79 replies to this topic

[cpomustang]

nuthin but a hacker, on 06 February 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

cpomustang, on 05 February 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

fairways4life, on 05 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Things that I feel contribute to slow pace of play at typical public courses... 1.) Playing from too far back. If you want to play the tips you need to keep a certain handicap and show it to the starter before going back to that tee box. In some countries they don't even let you on the course without a handicap card. We need to adopt this policy or a similar policy. 2.) Par 5's. Joe Top Flite will hit his driver 210 yards off the tee. He'll then wait for the green to clear when he's 230 yards away. He finally hits after they're off the green and rolls his ball up 30 yards short of the green. Not sure what can be done about this problem but I'm sure there must be something. 3.) Halfway houses/beverage carts. I know this won't sit well with some people but I say get rid of them both. How many times do you play a fairly quick front nine and then get to the 10th tee and there's 2 foursomes there stuffing their faces with hot dogs? Seriously, you can't go 4 hours without eating? If you need to eat, bring a granola bar or some crackers or trail mix or something with you. Would you really rather spend 11 bucks for a hot dog and a gatorade? But I know courses will never get rid of halfway houses because it's a good money-maker for them. And they won't let better pace of play interfere with making more money. 4.) Tee time intervals. Some courses separate tee times by as little as 7 minutes. That's ridiculous. After all 4 guys in the group hit 2 shots apiece with their first-tee mulligans they are taking 5 minutes to get off the tee. After 7 minutes, they are still in the fairway hitting shots and picking up their other tee shots. You're on the tee behind them and waiting already. Your round hasn't even started yet and it's already backed up. Again, this is so courses can maximize their profits so it's another thing that will never change. 5.) Lack of ESC. Post a sign on the first tee that says a triple bogey or double par or whatever max will be strictly enforced. Pick the damn thing up already. This ties in with reason #1 about having handicaps. People who keep handicaps understand ESC and they know what their own ESC number is. People who don't have handicaps generally have no concept of this idea and will hack away at it 12 or 13 times if they need to. 6.) Lazy cart riders. I'm not calling people who ride lazy. I'm calling out the ones who drive to one ball and sit in the cart while that guy gets out and hits. Then he gets back in and they drive to the other guy's ball --- 15 yards away! Park it where you can both get out and go hit. Unfortunately none of these things are a result of a trickle down effect from televised golf. The PGA Tour can do all they want to try and speed things up but it won't do anything to change these 6 things.

I get your comment about hitting 30 yds short on a second or third shot, but you also need to address the guys on the green having a hissy fit when it happens. I know when I can't reach the green so I will take a shot when I am ready. I generally play alone and I've had groups try to rip my head off for dropping the ball 25 yds from the green because I was "too f!3$&ing close!" After a few times of that happening you'll forgive me if I just don't want to put up with someone else's BS when I've taken a day off to play!

My thoughts exactly. Either the group ahead will be mad or the group behind will be. You just can't win. Seems like golf courses now days are full of people just looking for a reason to be mad about something.

That said, the last thing I want when I am burning a vacation day is a group behind me pushing me when I am not being slow.  Most of the time I'm alone.  Kinda hard to slow down the pace of play by myself.  But I have played on days where an approach shot landed on the green about the same time my hand left the flag stick.  I want to maintain the pace but at least let me clear the green.  I refuse to be pushed when I am not causing a problem.  I'm not the best player in the world as it is but I can't enjoy myself when I have to play in a hard hat!

[Rock Chalk Jayhawk]

I think perceived pace of play is much more important than actual pace of play. If you are stuck behind groups all day, 4 hours will seem much longer than a 5 hour round with no course congestion.

