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Tee shot that moves over the OB?


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#1 Graymulligan

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM

So this happened in my monday night "people that have played together for 10 years and don't care who wins" golf league.  

Hole 18 runs parallel to hole 14.  Between the 2 holes, there is a driving range, approximately 80 yards wide.  The range is marked as a white staked, out of bounds for both holes.  

The guy my playing partner is playing against tees it up, and lets fly a huge slice, carrying into the range.  Upon walking down to recover the ball, it turns out the ball carried through the out of bounds, and came to rest on the 14th hole (he's a high handicap that fights that big slice a lot, so its not as crazy as it seems for him to be 80 yards right).  The guy who hit the shot gets very excited, as the ball "isn't out of bounds".  We let him play it, as the match was out of reach, and wouldn't impact the outcome regardless of whether he hit it from there, or played his provisional.  

So my question is, does OB mean "anything past this strong of point is out of bounds", or does the OB portion of the course end at the next set of white stakes indicating the other side of the out of bounds?  

The course does not have a specific local rule regarding the situation, and a conversation with the gentleman who runs the course indicated that the issue has never really come up, so there hasn't been a discussion on it.  

Of course, I'd love to have a solid understanding of this type of thing as we do play the same course every year in this league, so it may come up again   Plus, its kind of a fun, weird ruling that I thought you folks who are better versed in the rulebook than I am would find interesting.

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#2 vtnerf

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:32 AM

View PostGraymulligan, on 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

So this happened in my monday night "people that have played together for 10 years and don't care who wins" golf league.  

Hole 18 runs parallel to hole 14.  Between the 2 holes, there is a driving range, approximately 80 yards wide.  The range is marked as a white staked, out of bounds for both holes.  

The guy my playing partner is playing against tees it up, and lets fly a huge slice, carrying into the range.  Upon walking down to recover the ball, it turns out the ball carried through the out of bounds, and came to rest on the 14th hole (he's a high handicap that fights that big slice a lot, so its not as crazy as it seems for him to be 80 yards right).  The guy who hit the shot gets very excited, as the ball "isn't out of bounds".  We let him play it, as the match was out of reach, and wouldn't impact the outcome regardless of whether he hit it from there, or played his provisional.  

So my question is, does OB mean "anything past this strong of point is out of bounds", or does the OB portion of the course end at the next set of white stakes indicating the other side of the out of bounds?  

The course does not have a specific local rule regarding the situation, and a conversation with the gentleman who runs the course indicated that the issue has never really come up, so there hasn't been a discussion on it.  

Of course, I'd love to have a solid understanding of this type of thing as we do play the same course every year in this league, so it may come up again   Plus, its kind of a fun, weird ruling that I thought you folks who are better versed in the rulebook than I am would find interesting.

I would say that the driving range is a stand alone out of bounds area. Anything not located within the driving range limits would be in bounds. So, he would be safe to play his second shot from where it lay.

#3 kevcarter

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:34 AM

Not your exact situation, but applicable.

27/20
Public Road Defined as Out of Bounds Divides Course; Status of Ball Crossing Road

Q. A public road defined as out of bounds divides a course. A ball crosses the road and comes to rest on the part of the course on the other side of the road. Is the ball out of bounds?

A. No. Since the ball lies on the course, it is in bounds unless a Local Rule provides otherwise. However, because it is unfair that a ball on the road is out of bounds and a ball beyond it is in bounds, it is suggested that the following Local Rule should be adopted:

"A ball which crosses a public road defined as out of bounds and comes to rest beyond that road is out of bounds, even though it may lie on another part of the course."
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#4 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:38 AM

No specific ruling, but on a local course there is a dog leg hole with OB in the dog leg  that many players hit over when they cut the corner. The ball may make the fairway of the hole or an adjacent fairway, neither OB.

#5 Graymulligan

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:49 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 18 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Not your exact situation, but applicable.

27/20
Public Road Defined as Out of Bounds Divides Course; Status of Ball Crossing Road

Q. A public road defined as out of bounds divides a course. A ball crosses the road and comes to rest on the part of the course on the other side of the road. Is the ball out of bounds?

A. No. Since the ball lies on the course, it is in bounds unless a Local Rule provides otherwise. However, because it is unfair that a ball on the road is out of bounds and a ball beyond it is in bounds, it is suggested that the following Local Rule should be adopted:

"A ball which crosses a public road defined as out of bounds and comes to rest beyond that road is out of bounds, even though it may lie on another part of the course."

This was the idea that I thought most mirrored our situation, and was what I used as an example when we were discussing it, but I wasn't sure if I was thinking of a local rule someplace, or something more official.  Good find.

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#6 kevcarter

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

View PostGraymulligan, on 18 January 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

View Postkevcarter, on 18 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Not your exact situation, but applicable.

