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placing ball on green after marking


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#1 DBo9

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

This is a rules question... After a rainy week i was on the par 3 ninth and i burried my tee shot into the slope on a two level green about 10ft. behind the pin.After marking i actually had to use a tee to get my ball out. After repairing my crater i went to place my ball back and as soon as i let go it started  to roll down slope and ended up going in the cup. we decided i would try to replace my ball in original spot again and this time it stayed for maybe a second then started rolling again and again went into the cup. Finally i just placed it and pushed it into green a little and got it to stay, and after seeing the line twice made the birdie putt. I was told by member in clubhouse it should have been counted as an ace, but the guys who lost hole said it was unfair that i got to see the line twice before putting. Just wondering what the correct play would have been.


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#2 kevcarter

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:46 PM

View PostDBo9, on 07 January 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

This is a rules question... After a rainy week i was on the par 3 ninth and i burried my tee shot into the slope on a two level green about 10ft. behind the pin.After marking i actually had to use a tee to get my ball out. After repairing my crater i went to place my ball back and as soon as i let go it started  to roll down slope and ended up going in the cup. we decided i would try to replace my ball in original spot again and this time it stayed for maybe a second then started rolling again and again went into the cup. Finally i just placed it and pushed it into green a little and got it to stay, and after seeing the line twice made the birdie putt. I was told by member in clubhouse it should have been counted as an ace, but the guys who lost hole said it was unfair that i got to see the line twice before putting. Just wondering what the correct play would have been.

20-3 d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot
If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i)    except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

(ii)    in a hazard, it must be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole.

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

====================================

When I attended rules workshops years ago the test for at rest after placing was 6 seconds. Im guessing that hasnt changed.You are not allowed to press the ball down to make it stick.

Edited by kevcarter , 07 January 2013 - 10:48 PM.

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#3 DBo9

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:23 PM

Thanks for the answer. it was just a small skins game between friends so we werent going to get too crazy trying to figure it out, we just agreed on that solution. But i've always wondered the correct ruling

#4 rogolf

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

View PostDBo9, on 07 January 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

This is a rules question... After a rainy week i was on the par 3 ninth and i burried my tee shot into the slope on a two level green about 10ft. behind the pin.After marking i actually had to use a tee to get my ball out. After repairing my crater i went to place my ball back and as soon as i let go it started  to roll down slope and ended up going in the cup. we decided i would try to replace my ball in original spot again and this time it stayed for maybe a second then started rolling again and again went into the cup. Finally i just placed it and pushed it into green a little and got it to stay, and after seeing the line twice made the birdie putt. I was told by member in clubhouse it should have been counted as an ace, but the guys who lost hole said it was unfair that i got to see the line twice before putting. Just wondering what the correct play would have been.

kevcarter has provided the correct procedure.  You should also be aware of this Decision:

1-2/9

Player Presses Ball into Surface of Putting Green

Q.In replacing his ball but before putting it back into play, a player firmly presses the ball into the surface of the putting green in order to prevent it from being moved by the wind or gravity. What is the ruling?
A.In altering the surface of the putting green, the player has breached Rule 1-2 by intentionally taking action to influence the movement of a ball in play and to alter physical conditions that affect the playing of the hole.
In match play, the player loses the hole - Rule 1-2.
In stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of two strokes and must play the ball as it lies - Rule 1-2. (Revised - Formerly 18-2a/6)

#5 kevcarter

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:14 AM

View Postrogolf, on 08 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

View PostDBo9, on 07 January 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

This is a rules question... After a rainy week i was on the par 3 ninth and i burried my tee shot into the slope on a two level green about 10ft. behind the pin.After marking i actually had to use a tee to get my ball out. After repairing my crater i went to place my ball back and as soon as i let go it started  to roll down slope and ended up going in the cup. we decided i would try to replace my ball in original spot again and this time it stayed for maybe a second then started rolling again and again went into the cup. Finally i just placed it and pushed it into green a little and got it to stay, and after seeing the line twice made the birdie putt. I was told by member in clubhouse it should have been counted as an ace, but the guys who lost hole said it was unfair that i got to see the line twice before putting. Just wondering what the correct play would have been.

