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Face progression on a persimmon driver


31 replies to this topic

#1 freddiec

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

I have to ask this because its been on my mind the last several months.  

What does face progression do for the player?  , specifically on a driver. Does it help a certain type of player, or is it just a visual preference thing?

What type of swingers prefer them as opposed to a driver with little to no progression?

Would love to hear what you think, or know Tad...

Thanks!!


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#2 Bella Woods

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:59 AM

I will be interested what Tad and Charley think about this, but it would seem to me
that the better players probably preferred a wood club that had some face progression
on it - especially the driver.

#3 kevcarter

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

LOL

I used to know this. We had to learn it when Fred Flinstone and I attended PGA school.   :-)

Anxious to relearn it from someone with a better memory...
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#4 jaskanski

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

face progression is the distance from the centre line of the shaft to the bottom of the leading edge in the centre of the club face.

I guess in the good old days of persimmon, it could be used to accurately depict the amount of bulge on the face, since offset  was almost non-existent and hosel location was more or less the same on all models. Since the hosel had a variable amount of whipping onto the club head, the shaft centreline would be the obvious place to measure from.

#5 Ironmaster Oddities

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:11 PM

Would progression (onset v. Offset?) assist in reducing a hook the way off set helps fight a slice?  Would that be why better player prefer it? I have a set of MacGregor Ben Hogan woods that has substantially more progression than my other Macs. We have all read how battled the swooping left hand turns.


#6 jaskanski

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:17 PM

Face progression is simply a measurement, but in relation to persimmon with bulge and roll faces, the intention was for correction of hooks and slices by "gear effect"(do a search!) in the way it imparted spin on the ball. Something with less bulge in the face would be preferred by those who like to work the ball.

#7 freddiec

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:30 PM

Some good info provided above. I would still like to hear what Charlie or Tad have to say, since they were involved with club making and have probably studied this to some degree along the way.  One take away I have so far which makes sense is that drivers with more face progression would most likely have less chance to close at impact (unless the club was hooked ..we are assuming clubface is square down the line) , therefore decrease the odds of a hook. That was kinda my thought as well since the club face is striking the ball sooner than one that had no face progression. The hands don't have as much time to turn over...

#8 Bella Woods

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:58 PM

As far as reducing hooks - I don't know. My thinking was based more on the weight
distribution and balance of the clubhead in relation to the shaft.

#9 xgolfx

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

IMG_0814_4.JPG

face progression

if u dont see it, u dont like ice cream

CHARLEY PENNA

Edited by xgolfx, 22 January 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#10 kevcarter

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:24 PM

View Postxgolfx, on 22 January 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Attachment IMG_0814_4.JPG

face progression

if u dont see it, u dont like ice cream...

CHARLEY PENNA

...or gravy on your biscuits. :-)

I could be wrong.
I have been before.
I will be again.
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GEOMETRICALLY ORIENTED LINEAR FORCE
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#11 xgolfx

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

I must differ with some of the previous posts

First of all, the driver I posted is as good as it gets.
The shaft is in the center of the head. You will not find half the woods made this well.

Next , those who worked the ball, especially with fairway clubs, wanted not only shafts centered, but also a lot of bulge and roll. Seve was among the best, with Lee, Jack, Arnie, Gary, Ben, Sam ,and Ben. If you checked the clubs they used, NOT THE CLUBS THEY ENDORSED, YOU WOULD SEE WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I have a three wood which Seve rejected( Toney made him 3) it was a four wood head with a three wood loft. He hit the famous shot  at the Ryder Cup in 1983 at Palm Beach Gardens on the 18th hole 243 yards out of a bunker to 10 feet with the one he kept. The club has a lot of 4 way roll

CHARLEY PENNA

#12 Bella Woods

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:28 PM

So Charley - better players preferred some form of face progression? Why or why not?
A method of balancing the weight of the head?

I took the liberty of taking the wood Charley posted and changed it to an address
shot, I hope he does not mind.  I also have posted pictures of a Tommy Armour Model 693
driver and 2 wood I have sitting around not shafted or refinished.

They both show face progression as well. I think the best way to look at the face
progression is to start at the heel of the club Charley posted and follow it to
the toe in relation to the center of the shaft (just left of the photo flash on his club).

Face Progression.jpg

Face Progression (3).jpg

Face Progression (2).jpg

#13 guisician

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

Thanks for the ice cream with gravy!


modern: Royal Collection Tour VS
classic: Ben Hogan 1962 Power Thrust
hickory: Tad Moore Tom Morris 1930 Elect
"If it's not fun,
why bother?"

