42 replies to this topic

[jlbos83]

I don't see the utility of a provisional ball in this case.  If you hit a provisional, and get to the lake and don't see the ball, where are you?  Was the ball lost in the hazard, or elsewhere?  If it is decided that it's KVC that the ball is in the hazard, you may take the appropriate relief, which includes going back to the tee, but the provisional that you already hit is NOT usable for that purpose.  Only if you decide that it is not KVC that the ball is in the hazard may you play the provisional.  I could see the position of the provisional ball influencing one's opinion of whether the ball is in the hazard or not, which is not a good thing.

Given the description given, I think that it is KVC that the ball is in the hazard, when the question "could it be anywhere else?" is asked, it seems the answer is no.  More trees, thicker grass, leaves on the ground, etc., would change that opinion.

To get back to the original question, it isn't necessary for anyone to see the ball enter the hazard.  I'm sure we have all played holes where the ball can get into a hazard without the entry being seen, but no doubt as to it being in the hazard.  A gentle slope into a pond, for example, closely mown, with no place for the ball to hide.  That takes C's original statement right out, as does the decision quoted above.

[lander215]

It would have been interesting to note C's reaction had the player teed up and said he was hitting a provisional...striped it 300 down the middle, and never even bothered looking for his original tee shot.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

lander215, on 04 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

It would have been interesting to note C's reaction had the player teed up and said he was hitting a provisional...striped it 300 down the middle, and never even bothered looking for his original tee shot.

A Provisional ball is not an option in these circumstances. He would have most likely informed his fellow competitor of that fact.

[lander215]

KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 04 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

lander215, on 04 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

It would have been interesting to note C's reaction had the player teed up and said he was hitting a provisional...striped it 300 down the middle, and never even bothered looking for his original tee shot.

A Provisional ball is not an option in these circumstances. He would have most likely informed his fellow competitor of that fact.

Not true, there's doubt being argued extensively in this thread that the ball was in the water for virtual certainty, therefore, he would be allowed to tee up a provisional if it could be lost outside of the water hazard. And since it was C's position that you had to see the ball enter the water (wrongly I might add), that would have been the fun in his reaction to teeing up a provisional.

Edited by lander215, 04 January 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

Once Player B claims the ball went in the hazard, he nullified his phantom "striped 300 yd. Provisional." Interestingly , you now contradict yourself and argue for a stroke and distance penalty via a Provisional.

Edited by KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, 04 January 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[Vindog]

KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 04 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

lander215, on 04 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

It would have been interesting to note C's reaction had the player teed up and said he was hitting a provisional...striped it 300 down the middle, and never even bothered looking for his original tee shot.

A Provisional ball is not an option in these circumstances. He would have most likely informed his fellow competitor of that fact.

Why not?

"My ball could have made it into that hazard, or it could have hung up and become lost in the trees.  Maybe I'll hit a provisional in case of the latter"  In the OP's case it's hindsight, but still it's an option, if you're aware of the course.

jlbos83, on 04 January 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

I don't see the utility of a provisional ball in this case.  If you hit a provisional, and get to the lake and don't see the ball, where are you?  Was the ball lost in the hazard, or elsewhere?  If it is decided that it's KVC that the ball is in the hazard, you may take the appropriate relief, which includes going back to the tee, but the provisional that you already hit is NOT usable for that purpose.  Only if you decide that it is not KVC that the ball is in the hazard may you play the provisional.  I could see the position of the provisional ball influencing one's opinion of whether the ball is in the hazard or not, which is not a good thing.

I get what you're saying.  Yeah, you'd have to use the provisional for stroke and distance penalty, not for hazard relief, I was thinking

Thanks for clarifying!

Edited by Vindog, 04 January 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

Vindog, on 04 January 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 04 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

lander215, on 04 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

It would have been interesting to note C's reaction had the player teed up and said he was hitting a provisional...striped it 300 down the middle, and never even bothered looking for his original tee shot.

A Provisional ball is not an option in these circumstances. He would have most likely informed his fellow competitor of that fact.

Why not?

From the beginning the inference was the ball was clearly seen going past the trees and possibly into the hazard over the mound by all the fellow competitors, you know a ball in the hazard is not when a provisional can be used.
Also, you can not use a provisional for  stroke and distance penalty.

Edited by KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, 04 January 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[profsmitty]

This thread is in the Rules and Etiquette forum. It is the height of absurdity to inject what can only be described as very impolite behavior into a topic in this forum. It will not be tolerated any further by either party involved. You have been warned. Thanks

• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.

[Vindog]

KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 04 January 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Vindog, on 04 January 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE, on 04 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

lander215, on 04 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

It would have been interesting to note C's reaction had the player teed up and said he was hitting a provisional...striped it 300 down the middle, and never even bothered looking for his original tee shot.

A Provisional ball is not an option in these circumstances. He would have most likely informed his fellow competitor of that fact.

Why not?

From the beginning the inference was the ball was clearly seen going past the trees and possibly into the hazard over the mound by all the fellow competitors, you know a ball in the hazard is not when a provisional can be used.
Also, you can not use a provisional for  stroke and distance penalty.

If you believe a ball may be lost outside the hazard you may play a provisional.  Is this not correct?

27-2c even states that you may abandon the ball if it's determined to be lost in a water hazard.

Obviously playing the provisional would put you on your 4th shot from the fairway, as opposed to hitting 3 after the hazard relief (if you took a drop).  So there isn't any advantage to it, but it's an option, especially now with the wording change and the indirect effect of increased "lost balls".

