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What is the protocol here for "deadbeats"?


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#1 SHIVAN

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

I know I have seen people essentially say, "Well you didn't lose anything so no big deal."

I am staff on another web forum that has nothing to do with golf, but does have a sales area.  Much like the BST here it's meant to clear personal collection items to other like-minded people.

However, we have a pretty low threshold for deadbeats, people who make a clear indication that they will take something, at X price, and are sending funds.  We authorize negative feedback for such occurences, and ebay does it too with their feedback system, and non-payments.

I have a clear path of PM's, guy says he will take it, gives me shipping address, I give him paypal address.  Then nothing.  His last read of the PM was 27JAN.  His last activity on the site is 02FEB.

To me, that is just low brow, and shows a lack of integrity.

However, I am unsure if I am to leave negative feedback on his profile or not?  I know I would want to know as much as I can about a seller/buyer when I deal with them, but do not want to create waves.


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#2 Aces-6

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:39 PM

Happens to me all the time. I can't tell you how many times that I have sent my PP info to someone and never hear from them again.

I don't leave negative feedback for them. I just don't think it's a crime that's egregious enough to warrant a negative mark...just my opinion. I don't see it as a deal until money has switched hands.

Edited by Aces-6, 05 February 2013 - 03:40 PM.


#3 SHIVAN

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:44 PM

I'm Ok if that is the majority opinion, just need to know.

On our site, integrity is highly valued and we like to know that deadbeats are getting weeded out.  Or at the very least, the person buying, or selling, knows that the person has at least some integrity issues.  It helps make a better informed decision on whom to trust and whom to avoid.

#4 PZero

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostAces-6, on 05 February 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Happens to me all the time. I can't tell you how many times that I have sent my PP info to someone and never hear from them again.

I don't leave negative feedback for them. I just don't think it's a crime that's egregious enough to warrant a negative mark...just my opinion. I don't see it as a deal until money has switched hands.

I agree with this. I've had it happen several times, but I let it slide for the same reason stated above.
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#5 Aces-6

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:55 PM

I agree, it's very frustrating when you think you have a deal and then find out later you don't. Sometimes things come up in peoples lives that are unforeseen and they need to use those funds somewhere else. In which case, they should at least message the seller back and tell them they have to back out.

Again, all of this is just my opinion. You will have a few guys come along soon and tell us all how they should be publicly ridiculed and burned at the stake.


#6 SHIVAN

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:18 PM

Not really worried about being frustrated, just want to make sure I am doing what the community expects as a protective measure for everyone.

Here is how I see integrity issues:

If someone is willing to tell me, "I'll take it.  Give me a paypal address."  Then they are able to, with a clear conscience, back out with no explanation, or even present some sort of inconceivable lie...

Are they not also capable of telling me that a driver has never hit a ball, a putter has only been rolled indoors, the shirts/pants are not from the outlet and are not "seconds", the shoes were worn once, the irons had these shafts from the factory, PING built the driver, etc, etc, etc, etc.

It's certainly not a crime, but feedback is meant to tell us with whom we are dealing.  If we only post the positive, some real bums continue to roll around the site, and eventually they take advantage of someone.

What we hate hearing most on our site is after someone gets burned for $100++++, people start coming out of the woodwork.... "Oh yeah, that guy was a real whack in my deal with him four weeks ago.  He said he was going to ship, then didn't, then said he would again, and eventually it got here, three weeks later than he promised.  No excuse, no nothing.  It was also a little more worn than he showed in the pics, or claimed in the ad.  But since the price was good, and it did eventually get here, I didn't mention it."  Ugh.

#7 drake47

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

It happens all the time to me, and I haven't sold much on here. I even had this exact situation happen with a very experienced Buyer/Seller with a 99 feedback score. We reached an agreement on price, I gave my Paypal info, the buyer said I will pay first thing tomorrow, and I didn't hear from them again. I waited and turned down a couple of other good offers, thinking the "99 feedback score" will definitely come through. He never did and I was on page 3 by then and missed my chance to sell the item.

