32 replies to this topic

[Aaronpaige]

So after hitting a draw for a while and with these new ball flight laws, I am trying to visualize how to set up for a fade. My stock shot is a push draw. So if I set up square to the ball, and my angle of attack is -5 degrees, 4 degrees in to out with a 2 degrees open face that will produce a push fade. How to i now hit a fade. Should it be a push fade so I don't change anything except face angle? Or a straight or pull fade. Does the amount of downward strike change anything? I'm trying to visualize impact in 3 dimensions, so maybe a link to a diagram will help.

Any help is appreciated.

Edited by Aaronpaige, 07 January 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[bmellisen]

I am not going to comment on the ball flight laws and numbers you are writing about. But I will ask, are you going to be on a trackman hitting the golf balls trying to figure this out?  Because if not, thinking about degrees open and such will do you no good, because you won't have any data to verify that what you think you are doing is actually what is happening. Best bet is go to a range and experiment, try from open stance, closed stance, etc, see what works for you.

[Aaronpaige]

bmellisen, on 07 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I am not going to comment on the ball flight laws and numbers you are writing about. But I will ask, are you going to be on a trackman hitting the golf balls trying to figure this out?  Because if not, thinking about degrees open and such will do you no good, because you won't have any data to verify that what you think you are doing is actually what is happening. Best bet is go to a range and experiment, try from open stance, closed stance, etc, see what works for you.

Yes I'm on trackman. That's where those numbers came from.

Basically I'm trying to figure out how many yards left I have to aim my stance and face on a 100 yard shot. The rest is simple math on the course

Edited by Aaronpaige, 07 January 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[dereckbc]

IMO you are making it to complicated. Change nothing but your aim line to the left a bit, open the club a bit at setup, and swing normal. Just KISS.

Edited by dereckbc, 07 January 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[Aaronpaige]

Open my club face at bit and adjusting my aim line is the intention, but how far left. What if I'm under a tree and have to hit a 40 fade. It's nice to have numbers in my mind.

[jar59]

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

So after hitting a draw for a while and with these new ball flight laws, I am trying to visualize how to set up for a fade. My stock shot is a push draw. So if I set up square to the ball, and my angle of attack is -5 degrees, 4 degrees in to out with a 2 degrees open face that will produce a push fade. How to i now hit a fade. Should it be a push fade so I don't change anything except face angle? Or a straight or pull fade. Does the amount of downward strike change anything? I'm trying to visualize impact in 3 dimensions, so maybe a link to a diagram will help.

Any help is appreciated.

  So what would happen if you set up 6 deg to the left with the face square to the target.  You would swing 2 deg left of the target line with your regular swing and the face would be 2 deg open to the path.  You may need to experiment with ball position, or maybe not.  Essentially, that should give you a compressed impact with a very tiny fade.

The 40 yards curve ball is a different kettle of fish with a fairly severe out to in path, steep descent (depending on needed launch angle), and face wide open.

[HAWKEYE77]

You are saying if you are under a tree and need to hit a 40 yard fade you will be trying to process imaginary Trackman numbers?  That seems like a lot of baggage to carry around for shots you will encounter, but if it works for you great.

[ksgolfcoach]

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

So after hitting a draw for a while and with these new ball flight laws, I am trying to visualize how to set up for a fade. My stock shot is a push draw. So if I set up square to the ball, and my angle of attack is -5 degrees, 4 degrees in to out with a 2 degrees open face that will produce a push fade. How to i now hit a fade. Should it be a push fade so I don't change anything except face angle? Or a straight or pull fade. Does the amount of downward strike change anything? I'm trying to visualize impact in 3 dimensions, so maybe a link to a diagram will help.

Any help is appreciated.

What club is this measured with?

the more your aoa is down the more your path is moving out to the right.  If you are talking about a driver then you really just need to work on hitting up on it more.  For every degree down with a driver you are moving the path one degree to the right.

if you're talking about an iron your aoa isn't too bad, you can aim more left which essentially moves your baseline more left. With 4* inside out I would not just open the face and play a push fade as you state.

