61 replies to this topic

[Outlier]

OK, so this may not gonna be politically correct, but I have to get this off my chest!  I have grown weary of the lip service from all facets of golf about "growing the game".  Let me try to organize this- first the popular, often repeated "talking points".

1. "We have to grow the game...."
2. "Cost is a factor, caused by the need for more land (balls too long to blame)..."
3. "My buddies will stop enjoying/playing golf without an anchored stroke..."
4. "It takes too long to play 18..."
5. "What separates our beautiful game is that gentlemen call penalties on themselves..."

I CALL BS!!

I want to know when the last time a tour player called a penalty on themselves for not adhering to the rules of golf (or the PGA tour specific rules) regarding pace of play?  I know he is a nice kid, love his story of fortitude etc., but WHAT THE HELL WAS THE DEAL W/ ERIK COMPTON and group on Monday?

They were on a pace for a nearly 7 hr. round !!!! Honestly I think it is fair to say the way he handled his "business" on 18 was downright unprofessional.  After all the machinations with the official were done and he got his drop...THEN he figures a yardage and walks to go get a club????   At our club guys like that don't get many games.  At most public courses, the ranger would be getting (or giving) an earful for that kind of selfish crap.

Yes I know some of you think Ben Crane is cute, and Kevin Nah is trying hard, and Compton gets a free pass cause of his health problems....for me their behavior on the course is outrageous, selfish and needs to be addressed!  Not saying everyone needs to play like Snedeker, but holy smokes!

Am I alone?

[Frankensteins Monster]

I'm not sure what the rambling before "I CALL BS!!" has to do with everything after it?

[Outlier]

Frankensteins Monster, on 30 January 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I'm not sure what the rambling before "I CALL BS!!" has to do with everything after it?

It seems to me, that what I call talking points are the "politically correct" popular things to say, but in my opinion they are a series of feel good but empty statements.  I call BS because until you stop allowing players to flout the rules (as Compton did on Monday), then 1-5 are just "talk".

you disagree?

Edited by Outlier, 30 January 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Frankensteins Monster]

I'm still having a hard time making the connection. That may just be me though.

[esketores]

Regardless of how anyone else feels... the gist of your rant I get.

I call BS as well.

[pickerjohn]

I do agree with one thing you say for sure. The time it takes to determine proper drops is crazy long,
while the rule dealing with it is not that long. It goes in the hotdog stand?, nearest point of relief, no
nearer the hole. Get moving.

[TRS30]

I agree that the speed of play in general is poor and last Monday was down right disgraceful.

The yardage, club, shot etc should all be decided while waiting for the ruling so once the drop is done, you hit the shot and move on.

Is allowing groups behind play though if you're slow not allowed on the PGA tour??

[farmer]

It seems like every drop situation, even simple ones, require a rules official.  Like Picker said, it's not that complicated, move on.

[HAWKEYE77]

Outlier, on 30 January 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

OK, so this may not gonna be politically correct, but I have to get this off my chest!  I have grown weary of the lip service from all facets of golf about "growing the game".  Let me try to organize this- first the popular, often repeated "talking points".

1. "We have to grow the game...."
2. "Cost is a factor, caused by the need for more land (balls too long to blame)..."
3. "My buddies will stop enjoying/playing golf without an anchored stroke..."
4. "It takes too long to play 18..."
5. "What separates our beautiful game is that gentlemen call penalties on themselves..."

I CALL BS!!

I want to know when the last time a tour player called a penalty on themselves for not adhering to the rules of golf (or the PGA tour specific rules) regarding pace of play?  I know he is a nice kid, love his story of fortitude etc., but WHAT THE HELL WAS THE DEAL W/ ERIK COMPTON and group on Monday?

They were on a pace for a nearly 7 hr. round !!!! Honestly I think it is fair to say the way he handled his "business" on 18 was downright unprofessional.  After all the machinations with the official were done and he got his drop...THEN he figures a yardage and walks to go get a club????   At our club guys like that don't get many games.  At most public courses, the ranger would be getting (or giving) an earful for that kind of selfish crap.

