54 replies to this topic

[JamesBurg]

moseskipkip, on 28 January 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

JamesBurg, on 27 January 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Sabre3, on 26 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

moseskipkip, on 26 January 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Sabre, I don't know if you ever visit the FGI forums, but there was a long thread titled "Beyond Belief" which did have a Link to an instruction e-book called "The Master Key" by Noel Thomas (I think!)
Still a work in progress, but it's working for me!

I would post a link but I'm not that smart!

Not familiar with the fgi forums. I'll google master key thanks.

Google golf swing master key.  Best golf swing instruction ever written IMO.

The review of this at livestrong.com  has the instruction all wrong.  Very puzzling.

James, Again we fight the good fight for the Master Key (Moses2801 - FGI)

I think some people who research the Master Key might be put off by the fact,perversly, that it only cost 6 of your fine US Dollars, as if it can only be worthwhile if you spend many times that, well verses other instructional material/pro lessons I've shelled out my hard earned sterling for,I would gladly pay many times that.

It is particularly good for those of us burdened with Left-handedness. Put your hands up any lefty that's tied themselves in knots trying to read conventional left hand/right hand instruction (Not that hand,fool, the other one!)

I have no connection or interests with those selling this e-book, it just plain works for me!

And I know others that it works for.  Over about 8 years now, someone will see me hitting balls on the range and ask how they can learn that.  I tell them where they can buy the instruction.  Some find me later to thank me.  Some find me to ask why it is not working for them.  The answer to that....You are not following the instructions.  You have all this nonsense in your head that you cannot let go.  You are lost in the wilderness of your bad habits and details that you should never think about.  Some will just never believe that the golf swing is simple.  No,No,No, it's complicated.  I have to do this.  I have to do that.  I have to think about all of this stuff!!!

My rant for today.

[Sabre3]

JamesBurg, on 29 January 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

And I know others that it works for.  Over about 8 years now, someone will see me hitting balls on the range and ask how they can learn that.  I tell them where they can buy the instruction.  Some find me later to thank me.  Some find me to ask why it is not working for them.  The answer to that....You are not following the instructions.  You have all this nonsense in your head that you cannot let go.  You are lost in the wilderness of your bad habits and details that you should never think about.  Some will just never believe that the golf swing is simple.  No,No,No, it's complicated.  I have to do this.  I have to do that.  I have to think about all of this stuff!!!

My rant for today.

I have read it and a few other articles like The one Key Move and swing with your left side. I just can't grasp it completely. I need to feel it. Maybe we could take this discussion to PM but I  am always looking for a key to the swing. I would hate to spend my time on a move or feel I am doing wrong only to derail what I am already working on.

[juststeve]

The trouble with swing keys is that each key only works for a while, then you begin to overdo the key and things get worse.  The man who taught me told me that he would never tell me to do anything I could overdo.  That's how he teaches.  There are a few things to do, which can't be overdone, and good shots result.

If you haven't read the book, Understanding The Golf Swing by Manuel de la Torre I recommend it to anyone who wants to really swing the club.

Steve

[Sabre3]

Anyone have thoughts on the shot routine I outlined in my earlier post? Does a shot routine help eliminate the "hit" instinct.

[YMark]

[quote name='JamesBurg' timestamp='1359436261' post='6319981']
[quote name='moseskipkip' timestamp='1359370741' post='6313285']
[quote name='JamesBurg' timestamp='1359346448' post='6312527']
[quote name='Sabre3' timestamp='1359250328' post='6305423']
[quote name='moseskipkip' timestamp='1359242446' post='6304687']
Sabre, I don't know if you ever visit the FGI forums, but there was a long thread titled "Beyond Belief" which did have a Link to an instruction e-book called "The Master Key" by Noel Thomas (I think!)
Still a work in progress, but it's working for me!

