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Working on my swing. Trying to be less flippy


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#1 cwillgolfer

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:33 PM

Thoughts on my swing? I have just made a few changes tring to get a little more lag.  Ball flight is good and distance has gotten a bit better.  I still see things I need to work on, but am having difficulty. I still feel like I bump the goat a little. No mater what I do, I can't see to not be laid off at the top. Not sure if contributes to my other faults. I used to hit a nice fade, but can't seem to get it back as my normal ball flight. Mainly working on things to get rid of the occasional pull hook with the driver. Any thoughts, drills, etc... Would be appreciated.


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#2 HappyGolf

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:12 PM

Good looking swing that. Looks like your head backs out (away) from the ball into impact and i think that move actually causes your shoulders to slow down their rotation 'assisting' the club to flip. Personally i think you could do with having a few more inches of forward shaft lean (towards the target) on your club into impact. This will stop you having the feeling of needing to pull away from the ball... and you can go harder with the shoulders then.

#3 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:05 PM





Attached File  sdaurfandgolf.impact.dec22.jpg   54.49K   3 downloads

Great swing.
I'm studying impact and I think the best ballstrikers have a bit more shaft lean than what you have here.
Offtopic: what camera are you using ?

#4 russc

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:41 PM

Two things.You need to rotate your hips more going back going back .
You also need to slot the club more like Mr Hogan in the below video .To do this the right elbow goes down and forward while the hands remain relatively stationary.


#5 cwillgolfer

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

I have been working on trying to get my hips rotating more on the backswing to try and give myself more room for my arms.  I used to be worse than I currently am, but this has been a struggle for me to fix.

Camera is a Casio elixim f100 or something like that.  I don't have it with me right now so can't say the exact model.

Thanks for the input.

Should I worry about being layed off at the top?  Is this contributing to anything?


#6 russc

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:21 AM

View Postcwillgolfer, on 23 December 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

I have been working on trying to get my hips rotating more on the backswing to try and give myself more room for my arms.  I used to be worse than I currently am, but this has been a struggle for me to fix.

Camera is a Casio elixim f100 or something like that.  I don't have it with me right now so can't say the exact model.

Thanks for the input.

Should I worry about being layed off at the top?  Is this contributing to anything?
Laid off makes it easier to slot the club and make the right elbow move that i mentioned.Of course this can be taken to an extreme

#7 JPGolf FL

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM

You are getting very disconnected in the down swing. Your shoulders and hips are miles apart by the time you get to impact. This "sounds" like what people talk about when they say "get that separation between the upper and lower body". Bad idea. Your spine starts at your tail bone and runs to the neck. Therefore you are twisting the heck out of your spine to get into this position. The shoulders can separate from the lower body but not nearly that much. Take a look at these.

Posted Image
Look at how your left shoulder is still nearly glued to your chin. You are hanging the shoulders back looking for lag and separation when this should be happening in the right wrist as Lowrey shows here. Notice the separation of his left shoulder and chin. His shoulders are turning together as your right shoulder is turning but the left is not.

Posted Image
Here you can see Lowrey's shoulders are continuing to turn together and your left has barely moved. I caught the frame in yours a little early but you get the idea. His lag is starting to release, yours is nearly gone and you must hold the left shoulder back to time and FLIP it.
Posted Image
At impact you can see how huge the separation between your hips and shoulders is. Your shoulders have squeezed much closer to each other as Lowrey's have turned together. You can see how disconnected your arms are here as well.

The solution is definitely not to try and emulate these positions. I think it is an "intention" issue. You are hanging back and hitting at the ball with your hands as Lowrey is swinging through the ball. Big difference. Lowrey is using the momentum of the club head created by the swing and whipping it through the ball. Soft hands and passive,rubber band-like wrists....You are using the muscles in your hands and arms to swing AT the ball. Grip is tightening into the ball and active wrists. The club head should be controlled with momentum, not muscles.

The lack of hip turn going back is definitely an issue as well. This really helped me in this area.


Id be willing to bet that your practice swing looks really good. Here is a good way to translate it to the ball.


#8 BluehoseGolf

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:26 AM

The one thing that would really start helping you to hit a fade and do what /\ is telling you to do is finish left a lot harder.  Finishing left will help you get your body turning quicker and taking the flip out at the bottom.  I personally like your backswing position.  Its much easier to play better golf from a more laid off position than across the line because it takes a lot of timing out of your hands.

#9 cwillgolfer

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

Thanks for all the advice.  I've tried a couple of different things.  One is to work on the 9-3 to sync everything together and the other is just more hip turn.   I have added a couple more videos.  The backyard stuff is me working on hip turn only with a 5 iron.  The driving range videos are working on on the 9-3 and then a full shot with a 9 iron.  My thoughts are probably work on both, but I'll see what the experts like or dislike about both.                                     http://m.youtube.com...                http://m.youtube.com...                http://m.youtube.com...                http://m.youtube.com...h?v=sZJNP8mgUM8

Edited by cwillgolfer, 29 December 2012 - 07:34 PM.


#10 verderraul

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

View Postcwillgolfer, on 29 December 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

Thanks for all the advice.  I've tried a couple of different things.  One is to work on the 9-3 to sync everything together and the other is just more hip turn.   I have added a couple more videos.  The backyard stuff is me working on hip turn only with a 5 iron.  The driving range videos are working on on the 9-3 and then a full shot with a 9 iron.  My thoughts are probably work on both, but I'll see what the experts like or dislike about both. http://m.youtube.com...be.com...   http://m.youtube.com...be.com...    http://m.youtube.com...be.com...   http://m.youtube.com...h?v=sZJNP8mgUM8

The experts here will point out the issues, but i definitely see talent :) You will figure this rotary stuff out .
9-3 is a miniature full swing. If you are working on something : hip turn, sync etc etc. You would be better off doing that with a 9-3 rather than a full swing. I know it sounds boring and a lot work but this is the shortest way to fixing your issues.

