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Shallowing shaft on downswing drills


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#1 CosmosMpower

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:17 PM

What are some drills to learn how to properly shallow the plane of the shaft on the downswing?  Watching my videos compared to most pros I'm missing the transition that shallows the shaft and drops the club to the inside.  On video it looks like their right elbow drops to the hip and the clubhead almost comes from behind them to square into impact.  How does one achieve that move?

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#2 Sabre3

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:43 PM

Monte's videos on bump dump and turn and how to cure OTT might speak to you.

#3 russc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostCosmosMpower, on 12 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

What are some drills to learn how to properly shallow the plane of the shaft on the downswing?  Watching my videos compared to most pros I'm missing the transition that shallows the shaft and drops the club to the inside.  On video it looks like their right elbow drops to the hip and the clubhead almost comes from behind them to square into impact.  How does one achieve that move?
You are getting into one of the most important and difficult parts of the golf swing.Shallowing the shaft can be done in  2 main ways.Shallowing via left forearm rotation going back and /or shallowing in transition.Shallowing in transition is more complicated because  it is happening so fast and other things are happening at about the same time.I discuss this in more detail on the 9-3 forum ,post # 7763

#4 tommykrebs

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostSabre3, on 12 February 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Monte's videos on bump dump and turn and how to cure OTT might speak to you.
There many "drop the hands/club behind you" video's out there. I practiced 3 month to let the club falling behind me. Without any success. What really helped is D.Whittaker's set up and deep hip turn. I always restricted my hip turn in the backswing. Apparently not a good thing.

Give it a try: Turn deep in the backswing, your tailbone towards the target. It helped me a lot



#5 verderraul

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

Its a hard move but achievable. However, it does not guarantee a shallow impact.

This is how i did it.

Extremely passive arms. Light grip pressure. Hands in front of the body on top of back swing. To initiate the downswing : Bump the left hip towards the target (assuming you are a righty) while the upper body stays back. Feel there is a string attached between your left hip and right elbow. As the left hip bumps towards the target....the string pulls the elbow towards the belly button.

Now do that a million times LOL


#6 360_CS

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:59 PM

^ Read a tip from Sergio and he said basically the same thing. He said, at the top of the backswing, feel like you are pulling down on a chain with your hands.

#7 verderraul

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:02 PM

View Post360_CS, on 12 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

^ Read a tip from Sergio and he said basically the same thing. He said, at the top of the backswing, feel like you are pulling down on a chain with your hands.

OP.....just don't translate this as "Pulling the handle" . Because that could be career ending :)

#8 russc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 06:02 PM

View Post360_CS, on 12 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

^ Read a tip from Sergio and he said basically the same thing. He said, at the top of the backswing, feel like you are pulling down on a chain with your hands.
Sergio is an interesting case in that he shallows the shaft the most of any player that i have seen  including Mr Hogan .Like most other pros he starts his lower body down as his upper body is still going back.He may feel that he is  pulling down with  his hands ,but because  he has already started down and started to rotate a small amount   this pulling is  not just down but a little forward towards the ball,ON PLANE.
The mistake that people make with this move is by trying to make this pulling down motion to initiate  the transition ,instead of  as a reaction to it .

Edited by russc, 12 February 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#9 mookie

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 06:02 PM

No help from me either.  Just wanted to say that I share in your struggle.  Watching video of myself, I notice my shaft at the top and into transition does not flatten either.  

I hate that Sergio move, however.  That led me to hit fatter than fat shots and people on the next fairway to the right.

Mark Crossfield has dedicated a bunch of vids about it on YouTube, and of course there's Monte's bump and dump and one of his recent ones about shifting the hands to the pocket.  Lightbulb hasn't gone off for me yet, but I know it's already helped more than a few...

#10 360_CS

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

View Postrussc, on 12 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

View Post360_CS, on 12 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

^ Read a tip from Sergio and he said basically the same thing. He said, at the top of the backswing, feel like you are pulling down on a chain with your hands.
Sergio is an interesting case in that he shallows the shaft the most of any player that i have seen  including Mr Hogan .Like most other pros he starts his lower body down as his upper body is still going back.He may feel that he is  pulling down with  his hands ,but because  he has already started down and started to rotate a small amount   this pulling is  not just down but a little forward towards the ball,ON PLANE.
The mistake that people make with this move is by trying to make this pulling down motion to initiate  the transition ,instead of  as a reaction to it .