Yes I know some of you think Ben Crane is cute, and Kevin Nah is trying hard, and Compton gets a free pass cause of his health problems....for me their behavior on the course is outrageous, selfish and needs to be addressed!  Not saying everyone needs to play like Snedeker, but holy smokes!

Am I alone?

I agree, what does everything after the "BS" have to do with what came before?

First, this rant is up on here in one forum or another twice a week, at least, did you just discover the pros are slow?  So, who do you think disagrees with that?

Second, your statements about what happens on the local level mean that what the pros do aren't adversely affecting the game.  Self-governing, at least according to you.

Third, I, like everyone one else around here would prefer to see the pros have to play a faster pace, yet, when it comes down to it, their pace of play really has no impact on my life.  Nobody I play golf with is as slow as Erik Compton was on Monday, and I think he was slow, but, they aren't playing a tough course in windy conditions, wanting to maintain/obtain Tour playing privileges, on a day when nobody really wanted to be there, anyway.

Fourth, their play has no influence on anyone I play with, and I think the suggestion that amateurs imitate the pros is a little overstated.  I see some of it, especially around the greens for those that over think putting, but I don't see pros playing slow affecting the game more than cost of golf, diminishing golf opportunities, and the main thing - - - - competition for other interests in people's lives that just wasn't there 15, 20 and 30 years ago.

The PGA and the USGA want to grow the game, and they don't control how the Tour handles slow play at its events.

When the Tour talks about growing the game it's more about new market opportunities for manufacturers and the Tour's product as well.  The Tour is always hypocritical, no news flash there.

I get that slow pros are frustrating and the Tour won't do anything about it, but their playing slow on TV isn't what is causing people to get out of the game or not get into it.  

You have every right to be frustrated, of course, but why let it get to you?  My remote still takes me somewhere else while I'm waiting for Kevin Na to pull the trigger.

Edited by HAWKEYE77, 31 January 2013 - 01:39 PM.

[Mikey Town]

Outlier, on 30 January 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

I want to know when the last time a tour player called a penalty on themselves for not adhering to the rules of golf (or the PGA tour specific rules) regarding pace of play?

You do know that players aren't exactly able to call a pace of play penalty on themselves, right?

Per USGA rules, Pace of Play Penalties are only assessed to a player in a group, or match, that is being timed.  Unfortunately, it is up to the tournament officials to make the call on who will, or will not, be put on the clock.  The pace of play problem lies with the officials, not the players.

I understand the main points you are making, and I agree with them whole-heartedly.  Personally, I think that golf should incorporate a shot-clock model, much like bowling and billiards do.

In a professional bowling telecast, a player is allowed 30 seconds from the completion of the last shot to execute another shot.  If they take longer, they are fined.  In addition, they are allowed to take a quick "time-out" during the course of the match for certain reasons (equipment change/adjustment, etc...).

In a professional billiards tournament, it is very similar.  They get 30 seconds from the completion of the last shot to execute another.  If they take longer, they are fined.  Each player is allowed 1 "extension" per game.  This is usually used if they find themself in a difficult position and they want some extra time to think about and plan out their shot.

Here is my proposal for golf:

A time-keeping official is assigned to each group and is in charge of timing each golfer, for every shot of the round, starting on the first hole (not after the pace of play is already a problem).  The USGA allows a player 40-50 seconds to play a stroke, depending on the situation.  The first time a player exceeds this time frame, penalties are assessed per the USGA rules (shown below).  In addition to this, each player is allowed 2-3 "extensions" per round.  This extension would buy them an extra minute of time to plan out their shot, read the green, wait out the wind, etc...  After all, they are playing for millions of dollars.  If they need to take a bit more time on a couple shots in a round than us mere mortals would take, that's OK by me.

Personally, I think this will help speed up play by quite a bit, while still being fair to the players.  What do you all think?

Stroke Play
One bad timing exceeding the allotted time - warning
A second bad timing - 1 stroke penalty
A third bad timing - Additional 2 stroke penalty
A fourth bad timing - Disqualification

Match Play
One bad timing exceeding the allotted time - warning
A second bad timing - loss of hole
A third bad timing - warning
A fourth bad timing - Disqualification

[hayzooos]

farmer, on 31 January 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

It seems like every drop situation, even simple ones, require a rules official.  Like Picker said, it's not that complicated, move on.