27/20
Public Road Defined as Out of Bounds Divides Course; Status of Ball Crossing Road

Q. A public road defined as out of bounds divides a course. A ball crosses the road and comes to rest on the part of the course on the other side of the road. Is the ball out of bounds?

A. No. Since the ball lies on the course, it is in bounds unless a Local Rule provides otherwise. However, because it is unfair that a ball on the road is out of bounds and a ball beyond it is in bounds, it is suggested that the following Local Rule should be adopted:

"A ball which crosses a public road defined as out of bounds and comes to rest beyond that road is out of bounds, even though it may lie on another part of the course."

This was the idea that I thought most mirrored our situation, and was what I used as an example when we were discussing it, but I wasn't sure if I was thinking of a local rule someplace, or something more official.  Good find.

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#7 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:11 AM

Just to clarify , how the fellow competitor of Graymulligan proceeded was correct ? A local rule specifically addressing this OB situation would have had to be in place for the ball to be considered OB?

#8 kevcarter

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

View PostKILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 18 January 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Just to clarify , how the fellow competitor of Graymulligan proceeded was correct ? A local rule specifically addressing this OB situation would have had to be in place for the ball to be considered OB?

Exactly.
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#9 KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:37 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 18 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

View PostKILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 18 January 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Just to clarify , how the fellow competitor of Graymulligan proceeded was correct ? A local rule specifically addressing this OB situation would have had to be in place for the ball to be considered OB?

Exactly.

Thank you

#10 Imp

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:21 AM

View PostKILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 18 January 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

No specific ruling, but on a local course there is a dog leg hole with OB in the dog leg  that many players hit over when they cut the corner. The ball may make the fairway of the hole or an adjacent fairway, neither OB.
18th hole at Green Valley CC in RI... over the back corner of the driving range net will put you at 100yds, or closer. Hitting to the turn will put you at 175ish. There are also pine trees at the back of the net at this corner. The net is shorter than the trees, so it's go for the turn or over the net (and I've had a few not make it over the net).

Being a right dogleg, sometimes I just open the 3w and slice the ever-living crap out of it. :lol:

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Edited by Imp, 18 January 2013 - 11:24 AM.

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#11 kellygreen

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

View PostGraymulligan, on 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

So this happened in my monday night "people that have played together for 10 years and don't care who wins" golf league.  

Hole 18 runs parallel to hole 14.  Between the 2 holes, there is a driving range, approximately 80 yards wide.  The range is marked as a white staked, out of bounds for both holes.  

The guy my playing partner is playing against tees it up, and lets fly a huge slice, carrying into the range.  Upon walking down to recover the ball, it turns out the ball carried through the out of bounds, and came to rest on the 14th hole (he's a high handicap that fights that big slice a lot, so its not as crazy as it seems for him to be 80 yards right).  The guy who hit the shot gets very excited, as the ball "isn't out of bounds".  We let him play it, as the match was out of reach, and wouldn't impact the outcome regardless of whether he hit it from there, or played his provisional.  

So my question is, does OB mean "anything past this strong of point is out of bounds", or does the OB portion of the course end at the next set of white stakes indicating the other side of the out of bounds?  

The course does not have a specific local rule regarding the situation, and a conversation with the gentleman who runs the course indicated that the issue has never really come up, so there hasn't been a discussion on it.  

Of course, I'd love to have a solid understanding of this type of thing as we do play the same course every year in this league, so it may come up again   Plus, its kind of a fun, weird ruling that I thought you folks who are better versed in the rulebook than I am would find interesting.

OB is defined by where the ball comes to REST...not the path that it travels.

So if the shot came to rest in an area of the course that is considered in-play...then his ball is In-play.
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#12 Sawgrass

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:37 AM

View Postkellygreen, on 18 January 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

View PostGraymulligan, on 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

So this happened in my monday night "people that have played together for 10 years and don't care who wins" golf league.  

Hole 18 runs parallel to hole 14.  Between the 2 holes, there is a driving range, approximately 80 yards wide.  The range is marked as a white staked, out of bounds for both holes.  

The guy my playing partner is playing against tees it up, and lets fly a huge slice, carrying into the range.  Upon walking down to recover the ball, it turns out the ball carried through the out of bounds, and came to rest on the 14th hole (he's a high handicap that fights that big slice a lot, so its not as crazy as it seems for him to be 80 yards right).  The guy who hit the shot gets very excited, as the ball "isn't out of bounds".  We let him play it, as the match was out of reach, and wouldn't impact the outcome regardless of whether he hit it from there, or played his provisional.  

So my question is, does OB mean "anything past this strong of point is out of bounds", or does the OB portion of the course end at the next set of white stakes indicating the other side of the out of bounds?  

The course does not have a specific local rule regarding the situation, and a conversation with the gentleman who runs the course indicated that the issue has never really come up, so there hasn't been a discussion on it.  

