44 replies to this topic

[lander215]

Mr. Bean, on 15 January 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

lander215, on 14 January 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

Imagine that...rule 25 for these hole plugs.

Maybe you should ask them if you are allowed to repair them..?

What ...

[Newby]

From the R&A


Dear xxx

Thanks for your email.

Yes, an old hole plug as in Rule 16-1, is the plug removed to create a new hole, which then fills the old hole.

However, sometimes a second hole is cut on the green and is covered with an astro-turf plug.  The redundant hole itself is a hole made by a green keeper and as such is ground under repair.  Plus the astro-turf plug is also an obstruction.  The player would be entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b(iii) for interference from this redundant hole.  Equally, if the player has physical interference from the astro-turf, Rule 24-2 would apply.

I hope that this helps.

Kind regards
xxx
Assistant Director - Rules

The R&A, St Andrews, Fife, Scotland, KY16 9JD
Tel: +44 (0) 1334 460000; Fax: +44 (0) 1334 460003

[kevcarter]

Newby, on 15 January 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

From the R&A


Dear xxx

Thanks for your email.

Yes, an old hole plug as in Rule 16-1, is the plug removed to create a new hole, which then fills the old hole.

However, sometimes a second hole is cut on the green and is covered with an astro-turf plug.  The redundant hole itself is a hole made by a green keeper and as such is ground under repair.  Plus the astro-turf plug is also an obstruction.  The player would be entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b(iii) for interference from this redundant hole.  Equally, if the player has physical interference from the astro-turf, Rule 24-2 would apply.

I hope that this helps.

Kind regards
xxx
Assistant Director - Rules

The R&A, St Andrews, Fife, Scotland, KY16 9JD
Tel: +44 (0) 1334 460000; Fax: +44 (0) 1334 460003

Thanks for doing the legwork Newby.

[DaveLeeNC]

Newby, on 15 January 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

From the R&A


Dear xxx

Thanks for your email.

Yes, an old hole plug as in Rule 16-1, is the plug removed to create a new hole, which then fills the old hole.

However, sometimes a second hole is cut on the green and is covered with an astro-turf plug.  The redundant hole itself is a hole made by a green keeper and as such is ground under repair.  Plus the astro-turf plug is also an obstruction.  The player would be entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b(iii) for interference from this redundant hole.  Equally, if the player has physical interference from the astro-turf, Rule 24-2 would apply.

I hope that this helps.

Kind regards
xxx
Assistant Director - Rules

The R&A, St Andrews, Fife, Scotland, KY16 9JD
Tel: +44 (0) 1334 460000; Fax: +44 (0) 1334 460003

Newby - very interesting. Two conditions apply 'at the same time' rather than what I earlier speculated (re: it was only a hole after it was uncovered). The letter implies that the plug is immovable even though it matches the definition of a movable obstruction (can be moved without unreasonable effort). Hmmm.

Thanks - most interesting.

dave

[Newby]

DaveLeeNC, on 15 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

The letter implies that the plug is immovable even though it matches the definition of a movable obstruction (can be moved without unreasonable effort). Hmmm.

This might be because in a conversation prior to the email, it was noted that removing many types of these stoppers/inserts/caps required a special tool. It was also mentioned that frequently these are deemed Immovable by the committee to discourage players from taking them out for some reason and not replacing them.


PS Although there is a reference in the reply to astro-turf plugs, IMO the word plug should not be used because in effect it is reserved for describing the turf plugs. It gets confusing otherwise.

Edited by Newby, 15 January 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[lander215]

The RA responds quicker than the USGA...I'm still awaiting a response from them on two questions, including their definition of a "plug". If/when I get it I'll post it as well.

[Newby]

lander215, on 15 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

The RA responds quicker than the USGA...I'm still awaiting a response from them on two questions, including their definition of a "plug". If/when I get it I'll post it as well.

I have contacts.

[sui generis]

lander215, on 15 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Well, isn't that interesting...I'm allowed to be personally insulted, but my replies are removed.

Clique away gentlemen...I'm done with this one-sided "who you know" mentality in this forum. It's sickening.

We'll all miss your tantrums.  

[kevcarter]

rogolf, on 14 January 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

kevcarter, on 14 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

In my opinion, right or wrong, this is an unusual situation to most, and whether by rule or local rule the Pro Shop needs to communicate a procedure to the players for handling an issue with the added holes. Simple fix.

If not the pro shop staff, then the Committee in charge of the course!  Either way, I agree.

From the movie, Cool Hand Luke, "what we have here is a failure to communicate.."

Missed this response earlier and feel it deserves an lol. :-)

[kevcarter]

DaveLeeNC, on 14 January 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

I just learned that there is a local rule written as follows.


"The black hole plugs or covers on the putting greens are to be treated as an abnormal ground condition. (See Rule 25-1b,iii) Relief will be for interference of stance, area of intended swing or on the line of putt."

I'd give the course a break here WRT publicizing this as the impact of these things is both very rare and inconsequential. However as I interpret the rules this local rule does matter (avoids having to remove the lid to get to a situation of 'a hole made by a greenskeeper').

dave

ps. A junior tournament was held on this course recently, and the existence of this local rule was made very clearly to the competitors.

Missed this too. Thanks for the update!

[myspinonit]

Newby, on 15 January 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

lander215, on 15 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

The RA responds quicker than the USGA...I'm still awaiting a response from them on two questions, including their definition of a "plug". If/when I get it I'll post it as well.

I have contacts.

You are obviously plugged in.

[Newby]

Groan   !!

[Sawgrass]

"Groan", yes . . . but Myspinonit still authored the best golf joke of the new year!

[kevcarter]

Sawgrass, on 17 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

"Groan", yes . . . but Myspinonit still authored the best golf joke of the new year!

My wife would say you guys are huge dorks, just as she says about me! :-)

[Newby]

Sawgrass, on 17 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

"Groan", yes . . . but Myspinonit still authored the best golf joke of the new year!

Fortunately there's plenty of the year left for them to get better