I would post a link but I'm not that smart!
[/quote]Not familiar with the fgi forums. I'll google master key thanks.
[/quote]

Google golf swing master key.  Best golf swing instruction ever written IMO.

The review of this at livestrong.com  has the instruction all wrong.  Very puzzling.
[/quote]


James, Again we fight the good fight for the Master Key (Moses2801 - FGI)

I think some people who research the Master Key might be put off by the fact,perversly, that it only cost 6 of your fine US Dollars, as if it can only be worthwhile if you spend many times that, well verses other instructional material/pro lessons I've shelled out my hard earned sterling for,I would gladly pay many times that.

It is particularly good for those of us burdened with Left-handedness. Put your hands up any lefty that's tied themselves in knots trying to read conventional left hand/right hand instruction (Not that hand,fool, the other one!)

I have no connection or interests with those selling this e-book, it just plain works for me!
[/quote]

And I know others that it works for.  Over about 8 years now, someone will see me hitting balls on the range and ask how they can learn that.  I tell them where they can buy the instruction.  Some find me later to thank me.  Some find me to ask why it is not working for them.  The answer to that....You are not following the instructions.  You have all this nonsense in your head that you cannot let go.  You are lost in the wilderness of your bad habits and details that you should never think about.  Some will just never believe that the golf swing is simple.  No,No,No, it's complicated.  I have to do this.  I have to do that.  I have to think about all of this stuff!!!

My rant for today.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I can buy into this. Someone sees you hitting balls and asks you how they can learn what? They don't know what you're keying off or what's going through your mind. What exactly do they say to you?

[Jarri]

isaacbm, on 27 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

two drills:

1  Hit hundreds and hundreds of balls with your eyes closed.
2  Hit hundreds and hundreds of balls with your feet together.

You would be surprised at the results especially with hitting balls with eyes closed... The biggest reason people HIT at the ball is that they feel there is a necessity to guide the club to the ball. While a free swing does not adjust to WHERE THE BALL IS.... the ball position is adjusted to the swing path that results from free swinging.

Hitting balls with eyes closed helps you ingrain that. As you cannot see the ball, the only thing you can do is stay in your posture and swing and HOPE you hit the ball...

if you hit off the toe, you know you are standing a bit too far
if you completely miss the ball you are too far from the ball
if you miss it because the club went over the ball, you're coming out of posture
If you miss it towards the heel you are too close

etc etc....

Hope you are getting the drift of it... This drill forces you to position yourself better so that a free swing makes contact in the middle of the face, instead of making corrections (normally through hands) mid swing to get to the ball.

Try it... it will get you SWINGING in less than 30 balls, trust me.

[Sabre3]

Jarri, on 29 January 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

isaacbm, on 27 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

two drills:

1  Hit hundreds and hundreds of balls with your eyes closed.
2  Hit hundreds and hundreds of balls with your feet together.

You would be surprised at the results especially with hitting balls with eyes closed... The biggest reason people HIT at the ball is that they feel there is a necessity to guide the club to the ball. While a free swing does not adjust to WHERE THE BALL IS.... the ball position is adjusted to the swing path that results from free swinging.

Hitting balls with eyes closed helps you ingrain that. As you cannot see the ball, the only thing you can do is stay in your posture and swing and HOPE you hit the ball...

if you hit off the toe, you know you are standing a bit too far
if you completely miss the ball you are too far from the ball
if you miss it because the club went over the ball, you're coming out of posture
If you miss it towards the heel you are too close

etc etc....

Hope you are getting the drift of it... This drill forces you to position yourself better so that a free swing makes contact in the middle of the face, instead of making corrections (normally through hands) mid swing to get to the ball.

Try it... it will get you SWINGING in less than 30 balls, trust me.

I will give it a try. I am convinced that hitting is a major reason I am inconsistent. Or at least if I can stop hitting I can better evaluate my flaws.

[yasu123]

The hit impulse occurs in adults because you are trying to hit the ball farther...