[HappyGolf]

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

So after hitting a draw for a while and with these new ball flight laws, I am trying to visualize how to set up for a fade. My stock shot is a push draw. So if I set up square to the ball, and my angle of attack is -5 degrees, 4 degrees in to out with a 2 degrees open face that will produce a push fade. How to i now hit a fade. Should it be a push fade so I don't change anything except face angle? Or a straight or pull fade. Does the amount of downward strike change anything? I'm trying to visualize impact in 3 dimensions, so maybe a link to a diagram will help.

Any help is appreciated.

Yes to the bit in bold. Align more left, club face a little bit left of the target (open to your alignment), swing along your toe line... the face needs to remain open to the path to fade the ball.

The 40yrd fade...... you need to understand that the ball will (give or take) always start where the clubface is poining... so you want to point the clubface where you want the ball to start.... so that's the easy part. Then all you have to do is make your stance/ball position so that you influence the path. If you want a little bit of fade (10yds) you open your alignment a little bit TO THE CLUB FACE with the ball fairly central... if you want a 20yrd fade then you open a bit more etc etc as you're only having to change the path of the club.

Edited by HappyGolf, 07 January 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[JPeacockGolf]

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

So if I set up square to the ball, and my angle of attack is -5 degrees, 4 degrees in to out with a 2 degrees open face that will produce a push fade.
Any help is appreciated.

I think you meant push draw here??^^^^



I dont know if you want to try to visualize all of this in 3 dimensions. Much too complicated. The trackman gurus are all about how the angle of attack will affect the path but this is only because the swing path is an arc and not a straight line. The only part of the path direction that matters is where it is AT IMPACT. That is obvious. Trackman can create too much info for ones own good. The best way to learn to work the ball is to understand why the ball does what it does and then go to the range and experiment. Here is a post where I explained it. (destination is hilighted from the search I did to find the post.)

The word "target" is what makes all of this confusing. Target, most of the time means where you want your ball to end up. People trying to understand ball flight laws sometimes sometimes confuse target and aim point. Think of aim point as your path, target is your destination. If I aim at a tree on the left(path) and want my ball to curve right to a point on the fairway(target), I need the face to be open in relation to my path but closed in relation to my target. So the face would be pointing somewhere in between the path and the destination.  Obviously ball position plays a roll here as a (normal) swing path is an arc and not a straight line where the feet are pointing.

The old school saying of "aim your feet where you want the ball to start and point the club face where you want it to end up" is actually a good way to FEEL this. The new trackman data made a lot of people want to change everything. Sure the new laws show that the reason why this was said is wrong, but it is still a good way to think about it. The only thing I see in the "new laws" is that we need to only open the face about half way to where we want the ball to end up.

So think of your "golfing machine" as having a path and a face angle, and you want to send the ball to a destination. To fade it, set up the machine so that the path  (at impact) is left of destination, and the face(at impact) right of path but still left of the destination. Opposite for a draw. Set the machine so that the path is right of destination, and the face is left of path but still right of the destination.


BTW, as my natural shot is a draw, I aim WAY left and hit a push fade when I need to turn it right. I call it "the tumbler"!! It goes a mile. But you have to aim far enough left.

Edited by thesponge, 07 January 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[Aaronpaige]

Those numbers are with a 6 iron.

[Hoganstriker]

The best laid plans of mice and men...
You don't play golf on a Trackman.
All swings differ some.  You have to learn by doing it and capturing your feel your setup-many ways to do it mechanically.
All the data is ultimately down to YOUR feel and what works for YOU.
No one can tell you how to best do it really.
Searching for a set of numbers?
Wrong part of the brain to be usin for golfin...