Edited by drake47, 05 February 2013 - 04:26 PM.

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#8 jsanatx

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:32 PM

it happens and I don't worry about it or leave negative feedback.  A deal is not a deal until i get the funds in my account.  If i have not heard from the guy in a reasonable amount of time, I go on to the next in line.  If i happen to get the funds after the item is sold to someone else, I refund it, no big deal.

IMO, negative feedback is reserved for those that lie about condition and/or scam you out of your money.  Those are the people that this board really should look out for.
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#9 casey_0507

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:39 PM

I'm not sure about leaving negative feedback, but I would have no problem if you left neutral feedback and let everyone know who "those people" are.
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#10 Aces-6

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostSHIVAN, on 05 February 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Not really worried about being frustrated, just want to make sure I am doing what the community expects as a protective measure for everyone.

Here is how I see integrity issues:

If someone is willing to tell me, "I'll take it.  Give me a paypal address."  Then they are able to, with a clear conscience, back out with no explanation, or even present some sort of inconceivable lie...

Are they not also capable of telling me that a driver has never hit a ball, a putter has only been rolled indoors, the shirts/pants are not from the outlet and are not "seconds", the shoes were worn once, the irons had these shafts from the factory, PING built the driver, etc, etc, etc, etc.

It's certainly not a crime, but feedback is meant to tell us with whom we are dealing.  If we only post the positive, some real bums continue to roll around the site, and eventually they take advantage of someone.

What we hate hearing most on our site is after someone gets burned for $100++++, people start coming out of the woodwork.... "Oh yeah, that guy was a real whack in my deal with him four weeks ago.  He said he was going to ship, then didn't, then said he would again, and eventually it got here, three weeks later than he promised.  No excuse, no nothing.  It was also a little more worn than he showed in the pics, or claimed in the ad.  But since the price was good, and it did eventually get here, I didn't mention it."  Ugh.

I agree with all of what you have said, no argument here.

It's really up to you regarding the feedback issue. If you feel compelled that the offender deserves a negative mark then post it. I think the majority here will agree that a negative is probably a little too harsh.


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#11 borgore23

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

I would just block that person and move on. Negative feedback is going too far IMO. It can be frustrating though.

#12 albatrosser

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:15 PM

I'd personally rather leave negative feedback for the guys that are too lazy to leave feedback after a transaction, even after you've reminded them.
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#13 teeitlow

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

I don't think negative feedback is warranted unless there is an actual transaction of goods and monies.
However I wouldn't be opposed to a pinned thread where you could drop the members name. It would make it very easy to just copy and paste into your block list, and I only mention that because lack of integrity buying could be equal to selling as well.
just a thought.
-D

#14 CCUgolfer23

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:51 PM

Just put them on the blocked list. A pinned thread, and any sort of feeback is IMO very very dumb and unnecessary. So the person made and offer, but have you thought that the person has given offers on other items just like sellers get multiple offers? Maybe a seller he messaged earlier accepeted an offer and he went that route. Just like sellers recieve many offers and choose the one they like or got first. Outing the person is just extremely uncalled for in a pinned thread, like someone else said maybe something came up. I agree it sucks these things happen, but thats why you have to say "first to paypal gets the item" no holding or anythinjg.
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#15 chickenpotpie

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:58 PM

I think we should be able to use the feedback system for these drive by buyers.  I have not done it myself, because I know that's not how folks operate here, but I'd have no problem doing it if that's the direction the site wants to go.  I think there should be some responsibility on the buyers here.  Why is everything on the seller?  Shouldn't the seller have some guarantee that he's dealing with someone who is worth dealing with?  I like the "weeding out" part you mention shivan.

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#16 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:58 PM

View PostSHIVAN, on 05 February 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

However, we have a pretty low threshold for deadbeats, people who make a clear indication that they will take something, at X price, and are sending funds.  We authorize negative feedback for such occurences, and ebay does it too with their feedback

Don't think eBay will let you leave anything but positive feedback for a buyer, no matter how big a deadbeat they are.

