46 replies to this topic

[MonteScheinblum]

cwillgolfer, on 08 January 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

The hip turn is something I have been struggling with for some time.  I don't know if it is my flexibility or why exactly.  During practice swings in front of a mirror, I can make a good hip turn, but whenever I try to get the hips moving on a real swing, my right leg tends to straighten and my weight seems to move a little bit forward towards the target, or almost no hip turn at all.  One thing I have been working on that seems to work a little bit is for me to try and drop my left shoulder more down in the backswing ( more down, less around).  It seems to automatically force my hips to move more.  Does this make any sense.  As far as flexibility goes, I tend to have very tight muscles in my hamstrings and glutes.  I stretch these as much as I can.

Yes, that does make sense.  That makes your shoulder turn a little more vertical, which makes room for the right hip to work more up and that gets it deeper.  If the right hip works more up, there is more room for the right elbow to get in front of the hip on the downswing, you are more linked up and should be less "flippy" as you said n the OP.

[SunkTheBirdie]

cwillgolfer, on 08 January 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Better hip turn  

MonteScheinblum, on 08 January 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

That makes your shoulder turn a little more vertical, which makes room for the right hip to work more up and that gets it deeper.

I tried that and it seemed to help.
I also tried to turn flatter than normal, and I felt my hip turn alot but not go up at all.

Quote

If the right hip works more up, there is more room for the right elbow to get in front of the hip on the downswing, you are more linked up and should be less "flippy" as you said n the OP.

The more room for the right elbow the better !

 setup.9.to.3.drill.jpg   25.15K   0 downloads
I also tried a few other setup changes to improve my hip turn.

I felt widening my stance made it easier to achieve a nice "deep and up" hip turn.
I felt narrowing my stance made it harder to achieve a nice "deep and up" hip turn.

I also felt that the more weight I had shift to my back foot (slide) .... all but prevented a good hip turn and all I could do is straighten my leg (lose the bend in the right leg).  Conversely, if I started the hip turning early in the swing a deep hip turn was quite a bit easier.  

cwillgolfer:  I say try a few things and see how it affects your hips turning.
(1) widen your stance a bit.  In this DTL view, hard to assess your stance, but it may even be on the narrow side ?
(2) get your right hip starting to turn back earlier, ensuring it's turning before too much weight is on the right (back) foot.

Monte: what do you think about those "tweaks"  ?
Cool thread everyone.  
Thanks.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Look at the wide stance on Billy Casper and the MUCHO leverage in that right hip.
Now, that's alotta hips !
 hip.slant.billy.casper.jpg   67.24K   2 downloads
(and look how wide his stance is).

To further illustrate stance and ability to have a nice deep and up hip turn ... put your feet together ...  try to bend your left knee ... for every inch you bend the left knee, the right knee straightens.   No other options !

[JPeacockGolf]

SunkTheBirdie, on 09 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Look at the wide stance on Billy Casper and the MUCHO leverage in that right hip.
Now, that's alotta hips !
hip.slant.billy.casper.jpg
(and look how wide his stance is).

To further illustrate stance and ability to have a nice deep and up hip turn ... put your feet together ...  try to bend your left knee ... for every inch you bend the left knee, the right knee straightens.   No other options !

Those images go a long way to illustrate how some people misinterpret the hip turn. It is a dynamic motion. So many people get hung up on positions that they want to be able to stand in front of a camera or mirror and "perform" a perfect back swing. There is no physical way to do this. Look at those images and imagine what would happen if they stopped there and didn't continue the swing. They would fall over toward the target and crash to the ground. That is not a static position. Their weight (through correct positioning) is already falling back to the front side without them pushing or shifting. Imagine if a gymnast tried to achieve a perfect position half way through a back flip. It's not going to happen. It is a dynamic motion that once set in motion and can't be stopped.
If you feel you are "holding" a lot of weight in your legs and hips you will undoubtably be restricted. You must be light on your feet and turn back and thru without feeling like you are doing squats.  It should feel a lot more graceful and a lot less powerful. A graceful body equals a powerful club head.
I'm not saying you can't work on your back swing. But when you work on your back swing it must be done with the main intention being swinging the club through the ball. Again, light on the feet and  graceful, not weighted and powerful, is very important to avoid hip restriction.

[cwillgolfer]

SunkTheBirdie, on 09 January 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

cwillgolfer, on 08 January 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Better hip turn  

MonteScheinblum, on 08 January 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

That makes your shoulder turn a little more vertical, which makes room for the right hip to work more up and that gets it deeper.

I tried that and it seemed to help.
I also tried to turn flatter than normal, and I felt my hip turn alot but not go up at all.

Quote

If the right hip works more up, there is more room for the right elbow to get in front of the hip on the downswing, you are more linked up and should be less "flippy" as you said n the OP.