[Aaronpaige]

Well I have for the winter up here in Canada is a trackman with a 20ft net in a barn lol.

[dereckbc]

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Open my club face at bit and adjusting my aim line is the intention, but how far left. What if I'm under a tree and have to hit a 40 fade. It's nice to have numbers in my mind.

Simple you go to a driving range and practice. Easiest way is KISS. Aim your foot line parallel to the line want the ball to start, and open the club where you want the ball to end up. All that baggage and junk you are carrying in your head will just mess you up.

Edited by dereckbc, 07 January 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[wobgon]

I can't imagine how Hogan ever made a par without a trackman........... Reminds me of watching a teenager trying to make change in a 711 when the computer is down..............

[Aaronpaige]

That's not the way it works. Hence the trackman.

[ksgolfcoach]

Aaron,

I understand the thought of being to technical but trackman is a great tool. I would much rather see people be too technical with trackman (and therefore their impact and ball flight) than too technical trying to hit positions in their swing.

But always remember this, the impact position on the club has so much to do with ball flight. You hear about these "new" ball flight laws but you must remember that those only apply to perfectly struck shots which happen about 5% of the time. Once you have good numbers it becomes all about being consistant and hitting it solid.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

dereckbc, on 07 January 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Open my club face at bit and adjusting my aim line is the intention, but how far left. What if I'm under a tree and have to hit a 40 fade. It's nice to have numbers in my mind.

Simple you go to a driving range and practice. Easiest way is KISS. Aim your foot line parallel to the line want the ball to start, and open the club where you want the ball to end up. All that baggage and junk you are carrying in your head will just mess you up.

  This is the 'baggage' that gets people confused. The face determines where the ball starts not ends up. The path relative to the face determines how much the ball curves. With a -5 AoA the path is moving about 2.5* out to the right with an iron, which will cause a draw if the face is aimed at the target AT IMPACT. The swing direction would have to be shifted 2.5* left of the target to get the path 'square' to the target AT IMPACT. If you're drawing the ball your face is closed relative to the path..but paying attention to the direction the ball launch/starts will tell you where your face is pointed and what adjustments need to be made, assuming you're hitting the sweetspot.

[kellygreen]

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

bmellisen, on 07 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I am not going to comment on the ball flight laws and numbers you are writing about. But I will ask, are you going to be on a trackman hitting the golf balls trying to figure this out?  Because if not, thinking about degrees open and such will do you no good, because you won't have any data to verify that what you think you are doing is actually what is happening. Best bet is go to a range and experiment, try from open stance, closed stance, etc, see what works for you.

Yes I'm on trackman. That's where those numbers came from.

Basically I'm trying to figure out how many yards left I have to aim my stance and face on a 100 yard shot. The rest is simple math on the course

Except you are working the wrong end of the equation.

Open your stance to the target and move the ball forward in your stance until you get the BALLFLIGHT you want.   Because that is how you'll have to work it on the course, unless you get to hit every shot from a perfectly flat lie....

[Jericho]

Ok using the ball flight laws here is what you do:

You mentioned the push draw = straight stance, swing 4* in, club face 2* open. Thus the 4* swing path creates the draw. The 2* open face starts it to the right of the target yet it's closed with regard to the path.

push/straight/pull are simply terms to explain where the ball starts. A straight draw means that the club face was in line with your stance.

For the fade you'd do the opposite- straight stance, swing 4* out, club face 2* shut. The closed club face starts the ball to the left, the out swing path creates the fade = pull fade.

Push fade is basically a slice...open face to start it to the right and the swing path makes it go futher right.

[Santiago Golf]

here is the easiest way to learn how to hit the perfect fade. take two pro sticks about a clubhead and half apart. then put the ball in the middle. take your normal swing   but try to keep your club on the path of the sticks for the longest time. your results will be a straight shot and ball will fade at the very end. Perfect Fade

[dereckbc]

PutterKilledTheDream, on 08 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

dereckbc, on 07 January 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Open my club face at bit and adjusting my aim line is the intention, but how far left. What if I'm under a tree and have to hit a 40 fade. It's nice to have numbers in my mind.

