37 replies to this topic

[Frankensteins Monster]

teejaywhy, on 01 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Work with me here Frankenstein. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to shed some insight and provoke thought.

Suppose you have a course that is a par 72.  Joe Pro goes out and shoots a 59 (13 under par). Now suppose the course decides to change the par value of one hole from a par 5 to a par 4.  Nothing else changed but the par value.  The course is now a par 71,  Joe Pro comes out the very next day and shoots another 59.  Exact same course.  But now his score is only 12 under par.

Would you believe that one 59 is different than the other?  The -13 is a better round than the -12?   The course became easier because it is a par 71 vs. a par 72?

You know that the PGA Tour and the USGA frequently change the par value of holes for tournament play?  Doesn't make the hole any easier or harder or different in any way other than the assigned par value.

My point is par values are arbitrary and therefore not a precise or meaningful method of measure.  As others have pointed out, if one really wants to compare the 59's, it would be better to compare the differentials created when applying the score to the slope/rating of the course.  That can be hard to do because the tournaments aren't always conducted from a rated set of tees.

I completely understand where you're coming from and I get it. But a course who's par is a 70 and as been that way is not the same as a course that is a 72 made a 70 because of, let's say, the UGSA's U.S. Open. Now, if we got a 59 on a course that would normally play for the pros as a 72 but is now a 70, I would look at that in the same light as a 59 shot on a par 72 59. But to my knowledge that hasn't happened on the PGA Tour.

A par 70 course is not the same as a par 72 course converted to a par 70 and not shortened, for four days.

Edited by Frankensteins Monster, 01 February 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[teejaywhy]

Frankensteins Monster, on 01 February 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

A par 70 course is not the same as a par 72 course converted to a par 70 and not shortened, for four days.

Maybe, maybe not.   It really depends on the course.  And the meaningful metric would be the rating/slope, not the par value.

[Lefty94]

The scary thing is it shouldn't have been a 59. It should have been a 58 and perhaps even a 57. The putt for 59 should've went. The putt the hole before that died on the lip (2 more revolutions and that drops) and he had one other putt that should have went. 59 is crazy, 58 would have been insane and a chance at 57 would unheard of.

[HoosierMizuno]

Frankensteins Monster, on 01 February 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

teejaywhy, on 01 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Work with me here Frankenstein. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to shed some insight and provoke thought.

Suppose you have a course that is a par 72.  Joe Pro goes out and shoots a 59 (13 under par). Now suppose the course decides to change the par value of one hole from a par 5 to a par 4.  Nothing else changed but the par value.  The course is now a par 71,  Joe Pro comes out the very next day and shoots another 59.  Exact same course.  But now his score is only 12 under par.

Would you believe that one 59 is different than the other?  The -13 is a better round than the -12?   The course became easier because it is a par 71 vs. a par 72?

You know that the PGA Tour and the USGA frequently change the par value of holes for tournament play?  Doesn't make the hole any easier or harder or different in any way other than the assigned par value.

My point is par values are arbitrary and therefore not a precise or meaningful method of measure.  As others have pointed out, if one really wants to compare the 59's, it would be better to compare the differentials created when applying the score to the slope/rating of the course.  That can be hard to do because the tournaments aren't always conducted from a rated set of tees.

I completely understand where you're coming from and I get it. But a course who's par is a 70 and as been that way is not the same as a course that is a 72 made a 70 because of, let's say, the UGSA's U.S. Open. Now, if we got a 59 on a course that would normally play for the pros as a 72 but is now a 70, I would look at that in the same light as a 59 shot on a par 72 59. But to my knowledge that hasn't happened on the PGA Tour.

A par 70 course is not the same as a par 72 course converted to a par 70 and not shortened, for four days.

this is exactly why everyone is saying that the real measure is the slope/rating and not par.   the par 70 may have a rating of 75 and the par 72 may have a rating of 76. in this case shooting a 59 on both would mean the 59 on the par 72 is better because its lower compared to rating. .

[FLOGMR]

Frankensteins Monster, on 01 February 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

FLOGMR, on 01 February 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

And what about all the 58's that have been shot on other pro tours and even in the US Open qualifying rounds???

Maruyama did it right?

Yup...and Ishikawa did it on the Japanese Tour.... Notah Begay on the (now) Web.com....numerous guys on the Canadian Tour and the Web.com in the past years....and a bunch even lower than those.... apparently 4 verified rounds of 55
http://golf.about.co...lowestscore.htm

[Haymaker]

I know it was in the Pro-Am....
Bo Van Pelt shot 59 on Wed....
Considering all the chaos that goes on in one of those, I'd say that was impressive!

[Llortamaisey]

Golfnutgalen, on 01 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

practicetee, on 01 February 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

You could argue shooting 59 on a Par 70 or 71 is more impressive as the course would typically not have the conventional (4) Par 5's, which tour pros tend to rip apart.

Statistically, it's easier for the pros to shoot 2-under on a par 68 course than it is to shoot 4-under on a par 72 course

Man, this may show my ignorance but I can't remember any tour events played on a par 68 last year. Any help, which courses have a par 68 on tour?

[spitfisher]

I shot my personal best last year with a 66 on a par 72 course during tournament play, I'm a 3.5 handcap. Its a tough course, ,6600 yards and I had never broken par there, let alone 70. It was so unbelieveable to me I stopped and bought a power ball ticket on the way home. The play I had wasn't anything that would fall into the spectacular catagory. No bogies, lots of kick in pars, no chip ins- I just seemed to be in the zone with my irons with a fairly consistent drive with 12 fairways, the two that missed I had very good lies on the correct side of the dog leg. 3out of the 4 par 3s I was inside 8 feet.

anyway when Phil, in the press conference described the berlin wall being between the score of 60 and 59.....I knew exactly what he was talking about.