The more room for the right elbow the better !

 setup.9.to.3.drill.jpg   25.15K   0 downloads
I also tried a few other setup changes to improve my hip turn.

I felt widening my stance made it easier to achieve a nice "deep and up" hip turn.
I felt narrowing my stance made it harder to achieve a nice "deep and up" hip turn.

I also felt that the more weight I had shift to my back foot (slide) .... all but prevented a good hip turn and all I could do is straighten my leg (lose the bend in the right leg).  Conversely, if I started the hip turning early in the swing a deep hip turn was quite a bit easier.  

cwillgolfer:  I say try a few things and see how it affects your hips turning.
(1) widen your stance a bit.  In this DTL view, hard to assess your stance, but it may even be on the narrow side ?
(2) get your right hip starting to turn back earlier, ensuring it's turning before too much weight is on the right (back) foot.

Monte: what do you think about those "tweaks"  ?
Cool thread everyone.  
Thanks.

  

This particular picture was when I was working on the 9 to 3 drill and then trying to incorporate it into full 9 irons.  For this, I did have a narrower than usual stance.  I have felt that a narrower stance allows my hips to move a little more, but once again, mostly on practice swings, and as soon as I make a move at a ball, the hips tend to be more restricted again.

As far as my hands being close and not having room, again, doing the 9 to 3 drill.  I tend to have a bit more room at set-up on full shots, and I have tinkered with the ball position a little further away, but historically I have fought an only arm swing backswing with a lift to the top (lots of seperation between left arm and chest, and pushing the ball further away seems to bring that back into my swing a bit, so I stopped trying it.

[cwillgolfer]

AllenResGolf, on 05 January 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

You have a fantastic swing, there are little things that you can improve on. Here are a few images of your swing show some things to look at.


This is a very good takaway the club is parallel to the ground  and target line. (P2)
The circle show that the club head is inline with your hands, you want the club head there or just outside the hands.

cwill1.jpg

You are a little laid off here, but its not to bad. Everyone has a little bit of difference here anyway.

cwill2.jpg

This is your down swing, the red lines are what I call the slot, you want to make sure your hands/club don't
get outside these lines. Ideally you want to be on the white line or just under it. You are a little bit outside it. Still very good.

cwill3.jpg

The circles show how much more you foot is off the ground and that your hips are much more open then tigers. You do a great job keeping your right knee moving towards your left knee. The thing you should work on is trying to not get the hips open to much before impact and to keep the back foot down (roll it on the instep towards your left)more through impact. Some players lift it more that others. Tiger lifts his foot more during his drives but he makes sure he is moving his right knee towards his left.

cwill4.jpg


Here is Anthony Kim with the driver.

ak.jpg

Here is Grant Waite with the driver.

gw.jpg

You can see the difference between the two in regards to the foot work but the things they do the same is that they do a great job rolling the foot on the instep towards their left side.

I hope this helps
AllenResGolf

Than you all for the advice.  I hadn't really thought to much on the rolling of the right instep.  I have seen that my right foot comes up pretty early, and it has gotten much better over the years.  I was goofy around last night and tried doing this, and it seemed like it slowed my hips down a little bit.  I plan on going to the range at some point today and think I will work on this along with continuing what Monte and I discussed on dropping the left shouilder more (less around) on the backswing, wich feels like it opens my hips up a bit.  As usual, I will be going to the range with too many swing thoughts.  I'll post more videos and see if there are any changes.

[cwillgolfer]

Scratch that idea.  Actively trying to kick my right knee in and roll my right instep on the downswing was no good.   Way to much thinking and not enough swinging.  Lower body was very active.  I erased the video from the camera to make room for more footage as soon as I viewed it.

On another note, after this failed swing thought, I started to just swing the club forward and then back to just get a feel of the club swinging, less of hitting a ball.  The video actually looks ok.  Camera angle was off, but looks like I might be keeping my but against the wall a little better.  Hips still not moving as much as I would like going back though.

[JPeacockGolf]

cwillgolfer, on 09 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

On another note, after this failed swing thought, I started to just swing the club forward and then back to just get a feel of the club swinging, less of hitting a ball.  The video actually looks ok.  Camera angle was off, but looks like I might be keeping my but against the wall a little better.  Hips still not moving as much as I would like going back though.

That's the ticket..... Check my earlier post to free up the hips. Can't feel like a weight lifter, feel like a dancer.

[MonteScheinblum]

cwillgolfer, on 09 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Scratch that idea.  Actively trying to kick my right knee in and roll my right instep on the downswing was no good.   Way to much thinking and not enough swinging.  Lower body was very active.  I erased the video from the camera to make room for more footage as soon as I viewed it.