Simple you go to a driving range and practice. Easiest way is KISS. Aim your foot line parallel to the line want the ball to start, and open the club where you want the ball to end up. All that baggage and junk you are carrying in your head will just mess you up.

  This is the 'baggage' that gets people confused.

Oh I do not know about that. Over thinking it  makes it confusing . I believe in Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). It worked for Jack, Arnold, Ben, Gary, and myslef. Still works for most Pros and instructors today. All you have to do is open or close the stance/clubface a bit at address and swing normal. Nothing else changes and no garbage in your head to confused or think about. If I had all that garbage in my head I would FREEZE over the ball and TENSE up. I KISS it.

Edited by dereckbc, 08 January 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[mikpga]

Are you setting up with a protractor?

[PutterKilledTheDream]

dereckbc, on 08 January 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

PutterKilledTheDream, on 08 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

dereckbc, on 07 January 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Open my club face at bit and adjusting my aim line is the intention, but how far left. What if I'm under a tree and have to hit a 40 fade. It's nice to have numbers in my mind.

Simple you go to a driving range and practice. Easiest way is KISS. Aim your foot line parallel to the line want the ball to start, and open the club where you want the ball to end up. All that baggage and junk you are carrying in your head will just mess you up.

  This is the 'baggage' that gets people confused.

Oh I do not know about that. Over thinking it  makes it confusing . I believe in Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). It worked for Jack, Arnold, Ben, Gary, and myslef. Still works for most Pros and instructors today. All you have to do is open or close the stance/clubface a bit at address and swing normal. Nothing else changes and no garbage in your head to confused or think about. If I had all that garbage in my head I would FREEZE over the ball and TENSE up. I KISS it.

agreed, but understanding the true reality behind the ball flight laws helps you know how to set up correctly. You still make the same swing adjustments, but have to realize the ball takes off where the face is pointing, not in the direction your swinging. Your method does work, but you'll never be able to control how much draw or fade occurs if your clubface is aimed incorrectly. It's the same swing motion, just slight adjustments to the face to control the curvature of the shot.

[Aaronpaige]

mikpga, on 09 January 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Are you setting up with a protractor?

No, just standing square to my target line for a draw. I pretty consistancly swing 5 degrees from the inside and I have mark on my grip to put my thumb down to set the club open. I would just put a second mark on my grip for a fade swing. So knowing the numbers I will be able to say for every 100 yards I  have to travel I aim 5 yards left. Just like I have marks on my wedges down the grip  to represent yardages. Makes sense to KISS to me.

Edited by Aaronpaige, 09 January 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[dereckbc]

Aaronpaige, on 07 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

agreed, but understanding the true reality behind the ball flight laws helps you know how to set up correctly. You still make the same swing adjustments, but have to realize the ball takes off where the face is pointing, not in the direction your swinging. Your method does work, but you'll never be able to control how much draw or fade occurs if your clubface is aimed incorrectly. It's the same swing motion, just slight adjustments to the face to control the curvature of the shot.

Again KISS. Here is what i and other advanced players know. The more we want to bend the ball right or left, the more we open up/close both the clubface and stance in opposite directions. We learn how and how much by practicing on the range. That way when it comes to real shots we are not thinking much about it. we just see it and do it by instinct. Some call it playing by SEE it, FEEL it and TOUCH it. Thinking about it just screws it up.

Edited by dereckbc, 09 January 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Your now putting yourself in the same category as Hall of Famers? I played competitively for over 10 years so i'm not sure what your definition of 'advanced' player is.
I've played at scratch/plus levels way before Trackman came along and I assure you, the realities i've learned in what actually happens in the swing have only made me better. Do you not make conscious thoughts about your set-up when trying to work the ball? When you pull the trigger and hit your 'real' shot there should be no thought but not before. Pretty straightforward to me, set up right of your target with the face also right of the target, just not as far right as your feet line. But I promise you, hooding/closing the face left of the target will absolutely cause a miss left 100% of the time. Feel is not real, what you and the greats felt was happening at impact was slightly different than you describe.