I agree that negative feedback for a deal that was not consummated by the buyer is not warranted. I also agree it is both bothersome and too frequent an occurrence.

#17 Stinger82

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:26 PM

This has been brought up before and if I'm not mistaken one of the mods said you can't leave feedback because there wasn't an actual transaction...and no u can't leave negative feedback for any buyers on ebay either. Its annoying but it comes with the territory or buying/selling online
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#18 indygolfman

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:54 PM

Noun
  • Information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
  • The modification or control of a process or system by its results or effects, e.g., in a biochemical pathway or behavioral response.
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#1 speaks to me a little.  But I'm undecided to be honest.
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#19 SHIVAN

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:18 PM

View PostStinger82, on 05 February 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

...and no u can't leave negative feedback for any buyers on ebay either. Its annoying but it comes with the territory or buying/selling online

As a seller, on ebay, I can certainly exempt people who have X unpaid items in the last X months from even bidding on my items. It's pretty shocking to me that a community based on the game of golf accepts people to run in their midst who lack integrity.

Edited by SHIVAN, 05 February 2013 - 11:05 PM.


#20 Dbo35

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:57 PM

If you make a deal, then you make a deal.  A buyer asking for PayPal info to finalize a deal and then not following through is just as bad as a seller making a deal then getting a higher offer and selling to that person.  

When we see threads on this forum that does the latter of my last sentence they get roasted on here...  Why should it be different for buyers?  

Feedback should be there to warn buyers AND sellers.


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#21 sean2221

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

What about when you tell a seller that you will take an item when you are looking at the BST at midnight before going to bed.  I send them a PM telling them you will take the item.  Sometime during the night they send you a PM with their Paypal info, then later that morning before you get a chance to check your email you get another PM saying the item is sold??  I understand that the deal isn't done until the money changes hands, but a guy has to sleep sometime.  JEESH!!  If I didn't have a bunch of positive feedbacks maybe, but really??  I understand that there are lots of tire kickers out there and I guess sometimes people with good feedback don't come through, but wow.  I guess its just as well its something I didn't really have to have anyway.   lol

#22 SHIVAN

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:43 AM

View Postsean2221, on 06 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Sometime during the night they send you a PM with their Paypal info, then later that morning before you get a chance to check your email you get another PM saying the item is sold??

That's the unintended consequences of "first to paypal, because we have so many unidentified deadbeats" rule everyone is adopting on their own.

#23 J.W.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:50 AM

I think at the end of the day there is a double standard for sellers.  I also am one to believe negative feedback is warranted in this situation although I've never done it.  Think of the times the buyer has screamed when the seller gets a better offer and accepts the offer after hes already "made a deal" for the same product.  In my opinion when you say you'll take it or "send me PayPal info" then you should stand by your word.  I know several times I've agreed to take less for something and someone else came along offering more or just my asking price and I stood by the original deal.  Once you agree on a deal, I think your word should be worth something.  If there was no agreement of a deal then that's different.

I totally understand the money changing hands thing but that doesn't seem to be the consensus so I play along.

Edited by J.W., 06 February 2013 - 11:52 AM.

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#24 nfinch10

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:04 PM

Put me in the camp that would like "buyers" like this outed.  However, as Stinger82 mentioned, the mods have stated before that feedback cannot be left unless there is an actual transaction.  A pinned list would be nice, but I'd imagine it would need to be moderator approved.  I could definitely see a list like this as even more work for the mods, because there would be ton's of people comlaining that they shouldn't be on the list and the mods would have to try and sort it all out.  As long as there are not very specific rules in regard to things like: how long the buyer has to pay, what "magic words" mean a deal has been struck...etc, then there will always be tire-kickers and time-wasters.  As others have mentioned, this is the price you pay for selling goods on a free internet forum.