kevcarter has provided the correct procedure.  You should also be aware of this Decision:

    1-2/9

    Player Presses Ball into Surface of Putting Green

Q.In replacing his ball but before putting it back into play, a player firmly presses the ball into the surface of the putting green in order to prevent it from being moved by the wind or gravity. What is the ruling?
A.In altering the surface of the putting green, the player has breached Rule 1-2 by intentionally taking action to influence the movement of a ball in play and to alter physical conditions that affect the playing of the hole.
In match play, the player loses the hole - Rule 1-2.
In stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of two strokes and must play the ball as it lies - Rule 1-2. (Revised - Formerly 18-2a/6)

Thanks rogolf. I tried so hard to find that decision, both for this thread and others. I'll try to remember next time!

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#6 rogolf

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:52 AM

View Postkevcarter, on 08 January 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

View Postrogolf, on 08 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

View PostDBo9, on 07 January 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

This is a rules question... After a rainy week i was on the par 3 ninth and i burried my tee shot into the slope on a two level green about 10ft. behind the pin.After marking i actually had to use a tee to get my ball out. After repairing my crater i went to place my ball back and as soon as i let go it started  to roll down slope and ended up going in the cup. we decided i would try to replace my ball in original spot again and this time it stayed for maybe a second then started rolling again and again went into the cup. Finally i just placed it and pushed it into green a little and got it to stay, and after seeing the line twice made the birdie putt. I was told by member in clubhouse it should have been counted as an ace, but the guys who lost hole said it was unfair that i got to see the line twice before putting. Just wondering what the correct play would have been.

kevcarter has provided the correct procedure.  You should also be aware of this Decision:

1-2/9

Player Presses Ball into Surface of Putting Green

Q.In replacing his ball but before putting it back into play, a player firmly presses the ball into the surface of the putting green in order to prevent it from being moved by the wind or gravity. What is the ruling?
A.In altering the surface of the putting green, the player has breached Rule 1-2 by intentionally taking action to influence the movement of a ball in play and to alter physical conditions that affect the playing of the hole.
In match play, the player loses the hole - Rule 1-2.
In stroke play, the player incurs a penalty of two strokes and must play the ball as it lies - Rule 1-2. (Revised - Formerly 18-2a/6)

Thanks rogolf. I tried so hard to find that decision, both for this thread and others. I'll try to remember next time!

The same would apply for pressing a ball into the sand in a bunker to make it come to rest.

#7 Barto78

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:20 AM

So was it technically an ace or was it a birdie?

#8 rogolf

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So was it technically an ace or was it a birdie?

Technically, it was a four - two strokes made at the ball and a two stroke penalty for breach of Rule 1-2.

#9 kevcarter

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

I would say it was a four.

edit:
Oops, too late. I agree with ROGOLF...

Edited by kevcarter , 08 January 2013 - 10:24 AM.

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#10 mdgboxx

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

I'm I correct in assuming, just to be clear, that the OP should have placed the ball further up the slope or even on top of the tier, if need be?

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#11 Newby

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

Yes, at the nearest point at which it will stay at rest that is not nearer the hole.

#12 Sawgrass

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

Btw, the "nearest point" that Newby speaks to is literally that -- not the nearest point back along an extension of the line of the putt. You should attempt to place the ball left and right of the putting line extension as well until you're able to get it to sit for Kevin's six seconds, moving further and further back as you try to do so. .

#13 mdgboxx

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:19 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 08 January 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Btw, the "nearest point" that Newby speaks to is literally that -- not the nearest point back along an extension of the line of the putt. You should attempt to place the ball left and right of the putting line extension as well until you're able to get it to sit for Kevin's six seconds, moving further and further back as you try to do so. .

This is precisely why I posted my question. The Rules Experts/Gurus that can copy/paste any RoG/Decision with the greatest of ease, but, very seldom, (regrettably) will they follow up with advice that should/could/would prevent a breach of that Rule.