[ritz0019]

Here is my list of experiences for slow play.  No particular order  I think these are pretty accurate:

1) ignorance:  some people just don't know how to play.  They base their experience watching guys on TV study a shot & have the caddy pace off the shot (which I have seen amateurs do by the way).  They have never played with someone who has taught them specific ready golf etiquette.  I was lucky enough to have father to teach me how to play ready golf.
2) practice swings & paralysis by analysis: I have seen some of the most elaborate pre-shot routines that do absolutely nothing to do with preparedness.  Harvey Pennick got it right when he said don't waste your best swing on a practice swing.  Take a swing to loosen up, focus, take a deep breath, FIRE. It is that simple.
3)  distractions:  if you are that attached to your office, maybe you should be at work.  Put the phone on silent. Take a glance when you are waiting or at the turn. Don't check your phone ever minute. Besides, it is rude not be engaged with the rest of the folks you are playing with.
4)  ego:  you are not that good includes various behaviors. It includes elaborate pre-shots, taking forever on the green, playing the wrong tees....etc.  Have some fun.  There is reason Sneds putts good, he gets a line, commits, then goes.
5) not ready:  this is the one thing all slow golfers share.  They are never ready. Put more than one tee in your pocket.  Put more than one coin in your pocket.  Take a couple of clubs with you to your shot.  Put your clubs between you & your cart when you go to the green.  Know the rules of golf so you don't have to ask how to take a drop
6) greedy golf courses.  The worst courses for slow play are cash machines. If you hear, "we'll get you out there in a little bit, just hang tight"', get the he** out of there.  Courses should focus on a good gof experience not a rat race experience.
7)  drunks:  sorry to offend, but do us favor don't have another.  
8) the youth: they try so hard to look like a pro, act like a pro, play like a pro.  We should be teaching kids how to play ready golf, not just build a great swing. I have played behind many high school matches on fall evenings.  I usually quit after 4 or 5 holes & go practice.
9)  286 to the middle:  really dude....you don't have to wait.  Take out the three wood & take a massive cut, you aren't getting home in two.
10)  I'll have a hamburger & two sides:  go to Burger King, not the golf course

That is my best attempt at it. That being said, there is not a slow player out there reading this that thinks this is them. I have virtually quit playing competitive golf because of slow play because it 1) annoys me so bad 2) I don't want to spend my whole weekend on a golf course.  It had gotten much worse in the last decade in my opinion.

[pjfigueroa]

This is a huge problem all around and is the biggest issue not just in the PGA but the USGA address this every year. Im a fairly fast player, with that being said we ppl mid and low hdcp need to understand that is ppl trying to pick on the game and have fun not just go play and shoot lower scores. One thing I would say is if u have ppl getting into the game for first time get them on the course late on the day in a weekday. I think if the pace of play in the big tour speed up will help around, why? becuse alot it ppl try to imitate what they see in tv. But we all have to be understanding with ppl who just start playing. My home course is a military course that we welcome anyone whether they are civilians, retired, reservists or active duty and recently my old unit came back from deployment and i took some guys to play after some lessons at the range and I made them play forward and apply the double bogey rule but they were slow as I expected just cuz is their first time playing. We had a 4some of civilians behind us and we told them to go around and they say no and say to us that we need to hurry up and if we cant play we shouldnt be there. I mean really, is a priviledge for u play in our course on base and u gonna say that to a couple of Marines recently back from deployment just trying to have some fun and learn something new. Anyway we just need to have more patience with newcomer and help them out no try to push them away from the game. This game is abt camaraderie and help other ppl. I do agree in the fact that pros should play faster and anything the PGA do to fix this will help everyone. This is my personal opinion and I respect everyone else opinion

[Vindog]

^well said

welcome

and welcome HOME!!

[duffer987]

Rock Chalk Jayhawk, on 07 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I think perceived pace of play is much more important than actual pace of play. If you are stuck behind groups all day, 4 hours will seem much longer than a 5 hour round with no course congestion.

And some will say - myself included - there should be no such thing as a non-congested 5hr round. If it does take that long, that group is slow.

[Joey76]

TJCDAS, on 07 February 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Joey76, on 07 February 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

The problem for me is on the greens.

I dont think amatuers will speed up they they see these guy take and eternity on putts and think its the norm.

At my course there are group who take 8 shots to reach a par 5. Thats not a problem they have paid their money, its slow but sometimes we play through.

When they set up to putt all 4 of them will do the walk aorund. the plumb bob, etc.... you would swear they were in a play off for the US open.


They are already 3 over by the time the reach the green but that one putt is going to rescue the round.

