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Push draw


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#1 sls7474

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

If I am trying to hit a push draw as my normal shot would I set up with the face open or set up with the face square and return it to impact with it a little open.  Right now I am hitting a straight to slight pull draw that is missing left.  For the moment, on the course I line up a little right but it seems the more I do that the more left it goes so I prefer to line up square to target.  I know i need the face open to target and closed to path I am just not convinced of the most consistent way to do it.


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#2 Jon Robert

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

Open the face 2 degrees and swing in to out 4 degrees = OR face the club 10 yards right and swing 20 yards right.  Of course all these figures are adjustable depending how far away you are and how dramatic the effect you want.

#3 sls7474

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

So start with the face open at setup is the most common way.

#4 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

View Postsls7474, on 21 January 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

If I am trying to hit a push draw as my normal shot would I set up with the face open or set up with the face square and return it to impact with it a little open.  Right now I am hitting a straight to slight pull draw that is missing left.  For the moment, on the course I line up a little right but it seems the more I do that the more left it goes so I prefer to line up square to target.  I know i need the face open to target and closed to path I am just not convinced of the most consistent way to do it.

Where you setup the face is very individual and often not related to shot pattern.  For example, Fuzzy used to push the Hozel outside the ball before he took it away.

Hypothetically, your pull could be you are taking the club too far inside and rerouting over the top slightly.

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

If you open the face, visually you might take it more inside and pull it more.



So be careful about "standardizing" this issue.  


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#5 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

View Postsls7474, on 21 January 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

If I am trying to hit a push draw as my normal shot would I set up with the face open or set up with the face square and return it to impact with it a little open.  Right now I am hitting a straight to slight pull draw that is missing left.  For the moment, on the course I line up a little right but it seems the more I do that the more left it goes so I prefer to line up square to target.  I know i need the face open to target and closed to path I am just not convinced of the most consistent way to do it.

First of all, aligning your stance with the final target and attempting to hit a push draw is just making things WAY to difficult. Just like Jon Robert said, you should have a target 20 yds right that you align your stance to and a target 10 yds right that you align the club-face to. The part you are having issues with is then making a normal swing. It is a proven fact that we, as humans, have difficulty completing a process (golf swing) normally when any part (stance and club alignment) are done abnormally. You have to practice make the shot over and over to groove yourself.

Next time at the range, Begin your session by hitting straight shots. Feel the swing and try to groove the feeling. Once you feel like you're in the groove, pick your two points  for your draw shot and setup quickly. Then, DO NOT look back up at the target. Simply make the same swing as you've been making as if everything is still in perfect alignment. Alternate straight and draw over and over. Don't worry too much on the results early on because your body will still be trying to fight the slight changes. It WILL work though.

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#6 PingG10guy

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

Youd need to hit down on it a lot to counteract right?

#7 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostPingG10guy, on 21 January 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

Youd need to hit down on it a lot to counteract right?

Right.  I was just trying to tell the OP that there is more to hitting a push draw than just opening the face at address.
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#8 sls7474

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

The only reason to hit a push draw is so I can line up straight to my target (right)?.  If i line up 20 yards right and aim the clubface 10 yards right won't I just hit a pull draw?  I can hit the shot with my normal setup and just aim right like i am doing now.

#9 Crab Daddy

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

'Left' relative to what?


#10 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:13 PM

View PostCrab Daddy, on 21 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

'Left' relative to what?

Target line

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#11 Crab Daddy

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

View PostCrab Daddy, on 21 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

'Left' relative to what?

Target line

C'mon, you know that needs more explainin'.
How is the ball going to have counter clockwise spin (horizontal plane) if the path is left of the target line and the face open to (right of) the target line?


#12 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostCrab Daddy, on 21 January 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

View PostCrab Daddy, on 21 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

'Left' relative to what?

Target line

C'mon, you know that needs more explainin'.
How is the ball going to have counter clockwise spin (horizontal plane) if the path is left of the target line and the face open to (right of) the target line?

D-plane.

It's not important for everyone to know this, and actually quite confusing.  I just used this in the context of him wanting to open the face to hit a push draw and letting him know there are more factors.

A steep down angle of attack can send the ball right of the swing path with a draw.  

I said the same thing when I was first introduced to this concept, but did some time on a Trackman hitting balls to prove it to myself and was able to produce a left path push draw.  


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#13 Crab Daddy

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

View PostCrab Daddy, on 21 January 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

View PostCrab Daddy, on 21 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Also. You can hit a push draw with a left path.