Yea your definitely right. You can see in these clips () that he starts with the lower body and the hands drop down as a reaction to that. I guess the big word in that is feel. He probably just wants people to feel that the hands drop in the transition instead of coming over. But he still should of probably mention that the hips should start and the hands are just a sort of passenger, him being more of a feel player than a technical/mechanical player probably has something to do with it.

Edited by 360_CS, 12 February 2013 - 07:04 PM.


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#11 Jim Waldron

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:16 PM

The degree of ideal shallowing is somewhat deependent on your height. body type and Swing Style. But for most of my students, I like to see about a 5-10 degree of shaft flattening during Transition. That is coming from a good Top of backswing position on the Turned Shoulder Plane or very close to it. If the golfer is 6 feet or taller and fairly flexible, he will likely steepen the shaft plane during second of backswing and so need to shallow it on transition to compensate. Shorter stature golfers will not steepen as much or even at all and can keep the downswing shaft plane angle identical to or nearly so to the shaft plane angle at Address. Remember shaft plane and shaft plane angle are NOT the same thing. The plane angles can be identical but in two different locations in space, ie one higher than the other.

That 5-10 degrees of shaft angle flattening can come mostly from spine tilt during Transtion with no need to manipulate the arms or wrists.



#12 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:23 PM

The first thing you have to concern yourself with is there being no late arm lift in the backswing carrying the momentum steep.  If that is happening, no drill or amount of working on shallowing is going to help.

This may help some of you with this issue, or the issue of shallowing in general.


Edited by MonteScheinblum, 12 February 2013 - 07:25 PM.

Pulling the handle
I am so so steep
Shankopotomus finds me
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I am Gavrilo Princip

#13 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:26 PM

View Post360_CS, on 12 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

^ Read a tip from Sergio and he said basically the same thing. He said, at the top of the backswing, feel like you are pulling down on a chain with your hands.

Be careful with this.  It makes logical sense, but most people steepen the club doing this.
Pulling the handle
I am so so steep
Shankopotomus finds me
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I am Gavrilo Princip

#14 russc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

View Post360_CS, on 12 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

View Postrussc, on 12 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

View Post360_CS, on 12 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

^ Read a tip from Sergio and he said basically the same thing. He said, at the top of the backswing, feel like you are pulling down on a chain with your hands.
Sergio is an interesting case in that he shallows the shaft the most of any player that i have seen  including Mr Hogan .Like most other pros he starts his lower body down as his upper body is still going back.He may feel that he is  pulling down with  his hands ,but because  he has already started down and started to rotate a small amount   this pulling is  not just down but a little forward towards the ball,ON PLANE.
The mistake that people make with this move is by trying to make this pulling down motion to initiate  the transition ,instead of  as a reaction to it .

Yea your definitely right. You can see in these clips () that he starts with the lower body and the hands drop down as a reaction to that. I guess the big word in that is feel. He probably just wants people to feel that the hands drop in the transition instead of coming over. But he still should of probably mention that the hips should start and the hands are just a sort of passenger, him being more of a feel player than a technical/mechanical player probably has something to do with it.
I like your description as the hands being a passenger.With your permission I will use it in the future.

#15 russc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 February 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

The degree of ideal shallowing is somewhat deependent on your height. body type and Swing Style. But for most of my students, I like to see about a 5-10 degree of shaft flattening during Transition. That is coming from a good Top of backswing position on the Turned Shoulder Plane or very close to it. If the golfer is 6 feet or taller and fairly flexible, he will likely steepen the shaft plane during second of backswing and so need to shallow it on transition to compensate. Shorter stature golfers will not steepen as much or even at all and can keep the downswing shaft plane angle identical to or nearly so to the shaft plane angle at Address. Remember shaft plane and shaft plane angle are NOT the same thing. The plane angles can be identical but in two different locations in space, ie one higher than the other.

That 5-10 degrees of shaft angle flattening can come mostly from spine tilt during Transtion with no need to manipulate the arms or wrists.
Jim
What specifically do you mean by  spine tilt in transition


#16 CosmosMpower

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:30 PM

Here's a video of my swing with a few still I captured.  My instructors said the club is on plane because the clubhead passes through my hands on the way down more or less but the shaft is definitely steep and stays on the same plane the whole way through starting at the top.  The club head looks like it attacks the ball more from the back of the ball instead of from the left side of it.  I definitely have too inside of a takeaway but even when I have a more upright takeaway I find that in itself still doesn't drop the hands on the inside.  