In the local pick up game, drops don't take long. They shouldn't. Guys playing pick up games aren't playing for millions of dollars and their livelihood.

I understand the point and the pace needs to pick up, no question. But to think these guys are just going to look at a ball, take a quick drop (if they even drop it instead of moving it with a club like I'm sure most of us do) and move on is wishful thinking. They're playing for a lot more than we are, especially the guys who aren't well known. Them collecting any check instead of a DQ can make a huge, huge difference.

Didn't Tiger try to quicken this issue up just a week or two ago? How did that turn out for him?

[spitfisher]

Perhaps if the marshals were instructed to tone down the officiating, they seemed to be used as consultants, maybe what needs is happen is place more of the burden on the player and caddy as far as drops, where, how etc. I mean when you think of it between the player and caddy  they should know the rules........ if not they should hit the books.

I do realize that many more penalties would be assessed post hole or post round, so be it. They'll learn quick.

Regarding pace of play, they should start enforcing a maximum time limit between the time of the previous shot by the other player. for example player A and player B. once player A hits his shot, player B needs to address and hit their shot, be it in the fairway, rough, tee box or put within 1 minute.

My guess is players will walk faster to their ball and do the twitching ball scratching, and practice swings while the other player is preparing- when and if practical.

[wessnuts]

Slow play is often exacerbated with poor play.  I know some people will be of mindset "I paid for my green fee & cart so I'll take as long as I damn we'll please.  (No idea what happens at a private club)  

Tee It Forward was a nice initiative, but I think "Finish Under Five" would do more good for the game.

I agree with OP.  I also think if you're a slow player you need to play at a time when it won't affect as many groups.

[Lefty94]

My question is why isn't there a rules official with every group or at least every other? The amount of time it takes to find and get a rules official is what causes a lot of the time. I mean this is the PGA. Hire a bunch of rules officials that travel with the tour. Guys would work like 2 weeks on and then off one. Fly them in on Tues or Weds and then they fly out Sunday night. I mean the NHL and NBA and Major League Baseball all seem to be able to provide umps/refs for every game and they need a lot more than what would be needed for the PGA tour. IMO there is no reason there isnt a rules official with each group or like i said at least every other.

Plus you will get a more accurate ruling, bc the rules official will be walking with the group and will see what happens, not have to relying on someone telling them what happened.

Edited by Lefty94, 31 January 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Big Ben]

spitfisher, on 31 January 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Perhaps if the marshals were instructed to tone down the officiating, they seemed to be used as consultants, maybe what needs is happen is place more of the burden on the player and caddy as far as drops, where, how etc. I mean when you think of it between the player and caddy  they should know the rules........ if not they should hit the books.

I do realize that many more penalties would be assessed post hole or post round, so be it. They'll learn quick.

Regarding pace of play, they should start enforcing a maximum time limit between the time of the previous shot by the other player. for example player A and player B. once player A hits his shot, player B needs to address and hit their shot, be it in the fairway, rough, tee box or put within 1 minute.

My guess is players will walk faster to their ball and do the twitching ball scratching, and practice swings while the other player is preparing- when and if practical.

I really like your first idea a lot, know the rules and keep pace or suffer the consequence. Why shouldn't this be a player/caddy decision?! BB

[HoosierMizuno]

Bob Estes made a good point on Twitter....he mentioned the ShotLink keeps statistics and ranks each PGA player on pace of play. If these statistics or rankings were released to the public that might influence pace of play more than slap on the wrist fines.

[bruinsPATSirish]

farmer, on 31 January 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

It seems like every drop situation, even simple ones, require a rules official.  Like Picker said, it's not that complicated, move on.

I think it is simply ridiculous how long it takes to play some PGA Tour rounds, there has to be something done to light a fire under their a**.  At the same time you have to realize that one stroke can separate a pro from a $100K check and a $50K check.  I think I would take my time and get a ruling on a drop too...

[hogans71]

HoosierMizuno, on 31 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Bob Estes made a good point on Twitter....he mentioned the ShotLink keeps statistics and ranks each PGA player on pace of play. If these statistics or rankings were released to the public that might influence pace of play more than slap on the wrist fines.

