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Push draw


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#91 parallax

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:15 PM

It's a push.

Why would you line up 15 yards right of target if you are trying to hit a straight shot at the target?


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#92 sls7474

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:35 PM

I disagree that it is a push. If it was the same exact shot could be called straight or pulled depending on where you were aligned. The 15 yard right example was just for a description. Are you saying if I lined up at my target and hit a straight shot 15 yards right of target that those 2 shots are hit the same?

#93 Crab Daddy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:57 PM

It's the difference of results vs. how those results are achieved.

Hopefully this will make sense, say I hit a 'push-draw' by lining up along the target line, open my club face, and swing in to out. Then I get the same results by lining up right of the target, close the club face, and swing along my foot line (straight). Both swings are obviously different. PKTD and Parallax say they are both the same, but won't they give different numbers on Trackman because I am adding then subtracting loft when I open and close the club face?
I'm not really sure what my point is, but it seems like there should be a way to describe results based also on what was done to get those results.

#94 sls7474

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:03 AM

It dosen't make sense to me that you would have to know the target to know the shot shape or that you can move the target and change the name of the shot hit.  Can a golfer with a 10 degree over the top swing close the clubface 15 degrees and aim 100 yards right and hit a push draw?

#95 Weetbix

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:07 AM

What's a push mean if it isn't related to where your body is aligned? I would have thought it would just be a draw if you aligned right and it started that way and then drew back?


#96 Jon Robert

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:56 AM

View PostWeetbix, on 25 January 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

What's a push mean if it isn't related to where your body is aligned? I would have thought it would just be a draw if you aligned right and it started that way and then drew back?

Jack Nicklaus hit a push fade yet his body was aimed well left to send the ball through the air left of the target. Some who reference everything by the target line would say that he hit a pull fade.

So how then can someone aiming well left hit and hist the ball well left of the target hit a "push" fade?????  BECAUSE THEY REFERENCE TH BODY ALIGNMENT LINE


Because the "push" is determined by body alignment\swing line.  The fade part hopefully ends up well right on the target.

#97 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:45 AM

It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....

#98 sls7474

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

So if you line up with the 6 iron and hit the exact same shot and the flag is 10 yards right you now hit a pull? Is swing path determined by your body alignment or your target?  You would have to know someones exact target to determine shot pattern.

#99 parallax

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

As other people have said you can call it whatever you want. You just might be speaking a different language than whoever you are trying to communicate with.

I have never used a Trackman, but I assume that the target is defined in its setup, and that what all the numbers are relative to. The target is defined, and then you align your body, and club how ever you want for the shot that you are hitting.

#100 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

View Postparallax, on 25 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

As other people have said you can call it whatever you want. You just might be speaking a different language than whoever you are trying to communicate with.

I have never used a Trackman, but I assume that the target is defined in its setup, and that what all the numbers are relative to. The target is defined, and then you align your body, and club how ever you want for the shot that you are hitting.
+1...Trackman,Flightscope they are are based off a target, not alignment. Your face angle and path may change depending on set-up, but either way RELATIVE TO TARGET a push draw as defined by these technologies is when the ball launches right of target and the negative spin axis brings it back


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#101 bell812

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:00 PM

This is precisely why I stated earlier that Trackman didn't care where I was aligned. Redneck asked shouldn't the golfer care? Of course!!! That's what Trackman is for! For each golfer to figure out what they must do FOR THEM to bring about the face/path relationships needed to hit the shots required.

#102 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:35 PM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 25 January 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....

In my mind, No, it was a straight shot because you hit it where you intended to with no curvature.

Something just occured to me. All the years that I've been playing, a "push" has always been a errant shot. In other words, it did not go where intended. With this in mind, the idea of an intentional "push" was difficult for me to grasp. However, after reading many of these posts, I see that it is now commonplace to have an intentional "push". I now see that the over complication of ball flight rules is somewhat caused by this. As far as I can tell, "push" now describes any initial ball flight that strays off the target line (straight line between the ball and the final intended resting place of the ball) away from the golfer and "pull" is of course the opposite.

I still see many who are battling to get the total picture of intentionally curving shots. I have always striven for my swing path to be in-square-in to my stance. That way those two things were in sync. I DO realize that many players are not synced in this fashion and choose to play with it instead of change it. Probably a good idea on their part.

To the OP, if your swing path is consistently 20* in to out, then you should have no problem hitting the "push draw" you are looking for. HOWEVER, if your swing path is consistently 5* in to out, then you are trying to make a huge change in your natural swing path JUST to get a specific ball flight. It would be far better to use your natural swing path and work from there. To h e l l with what this pro or that pro does. Working with what you already have is FAR easier than trying to make all those changes.

If your current swing path is flawed and hurting your ability to play, that is a different matter all together.

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#103 Jon Robert

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 25 January 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....


"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."
FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot



There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.
Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.




A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."
Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question:
If you set up facing left with your body line
and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line
and the face was  open
and the ball flew to the flag
then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)

If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.

Edited by Jon Robert, 25 January 2013 - 03:10 PM.


#104 Crab Daddy

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:32 PM

Moe Norman never had to worry about this sh!t.

