14 replies to this topic

[W4LWQ]

What the "groove" issue is all about on the face of irons. No cut and paste of the rule book just a quick explanation please.

[knockdstiff]

I'm not sure if a non-technical explanation exists - it has to do with limiting the width of each groove, the frequency of grooves, and total volume of each groove as well.

I think tests have shown that from a good lie in the fairway, there wasn't much difference between "older" V grooves and newer "U grooves" - the concern was that pre-2010 grooves performed too well out of rough (particularly wet rough) - the additional volume of the grooves enabled blades of grass and water to be swept aside and thus cleaner contact between the face of the club and the ball.

If you want to know more than that you, need to get technical with it. The USGA, being the USGA, made the new regs as convoluted and ineffective as possible.

[Dpavs]

I think this excerpt explained it best for me;

"The width and cross-section, according to the rules, “must be consistent” across the face of the club and along the length of the grooves. In other words, grooves can’t be slanted one way or the other to affect spin, nor can they be of inconsistent spacing." -Terry Koehler
Article: Setting the Facts Straight On Grooves on Not allowed because of spam

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

The idiots at USGA think they can force the Phil Mickelsons of the world to bunt the ball around like Calvin Peete by making him play grooves that won't spin the ball from the rough so he is scared spitless of missing a fairway.

Of course the same clubhead speed that lets him hit 230 yard 4-irons also lets him spin the ball plenty with the new grooves. Not to mention the ball makers adding spin to the Tour balls. So these guys play same game, different clubs. So USGA moves on to banning long putters. Then on to cord grips or whatever their next hard-on is about.

[Vindog]

they cut the volume, made the grooves angled at the sides and gave the edges a radius instead of a corner.

Joe Amateur won't have to use them until 2024, but oems cant make any more old groove glubs.

Edited by Vindog, 22 February 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[RJRJRJ]

Basically the grooves are smaller in volume, and not as sharp on the edges.  Somebody can correct me if im wrong, but thats been my basic understanding.

[Joey76]

Am i an idiot for asking why do they wont to limit the spin pros get?

[Newby]

It's too easy for them to hold the ball on the green when they are hitting a wedge from virtually anywhere within 150 yds, regardless of the ground the ball is lying on.

[Joey76]

just seems like a tug-o-war.



they change the grooves and ball companies will find something to negate the change....


back and forth....

[Sawgrass]

Joey76, on 23 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Am i an idiot for asking why do they wont to limit the spin pros get?

No, sir.  You are not an idiot.

Another reasonable question is, did they actually achieve anything valuable for having tried?

[mark m]

The reason was to reward a player for hitting the fairway. You could spin the ball much better using the old grooves from the rough. This change really only affected better players using a softer cover ball. If you use a surlyn cover ball - those don't spin much either way - so the rule change didn't matter for many in the golfing population.

Scoring averages haven't changed on the tour - but that doesn't say much. Course set-up and conditions change each year on tour. Many of the tour courses don't have difficult rough - they want the guys to go low. Even the US open has gone to a more gradual rough set-up on there courses since Mike Davis took things over. That could be different this year because Merion is shorter in length than the courses that have hosted recently. We shall see.

Based on my TV viewing and from what I've read, tour player have adjusted well when they are in wedge range. They play more loft to make it stop. But hitting mid or long irons is a different story. The players tend to take a more conservative approach - towards green openings or the fat of the green - than they used to. You see them weigh it all out more and most are less aggressive as the ball just doesn't stop as quickly - particularily if the greens are firm. Being 170+ out in the rough with a pin over a bunker 4 yards and a firm green - makes par a good score.

There are just too many variables to make a good comparison year over year. The weather is different each year leading up to a tournament. Hole lengths, hole locations, rough thickness and height, temperature, wind, fairway width and firmness, etc etc. Just pay attention on the longer shots to how the ball reacts when landing on firm greens from the rough versus the fairway. It has made a difference IMO.

[nochct1]

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 21 February 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

The idiots at USGA think they can force the Phil Mickelsons of the world to bunt the ball around like Calvin Peete by making him play grooves that won't spin the ball from the rough so he is scared spitless of missing a fairway.

Of course the same clubhead speed that lets him hit 230 yard 4-irons also lets him spin the ball plenty with the new grooves. Not to mention the ball makers adding spin to the Tour balls. So these guys play same game, different clubs. So USGA moves on to banning long putters. Then on to cord grips or whatever their next hard-on is about.