That is the worst thing for me. Slow green play

I think one thing that would help speed up play and improve most peoples putting is start reading your putt as soon as you shot hits the green.  From 200 or 80 yards you see more of what the putt will do than from the green.

This also should apply to every shot--95% of the time you will know what you need to do before you ever reach your ball.  It kills me that so many players don't start the shot process until they reach their ball.

If we target a 3 1/2 hour round we might be able to actually have 4 hour rounds as the norm even on the weekends.

Great way to take a simple idea and exaggerate it......

You must be one of those hackers who arrives at a par 5 in 8 to 10 strokes then turns into Dave Stockton on the greens.

I can see why my comments hit a nerve

[Vindog]

Joey76, on 07 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

I can see why my comments hit a nerve

I think he was agreeing with you.

ymmv

[duffer987]

+1 He was offering up a way for folks to quicken their play on that back of your comment Joey76, that he was agreeing with. I know it's the internet but not everyone is always itching for a fight and trying to dial up the agro

Edited by duffer987, 07 February 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Joey76]

Well if thats the case I apologise.

I took the comment about seeing more on the green from 200-80 yards out as well as the pre shot routine starting before the you get to the ball as a little facetious

you guys may differ

[kellygreen]

TJCDAS, on 07 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

We are not talking about slow play due to too many people on a crowded course.

One group going at a 4 1/2 pace means no one else behind them can play faster than the 4 1/2 hour group.  Letting groups play through also slows down the play as the group behind the group playing through has an extra time waiting around and the group behind them, and behind them .......................................

It is like the car in the left lane holding up traffic when the lane is wide open.  Golf is like being in the left lane you can't be slower than the cars behind you.  

Speeding up play will never happen until you start removing people from the left lane--that are going to slow.

I would think that the golf course owners would be all for faster play as it would increase revenue as more rounds can be played.  Same principle as turning tables in the restaurant industry.

The target needs to be 3 1/2 not 4 1/2 hours.

That is an unreasonable goal if you are dealing with the typical foursomes of high-handicap players.

Four and a half hours is a very reasonable pace of 15 mins per hole for the four players.

Insisting that four players who have to hit the ball 90 to 100 times each over 18 holes, get around the course in only 12 minutes per hole will either demand that they fail to finish many holes....or be pressured to play so fast that they no longer enjoy their time on the course.

it is a game people....not a relay race.

[kellygreen]

Vindog, on 07 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

mikpga, on 07 February 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

What in the world is wrong with a pace of play of 15 minutes per hole?

Nothing in my mind.  but 4.5 hours to some is deplorable.  Realistically to me it's an okay time.

I view golf on the weekends like highway traffic.  Sure, I can make it to Boston from here in 2 hours...when there is nobody on the road.  Travel down there around Christmas and it's a whole different story.  I can punch my dashboard and cuss the other drivers all I want, but the fact is there are more cars on the road, and even if all of them are doing what they are supposed to, it's just going to take longer and I need to be prepared for it.

Agreed.

Imo, golf doesn't have a slow play problem...it has a patience-and-expectations problem.

Now if I'm caught behind hackers taking 6 swipes apeice to get down each fairway, or a group where guys are yakking on cellphones for 5 minutes between shots...I'm going to get POd.

But it is simply not reasonable to expect a 4 hour round on a busy weekend day, on a crowded course.   Especially if the tee times are less than 15 minutes apart.   You simply are not going to be able to move that many high-and-mid-handicap golfers around a golf course that quickly.

I think everybody needs to be mindful of the pace-of-play, respectful of other golfer's time and playing experience.   Play your shot in a timely fashion, play ready golf, and don't linger.   But I've also seen too many players who start to pace, fume and curse the SECOND play starts to back up, and they have to wait longer than 30 secs to play a shot.

[TJCDAS]

Joey76, on 07 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

TJCDAS, on 07 February 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Joey76, on 07 February 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

The problem for me is on the greens.

I dont think amatuers will speed up they they see these guy take and eternity on putts and think its the norm.

At my course there are group who take 8 shots to reach a par 5. Thats not a problem they have paid their money, its slow but sometimes we play through.