#105 sls7474

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:49 PM

A square alignment, a 2 degree open to target clubface and 4 degree in to out path gives you a push draw.  Not sure where a 20 degree in to out path came from.  Also noticed that Sean Foley has an article in this months Golf Digest describing this shot exactly this way.  It also answers my original question to start with a square clubface at address and the weight forward and shaft lean at impact will give you the needed open clubface to hit this shot.  
This is a push draw by Rory, ball starts right.  http://youtu.be/hh1-BX8LFWU


#106 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:37 PM

[quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]

[size=4][/size]

[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]

[size=4][/size]


[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]

[size=4][/size]

[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]

[size=4][/size]


[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote]


[size=4][quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]

[size=4][/size]

[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]

[size=4][/size]


[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote][/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]

[quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]

[size=4][/size]

[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]

[size=4][/size]


[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote] Clearly you have an offensive, ignorant nature in the tone of your posts...but i'll let you believe as you believe. Your mention of "when has a negative attack angle ever influenced anything accept spin" and " when has hitting down on the ball ever produced side spin" show your lack of knowledge of the geometry of the golf swing. There's alot of videos available that may help you actually understand. Attack angle has a huge impact on club path which is what determines side spin ( which by the way there's no such thing as- only backspin with an axis that tilts either direction). I'd be happy to prove this to you on my Trackman.

#107 Jon Robert

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359175060' post='6300853']
[quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]



[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]




[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]



[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]




[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote]


[size=4][quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]



[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]




[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote][/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]

[quote name='Jon Robert' timestamp='1359144166' post='6297637']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1359128728' post='6295905']
It's up to you guys how you personally define the term 'push'. The reason it's not straight draw is because your target is not some imaginary point to the right of where you actually want the ball to go. If your target is a hazard, or bunker right of the green, the ball starts on that line and draws back toward the flag, than that would be a normal draw scenario. In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them. Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag. My target was the flag, but I opened my stance to hit the ball straight. Let's hear the analysis on this one....
[/quote]


[size=4]"In the real world, we hit toward targets not away from them."[/size]
[size=4]FALSE   Phil Mickelson's Famous Backward Shot [/size]



[size=4]There are in fact some if not many that do in fact aim away from targets as a normal routine thing.  If the person is constantly pushing right 15 feet at 100yds they would in fact aim 15 yards left and not at the target as you say.[/size]
[size=4]Bubba Watson’s body was NOT lined up with the flag for the Recovery Shot at Masters 2012  He hit along his body line and hooked to the flag He was not hitting toward the target. He was hitting along his body line and using spin to hook to the target. With what looked like a square club face.[/size]




[size=4]A person may choose to hit a very difficult to obtain square club face  They may also choose to utilize to their advantage their tendency to deliver the club face slightly open due to whatever the heck causes it in their swing. Instead of fighting their natural tendencies they use them.  This is the reason some great players made a career out of fades, some out of draws and I'd say very few out of dead straight.[/size]

[size=4]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/size]
[size=4]"Using the body alignment logic, does that mean i'm hitting a push if I adjust my set-up to the left with say a 6-iron and hit down with a negative attack angle (say -4*) and the ball flies dead straight at the flag."[/size]
[size=4]Where has negative attack angle ever factored into anything except back spin?  When has hitting down on a ball ever produced side spin?  In spite of the very confusing attempt to somehow apply negative attack angle to a discussion on side spin --- To answer your question: [/size]
[size=4]If you set up facing left with your body line[/size]
[size=4]and ATTEMPTED TO hit the ball in line with that body line [/size]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote]
[size=4]and the face was  open [/size]
[size=4]and the ball flew to the flag [/size]
[size=4]then YES YOU HIT A PUSH. If the ball  flew dead straight with not one speck of side movement then you did not swing in line with your body line. You in fact swung in to out the same exact amount that the face was open – a dead straight push. ( The very same swing has a descending in to out portion. Bottom center and an out to in upward rise after bottom center. So this in to out can happen accidentally quite easily.)[/size]

[size=4]If you attempt to swing in line with your body and the ball starts right of that alignment it is a push.   It has always been that way. (don’t matter if the flag was your alignment or not –see Bubba above) However some have open stances and make no attempt to swing in line with the open body stance line. So with those people you must find out what their intentions are. Just like some stand closed but have no intention of hitting along that closed line.[/size]
[/quote] Clearly you have an offensive, ignorant nature in the tone of your posts...but i'll let you believe as you believe. Your mention of "when has a negative attack angle ever influenced anything accept spin" and " when has hitting down on the ball ever produced side spin" show your lack of knowledge of the geometry of the golf swing. There's alot of videos available that may help you actually understand. Attack angle has a huge impact on club path which is what determines side spin ( which by the way there's no such thing as- only backspin with an axis that tilts either direction). I'd be happy to prove this to you on my Trackman.
[/quote]

Why all the name calling?  You asked for it "Let's hear the analysis on this one"  You ask for it and then get mad? Why?  Please do show how your trackman reveals that a downward angle is a sideways angle.

Edited by Jon Robert, 26 January 2013 - 10:54 AM.


#108 Weetbix

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

If a push is any shot that starts right of the target and draws back to it then doesn't that mean that every draw that goes where you intend it to (ie your target) is a push draw? So a push draw is any draw shot that you don't stuff up!

That is not my understanding. My understanding is that talking about push or pull is talking about where the ball starts in relation to where your body aligns. In the Nicklaus article I think he's playing a push fade.

If push and pull don't relate to body alignment I don't understand what they do relate to? They have to be relative to something don't they?




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