That's why they should have a tour ball and then a ball for everyone else. Tour players play a different game then the everyday golfer.

[Sawgrass]

nochct1, on 24 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 21 February 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

The idiots at USGA think they can force the Phil Mickelsons of the world to bunt the ball around like Calvin Peete by making him play grooves that won't spin the ball from the rough so he is scared spitless of missing a fairway.

Of course the same clubhead speed that lets him hit 230 yard 4-irons also lets him spin the ball plenty with the new grooves. Not to mention the ball makers adding spin to the Tour balls. So these guys play same game, different clubs. So USGA moves on to banning long putters. Then on to cord grips or whatever their next hard-on is about.

That's why they should have a tour ball and then a ball for everyone else. Tour players play a different game then the everyday golfer.

I suppose that having a "tour ball" condition of competition (rather than a rule) and a "no anchored stroke" condition of competition (rather than a rule) would allow us all to move forward with minimal fuss and without having to officially have different rules for pros and ams.  Much like currently exists with the PGA Tour's requirement for grooves, prohibition of carts and prohibition against wearing shorts. If we amateurs want to play "their way" we could simply buy a ball, walk that day, and slide into a pair of pants, all the while taking whatever satisfaction one might take from "playing by the same rules."

[nochct1]

Sawgrass, on 24 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

nochct1, on 24 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 21 February 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

The idiots at USGA think they can force the Phil Mickelsons of the world to bunt the ball around like Calvin Peete by making him play grooves that won't spin the ball from the rough so he is scared spitless of missing a fairway.

Of course the same clubhead speed that lets him hit 230 yard 4-irons also lets him spin the ball plenty with the new grooves. Not to mention the ball makers adding spin to the Tour balls. So these guys play same game, different clubs. So USGA moves on to banning long putters. Then on to cord grips or whatever their next hard-on is about.

That's why they should have a tour ball and then a ball for everyone else. Tour players play a different game then the everyday golfer.

I suppose that having a "tour ball" condition of competition (rather than a rule) and a "no anchored stroke" condition of competition (rather than a rule) would allow us all to move forward with minimal fuss and without having to officially have different rules for pros and ams.  Much like currently exists with the PGA Tour's requirement for grooves, prohibition of carts and prohibition against wearing shorts. If we amateurs want to play "their way" we could simply buy a ball, walk that day, and slide into a pair of pants, all the while taking whatever satisfaction one might take from "playing by the same rules."

Yeah, I think the problem is the wanna-be tour pros who think they MUST play the exact same game as the pros. The reality is that tour pros are so much better than the every day golfer, that its time to have some new conditions of competition. If someone insists on playing the same ball as a tour pro, then they can. Maybe then we can stop renovating great golf courses and instead make the game more affordable.

[W4LWQ]

nochct1, on 24 February 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Sawgrass, on 24 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

nochct1, on 24 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 21 February 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

The idiots at USGA think they can force the Phil Mickelsons of the world to bunt the ball around like Calvin Peete by making him play grooves that won't spin the ball from the rough so he is scared spitless of missing a fairway.

Of course the same clubhead speed that lets him hit 230 yard 4-irons also lets him spin the ball plenty with the new grooves. Not to mention the ball makers adding spin to the Tour balls. So these guys play same game, different clubs. So USGA moves on to banning long putters. Then on to cord grips or whatever their next hard-on is about.

That's why they should have a tour ball and then a ball for everyone else. Tour players play a different game then the everyday golfer.

I suppose that having a "tour ball" condition of competition (rather than a rule) and a "no anchored stroke" condition of competition (rather than a rule) would allow us all to move forward with minimal fuss and without having to officially have different rules for pros and ams.  Much like currently exists with the PGA Tour's requirement for grooves, prohibition of carts and prohibition against wearing shorts. If we amateurs want to play "their way" we could simply buy a ball, walk that day, and slide into a pair of pants, all the while taking whatever satisfaction one might take from "playing by the same rules."

Yeah, I think the problem is the wanna-be tour pros who think they MUST play the exact same game as the pros. The reality is that tour pros are so much better than the every day golfer, that its time to have some new conditions of competition. If someone insists on playing the same ball as a tour pro, then they can. Maybe then we can stop renovating great golf courses and instead make the game more affordable.

I'll drink to that.