There's got to be some way to get the hands down into the "slot" that I haven't discovered and I think until I do I'm stuck as a 8-10 HC.  From what I've seen comparing my video to pros videos it almost seems like my hands are going towards the target as I turn as a first move instead of shifting down and then going around to the target.  I need some help with a way to ingrain the feeling that the hands go down and not immediately to the ball.



Attached Thumbnails

  • swing.png
  • swing2.png

Edited by CosmosMpower, 12 February 2013 - 09:54 PM.

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#17 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

I am seeing something differently.  Sounds to me like they are judging plane in 2D and that just gives an incomplete analysis...but if you want to talk 2D plane, look at where the butt of the club points half way back.  About 2 feet outside the ball.  That is not on plane.

Your arm gets inside quickly, hands get deep early and the hands set late.  That will tell your body the club is layed off and it will want to steepen it on the way down.

If your left arm and hands work in front of you longer (up earlier) and your wrists set earlier, you will find it will be easier to shallow the shaft on the downswing.

Edited by MonteScheinblum, 12 February 2013 - 09:54 PM.

Pulling the handle
I am so so steep
Shankopotomus finds me
.
.
I am Gavrilo Princip

#18 CosmosMpower

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:57 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 12 February 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

I am seeing something differently.  Sounds to me like they are judging plane in 2D and that just gives an incomplete analysis...but if you want to talk 2D plane, look at where the butt of the club points half way back.  About 2 feet outside the ball.  That is not on plane.

Your arm gets inside quickly, hands get deep early and the hands set late.  That will tell your body the club is layed off and it will want to steepen it on the way down.

If your left arm and hands work in front of you longer (up earlier) and your wrists set earlier, you will find it will be easier to shallow the shaft on the downswing.

Thanks for the reply, been a big fan of your posts and blog.  I've tried fairly hard to get the club working more up and around instead of around and up but it's a bit difficult.  My takeaway used to be quite a bit more inside than it is now.

In order for me to get the club head going up through my hands in the backswing it feels like I'm almost lifting the club straight up off the ground.  When I'm able to do this (verified by video) I get to the top and still don't have a way to shallow the shaft plane out before starting the downswing which results in an OTT move.
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#19 gators78

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostCosmosMpower, on 12 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

What are some drills to learn how to properly shallow the plane of the shaft on the downswing?  Watching my videos compared to most pros I'm missing the transition that shallows the shaft and drops the club to the inside.  On video it looks like their right elbow drops to the hip and the clubhead almost comes from behind them to square into impact.  How does one achieve that move?

I'll ask what may be a really stupid question, but I can think of at least 10 Tour players that come over the top in transition (aka flat to steep) and I'm positive there are more. Would it be more beneficial to figure out what they do rather than go the other way?

#20 Jim Waldron

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:15 PM

View Postrussc, on 12 February 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 February 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

The degree of ideal shallowing is somewhat deependent on your height. body type and Swing Style. But for most of my students, I like to see about a 5-10 degree of shaft flattening during Transition. That is coming from a good Top of backswing position on the Turned Shoulder Plane or very close to it. If the golfer is 6 feet or taller and fairly flexible, he will likely steepen the shaft plane during second of backswing and so need to shallow it on transition to compensate. Shorter stature golfers will not steepen as much or even at all and can keep the downswing shaft plane angle identical to or nearly so to the shaft plane angle at Address. Remember shaft plane and shaft plane angle are NOT the same thing. The plane angles can be identical but in two different locations in space, ie one higher than the other.

That 5-10 degrees of shaft angle flattening can come mostly from spine tilt during Transtion with no need to manipulate the arms or wrists.
Jim
What specifically do you mean by  spine tilt in transition

Right side lateral bend, mainly lower area as pelvic girdle lateral shift occurs while head and upper spine stay back. Also Tilt Switch which is a bit higher. Both combined lower the right side of shoulder girdle closer to ground which flattens the shaft.


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#21 CosmosMpower

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:17 PM

View Postgators78, on 12 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

View PostCosmosMpower, on 12 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

What are some drills to learn how to properly shallow the plane of the shaft on the downswing?  Watching my videos compared to most pros I'm missing the transition that shallows the shaft and drops the club to the inside.  On video it looks like their right elbow drops to the hip and the clubhead almost comes from behind them to square into impact.  How does one achieve that move?

I'll ask what may be a really stupid question, but I can think of at least 10 Tour players that come over the top in transition (aka flat to steep) and I'm positive there are more. Would it be more beneficial to figure out what they do rather than go the other way?