Did not know that...

Would LOVE to see those stats...

[Ajit]

Great story on Sky Sports today. Rob Lee and Mark Roe (who's a complete douchebag btw) played a competitive round of golf on the European tour in two hours and two minutes shooting 70 and 67. Obviously they were out of contention but still does show what can be done if players put their minds to it.

[spitfisher]

HoosierMizuno, on 31 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Bob Estes made a good point on Twitter....he mentioned the ShotLink keeps statistics and ranks each PGA player on pace of play. If these statistics or rankings were released to the public that might influence pace of play more than slap on the wrist fines.

I would venture a guess that the numbers would be somewhat skewed based on playing partner, field size, start time,weather conditions, course type or difficulty. The numbers I think would identify the slowest and out of 144 players there will be 10-14 that are the slowest the large majority will be within 15 minutes of each other...........now that its been quantified now where are you?

[MadGolfer76]

I hate slow play, but not enough to influence a guy with multiple heart transplants and ongoing issues to play faster. Geesh, maybe he was having a bad health day and needed to slow things down. Is golf really that important to some of you guys? Slow play sucks, seeing a guy drop dead on national TV sucks worse.

[Hacker#5252]

Golf being what it is, the courses being so different from each other, and therefore, the TV setup, the stands, etc I think players should still be able to consult officials regarding drops, whether the ball is "plugged" or not: let's remember we're in an era where some guy in his basement can call officials to report an infraction, and the officials will actually act on it if there is basis to do so. In what other sports is this the case ? So I think there should be an official assigned to each group. I'm sure the PGA is rich enough to do that. That official would also be in charge of pace of play and anything else pertaining to that group. As others have mentioned, I think it would be a great idea to do so...that is unless Mark Russell likes seeing himself on TV too much...

I agree with the OP: some rules are more important than others in the eye of the PGA. The cynical in me wants to believe that longer rounds = longer broadcasts = more commercials = more $$$. Maybe there is some of that as well. Just a thought.

[Outlier]

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I hate slow play, but not enough to influence a guy with multiple heart transplants and ongoing issues to play faster. Geesh, maybe he was having a bad health day and needed to slow things down. Is golf really that important to some of you guys? Slow play sucks, seeing a guy drop dead on national TV sucks worse.

Figured this would come sooner or later from someone.   What is Na's excuse?  What is Crane's excuse?    Hacker #5252 really seems to get my point...since I constantly here about how the tour players are above reproach and call infractions on themselves why no time penalties?

Can a viewer call in to the rules officials and ask for a "review of the video" that shows player "x" broek the rules and therefore needs to sign for a penalized score?

Oh....we don't really count "THAT RULE"....but a ball oscillates and we give out Nobel prizes?

[HoosierMizuno]

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I hate slow play, but not enough to influence a guy with multiple heart transplants and ongoing issues to play faster. Geesh, maybe he was having a bad health day and needed to slow things down. Is golf really that important to some of you guys? Slow play sucks, seeing a guy drop dead on national TV sucks worse.

not sure if you saw the broadcast but its not about compton and his pace walking. the problem is with players waiting around while other guys hit their shots and then asking for an official or not starting their routine of getting yardages and planning their shot until its their turn. instead they should do this ahead of time and be ready to hit when its their turn

[MadGolfer76]

Outlier, on 31 January 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I hate slow play, but not enough to influence a guy with multiple heart transplants and ongoing issues to play faster. Geesh, maybe he was having a bad health day and needed to slow things down. Is golf really that important to some of you guys? Slow play sucks, seeing a guy drop dead on national TV sucks worse.

Figured this would come sooner or later from someone.   What is Na's excuse?  What is Crane's excuse? Hacker #5252 really seems to get my point...since I constantly here about how the tour players are above reproach and call infractions on themselves why no time penalties?

Can a viewer call in to the rules officials and ask for a "review of the video" that shows player "x" broek the rules and therefore needs to sign for a penalized score?

Oh....we don't really count "THAT RULE"....but a ball oscillates and we give out Nobel prizes?