Even though you might have days where you hit the ball well (for you), its the days where you can't seem to hit the ball that cause you to revert back to hitting at the ball.

[Sabre3]

yasu123, on 29 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

The hit impulse occurs in adults because you are trying to hit the ball farther...

Even though you might have days where you hit the ball well (for you), its the days where you can't seem to hit the ball that cause you to revert back to hitting at the ball.

I have no issue with distance.It's a focus issue.

[yasu123]

Your focus is basically trying to hit the ball better, which is a solid hit that cause a well struck ball which goes further, better flighted, and with control.

These are all the things associated with hitting at the ball as opposed to swing through, or as you put it, manipulating the clubhead to hit the ball.

[yasu123]

Here is what I am talking about, squaring the face into and through impact without manipulating the club face.

I think (and Monte will slam me if I am wrong) about the concept of releasing the club early and not holding the lag.

In this vid if you stop at when the shaft is perpendicular to the ground in the downswing, you will see the toe forward and the face square to the swingpath.

If you stop the vid when the shaft is parallel to the ground in the followthrough you will see the face still angled upward and the toe pointing to the right.

Monte is not taking about losing the angle and casting (clearly the golfer in the vid is not), but how to square the clubface earlier in the downswing to reduce or eliminate the need to rotate and flip the club face over to square it up.



Try this with the slicefixer 9-3 drill and keep the clubface square to the swingpath to eliminate use of forearm rotation and use your pivot.

IMO this is what educated hands really is about, how to NOT use rotation of the forearms to rotate the face into, through and past impact.

It also helps to use a short iron, preset the weight, start with hands forward (impact position) and have some tilt away from target to get your upper body behind ball. Then all you have to do is keep the face square to the swingpath in the backswing and forward to the finish. Check the toe position when the shaft is parallel to the ground in both the backswing and the forwardswing.

Doesn't matter if you want to open the face more on the full backswing, 1 plane, 2 plane, stack and tilt, hold the lag, or whatever, controlling the face into and through impact without manipulation for the average golfer will get him/her to better ballstriking faster than anything else (IMO).

[Pinsplitter59]

Hit the damn thing will you!
you're gonna regret trying to make yourself a swinger,
the reverse ruined Baker-Finch.
I reckon if you get in a position at the top and your first move down puts you in a position to hit it, then hit it..
your body will get out of the way.
Unless you want a girlie Faldo swing he got from Leadbetter who got it from some monkey in the Transvaal.

[Sabre3]

This thread might be losing some focus also.

I just want to reiterate what my goal here is. I would like to try and get rid of the hitting instinct that I feel is causing me tension in my swing and a lot of inconsistencies. I would like to get more target oriented which I believe will help me focus more on swinging the club to get a result instead of hitting at a stationary target to get a result.

[Pepperturbo]

isaacbm, on 27 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

two drills:

1  Hit hundreds and hundreds of balls with your eyes closed.
2  Hit hundreds and hundreds of balls with your feet together.

Excellent drills for balance and control.

[Pepperturbo]

I can appreciate many golfers chase "swinging" the club vs. "hitting" the ball.  But, when it's all said and done, some golfers, myself included, are hitters, and we play well.  The greater point is exploit your God given talents.  Mine happen to be, strength, hand eye coordination and hitting the ball hard at a target.

Do not assume "hitting" the ball is the cause of tension; tension in the body is mental.

[moseskipkip]

Sabre, Are you talking about the urge to lash at the ball on a mid/long iron shot, for example? Try a few range sessions with the sole objective of focusing mentally on your target and letting your subconscious deal with the swing. Also be aware of any tension
in your arms and purposely relax them as appropriate. Just trying to help with things that really help  me.