When they set up to putt all 4 of them will do the walk aorund. the plumb bob, etc.... you would swear they were in a play off for the US open.


They are already 3 over by the time the reach the green but that one putt is going to rescue the round.

That is the worst thing for me. Slow green play

I think one thing that would help speed up play and improve most peoples putting is start reading your putt as soon as you shot hits the green.  From 200 or 80 yards you see more of what the putt will do than from the green.

This also should apply to every shot--95% of the time you will know what you need to do before you ever reach your ball.  It kills me that so many players don't start the shot process until they reach their ball.

If we target a 3 1/2 hour round we might be able to actually have 4 hour rounds as the norm even on the weekends.

Great way to take a simple idea and exaggerate it......

You must be one of those hackers who arrives at a par 5 in 8 to 10 strokes then turns into Dave Stockton on the greens.

I can see why my comments hit a nerve

I am serious start to reading green as you approach from the  fairway.

As I approach I look to were on the green would be best to aim, not that I will hit it.  When I get to the ball I just need  distance grab  a club, quick practice swing,  and pull the trigger.

I am a hacker that is a bogey golfer.

[TJCDAS]

kellygreen, on 07 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

TJCDAS, on 07 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

We are not talking about slow play due to too many people on a crowded course.

One group going at a 4 1/2 pace means no one else behind them can play faster than the 4 1/2 hour group.  Letting groups play through also slows down the play as the group behind the group playing through has an extra time waiting around and the group behind them, and behind them .......................................

It is like the car in the left lane holding up traffic when the lane is wide open.  Golf is like being in the left lane you can't be slower than the cars behind you.  

Speeding up play will never happen until you start removing people from the left lane--that are going to slow.

I would think that the golf course owners would be all for faster play as it would increase revenue as more rounds can be played.  Same principle as turning tables in the restaurant industry.

The target needs to be 3 1/2 not 4 1/2 hours.

That is an unreasonable goal if you are dealing with the typical foursomes of high-handicap players.

Four and a half hours is a very reasonable pace of 15 mins per hole for the four players.

Insisting that four players who have to hit the ball 90 to 100 times each over 18 holes, get around the course in only 12 minutes per hole will either demand that they fail to finish many holes....or be pressured to play so fast that they no longer enjoy their time on the course.

it is a game people....not a relay race.

By trying to shot for 3 1/2 you might be able to get in a 4 hour round.

I am sorry but a group of guys that shoot 100 each that moves a long can easily play in 4 hours.

[TJCDAS]

cpomustang, on 07 February 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

nuthin but a hacker, on 06 February 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

cpomustang, on 05 February 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

fairways4life, on 05 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Things that I feel contribute to slow pace of play at typical public courses... 1.) Playing from too far back. If you want to play the tips you need to keep a certain handicap and show it to the starter before going back to that tee box. In some countries they don't even let you on the course without a handicap card. We need to adopt this policy or a similar policy. 2.) Par 5's. Joe Top Flite will hit his driver 210 yards off the tee. He'll then wait for the green to clear when he's 230 yards away. He finally hits after they're off the green and rolls his ball up 30 yards short of the green. Not sure what can be done about this problem but I'm sure there must be something. 3.) Halfway houses/beverage carts. I know this won't sit well with some people but I say get rid of them both. How many times do you play a fairly quick front nine and then get to the 10th tee and there's 2 foursomes there stuffing their faces with hot dogs? Seriously, you can't go 4 hours without eating? If you need to eat, bring a granola bar or some crackers or trail mix or something with you. Would you really rather spend 11 bucks for a hot dog and a gatorade? But I know courses will never get rid of halfway houses because it's a good money-maker for them. And they won't let better pace of play interfere with making more money. 4.) Tee time intervals. Some courses separate tee times by as little as 7 minutes. That's ridiculous. After all 4 guys in the group hit 2 shots apiece with their first-tee mulligans they are taking 5 minutes to get off the tee. After 7 minutes, they are still in the fairway hitting shots and picking up their other tee shots. You're on the tee behind them and waiting already. Your round hasn't even started yet and it's already backed up. Again, this is so courses can maximize their profits so it's another thing that will never change. 5.) Lack of ESC. Post a sign on the first tee that says a triple bogey or double par or whatever max will be strictly enforced. Pick the damn thing up already. This ties in with reason #1 about having handicaps. People who keep handicaps understand ESC and they know what their own ESC number is. People who don't have handicaps generally have no concept of this idea and will hack away at it 12 or 13 times if they need to. 6.) Lazy cart riders. I'm not calling people who ride lazy. I'm calling out the ones who drive to one ball and sit in the cart while that guy gets out and hits. Then he gets back in and they drive to the other guy's ball --- 15 yards away! Park it where you can both get out and go hit. Unfortunately none of these things are a result of a trickle down effect from televised golf. The PGA Tour can do all they want to try and speed things up but it won't do anything to change these 6 things.