In regards to late night PM...as someone who lives on the west coast, I'm often that late night buyer.  My PM ususally reads something along the lines of "I'll take it, let me know your paypal.  Headed to bed right now, but will pay first thing when I wake up around 7:00am PST."  I haven't had any problems when I let them know exactly when they'll get the payment.

#25 jsanatx

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:58 PM

IMO, all the rules about when to expect payment should be up to the individual seller.  For example, if I get a PM that says "I'll take it" and i send them my PP, I'll also inform the potential buyer that I expect payment withing the hour (sometimes within the next 2 hours) and if I don;t receive payment in that timeframe, then I go to the next buyer.

I don't think its up to the mods to monitor transactions on the BST.  Remember, this is a Golf Forum in which the BST is only a benefit and not the major function of the board. If you have issues and don't like the way the BST is set up or are tired of the "deadbeat buyers", there is always eBay.

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#26 teeitlow

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

I suppose I didn't think to hard about my pinned thread idea seeing as that would be a tough nut for the mods.
I'm in the camp that believes that when you say "Send your PayPal." we've had a hand shake, deals done...that's integrity to me.
Maybe the owners need to make some profit off the BST...What say you guy's...think it would help or not??
-D

#27 SHIVAN

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:11 PM

Again, I'm fine with the BST.  I was asking so that I was clear on whether or not I was keeping up my end of the agreement with the GOLFWRX community.  You see, I read the rules, and understand their intent.  The BST has the rules it does to be a respite from ebay, not a replacement of it.  I get it.

If the mods, staff and owners have said that a "transaction" means that money needed to change hands, that's fine.  I don't agree, but I don't need to agree.  So long as I have the integrity to conduct myself under the rules, and personal integrity to do the correct thing, when doing the incorrect thing would be much easier, I am ok with the BST.  Also, the BST is not necessarily a free endeavor to all.  There are several payment options for a variety of things, so do not presume that everyone is freeloading their way through the BST.

I needed to know what the protocol was/is, and I think I have a better understanding now.  I still think some feedback about people who make clear statements about taking an item and backing out is warranted.  I also believe there should be some measure of feedback for someone who accepts an offer, then reniges and sells to someone else at a higher price.

Again, it's called integrity, and it's very important piece of information to have when conducting business, or researching with whom you might conduct business.

Edited by SHIVAN, 06 February 2013 - 07:13 PM.


#28 teeitlow

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostSHIVAN, on 06 February 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Again, I'm fine with the BST.  I was asking so that I was clear on whether or not I was keeping up my end of the agreement with the GOLFWRX community.  You see, I read the rules, and understand their intent.  The BST has the rules it does to be a respite from ebay, not a replacement of it.  I get it.

If the mods, staff and owners have said that a "transaction" means that money needed to change hands, that's fine.  I don't agree, but I don't need to agree.  So long as I have the integrity to conduct myself under the rules, and personal integrity to do the correct thing, when doing the incorrect thing would be much easier, I am ok with the BST.  Also, the BST is not necessarily a free endeavor to all.  There are several payment options for a variety of things, so do not presume that everyone is freeloading their way through the BST.

I needed to know what the protocol was/is, and I think I have a better understanding now.  I still think some feedback about people who make clear statements about taking an item and backing out is warranted.  I also believe there should be some measure of feedback for someone who accepts an offer, then reniges and sells to someone else at a higher price.

Again, it's called integrity, and it's very important piece of information to have when conducting business, or researching with whom you might conduct business.
Are you insinuating that I'm stating that..or did you just not read my posts.
-D

#29 drbonesvt

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:46 PM

Had a guy who said he wanted a club, pm him a day later, still want it will sent payment, 3 days later, this individual said my "fitter said that would not work for me" I don't want it.  This personal got upset to boot when I called him on showing poor ethical conduct
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#30 SHIVAN

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:14 PM

View Postteeitlow, on 06 February 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Are you insinuating that I'm stating that..or did you just not read my posts.
-D

Did I quote you?


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