[Sabre3]

moseskipkip, on 29 January 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Sabre, Are you talking about the urge to lash at the ball on a mid/long iron shot, for example? Try a few range sessions with the sole objective of focusing mentally on your target and letting your subconscious deal with the swing. Also be aware of any tension
in your arms and purposely relax them as appropriate. Just trying to help with things that really help  me.

that is basically it. It could be with any club. Its the feeling of being stuck over the ball sometimes or the need to manipulate my hands coming into impact. Tension creeps in when I hit at the ball and my objective seems to be to get the club to the ball and not through it.

[Hookasaurus Rex]

Jon Robert, on 21 January 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

This actually works. Try to keep the butt end of the shaft pointed at the ball as long as humanly possible in the down swing. It will prevent the over the top/ casting that is common to "hitting" the ball.  Force yourself to stay with it eventually the memories of over the top casting will be replaced with a real golf “swing”

Great tip, and it is what I do.  It's my swing thought with the driver.  I try to pull the butt end of the grip to the ball.  That helps me keep my wrist angle as long as I can.

[JPeacockGolf]

Hookasaurus Rex, on 29 January 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Jon Robert, on 21 January 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

This actually works. Try to keep the butt end of the shaft pointed at the ball as long as humanly possible in the down swing. It will prevent the over the top/ casting that is common to "hitting" the ball.  Force yourself to stay with it eventually the memories of over the top casting will be replaced with a real golf “swing”

Great tip, and it is what I do.  It's my swing thought with the driver.  I try to pull the butt end of the grip to the ball.  That helps me keep my wrist angle as long as I can.

Be very careful here because pulling the grip will lead to a flip and hookasaurus and even worse shankapottamus

[Pepperturbo]

Sabre3, on 29 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Anyone have thoughts on the shot routine I outlined in my earlier post? Does a shot routine help eliminate the "hit" instinct.

"NO", because the instinct doesn't occur till you're over the ball.  However, it helps if during pre-shot routine visual occupies the mind.  Establish focus on not only your target, but how the ball is going to travel to the target.  I accomplish that by standing behind the ball and drawing a line from my ball to an intermediate target, then to the actual target I am aiming at, then I address the ball with that visual in mind, then let my hit instinct take over.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 29 January 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[moseskipkip]

Sabre3, on 29 January 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

moseskipkip, on 29 January 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Sabre, Are you talking about the urge to lash at the ball on a mid/long iron shot, for example? Try a few range sessions with the sole objective of focusing mentally on your target and letting your subconscious deal with the swing. Also be aware of any tension
in your arms and purposely relax them as appropriate. Just trying to help with things that really help  me.

that is basically it. It could be with any club. Its the feeling of being stuck over the ball sometimes or the need to manipulate my hands coming into impact. Tension creeps in when I hit at the ball and my objective seems to be to get the club to the ball and not through it.

I know exactly what you mean now. I've had to deal with exactly that problem, which creates an ugly cut off swing. Fat chunked shots, head up thins, the lot.

I offer advise not as a professional teacher or elite player but as a fellow golfer that is where I have been. Just to fill you in on who is seeking to give you advise - A few years ago I managed to play off 10, almost entirely by virtue of a great short game, in relation to the rest of my game. I would have traded my tee game with any 28 h'capper, I would of course hit occasional good or even great shots, but I never truly felt in control. My tipping point came after shooting a 1 over gross in a comp with the course set up long with the tricky pins. It was exhausting! At no time still was I in control. I decided as soon as I ended that round that I would have find a swing somewhere to ever achieve anything near that again. I have now drifted up to 14, but I haven't played in a comp. for 8 months with one thing and another so I hope my h'cap is somewhat lagging behind me! But I guarantee I'm 10 times the golfer I was back then. It's because I'm so excited by the prospect of the coming golf season I wish to share my experience with you.
Here is what has brought me to this point
1) Golf is not a game of perfect - Dr Bob Rotella (or anything else by Dr Bob)
I know other psychology books are out there, I can't comment on them because I stopped looking for anything else as soon as I started reading it.