'Left' relative to what?

Target line

C'mon, you know that needs more explainin'.
How is the ball going to have counter clockwise spin (horizontal plane) if the path is left of the target line and the face open to (right of) the target line?

D-plane.

It's not important for everyone to know this, and actually quite confusing.  I just used this in the context of him wanting to open the face to hit a push draw and letting him know there are more factors.

A steep down angle of attack can send the ball right of the swing path with a draw.  

I said the same thing when I was first introduced to this concept, but did some time on a Trackman hitting balls to prove it to myself and was able to produce a left path push draw.  

I'll look into D plane, but it only makes sense (to me, at this time) if you're swinging left but make contact before your normal low/contact point, shifting the tangent to your swing arc (horizontal force vector) to the right.
But, I don't want to keep on thread-jacking.

Edited by Crab Daddy, 21 January 2013 - 05:53 PM.


#14 PingG10guy

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:58 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Right.  I was just trying to tell the OP that there is more to hitting a push draw than just opening the face at address.

Still talking push draw Im inclined to believe I have a tendency to suck the club away inside if I have it too closed over the ball.  I setup with a strong grip though, and the handle infront of the ball and slightly lower hands than most.  The day I get my takeaway inline when the shaft is at first parallel on every swing (P2 in TGM Morad words) is the day I shoot par or better.

I appreciate your notion to include "another" way to hit the shot shape.  Hitting down means the path is moving down and out, but lag is a steepening move for most.  Me included.  Its a conundrum if the balance is bad.

#15 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

View PostPingG10guy, on 21 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 21 January 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Right.  I was just trying to tell the OP that there is more to hitting a push draw than just opening the face at address.

Still talking push draw Im inclined to believe I have a tendency to suck the club away inside if I have it too closed over the ball.  I setup with a strong grip though, and the handle infront of the ball and slightly lower hands than most.  The day I get my takeaway inline when the shaft is at first parallel on every swing (P2 in TGM Morad words) is the day I shoot par or better.

I appreciate your notion to include "another" way to hit the shot shape.  Hitting down means the path is moving down and out, but lag is a steepening move for most.  Me included.  Its a conundrum if the balance is bad.

Lag is an outdated concept as a pursuit.  It's a result.  Those who attempt to lag the club directly end up too steep in both shaft angle and AoA.

Trying to lag the club on purpose is as purposeful as slamming a broken finger in a car door to straighten it out.

"Laggers" will find as soon as they abandon that angle (nice double entendre) and just try and make their swing better...AoA will start heading to an optimum level, as will shaft lean at impact.  

The important issue.  Lag is not absent because you aren't actively producing it.

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#16 AllenResGolf

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

Monte, was your body alingment left, and was that with the driver?

#17 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:23 PM

View PostAllenResGolf, on 21 January 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Monte, was your body alingment left, and was that with the driver?

Slightly and no.
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#18 sls7474

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

So the reason to hit a push draw is so you can align to your target and and still hit a draw to your target? 5 yard push and 5 yard draw brings you to target. So the clubface has to be open to the target at impact to get the push part of the push draw?  Do the good players/pros open the face at address and return the club there at impact to get the push or do they address with the clubface square and  at impact the club is not quite square to get the push?

#19 cbrian

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:52 AM

Two thoughts for the OP:

When it comes to dialing in what you have or working on shot shaping, just remember that setup alignments are variables and there is no right answer.

Your issue might have more do with path than clubface. Obviously you can minimize the curve and get the start direction better by shifting the face to the right, but if path is too right, your shot cone might not get any tighter.

#20 Weetbix

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:33 AM

My stock shape is a push draw. I set up all square to the target line with my body, but the face is a little closed.   This set up works for me because I naturaally swing on an in to out path, and I also naturallly get to impact with the face a bit open compared to address. Bad shot is either a straight pushor, if I get lazy and stall I hit a hook. That's pretty rare though so my play is to allow for the ball to finish right and make sure  that that wont put me in trouble.

I think that you should find out what your natural swing path is, without manipulation, and then manipulate your body alignment and grip to get the shot you want. Even more though, I'd choose to play the shape that best suits your natural path as it relates to. your stance line. If you naturally swing out to in then play a fade to come back to your stance line. I chose a push draw instead of a pull fade because that is what worked with a square body alignment and my natural path.

Edited by Weetbix, 22 January 2013 - 07:35 AM.


