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Joseph Mayo's Vertical Swing Plane video - question


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#1 justinthyme

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:48 AM

I just got through watching Dr Loomis' excellent video on vertical swing plane (www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4sT7CXR8WQ&) and  have a question to throw out there for opinions/thoughts.

Down the line video shows that my hands at impact are slightly further away from me, and higher than they were at address. This would mean that the clubshaft was at a steeper angle at impact, and therefore (if I'm understanding what Joseph is saying correctly) the swingpath would tend to be more out-to-in, or at least less in-to-out?

Yesterday I was practicing pitches with a 52* wedge, and having laid an aiming stick down just in front of the ball, found I was hitting the stick every time on the through swing. Which would mean I have too much of an inside out path, right?

This is what puzzles me and I have no idea how to practice now - since I've always assumed my constant struggle with shanks was due to too much of an inside-out path. If I try to keep my hands lower through the hitting area, then am I going to increase my inside-out path and hence compound the problem? Or am I reading too much into this? Perhaps the shanks have more to do with the clubhead being further away from me at impact and the effect of AoA on swingpath isn't an issue in these circumstances?

This is bugging me a bit, guys, and I don't want to be reaching wrong conclusions that will get me practicing the wrong things.

Any ideas?

Edited by justinthyme, 25 January 2013 - 02:52 AM.


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#2 AFcelica

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

you can still be very inside out with a steep VSP. it may not be as inside out as if your VSP was flatter with all else being equal, but still inside out enough to cause problems

#3 iteachgolf

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

The VSP is not the shaft but the path of the sweetspot. Shaft angle has little correlation with VSP.  Can have shaft in same position at impact visually and create very different, polar opposite even, VSP numbers.  It's about how the sweetspot got there.

#4 parallax

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:32 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

The VSP is not the shaft but the path of the sweetspot. Shaft angle has little correlation with VSP.  Can have shaft in same position at impact visually and create very different, polar opposite even, VSP numbers.  It's about how the sweetspot got there.

In the video he says that it is the shaft plane. Which is a concept I have not been able to reconcile. The path of the sweet spot, as you have described, seems more logical....

The question I have is: How much of that path do you use to define that plane? Just the part before and after impact?

Because, if it is more, like the entire path of the sweet spot, wouldn't that plane often be curved?

#5 iteachgolf

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Edited by iteachgolf, 25 January 2013 - 11:49 AM.


#6 TeeAce

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:56 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Iteach, what you think are the planes in these different options? The lines are captured from two different swings ant they are real.

Posted Image

We don't normally get that much difference, but this was made for testing purposes and plane bend / corner was maximized but both were full speed shots.

#7 iteachgolf

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

No clue what those lines are describing.  That camera angle would be looking at the face of an inclined plane and would show a curved/arced path.  The plane would be viewed from dtl but a 2d camera would make it impossible to accurately draw/track plane accurately.  Plane can be shifted and tilted different directions, doesn't have to be and rarely is it parallel to target line.

#8 parallax

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:07 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Well, that is good to hear. This "swing plane" thing has never made sense to me, since a plane is a 2-dimensional flat surface oriented in space. And and that is not what the golf club (sweet spot, or shaft) do, since they travel in 3-d curves.

I agree that it can be a useful visualization, though. :good:

#9 iteachgolf

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

View Postparallax, on 25 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Well, that is good to hear. This "swing plane" thing has never made sense to me, since a plane is a 2-dimensional flat surface oriented in space. And and that is not what the golf club (sweet spot, or shaft) do, since they travel in 3-d curves.

I agree that it can be a useful visualization, though. :good:
All points on an inclined plane exist on 3D and are plotted in 3D.  If it weren't for the droop in the shaft downward the club could be plotted in 3D on a "plane".  A club swung on a plane board at slow speeds, no shaft droop, is doing exactly that.

Planes can be and are 3D all the time

#10 TeeAce

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

No clue what those lines are describing.  That camera angle would be looking at the face of an inclined plane and would show a curved/arced path.  The plane would be viewed from dtl but a 2d camera would make it impossible to accurately draw/track plane accurately.  Plane can be shifted and tilted different directions, doesn't have to be and rarely is it parallel to target line.

The point is that the orange line was real club head path which was turned in rapidly after impact. The green line is about the result what we got from the radar. Something like 14 degrees left.

The blue line came bit out to in and we got 2 degrees in to out plane for that.

So I'm putting a question mark for all the plane thinking as it has been mainly done from DTL view and it can look like everything is moving on plane even if the plane after impact turns well to the left. So what is the frequency they use to grab that data if they get that plane so straight?