#14 freddiec

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:49 PM

Have to agree with Charlie, that does look as good as it gets. That driver looks like it could work the ball, nice neck and looks to have a good amt. of loft as well. Tee it hight and let it fly.

Edited by freddiec, 22 January 2013 - 11:49 PM.


#15 JRS

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

is it not a manufacturing thing? because the base of the hosel/neck on a wooden club is so thick, the face must start at least the radius of the widest part of the neck ahead of the hosel.

either that or you must cut the face back into the head. which would not only look awful (think offset metal wood), it could not be achieved on the duplicating machines that rough out the shape of the head. labour intensive hand operations would be required to finish shaping the head.

an offset, or at least, reduced face progression wood probably exisists somewhere but every wooden club i've eve seen, the leading side of the neck flows into the top line.


#16 xgolfx

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:11 AM

Shaping the neck of a wood is an art. A club is made or broken by the necker. When the operation was performed with a flaw, a cheap grip and shaft was installed and it became a store club at MacGregor

CHARLEY PENNA

#17 drewspin

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:33 PM

Adding bulge will counteract (reduce) gear effect.

A driver with less bulge will have MORE gear effect spin and be more "workable".

If those who worked the ball wanted a lot of bulge, that was to REDUCE the effect of gear effect spin.

For example, if a right handed player hits it way out on the toe, a wood with lots of bulge will start the ball off FURTHER RIGHT an reduce the result of the gear effect spin -- i.e., the ball would curve back to the middle (draw) -- as compared to the same shot with a wood that had less bulge which would have the gear effect spin the ball further left past middle (hook).

So a driver with less bulge will have more gear effect spin and be more "curve-able" or more "workable".

#18 xgolfx

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

A four way roll face,to to heel, crown to sole, creates gear effect so off center shots will not curve as far offline. That is why Jack used woods  with four way roll

CHARLEY PENNA

#19 jaskanski

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

View Postxgolfx, on 23 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

A four way roll face,to to heel, crown to sole, creates gear effect so off center shots will not curve as far offline. That is why Jack used woods  with four way roll

CHARLEY PENNA

That's what I thought.
I heard Harry Busson once said he made a 3-wood set up with a face to favour Jack's fade. Any truth to this?

#20 teevons

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

Here you go kids, probably way too much information but here is description and pictures of what face progression, bulge and roll, and weight distribution from Ralph Maltbys book

Attached Thumbnails

  • img118.jpg
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  • img120.jpg
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  • img122.jpg
  • img124.jpg
  • img123.jpg
  • img125.jpg
  • img126.jpg
  • img127.jpg
  • img128.jpg
  • img129.jpg

Edited by teevons, 27 January 2013 - 05:56 PM.


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#21 drewspin

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:29 PM

Thanks Tim -- see Maltby page 153 above -

Bulge (aka horizontal roll) REDUCES the EFFECT of the gear effect spin of a toe hook or heel slice, making the toe shot a draw to center and the heel slice a fade to center.

The gearing aspect of the gear effect would be a shot that curves MORE  - i.e.,  more gear effect without the bulge.

Bulge or horizontal roll is NOT the factor that creates or causes the gear effect spin, it is a factor that compensates for (i.e, reduces undesired results of) excessive gear effect spin

Edited by drewspin, 23 January 2013 - 04:45 PM.


#22 Bella Woods

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

View Postxgolfx, on 23 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

A four way roll face,to to heel, crown to sole, creates gear effect so off center shots will not curve as far offline.

I agree Charley (as far as bulge goes).

I think we have to remember that face progression and bulge/roll don't necessarily go hand and hand.
I have seen plenty of hickory drivers with a lot of face progression, but little or no bulge and roll - pretty
much a flat face.

Bulge and roll is a relatively new phenomena in the long history of golf clubs.