Good question and good point.  I am looking to try and go from steep to flat in hopes that it will make my ball striking more consistent.  Right now I feel that my swing is very timing based meaning I can come in a bit steep and be pretty neutral or one day I will be off and start coming from over the top.  If I can always hit the ball more from the inside to square I feel that might give me a better chance to hit the ball more consistently so I don't have to struggle with hitting it thin and fat and all over the face on my "off" days.

With that being said I don't really care how I hit it as long as it's consistent and can help me hit more fairways and greens.

Edited by CosmosMpower, 12 February 2013 - 10:19 PM.

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#22 Jim Waldron

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:29 PM

Cosmos - You have a bit of Hit Impulse happening, ie your upper arms are moving out away from your body toward the ball. And you aren't tilt switching. Either or both cause the shaft to steepen or not flatten enough. Both are basically universal errors for vast majority of golfers.

#23 CosmosMpower

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:30 PM

Any instructors have thoughts on this video, good or bad?  Some of what he says makes a lot of sense, especially the part of trying to use the hands and arms to hit the ball which lead to the hands moving towards the ball instead of falling down into the slot.


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#24 CosmosMpower

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 February 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

Cosmos - You have a bit of Hit Impulse happening, ie your upper arms are moving out away from your body toward the ball. And you aren't tilt switching. Either or both cause the shaft to steepen or not flatten enough. Both are basically universal errors for vast majority of golfers.

Could you please explain tilt switching?  You're right I do have a bit of a hit impulse, what's the best way to fix that?  I think I do it being a skinnier guy I feel like I have to try and muscle the ball to hit it anywhere.  I've had good success previously hitting the ball with what felt like no arm/shoulder/hand action and just rotating hard into the ball but I couldn't play golf with that swing as it was so inconsistent.

Edited by CosmosMpower, 12 February 2013 - 10:32 PM.

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#25 jbw749

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:36 PM

Cosmos, If you do shallow the shaft durning the transition you will have to steepen it later. The thing you should ask yourself is how to steepen late, shallowing early is relatively easy.


#26 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

Cosmos, setting your wrists earlier might help.  Gators78 and Jim W also said some great things.
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#27 Stampa

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:03 PM

For me, Harvey Penick explained it best with his 'magic move'... shifting the weight left while bringing the right elbow back into the body.  Then just staying down and turning through impact, like Monte explains in his video.

#28 russc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:05 PM

View Postjbw749, on 12 February 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Cosmos, If you do shallow the shaft durning the transition you will have to steepen it later. The thing you should ask yourself is how to steepen late, shallowing early is relatively easy.
To the extent that rotation is  a steeping   move nearer impact ,you are right ,but that is a completely different issue .If shallowing earlier is so easy ,please describe how to do so

Edited by russc, 12 February 2013 - 11:31 PM.


#29 jbw749

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

View Postrussc, on 12 February 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 12 February 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Cosmos, If you do shallow the shaft durning the transition you will have to steepen it later. The thing you should ask yourself is how to steepen late, shallowing early is relatively easy.
To the extent that rotation is steeping   move nearer impact ,you are right ,but that is a completely different issue .If shallowing earlier is so easy ,please describe how to do so
From the top of my back swing I like the feeling of my right humerus rotating Clockwise or away from the target at the strart of the transition. This lays the shaft down and gets the hands moving less towards the target line.

#30 russc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:30 PM

View Postgators78, on 12 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

View PostCosmosMpower, on 12 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

What are some drills to learn how to properly shallow the plane of the shaft on the downswing?  Watching my videos compared to most pros I'm missing the transition that shallows the shaft and drops the club to the inside.  On video it looks like their right elbow drops to the hip and the clubhead almost comes from behind them to square into impact.  How does one achieve that move?

I'll ask what may be a really stupid question, but I can think of at least 10 Tour players that come over the top in transition (aka flat to steep) and I'm positive there are more. Would it be more beneficial to figure out what they do rather than go the other way?
The definition  of  coming over the top is to start the downswing with a spin of the shoulders.I can not think of  any pro who does this.Now if you are referring to pros  who have  a flatter  backswing  than their downswing(like Sam Snead and John Daley) that is a different animal altogether,one which Mr Mcclean refers to as a reverse slot swing.Even pros who do this do NOT STEEPEN the SHAFT going down
This type of swing while not in the majority is  a viable alternative .IMOP the problem in this move for most people is that they WILL STEEPEN THE SHAFT while doing this and set themselves up for real problems during the rest of their downswing.

Edited by russc, 12 February 2013 - 11:45 PM.


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