Who cares what their excuses are? They aren't holding ME up. If anything, if I were playing for a million bucks or more I would thinking through my shots a little extra. You and I don't have that problem, and don't have the context to pass judgement on those guys. If I had three shots for million bucks I would likely soil my drawers (not really) and we expect these guys to rush through that process?

[MadGolfer76]

HoosierMizuno, on 31 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I hate slow play, but not enough to influence a guy with multiple heart transplants and ongoing issues to play faster. Geesh, maybe he was having a bad health day and needed to slow things down. Is golf really that important to some of you guys? Slow play sucks, seeing a guy drop dead on national TV sucks worse.

not sure if you saw the broadcast but its not about compton and his pace walking. the problem is with players waiting around while other guys hit their shots and then asking for an official or not starting their routine of getting yardages and planning their shot until its their turn. instead they should do this ahead of time and be ready to hit when its their turn

It doesn't have to be about his walking pace. If you play with enough sick and injured people you would recognize that some folks need more time than others, and that these apparent "lapses of judgement" are really just an attempt to save face and pride rather than admit you need help keeping up or simply need a break for a sec. I would rather give folks the benefit of the doubt, you know?

[KNGR5150]

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

HoosierMizuno, on 31 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I hate slow play, but not enough to influence a guy with multiple heart transplants and ongoing issues to play faster. Geesh, maybe he was having a bad health day and needed to slow things down. Is golf really that important to some of you guys? Slow play sucks, seeing a guy drop dead on national TV sucks worse.

not sure if you saw the broadcast but its not about compton and his pace walking. the problem is with players waiting around while other guys hit their shots and then asking for an official or not starting their routine of getting yardages and planning their shot until its their turn. instead they should do this ahead of time and be ready to hit when its their turn

It doesn't have to be about his walking pace. If you play with enough sick and injured people you would recognize that some folks need more time than others, and that these apparent "lapses of judgement" are really just an attempt to save face and pride rather than admit you need help keeping up or simply need a break for a sec. I would rather give folks the benefit of the doubt, you know?

I have to agree with MadGolfer76 on this one.

[HoosierMizuno]

KNGR5150, on 01 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

HoosierMizuno, on 31 January 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 31 January 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

I hate slow play, but not enough to influence a guy with multiple heart transplants and ongoing issues to play faster. Geesh, maybe he was having a bad health day and needed to slow things down. Is golf really that important to some of you guys? Slow play sucks, seeing a guy drop dead on national TV sucks worse.

not sure if you saw the broadcast but its not about compton and his pace walking. the problem is with players waiting around while other guys hit their shots and then asking for an official or not starting their routine of getting yardages and planning their shot until its their turn. instead they should do this ahead of time and be ready to hit when its their turn

It doesn't have to be about his walking pace. If you play with enough sick and injured people you would recognize that some folks need more time than others, and that these apparent "lapses of judgement" are really just an attempt to save face and pride rather than admit you need help keeping up or simply need a break for a sec. I would rather give folks the benefit of the doubt, you know?

I have to agree with MadGolfer76 on this one.

i'm willing to give compton a pass most every case. but he shouldn't even be the focus for the slow play at torrey. unfortunately he was when the announcers focused on him while waiting for his group to finish so we could get to tiger .fact is pga tour is becoming increasingly slow and the suits aren't doing a thing about it.

[Hacker#5252]

Well, just take out the time limit from the rules then. Maybe I'm oversimplifying things but they should enforce whatever rule is in the book. Playing on the PGA Tour isn't a right, it's a privilege. If someone can't follow the rules, then they deserve whatever penalty that pertains to that rule.

If the Tour likes the way things are, they can drop the time limit. If they feel 45 seconds, or whatever the rule is, isn't enough, they can bring it to 90 seconds if they so choose.

I would just like them to take a stand. Pick up the mic, with the cameras on, and say on record:"Pace of play is a judgment call. The 45-second rule is dropped. Any and all decisions are final". Just make it clear and stop hiding behind technicalities and status: be accountable PGA Tour. That's all we want.

[Newby]

There are PoP Rules on the hardcard. They just need the will to enforce them.

The European Tour have sent a video from Paramor and McFee warning all tour players that they will enforce the rules strictly this year.