It would, surely, be very helpful to promote the understanding of said Rule. IMHO, your reply, and Newby's, cover this topic from A to Z...!


EDIT: And Kevin's, of course.....My bad!

Edited by mdgboxx, 08 January 2013 - 04:21 PM.

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#14 Barto78

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

View Postrogolf, on 08 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So was it technically an ace or was it a birdie?

Technically, it was a four - two strokes made at the ball and a two stroke penalty for breach of Rule 1-2.

I guess i should have asked the question better.  Before he pushed the ball down so it would stay, the ball rolled by itself down into the cup.  What would his score be if he wouldn't have remarked the ball by pushing it into the green and just took the score with the rolling in by itself?  I'm thinking it would be an ace, but am not sure.

TIA.

#15 lander215

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

View Postrogolf, on 08 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So was it technically an ace or was it a birdie?

Technically, it was a four - two strokes made at the ball and a two stroke penalty for breach of Rule 1-2.

I guess i should have asked the question better.  Before he pushed the ball down so it would stay, the ball rolled by itself down into the cup.  What would his score be if he wouldn't have remarked the ball by pushing it into the green and just took the score with the rolling in by itself?  I'm thinking it would be an ace, but am not sure.

TIA.

20-3d/1

Placed Ball Rolls into Hole

Q.A replaces his ball on the putting green three feet from the hole. As he is about to address the ball, it rolls into the hole. Should the ball be replaced or is A deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke?
A.The answer depends on whether the ball, when replaced, came to rest on the spot on which it was placed before it started rolling. If it did, A is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke. If not, A is required to replace the ball (Rule 20-3d). However, if the ball had been overhanging the hole when it was lifted, the provisions of Rule 16-2 would override those of Rule 20-3d.


I can find nothing regarding this "six second test" on the USGA site, FWIW.

Edited by lander215, 08 January 2013 - 04:35 PM.


#16 kevcarter

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

View Postlander215, on 08 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

View Postrogolf, on 08 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So was it technically an ace or was it a birdie?

Technically, it was a four - two strokes made at the ball and a two stroke penalty for breach of Rule 1-2.

I guess i should have asked the question better.  Before he pushed the ball down so it would stay, the ball rolled by itself down into the cup.  What would his score be if he wouldn't have remarked the ball by pushing it into the green and just took the score with the rolling in by itself?  I'm thinking it would be an ace, but am not sure.

TIA.

    20-3d/1

    Placed Ball Rolls into Hole

Q.A replaces his ball on the putting green three feet from the hole. As he is about to address the ball, it rolls into the hole. Should the ball be replaced or is A deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke?
A.The answer depends on whether the ball, when replaced, came to rest on the spot on which it was placed before it started rolling. If it did, A is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke. If not, A is required to replace the ball (Rule 20-3d). However, if the ball had been overhanging the hole when it was lifted, the provisions of Rule 16-2 would override those of Rule 20-3d.


I can find nothing regarding this "six second test" on the USGA site, FWIW.

You won't find anything. As I said, it came out of rules workshops I've attended as an interpretation of "at rest."
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#17 Newby

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

The consensus amongst my cohorts is more like 2 or 3 seconds. But as said there is nothing in writing.

#18 lander215

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

Thanks. I couldn't find anything and it struck me as odd that they wouldn't define that as often as its used in various rules.

#19 Sawgrass

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

This is similar to the requirement to drop a ball rather than place it if you don't know the exact spot it should be replaced. What defines "exact?"  What length of time defines "comes to rest?"

I think they don't provide a specific " six seconds" or "the size of a quarter" in the rules because that would only lead to more debates over very small space and time increments, which couldn't be easily adjudicated. Better to go on someone's judgment, I suppose. In any case, these increments are not specifically defined by the rules, so you have to use something. Why not use what's been provided by RB representatives?

#20 rogolf

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

View Postrogolf, on 08 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

View PostBarto78, on 08 January 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So was it technically an ace or was it a birdie?