2) As previously mentioned The Master Key - Noel Thomas

3)I've tinkered with clubs, a lot! But the latest tinker has been a revelation. I've gone lightweight and although I've only lost about 30grms in each club, I feel so much more in control of the take away and back swing, which leads to a good position to start and COMPLETE the down swing.

Sorry for the long post, but i genuinely want others  
to feel this excited  about their golf.

I do hope you get there!

[JamesBurg]

Sabre3, on 29 January 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

JamesBurg, on 29 January 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

And I know others that it works for.  Over about 8 years now, someone will see me hitting balls on the range and ask how they can learn that.  I tell them where they can buy the instruction.  Some find me later to thank me.  Some find me to ask why it is not working for them.  The answer to that....You are not following the instructions.  You have all this nonsense in your head that you cannot let go.  You are lost in the wilderness of your bad habits and details that you should never think about.  Some will just never believe that the golf swing is simple.  No,No,No, it's complicated.  I have to do this.  I have to do that.  I have to think about all of this stuff!!!

My rant for today.

I have read it and a few other articles like The one Key Move and swing with your left side. I just can't grasp it completely. I need to feel it. Maybe we could take this discussion to PM but I  am always looking for a key to the swing. I would hate to spend my time on a move or feel I am doing wrong only to derail what I am already working on.

Please, no PMs.  I don't have that much time.

You say you need to feel it.  OK, do the lead hand only drill.  Take your regular setup, but take your grip only with your lead hand.  Just let your trailing arm hang at your side.  Using full extension, I think you will find that the only way you can make anything like a 1/2 golf swing is with your body, hand, momentum, and centrifugal force.  No arm swinging.  This should give you the feel of lead shoulder control.  You say you have read the golf swing master key book.  If you decide you want to learn this, you will need to read it some more.

[DrJet]

I'm sorry if I'm hijacking the topic. I'm a 12 handicapper and not regarded as a long hitter. I hit my 6 iron between 155 and 160 yards and I'm using Tourstage Z101 with S400 shaft. Since I have bought this club as used and loved the feel,I have had no intention to change my shaft. Later I bought another tourstage VIQ iron with 85 gram shaft. I believe that S400 is about 120 ~ 130 grams per shaft and I expected that I could hit VIQ iron longer than Z101. Funny thing is that I hit my Z101 irons longer. So I went to golfsmith today and tested various irons including TM RocketBladez, Callaway razor X, razor Hot, etc. with different shaft options. There is virtually no difference in terms of distance and strange enough I hit razor x with PX 6.0 shaft the longest. People usually say that the lighter the shaft is the longer the ball goes. But this is not my case. I feel like I can hit down the ball pretty well and my ball usually stops within 1 foot for irons 6 and higher. Like OP said, I wonder whether I'm not swinging but rather hitting the ball. I asked my question to my teaching pro and he didn't really have an answer. I would greatly appreciate if anyone can shade a light on my problem.

[gvogel]

Sabre3, on 29 January 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

This thread might be losing some focus also.

I just want to reiterate what my goal here is. I would like to try and get rid of the hitting instinct that I feel is causing me tension in my swing and a lot of inconsistencies. I would like to get more target oriented which I believe will help me focus more on swinging the club to get a result instead of hitting at a stationary target to get a result.

HItting the ball with my eyes closed really worked for me last summer.

I played 5 straight rounds while closing my eyes on my tee shots.  My ball contact improved, and I hit the ball very well.  If your swing is getting a bit quick at the ball, closing your eyes can be a breakthrough.  but, you need to stick with it for awhile.

[rainkingjr]

Like Shawn or not, the premise of this video suits what the OP is describing. I have had many struggles in this area. If the ball becomes your target, you are doomed as it does cause parts of you body to do things subconsciously as one previous poster stated. There is a second video of his discussing the cause of the over the top move. Same premise involved and it is 100% correct. You have to become target oriented.