Of course, I'd love to have a solid understanding of this type of thing as we do play the same course every year in this league, so it may come up again   Plus, its kind of a fun, weird ruling that I thought you folks who are better versed in the rulebook than I am would find interesting.

OB is defined by where the ball comes to REST...not the path that it travels.

So if the shot came to rest in an area of the course that is considered in-play...then his ball is In-play.

Unless there is a local rule that says otherwise, right, Kelly?

There are many courses that have "internal" out of bounds stakes, maybe even between two fairways with nothing like a driving range between them.  In those cases, governed by local rules, you can be in an adjacent fairway and still be out of bounds.  In fact, I play at a course that uses internal ob on a dog leg right par five to prevent you from playing up the adjacent hole's fairway and cutting a hundred yards off the hole.  But when you play the adjacent hole (coming back in the opposite direction), where the ob stakes aren't keeping you from shortening your path, the ob stakes are not to be enforced.  It's all legal, though confusing for many.

#13 mark m

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

Just an observation: rarely, if ever, do these OB stakes stop a player from going into the range (marked as OB) area to retrieve (or play) his ball.
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#14 Graymulligan

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

View Postmark m, on 18 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Just an observation: rarely, if ever, do these OB stakes stop a player from going into the range (marked as OB) area to retrieve (or play) his ball.

Actually, the rule would be that you're not supposed to play back in from out of bounds.  You're welcome to go pick up your ball, but playing it is against the rules.  OB != hazard.

Sawgrass brings up a great point on the local rules that might supersede this rule, I've played quite a few courses with that same dogleg situation, where the hole next to the dogleg is considered out of bounds, even though the hole is part of the course.
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#15 Sawgrass

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:48 PM

Here's a decision making this issue clear, for anyone who is interested:


33-2a/12

Internal Boundary Between Holes

Q.It is proposed to install boundary stakes between two holes as a safety measure. It would prevent players playing a dog-leg hole from driving onto the fairway of another hole in order to cut the "dog-leg." Is it permissible to establish such a boundary?
A.Yes. For the recommended status of such boundary stakes, see Decision 24/5


#16 mark m

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostGraymulligan, on 18 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

View Postmark m, on 18 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Just an observation: rarely, if ever, do these OB stakes stop a player from going into the range (marked as OB) area to retrieve (or play) his ball.

Actually, the rule would be that you're not supposed to play back in from out of bounds.  You're welcome to go pick up your ball, but playing it is against the rules.  OB != hazard.

Sawgrass brings up a great point on the local rules that might supersede this rule, I've played quite a few courses with that same dogleg situation, where the hole next to the dogleg is considered out of bounds, even though the hole is part of the course.

I understand the rules. Most golfers don't play by the rules. That is why they often go ahead and hit from an OB range area. Some even play from non-course OB property adjoining the course (which ticks off the home owners). Friends of mine live on the course we play and see it almost every day.

Course managers should carefully consider whether or not to have OB stakes that separates course owned property (like the range issue in this thread). Sometimes it might be better to not have OB stakes in these areas. It depends on the situation. I have played all over and have seen it both ways. I have noticed that a few clubs that used to have this feature have taken down the OB stakes and gone to yellow range balls - so as to help players find their ball and move along more quickly. They are going there anyway - may as well let them hit the ball.
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#17 rockinar

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:26 AM

View PostGraymulligan, on 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

So this happened in my monday night "people that have played together for 10 years and don't care who wins" golf league.  

Hole 18 runs parallel to hole 14.  Between the 2 holes, there is a driving range, approximately 80 yards wide.  The range is marked as a white staked, out of bounds for both holes.  

The guy my playing partner is playing against tees it up, and lets fly a huge slice, carrying into the range.  Upon walking down to recover the ball, it turns out the ball carried through the out of bounds, and came to rest on the 14th hole (he's a high handicap that fights that big slice a lot, so its not as crazy as it seems for him to be 80 yards right).  The guy who hit the shot gets very excited, as the ball "isn't out of bounds".  We let him play it, as the match was out of reach, and wouldn't impact the outcome regardless of whether he hit it from there, or played his provisional.  

So my question is, does OB mean "anything past this strong of point is out of bounds", or does the OB portion of the course end at the next set of white stakes indicating the other side of the out of bounds?  

The course does not have a specific local rule regarding the situation, and a conversation with the gentleman who runs the course indicated that the issue has never really come up, so there hasn't been a discussion on it.  

Of course, I'd love to have a solid understanding of this type of thing as we do play the same course every year in this league, so it may come up again   Plus, its kind of a fun, weird ruling that I thought you folks who are better versed in the rulebook than I am would find interesting.

If you hook a ball over water and the ball landed in the fairway, you would not take a drop just because the ball passed over the water. So you would not be OB just because it passed over an OB area. It's where the ball comes to rest. He was in another fairway, so he's good...he can play it. He was right.

Edited by rockinar, 31 January 2013 - 02:26 AM.





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