Technically, it was a four - two strokes made at the ball and a two stroke penalty for breach of Rule 1-2.

I guess i should have asked the question better.  Before he pushed the ball down so it would stay, the ball rolled by itself down into the cup.  What would his score be if he wouldn't have remarked the ball by pushing it into the green and just took the score with the rolling in by itself?  I'm thinking it would be an ace, but am not sure.

TIA.

When replaced, the ball must come to rest on the spot where it was replaced.  If it will not come to rest on that spot, it is not in play and you must find the nearest spot, no nearer the hole, where it will come to rest and place it there.  If you take your hand off the ball and it immediately rolls away, it has not come to rest.
You haven't convinced anyone here that it was at rest after replacing - originally you said "a second", but that's not at rest in my opinion.  Even 4-5 seconds may not be sufficient if the ball is moving ever so slightly.

Edited by rogolf, 08 January 2013 - 05:36 PM.


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#21 kevcarter

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:37 PM

View Postmdgboxx, on 08 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

This is precisely why I posted my question. The Rules Experts/Gurus that can copy/paste any RoG/Decision with the greatest of ease, but, very seldom, (regrettably) will they follow up with advice that should/could/would prevent a breach of that Rule.

It would, surely, be very helpful to promote the understanding of said Rule. IMHO, your reply, and Newby's, cover this topic from A to Z...!


EDIT: And Kevin's, of course.....My bad!

Copy/pasting the rule is just the starting point. Trying to help people not only with their question, but to help them learn how to use the rule book and decision books. Just need to take a little initiative. It's pretty hard to anticipate all the questions, and I have yet to see any follow up question go un answered, usually several times... :-)

Edited by kevcarter , 08 January 2013 - 05:51 PM.

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#22 lander215

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

So "at rest" can safely be assumed to mean 2 to 6 seconds.

#23 rogolf

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:54 PM

View Postlander215, on 08 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

So "at rest" can safely be assumed to mean 2 to 6 seconds.

I'd never say it's at rest after 2 seconds if there was a reason/chance it could still move.  It is somewhat subjective, depending on the specific circumstances, and that is why there is not a defined time in the Rules/Decisions.
It's one of those situations where any doubt that it was at rest could be resolved that it was not.

Edited by rogolf, 08 January 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#24 kevcarter

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:14 PM

View Postrogolf, on 08 January 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

View Postlander215, on 08 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

So "at rest" can safely be assumed to mean 2 to 6 seconds.

I'd never say it's at rest after 2 seconds if there was a reason/chance it could still move.  It is somewhat subjective, depending on the specific circumstances, and that is why there is not a defined time in the Rules/Decisions.
It's one of those situations where any doubt that it was at rest could be resolved that it was not.

Great answer IMO.
I could be wrong.
I have been before.
I will be again.
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#25 lander215

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:20 PM

I watched a show on Science last night about theoretical physics about nothing. They postulated that if you tee up a golf ball and waited long enough that it would potentially/eventually fall into the cup on its own.

Somehow I don't think that would suffice for some here and the golfer would be disqualified.

In my judgement then 2 to 6 seconds without movement shall suffice.


#26 lander215

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:21 PM

This thread provided some great fodder at my sons ballgame tonight. We were discussing how interesting it was that two other posters provided specific times at which "at rest" was defined, and a third said to trust what has been said because they are "representatives" (I had to take that one by word of mouth as I don't read everyone's posts due to some settings I have).

Then when I summize the situation, the clique bands together to say how that wasn't accurate, and then congratulate one another on their findings.

You guys are a hoot! And the funniest thing about this conversation I had was that it was my friends that read this board that pointed it out to me! LOL!

Clique away gentlemen! Hats off to you, I'd say for shame....but somehow I doubt some of you have any.

#27 rogolf

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

View Postlander215, on 08 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

This thread provided some great fodder at my sons ballgame tonight. We were discussing how interesting it was that two other posters provided specific times at which "at rest" was defined, and a third said to trust what has been said because they are "representatives" (I had to take that one by word of mouth as I don't read everyone's posts due to some settings I have).