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#21 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:06 PM

View Postsls7474, on 21 January 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

So the reason to hit a push draw is so you can align to your target and and still hit a draw to your target? 5 yard push and 5 yard draw brings you to target. So the clubface has to be open to the target at impact to get the push part of the push draw?  Do the good players/pros open the face at address and return the club there at impact to get the push or do they address with the clubface square and  at impact the club is not quite square to get the push?

The only reason to hit the push draw you're describing, is if your natural swing path is severely in to out (20*, IMHO, is severe). Most golfers will use their typical swing path (in relation to their stance), and adjust from there. It makes things a heck of a lot simpler. And just between me and you, anything that makes golf simpler, you ought to strongly consider!!

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#22 PingG10guy

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 22 January 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postsls7474, on 21 January 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

So the reason to hit a push draw is so you can align to your target and and still hit a draw to your target? 5 yard push and 5 yard draw brings you to target. So the clubface has to be open to the target at impact to get the push part of the push draw?  Do the good players/pros open the face at address and return the club there at impact to get the push or do they address with the clubface square and  at impact the club is not quite square to get the push?

The only reason to hit the push draw you're describing, is if your natural swing path is severely in to out (20*, IMHO, is severe). Most golfers will use their typical swing path (in relation to their stance), and adjust from there. It makes things a heck of a lot simpler. And just between me and you, anything that makes golf simpler, you ought to strongly consider!!

BT

I'd hit that shot all the time if i could lol

#23 Jon Robert

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

View Postsls7474, on 21 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

The only reason to hit a push draw is so I can line up straight to my target (right)?.  If i line up 20 yards right and aim the clubface 10 yards right won't I just hit a pull draw?  I can hit the shot with my normal setup and just aim right like i am doing now.
\

Pull?  You can't pull if everything is happening to the right.  But yes you will be hitting a pull draw in relation to your swing path – but this is irrelevant since you could care less about swing path, the issue is the target. In relation to the target the shot will be a push draw.

The "reason" for hitting a push draw is found in all the bad things that can be produced in the various swings.  Loss of wrist hinge, loss of power, slicing action etc.  In the final analysis the push draw has the least downside.

I recommend that you buy the book Stack and Tilt or get from library and read the section Circles and Cones.

#24 DoctorLoomis

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:08 PM

There is a misconception in this thread that needs to be corrected. You absolutely can not hit a functional push draw with a path that's left of the TARGET line.....unless you hit it on the toe and that's another conversation in itself. You can hit a functional push draw with a SWING DIRECTION that's left of the target line. These two entities, path and swing direction, are different and this distinction needs to be made before any more confusion occurs.

#25 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostDoctorLoomis, on 22 January 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

There is a misconception in this thread that needs to be corrected. You absolutely can not hit a functional push draw with a path that's left of the TARGET line.....unless you hit it on the toe and that's another conversation in itself. You can hit a functional push draw with a SWING DIRECTION that's left of the target line. These two entities, path and swing direction, are different and this distinction needs to be made before any more confusion occurs.
  agreed...you'd have to be just slightly left of the target with the direction, also be pretty steep with attack to create a scenario where the 'true' path would be positive with a negative swing direction. Congrats on the big win Sunday!

Edited by PutterKilledTheDream, 22 January 2013 - 03:52 PM.


#26 parallax

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

View PostDoctorLoomis, on 22 January 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

There is a misconception in this thread that needs to be corrected. You absolutely can not hit a functional push draw with a path that's left of the TARGET line.....unless you hit it on the toe and that's another conversation in itself. You can hit a functional push draw with a SWING DIRECTION that's left of the target line. These two entities, path and swing direction, are different and this distinction needs to be made before any more confusion occurs.

So what is the difference between "path" and "swing direction"?

I would guess that "swing direction" is the line that the "path" arc projects onto the ground plane (or where the plane of the arc intersects with the ground plane).

Edited by parallax, 22 January 2013 - 04:11 PM.


#27 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:58 PM

View PostDoctorLoomis, on 22 January 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

There is a misconception in this thread that needs to be corrected. You absolutely can not hit a functional push draw with a path that's left of the TARGET line.....unless you hit it on the toe and that's another conversation in itself. You can hit a functional push draw with a SWING DIRECTION that's left of the target line. These two entities, path and swing direction, are different and this distinction needs to be made before any more confusion occurs.

Thanks Joe, I did a poor job of making that distinction.
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#28 parallax

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:39 PM



#29 parallax

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:40 PM



#30 jabrch

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:53 PM

View Postparallax, on 22 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:



That was really a good video.  Thanks!

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