary from head to head but expect sweet spot it to be 3/4 of an inch wide in diameter.
( My model is not correctly scaled, Sweet spot is not that large, but you understand better what i mean with over center line, toe side)

http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402506

#24 WT Door

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:16 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 22 February 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

OK, here is a "improved model" where the hole sweet spot area where COR value and PTR value is at the max, and COG is the very center of the sweet spot. It vary from head to head but expect sweet spot it to be 3/4 of an inch wide in diameter. ( My model is not correctly scaled, Sweet spot is not that large, but you understand better what i mean with over center line, toe side) http://peecee.dk/upload/view/402506

Howard, thank you again.  I think that was being too literal with the exact location of the 'smiley' mark in the first example when in fact you meant to indicate a small area generally in the vicinity of the center of the clubface.

                                                                                                            WITB Link


#25 esketores

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:30 AM

What a great thread.
Thanks Mr. Jones for sharing the insight. :yes:

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#26 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:48 AM

Anyone here care to know what driver head and loft he is using before coming up with all these "fixes"? IIRC, they DO have a little to do with spin these days.

OP, care to enlighten us?

BT
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#27 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 22 February 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Anyone here care to know what driver head and loft he is using before coming up with all these "fixes"? IIRC, they DO have a little to do with spin these days.

OP, care to enlighten us?

BT

I did not know they made drivers with lofts so high that 6000 Rpm was expected :-) (thats a #6 iron my friend)

#28 divotdog24

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:55 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 22 February 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Anyone here care to know what driver head and loft he is using before coming up with all these "fixes"? IIRC, they DO have a little to do with spin these days.

OP, care to enlighten us?

BT

Most of those numbers came from the 913 D2 at 8.5 degrees in mostly the D1 setting. I tried the Cally Razr Fit Xtreme in 8.5 and the new Taylormade R1 at 8 degrees both at neutral settings.

All of the heads had similar numbers as far as spin goes. The lowest was the Cally, but was still way too high for me to consider buying.

I'm currently gaming a 909D2 8.5 with a GD YS-6+ in X. There was almost no difference in numbers between my 909 and the 913. The Taylor was a little longer and the Cally had a little less spin..but like I said...it was still out of control.

#29 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

Mr. Jones, can you recommend someone close to Memphis TN that can give a proper fitting as you describe? I thoroughly enjoyed your posts in this thread and I learned something today, thanks.

#30 Howard Jones

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:51 PM

There is Tom Wishon fitter there, but i dont know them
http://www.linktothe...tting_Fees.html


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