[MelloYello]

PutterKilledTheDream, on 09 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Your now putting yourself in the same category as Hall of Famers? I played competitively for over 10 years so i'm not sure what your definition of 'advanced' player is.
I've played at scratch/plus levels way before Trackman came along and I assure you, the realities i've learned in what actually happens in the swing have only made me better. Do you not make conscious thoughts about your set-up when trying to work the ball? When you pull the trigger and hit your 'real' shot there should be no thought but not before. Pretty straightforward to me, set up right of your target with the face also right of the target, just not as far right as your feet line. But I promise you, hooding/closing the face left of the target will absolutely cause a miss left 100% of the time. Feel is not real, what you and the greats felt was happening at impact was slightly different than you describe.

You're a good guy and I'm sure he is too but I'd take his message and put it to you like this...

...is there any information Trackman is giving you on how to start your backswing or go through your transition or how it's supposed to feel at impact? The problem I have with people who get excited about "new" ball flight laws is that they aren't new. They've always existed and the fact that the best golfers in the world were able to reach their peaks without Trackman is probably evidence to the fact that working the ball isn't something Trackman is going to be great at teaching you. It might be good for analysis, but it's not a teaching or building tool in my view.

Analysis of any kind takes a finished product and explains why it works. Trackman does that beautifully but don't expect Trackman to help you go in the other direction. Ultimately, Trackman will only tell you if whether or not your experimental swings are producing the results you want. It won't help you shape your practice if you don't know what you're doing. For that reason, be careful and make sure not to over-value Trackman or rely on it too much. You're intuition is what will guide your practice and vice versa. Ultimately, your intuition is what you'll rely upon when you play the game as well so as nice as Trackman is, you have to get to the point where you don't need a Trackman to tell you what's going on. You'll feel when the face is just slightly open or closed and whether or not you've missed a hair one way or the other. In that way, Tracman will have nothing at all to do with you actually getting better as a golfer, which is why you'll face some resistance from people who don't see eye to eye with these "new ball flight laws."

Take it for what it is. It's a tool but it's limited because you have to find the secrets.

No one ever said that the feels golfers described were a perfect model of what was actually happening but every golfer could use those feels and that's what's important. I'm very much in favor of utilizing technology to fit golfers and to teach us all whatever is most interesting. If you think that you are learning about your swing from what you're doing with Trackman then by all means I think you should try and get the most out of it, BUT you should always keep in mind that out of 5 golfers going down that road, 3 or 4 are likely to hurt themselves and get infinitely frustrated. Remember, even if you feel like you've got it there, what happens when you start playing real golf and the lies aren't perfect? Are you going to be able to feel your way into creating a fade or a draw?

Don't get to caught up in the specifics. Always remember that it's a game of feels and of knowing your own swing from the inside out.

Edited by MelloYello, 09 January 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

I completely agree with what you're saying. I see Trackman as more of a 'diagnostic' tool giving a big picture of the one's swing profile. I'll often hit several shots and not even look at the data until I hit and feel the shot i'm trying to create, then go back to see what was going on at impact. I personally see Trackman biggest benefit as a fitting and ball flight analysis tool. Nonetheless, I do think it's really important to understand the simple realities of face and path relationship. Funny thing is i'm a feel player and I don't get too caught up in all the data; just path and face. Problem is people are still perpetuating the myth that you close/open the face to the target and that the swing path influences the launch direction which is simply not true. Same exact swing thoughts for a fade/draw but changes to the face angle.... thats it.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