I know it's a weird and probably rare thing to happen though, I'll admit.

Edited by Vindog, 04 January 2013 - 10:15 PM.

[Sawgrass]

Vindog, on 04 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

If you believe a ball may be lost outside the hazard you may play a provisional.  Is this not correct?  Yes, you may play a provisional as long as you're not sure that the ball is in a water hazard.  But it does make some uninformed people crazy.

27-2c even states that you may abandon the ball if it's determined to be lost in a water hazard.  If you hit a provisional because your ball may be lost outside a water hazard, and then determine that it's KVC that the ball is in the water hazard, you must (not may) abandon the provisional -- even if you decide that the water hazard relief option you want is stroke and distance.  In that case pick up your provisional and walk back to the tee.

Obviously playing the provisional would put you on your 4th shot from the fairway, as opposed to hitting 3 after the hazard relief (if you took a drop).  So there isn't any advantage to it, but it's an option, especially now with the wording change and the indirect effect of increased "lost balls"  The value of hitting a provisional is that in some cases it saves time.  If you think your first ball may or may not be lost outside a water hazard you're welcome to hit a provisional, and then, if you later determine that the ball is not KVC to be in the hazard, you can play the provisional and not have to walk back to the tee.  Yes, someone could attempt to lie and manipulate the situation based on the quality of the provisional, but the Rules are written for honest people.  In any case, if some one is trying to cheat, they'd probably be better off by insisting that the original was in the water, not by insisting that it was lost.

[DaveLeeNC]

Just a general/related comment. I was once (a number of years ago) playing a course for the 1st time. We were on a par 5, into the sun (late in the day), where the tee shot landing area 'necks down' to about 10 yards max (lateral hazards left and right). I hit what I thought was a perfect 5w layup, right down the middle (into the sun), and short of the 'neck area'. There was no rough in the area (just fairway and hazard boundaries) and there was no ball. We all decided that it just had to be in one of the two hazards, but we honestly didn't know which one.

This was back in maybe 2003 and I don't even remember how I played it. Mostly we were trying to finish the round before dark, so I am pretty sure that I didn't go back to the tee. It was a team competition so I probably just took my ball 'out of the hole', did something reasonable for handicap purposes, and moved on. But I recall the odd situation very clearly.

dave

[Mr. Bean]

Sawgrass, on 05 January 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Vindog, on 04 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

If you believe a ball may be lost outside the hazard you may play a provisional.  Is this not correct?  Yes, you may play a provisional as long as you're not sure that the ball is in a water hazard.  But it does make some uninformed people crazy.

27-2c even states that you may abandon the ball if it's determined to be lost in a water hazard.  If you hit a provisional because your ball may be lost outside a water hazard, and then determine that it's KVC that the ball is in the water hazard, you must (not may) abandon the provisional -- even if you decide that the water hazard relief option you want is stroke and distance.  In that case pick up your provisional and walk back to the tee.

Obviously playing the provisional would put you on your 4th shot from the fairway, as opposed to hitting 3 after the hazard relief (if you took a drop).  So there isn't any advantage to it, but it's an option, especially now with the wording change and the indirect effect of increased "lost balls"  The value of hitting a provisional is that in some cases it saves time.  If you think your first ball may or may not be lost outside a water hazard you're welcome to hit a provisional, and then, if you later determine that the ball is not KVC to be in the hazard, you can play the provisional and not have to walk back to the tee.  Yes, someone could attempt to lie and manipulate the situation based on the quality of the provisional, but the Rules are written for honest people.  In any case, if some one is trying to cheat, they'd probably be better off by insisting that the original was in the water, not by insisting that it was lost.

Sawgrass put it well and exactly right. That is the way it goes.

[Augster]

Sawgrass, on 05 January 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

If you believe a ball may be lost outside the hazard you may play a provisional.  Is this not correct?  Yes, you may play a provisional as long as you're not sure that the ball is in a water hazard.  But it does make some uninformed people crazy.

People go bananas (or another Ape related action) when you try to hit a provisional ball when your original ball "could" be in the hazard.  I run into this a lot at my course.

Our 15th hole has red hazards on both sides of a tight par 5 from the tee.  There are no hazards, it's just woods, so it is marked incorrectly which I hate.  It is marked that way to "speed up play".  Anytime I hook one into the "hazard" woods, or push one into the other "hazard" woods, I always announce my provisional ball.  People just flip out.  "YOU CAN'T HIT A PROVISIONAL ITS A HAZARD!!!"

I always tell them, "I heard it hit trees on the edge of the hazard.  It could be in the hazard.  It could be in the fairway.  It could be in play on the #5 tee box (which is on the other side of the ficticious "hazard") or it could be in the other hazard.  Did anyone see it come to rest?"  So I forge on and hit my provisional under protest from others.  If I physically find the ball in the hazard, I'll take my hazard relief and abandon the provisional.  But any other time, I'm lying three where my provisional is.

More often than not on that hole, if you hear it hit a tree, it'll bounce back into the fairway.  The woods are severely sloped on both sides, so most caroms feed back down the hills.  Many times I've been told I can't hit a provisional because my ball is in the hazard.  I hit the provsional anyway, and find my original ball in the middle of the fairway. I usually get pretty sarcastic with the player who told me he "knew" my ball was in the hazard so I couldn't hit a provisional at that point.

Edited by Augster, 07 January 2013 - 10:21 PM.
Profanity