On another note, after this failed swing thought, I started to just swing the club forward and then back to just get a feel of the club swinging, less of hitting a ball.  The video actually looks ok.  Camera angle was off, but looks like I might be keeping my but against the wall a little better.  Hips still not moving as much as I would like going back though.

If this is what you mean...really good drill for any golfer.

[cwillgolfer]

To some extent yes.  I was making practice swings back and forth, however a bit longer than your video, and then stepping up to the ball and taking a full swing starting with the club about a foot or two in front of the ball and swinging back from there.  Years ago when I had a really flat all arms backswing, I would do this same thing to get more on plane.  Doing this today, I almost felt like I would loose focus on the ball and just swing with the ball in the way.

[JPeacockGolf]

cwillgolfer, on 09 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

I almost felt like I would loose focus on the ball and just swing with the ball in the way.

This!

[JPeacockGolf]

MonteScheinblum, on 09 January 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

cwillgolfer, on 09 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Scratch that idea.  Actively trying to kick my right knee in and roll my right instep on the downswing was no good.   Way to much thinking and not enough swinging.  Lower body was very active.  I erased the video from the camera to make room for more footage as soon as I viewed it.

On another note, after this failed swing thought, I started to just swing the club forward and then back to just get a feel of the club swinging, less of hitting a ball.  The video actually looks ok.  Camera angle was off, but looks like I might be keeping my but against the wall a little better.  Hips still not moving as much as I would like going back though.

If this is what you mean...really good drill for any golfer.

this is a great drill for finding the correct ball position as well.

[MonteScheinblum]

thesponge, on 09 January 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:

MonteScheinblum, on 09 January 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

cwillgolfer, on 09 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Scratch that idea.  Actively trying to kick my right knee in and roll my right instep on the downswing was no good.   Way to much thinking and not enough swinging.  Lower body was very active.  I erased the video from the camera to make room for more footage as soon as I viewed it.

On another note, after this failed swing thought, I started to just swing the club forward and then back to just get a feel of the club swinging, less of hitting a ball.  The video actually looks ok.  Camera angle was off, but looks like I might be keeping my but against the wall a little better.  Hips still not moving as much as I would like going back though.

If this is what you mean...really good drill for any golfer.

this is a great drill for finding the correct ball position as well.

Good point.  Totally agree.

[HappyGas]

thesponge, on 05 January 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

SunkTheBirdie, on 04 January 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

thesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

The solution is definitely not to try and emulate these positions. I think it is an "intention" issue. You are hanging back and hitting at the ball with your hands as Lowrey is swinging through the ball. Big difference. Lowrey is using the momentum of the club head created by the swing and whipping it through the ball. Soft hands and passive,rubber band-like wrists....You are using the muscles in your hands and arms to swing AT the ball. Grip is tightening into the ball and active wrists. The club head should be controlled with momentum, not muscles.

Words to live by.
Great description of Swinging through the ball.



+1.

Go read Extraordinary Golf ((Fred Shoemaker)).

He talks about all of this.   Great Book.




Maybe the better term is turning through the ball or pivoting through the ball.

The word swing makes me think using my hands.  Not as much as hitting mind you !
What about Turn // Pivot through the ball ?  Too confusing ?
]

Hands are very important in the golf swing . They are the conduit where the weight of the club is fed into the subconscious. We must listen to these cues to ALLOW our hands to work correctly. You are swinging the club head. If I handed you an axe and told you to chop down a tree would you think "pivot into the tree"? Heck no, you would heave the axe back and allow your subconscious to feel the weight of it and whip that sucker into the tree. Obviously chopping a tree is easier than golf but we get so wrapped up in thought that we block out our incredibly powerful natural ability. A couple of million years of evolution is much better than some feeble swing thought!!

[SunkTheBirdie]

cwillgolfer, on 09 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

I would loose focus on the ball and just swing with the ball in the way.

As a handsy two planer I can't imagine it's possible.
I hope to be there one day myself.

[cwillgolfer]

SunkTheBirdie, on 10 January 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

cwillgolfer, on 09 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

I would loose focus on the ball and just swing with the ball in the way.

As a handsy two planer I can't imagine it's possible.
I hope to be there one day myself.

I am by no means there. I definitely use my hands to hit at the ball.  While doing this drill, I think my head was rotating thru a bit more as my shoulders would turn thru, hence the loosing a bit of focus on the ball.

[cwillgolfer]

updated a video and took it from 4 different angles.  These were 4 different swings, so it might look a little different.  To me it looks like I free my hips a little, but not on all swings, so definitely need to keep working on it.  I did add a downswing thought that seemed to work very well.  Stay down until my right shoulder hit my chin and then let my head turn with the shoulders and come up to a finish.