MelloYello, on 09 January 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

PutterKilledTheDream, on 09 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Your now putting yourself in the same category as Hall of Famers? I played competitively for over 10 years so i'm not sure what your definition of 'advanced' player is.
I've played at scratch/plus levels way before Trackman came along and I assure you, the realities i've learned in what actually happens in the swing have only made me better. Do you not make conscious thoughts about your set-up when trying to work the ball? When you pull the trigger and hit your 'real' shot there should be no thought but not before. Pretty straightforward to me, set up right of your target with the face also right of the target, just not as far right as your feet line. But I promise you, hooding/closing the face left of the target will absolutely cause a miss left 100% of the time. Feel is not real, what you and the greats felt was happening at impact was slightly different than you describe.

You're a good guy and I'm sure he is too but I'd take his message and put it to you like this...

...is there any information Trackman is giving you on how to start your backswing or go through your transition or how it's supposed to feel at impact? The problem I have with people who get excited about "new" ball flight laws is that they aren't new. They've always existed and the fact that the best golfers in the world were able to reach their peaks without Trackman is probably evidence to the fact that working the ball isn't something Trackman is going to be great at teaching you. It might be good for analysis, but it's not a teaching or building tool in my view.

Analysis of any kind takes a finished product and explains why it works. Trackman does that beautifully but don't expect Trackman to help you go in the other direction. Ultimately, Trackman will only tell you if whether or not your experimental swings are producing the results you want. It won't help you shape your practice if you don't know what you're doing. For that reason, be careful and make sure not to over-value Trackman or rely on it too much. You're intuition is what will guide your practice and vice versa. Ultimately, your intuition is what you'll rely upon when you play the game as well so as nice as Trackman is, you have to get to the point where you don't need a Trackman to tell you what's going on. You'll feel when the face is just slightly open or closed and whether or not you've missed a hair one way or the other. In that way, Tracman will have nothing at all to do with you actually getting better as a golfer, which is why you'll face some resistance from people who don't see eye to eye with these "new ball flight laws."

Take it for what it is. It's a tool but it's limited because you have to find the secrets.

No one ever said that the feels golfers described were a perfect model of what was actually happening but every golfer could use those feels and that's what's important. I'm very much in favor of utilizing technology to fit golfers and to teach us all whatever is most interesting. If you think that you are learning about your swing from what you're doing with Trackman then by all means I think you should try and get the most out of it, BUT you should always keep in mind that out of 5 golfers going down that road, 3 or 4 are likely to hurt themselves and get infinitely frustrated. Remember, even if you feel like you've got it there, what happens when you start playing real golf and the lies aren't perfect? Are you going to be able to feel your way into creating a fade or a draw?

Don't get to caught up in the specifics. Always remember that it's a game of feels and of knowing your own swing from the inside out.

Here's a quick story to help validate some points made here. Friend of mine, Pat gets on Trackman for a session a while back. Typical 6-iron swing analysis with his instructors eyes watching and the Trackman measuring. Pat hits a slight pull-hook and exclaims, "came over the top on that one!" confirmed by his instructor but Trackman actually measures a relatively square ( +.6*) club path and severly closed face angle (-5*). The next several swings Pat and his instructor are trying to work on drill to prevent an over-the-top move. He subsequently hits even bigger pull hooks as he compensates by moving his path farther right. My point is Pat and his instructor both 'instinctivley' assume he's over the top based on the ball flight, and because everyone was taught that the ball started left because he must have been swinging left....typical 'old ball flight law' assumption. Is Trackman going to fix that problem, no...but diagnosis it quickly so he can actually understand what he's doing wrong, yes. This is just an example of the benefit of Trackman. Otherwise Pat and his instructor are going to continue to 'fix' a swing flaw that doesn't exist. The solution in this case was a simple face adjustment, not an anti-casting drill. Will Pat become a better player, maybe maybe not, but he certainly has a better chance in my opinion if he's working on the right things.