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#11 iteachgolf

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

A club moving on a plane moves in an arc. From the view your photo is taken from it should look like an arc.   I can't zoom on graph photo on my phone but the arc of the clubhead illustrated to the left of graph looks like a clubhead moving on a plane that is slightly left of target.

Again not 100% sure what you're saying.   From perpendicular to a plane the clubhead will appear as an arc.  When viewed from parallel to plane the club will appear to move in a line laying on the plane.

#12 TeeAce

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

A club moving on a plane moves in an arc. From the view your photo is taken from it should look like an arc.   I can't zoom on graph photo on my phone but the arc of the clubhead illustrated to the left of graph looks like a clubhead moving on a plane that is slightly left of target.

Again not 100% sure what you're saying.   From perpendicular to a plane the clubhead will appear as an arc.  When viewed from parallel to plane the club will appear to move in a line laying on the plane.

Or sometimes we are so used to see things the way we are and don't make enough questions?

#13 parallax

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

View Postparallax, on 25 January 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Well, that is good to hear. This "swing plane" thing has never made sense to me, since a plane is a 2-dimensional flat surface oriented in space. And and that is not what the golf club (sweet spot, or shaft) do, since they travel in 3-d curves.

I agree that it can be a useful visualization, though. :good:
All points on an inclined plane exist on 3D and are plotted in 3D.  If it weren't for the droop in the shaft downward the club could be plotted in 3D on a "plane".  A club swung on a plane board at slow speeds, no shaft droop, is doing exactly that.

Planes can be and are 3D all the time

I don't want to debate geometry..... but.... Yes, planes exist in 3d, but if a surface is curved, it is no longer a "plane". It is a "curved surface".

I don't want to muddle this thread with a geometry debate... so thanks for the info.....

#14 TeeAce

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

View Postparallax, on 25 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:


I don't want to debate geometry..... but.... Yes, planes exist in 3d, but if a surface is curved, it is no longer a "plane". It is a "curved surface".

I don't want to muddle this thread with a geometry debate... so thanks for the info.....

You are right on money parallax. And the geometry is always welcome at least for me. We should care much more about it.

#15 DoctorLoomis

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Before I filmed the video...which was quite sometime ago...I asked Dr. Tuxen if I could describe VSP in the fashion that I did. He said absolutely and it would help people understand the concept more easily. Thank you for your critical analysis and stating the video is wrong. I'll make sure Dr. Tuxen gives me correct information next time before I attempt to film any more videos.


#16 supergolfdude

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:58 AM



#17 kevcarter

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:14 AM


ROTFL. Great find!!! Looks like we needed this thread to lighten up a bit... :-)
I could be wrong.
I have been before.
I will be again.
========================================
GEOMETRICALLY ORIENTED LINEAR FORCE
========================================

#18 Stretch

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

View PostDoctorLoomis, on 26 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Before I filmed the video...which was quite sometime ago...I asked Dr. Tuxen if I could describe VSP in the fashion that I did. He said absolutely and it would help people understand the concept more easily. Thank you for your critical analysis and stating the video is wrong. I'll make sure Dr. Tuxen gives me correct information next time before I attempt to film any more videos.

It definitely helped me. Terminology evolves, understanding evolves. Please keep putting stuff out there.

#19 iteachgolf

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:17 AM

View PostDoctorLoomis, on 26 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Before I filmed the video...which was quite sometime ago...I asked Dr. Tuxen if I could describe VSP in the fashion that I did. He said absolutely and it would help people understand the concept more easily. Thank you for your critical analysis and stating the video is wrong. I'll make sure Dr. Tuxen gives me correct information next time before I attempt to film any more videos.
Wasn't here to bash you Joe, just clear it up for the person above who was confused.

#20 parallax

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:31 PM

View PostDoctorLoomis, on 26 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Video is wrong

It measures it from about hip high to hip high.  It is NOT the shaft plane and like I said there is very lil if any correlation to shaft plane at impact.  Very different things.  The path of the sweetspot will be curved but will generally follow what would be a virtually flat plane.  Remember that if a club is swung on a flat inclined plane the path of clubhead would be an arc. It's not perfectly flat due to shaft droop but a plane can be a good visual for most people.  Planes are plotted in x, y, and z cordinates and can be used to plot objects in 3D space

Before I filmed the video...which was quite sometime ago...I asked Dr. Tuxen if I could describe VSP in the fashion that I did. He said absolutely and it would help people understand the concept more easily. Thank you for your critical analysis and stating the video is wrong. I'll make sure Dr. Tuxen gives me correct information next time before I attempt to film any more videos.

Would you ask him:

1. What is the range of the arc (sweet spot) that defines the "plane"?
2. Is the plane, in fact, curved?

Thanks for the great info.


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