#23 JRS

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

the amount of gear effect spin is determined by the  amount of head roation about it's COG while the ball is compressed against the face. so CG location and MOI are the factors that contribute to that. bulge and roll simply simply starts the ball off line to compensate. you get plenty of gear effect off a flat face. go hit your 3 iron off the the toe if you want proof.

i can't speak for PGA tour playes but i don't work the ball left and right by missing the sweet spot and using gear effect. you lose heaps of distance. so i don't. i don't see how bulge effects the workability of a club. vertical roll is great for maniluplating the height of your tee shots though. and the gear effect help adjust the spin automatially. hit low on the face it increases spin to keep the ball in the air. high on the face it takes spin off to prevent ballooning.

it's interesting what the book above says about face progression affecting trajectory. i would have though the opposite was true. more face progression would mean the contact the ball earlier in the swing for a more negative angle of attack. is there any chance of posting the text relating to that image teevons? i like learning how things work. even if they don't help me play any better :P

Edited by JRS, 23 January 2013 - 10:37 PM.


#24 kevcarter

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:11 AM

RALPH Maltby = Club repair author extraordinaire
ROGER Maltby = Michelob beer and telecasting

I alway get Ralph's first name wrong too... :-)
I could be wrong.
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I will be again.
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#25 freddiec

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:58 AM

Here is a very nice 1954 M85W. Its been refinished once by Dave Wood, who retained its neck number and its original lines, B and R, ect. Its got excellent Bulge and Roll and sits really square with just the right amount of face progression. I really like the thin neck and pear shaped toe on this club. Dave said he was very surprised this particular club didn't end up on tour and reminded him of Crenshaw's driver that he worked on for many years, the spec was very close to Ben's. As is , it would have been a perfect gamer for many, he might have just adjusted its very very slightly (he said). Of all the drivers I own the old Macs always look the best to me.

Edited by freddiec, 24 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.


#26 kevcarter

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:21 AM

What a beautiful restoration Freddie!!!
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#27 Bella Woods

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostJRS, on 23 January 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

the amount of gear effect spin is determined by the  amount of head roation about it's COG while the ball is compressed against the face. so CG location and MOI are the factors that contribute to that. bulge and roll simply simply starts the ball off line to compensate. you get plenty of gear effect off a flat face. go hit your 3 iron off the the toe if you want proof.

i can't speak for PGA tour playes but i don't work the ball left and right by missing the sweet spot and using gear effect. you lose heaps of distance. so i don't. i don't see how bulge effects the workability of a club. vertical roll is great for maniluplating the height of your tee shots though. and the gear effect help adjust the spin automatially. hit low on the face it increases spin to keep the ball in the air. high on the face it takes spin off to prevent ballooning.

it's interesting what the book above says about face progression affecting trajectory. i would have though the opposite was true. more face progression would mean the contact the ball earlier in the swing for a more negative angle of attack. is there any chance of posting the text relating to that image teevons? i like learning how things work. even if they don't help me play any better :P


JRS:

Are you coming from a standpoint of modern clubs (woods) or classic/persimmon?

Also - I agree with your center of gravity point regarding gear effect - but 3 iron is a bad choice to prove it out.
Obviously COG is very close to the face of an iron rendering gear effect almost nothing in most iron clubs.

#28 Fade

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:05 PM

View PostJRS, on 23 January 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

it's interesting what the book above says about face progression affecting trajectory. i would have though the opposite was true. more face progression would mean the contact the ball earlier in the swing for a more negative angle of attack. is there any chance of posting the text relating to that image teevons? i like learning how things work. even if they don't help me play any better :P

It makes sense to me intuitively (I am not an expert by any means), and I will modify your sentence to express what I think: More face progression means that the ball is set up more forward in the swing for a more positive angle of attack.

#29 Texsport

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:33 AM

I was always told, and pretty much verified it myself, that face progression mostly affects launch

A driver with very little face progression would be a lower hitting club.

Regarding bulge and roll, the strandard was 10" for both.

While a few players experimented with more curve in either, mostly seeking additional distance, they generally returned to the standard because of lost of right-to-left or up-and-down control on their shots.

If I'm not wrong, Mr. Hogan's driver had little face progression and less bulge and roll than standard. He could flush every shot and didn't want the clubface interferring with his pure ball strikes. So, he gave up some distance to keep the ball down and to reduce shot curvature. He dialed in a fade, somewhat, by also having his driver set with an open face angle.

However, I stand to be corrected by more expert posters.

Texsport

Edited by Texsport, 27 January 2013 - 09:33 AM.


#30 Arafel

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

View Postkevcarter, on 24 January 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

RALPH Maltby = Club repair author extraordinaire
ROGER Maltby = Michelob beer and telecasting

I alway get Ralph's first name wrong too... :-)

If we're taking the time to get everything right here, it's Roger MALTBIE not Maltby.


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