I get your comment about hitting 30 yds short on a second or third shot, but you also need to address the guys on the green having a hissy fit when it happens. I know when I can't reach the green so I will take a shot when I am ready. I generally play alone and I've had groups try to rip my head off for dropping the ball 25 yds from the green because I was "too f!3$&ing close!" After a few times of that happening you'll forgive me if I just don't want to put up with someone else's BS when I've taken a day off to play!

My thoughts exactly. Either the group ahead will be mad or the group behind will be. You just can't win. Seems like golf courses now days are full of people just looking for a reason to be mad about something.

That said, the last thing I want when I am burning a vacation day is a group behind me pushing me when I am not being slow.  Most of the time I'm alone.  Kinda hard to slow down the pace of play by myself.  But I have played on days where an approach shot landed on the green about the same time my hand left the flag stick.  I want to maintain the pace but at least let me clear the green.  I refuse to be pushed when I am not causing a problem.  I'm not the best player in the world as it is but I can't enjoy myself when I have to play in a hard hat!

If you are playing as a single and you are being pushed by a group you are not playing at good pace.

I would like to hear how anyone could be considered not playing slow when they play as a single and are being pushed by a group?

If a single likes to take 4 1/2 hours to play I could see this happening.

Edited by TJCDAS, 07 February 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[Vindog]

TJCDAS, on 07 February 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

By trying to shot for 3 1/2 you might be able to get in a 4 hour round.

I am sorry but a group of guys that shoot 100 each that moves a long can easily play in 4 hours.

Compound that by a full course, with tee times 8 min apart, and getting beer everytime the cart comes along and VIOLA!!!

  I'm not one for excuses, but I'm also a realist.

Edited by Vindog, 07 February 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[mikpga]

If there was consistent enforcement and education, pace of play can be managed to a respectable time frame...

Perhaps the governing authorities can create a certification process for courses...

So for example, xyz club is POP certified, which would simply allow golfers to know in advance that xyz club has a pace of play policy which is enforced, and also, at POP certified courses, you can be educated by taking free classes...

Now the next question becomes, what is a reasonable pace of play?

[phillypete]

Most slow groups I see are spending more time in the woods looking for their ball than they are playing shots.

we need bumper golf. ya know like bumper bowling. Maybe there is a button you press on the tee box and driving range nets go up along the first 250 yards of fairway.

Or they need to make golf balls really cheap and give people above a 15 handicap free drops off the tee.

[bscinstnct]

mikpga, on 08 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

If there was consistent enforcement and education, pace of play can be managed to a respectable time frame...

Perhaps the governing authorities can create a certification process for courses...

So for example, xyz club is POP certified, which would simply allow golfers to know in advance that xyz club has a pace of play policy which is enforced, and also, at POP certified courses, you can be educated by taking free classes...

Now the next question becomes, what is a reasonable pace of play?

I don't know.

All these clubs are hurting.

One gave offered my buddy a year of free golf for spending 10G at their club for hi daughters sweet 16.

And if you pay 200G to join a club and they tell you to hurry, I assume you say,

*&^& off.

I just don't see why all the good, fast golfer don't start their own club and play with themselves.

[mikpga]

Perhaps the USGA will give incentives to all courses across the country in return for data on actual pace of play...It would be interesting to find out an actual average of pace of play during peak times...