Then when I summize the situation, the clique bands together to say how that wasn't accurate, and then congratulate one another on their findings.

You guys are a hoot! And the funniest thing about this conversation I had was that it was my friends that read this board that pointed it out to me! LOL!

Clique away gentlemen! Hats off to you, I'd say for shame....but somehow I doubt some of you have any.

And what contribution of significance have you made?  As someone said on another thread "his m.o. is to blow up threads".
Thanks for that, or not!

#28 Augster

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

As with the anchoring ban, this is golf.  We judge ourselves.  You know whether the ball was "at rest" or not.  

A player knows if he's placed the ball and it is at rest.  Whether it is one second, two seconds, or 30 seconds.  You know if it's at rest or not.

#29 Imp

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostAugster, on 08 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

A player knows if he's placed the ball and it is at rest.  Whether it is one second, two seconds, or 30 seconds.  You know if it's at rest or not.
And that right there is the dispute to some.

Some say that 1 isn't enough.
Some even go as far as saying 2 isn't enough.
Then someone else says that they were told via a workshop that it's 6 seconds after placing, but those workshops were years ago... so the information of 6 seconds may have changed since then, or depending on who gives the workshop.

We know that "At rest" is not defined as to a certain time frame in the rules, and probably for good reason as having to put a stopwatch on it to satisfy something not printed in the rules...  "Sorry, that was 5.43 seconds" is laughable.  

After you placed it without pressing it into the ground (pushing is a penalty), did it start moving. Yes? Try replacing it. Again? Find spot not closer to the hole that it won't.

If you were able to place it without it moving, then remove your marker without it moving (remember, ball is in play as soon as it's placed, marker or not), I'd say that satisfies the test of "at rest".

To me, it's that simple. Putting it on the clock, measuring the time, seems a bit obtuse to me.

--kC

Edited by Imp, 09 January 2013 - 08:20 AM.

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#30 Sawgrass

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:39 AM

View Postlander215, on 08 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

This thread provided some great fodder at my sons ballgame tonight. We were discussing how interesting it was that two other posters provided specific times at which "at rest" was defined, and a third said to trust what has been said because they are "representatives" (I had to take that one by word of mouth as I don't read everyone's posts due to some settings I have).

Then when I summize the situation, the clique bands together to say how that wasn't accurate, and then congratulate one another on their findings.

You guys are a hoot! And the funniest thing about this conversation I had was that it was my friends that read this board that pointed it out to me! LOL!

Clique away gentlemen! Hats off to you, I'd say for shame....but somehow I doubt some of you have any.

For clarity to the rest of you, I would like to point out that I have the honor of having disagreed with Lander in the past to the extent that he's afraid to read my posts.

It was I who offered the term "RB representatives."  And if Lander wasn't afraid to read my post, he might have understood that I was referrring to KevCarter's recountiing his experience at  "rules workshops" in his post #2.  I believe these workshops are held by "representatives" of the USGA.  I also believe that following their lead on matters not otherwise described in the Rules is a reasonable thing to do.

At the time I wrote that in my post #19 (which seems to have inflamed Lander), I had not seen that Newby had made his 2-3 second comment in his post #17.  Irrespective of that, we now have a respectful conflict of information provided by two astute participants on this board.  Lander (and his friends?) in a huge leap of foolishness seems to once again jump to the conclusion that there's a clique operating in opposition to his wishes.  The fact that Newby and Kevin are offering different opinions doesn't seem to impact Lander's perspective that they are part of the pervasive anti-Lander clique.  (I'll also add that in all my years of reading here, Lander is the only person I can recall who sees such conspiracies surrounding him.  I wonder if he thinks that's odd.)

I, like Rogolf, wish that instead of whining about conspiracies and his resultant status Lander would make a more helpful contribution to the interesting discussion that had been going on.  But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Edited by Sawgrass, 09 January 2013 - 08:41 AM.


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