Cheers.


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#11 cwillgolfer

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

Thanks.  The driving range session was all 9-3 drill with a few full shots (still felt like less than 3/4) at the end.  Today I had a new thought and thought I would give it a try in the backyard, hence the other video clips.  Just curious if one is moving in the better direction than the other or blend the 2 (work on 9-3 and incorporate the hip turn).  I have struggled with the hip turn, but thought I would try straightening the right leg to get the hips moving better.

#12 verderraul

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

View Postcwillgolfer, on 29 December 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Thanks.  The driving range session was all 9-3 drill with a few full shots (still felt like less than 3/4) at the end.  Today I had a new thought and thought I would give it a try in the backyard, hence the other video clips.  Just curious if one is moving in the better direction than the other or blend the 2 (work on 9-3 and incorporate the hip turn).  I have struggled with the hip turn, but thought I would try straightening the right leg to get the hips moving better.

The hip turn issue is quite evident. In the 9-3 videos, the right pocket hardly moved 2 inches. The back swing is long as well...your club gets stuck behind and causes you to steepen rather than shallow the club in early downswing.

I am sure the experts will chime in shortly :)

#13 cogo22

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:15 PM

Just be careful adding all of these elements. Thesponge posted some interesting photos, some of which directly apply to your situation. IF you want to KEEP playing a fade, DO NOT change your 'laid off' position at the top. This is what allows you to get 'more steep' in your downswing which leads to your fade positions. In my opinion I would not be working on a whole lot if you are hitting it solid. What is the goal here? IF you want to get the fade back and currently are not, you could certainly add elements like 'going harder left' by feeling like you rotate your shoulders more in downswing or a feeling of getting the shaft more the the left. You have a 'shallow' element in your backswing which leads to your 'steep' move in your downswing. IF you want more of a fade, add another steep element. I wouldn't touch the backswing. Probably a downswing, impact or post impact factor. Shoulders and shaft going more to the left on the downswing WILL prevent the pull-hook. Best of luck, good looking swing, pal. Make sure you know WHY you're changing or adding something BEFORE you do.

#14 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

View Postthesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

The solution is definitely not to try and emulate these positions. I think it is an "intention" issue. You are hanging back and hitting at the ball with your hands as Lowrey is swinging through the ball. Big difference. Lowrey is using the momentum of the club head created by the swing and whipping it through the ball. Soft hands and passive,rubber band-like wrists....You are using the muscles in your hands and arms to swing AT the ball. Grip is tightening into the ball and active wrists. The club head should be controlled with momentum, not muscles.
Words to live by.
Great description of Swinging through the ball.

Maybe the better term is turning through the ball or pivoting through the ball.

The word swing makes me think using my hands.  Not as much as hitting mind you !
What about Turn // Pivot through the ball ?  Too confusing ?
]

#15 JPGolf FL

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:55 AM

View PostSunkTheBirdie, on 04 January 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

View Postthesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

The solution is definitely not to try and emulate these positions. I think it is an "intention" issue. You are hanging back and hitting at the ball with your hands as Lowrey is swinging through the ball. Big difference. Lowrey is using the momentum of the club head created by the swing and whipping it through the ball. Soft hands and passive,rubber band-like wrists....You are using the muscles in your hands and arms to swing AT the ball. Grip is tightening into the ball and active wrists. The club head should be controlled with momentum, not muscles.
Words to live by.
Great description of Swinging through the ball.

Maybe the better term is turning through the ball or pivoting through the ball.

The word swing makes me think using my hands.  Not as much as hitting mind you !
What about Turn // Pivot through the ball ?  Too confusing ?
]
Hands are very important in the golf swing ;). They are the conduit where the weight of the club is fed into the subconscious. We must listen to these cues to ALLOW our hands to work correctly. You are swinging the club head. If I handed you an axe and told you to chop down a tree would you think "pivot into the tree"? Heck no, you would heave the axe back and allow your subconscious to feel the weight of it and whip that sucker into the tree. Obviously chopping a tree is easier than golf but we get so wrapped up in thought that we block out our incredibly powerful natural ability. A couple of million years of evolution is much better than some feeble swing thought!!


#16 chiva

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 02:28 AM

View Postthesponge, on 05 January 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

View PostSunkTheBirdie, on 04 January 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

View Postthesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

The solution is definitely not to try and emulate these positions. I think it is an "intention" issue. You are hanging back and hitting at the ball with your hands as Lowrey is swinging through the ball. Big difference. Lowrey is using the momentum of the club head created by the swing and whipping it through the ball. Soft hands and passive,rubber band-like wrists....You are using the muscles in your hands and arms to swing AT the ball. Grip is tightening into the ball and active wrists. The club head should be controlled with momentum, not muscles.
Words to live by.
Great description of Swinging through the ball.

Maybe the better term is turning through the ball or pivoting through the ball.

The word swing makes me think using my hands.  Not as much as hitting mind you !
What about Turn // Pivot through the ball ?  Too confusing ?
]
Hands are very important in the golf swing ;). They are the conduit where the weight of the club is fed into the subconscious. We must listen to these cues to ALLOW our hands to work correctly. You are swinging the club head. If I handed you an axe and told you to chop down a tree would you think "pivot into the tree"? Heck no, you would heave the axe back and allow your subconscious to feel the weight of it and whip that sucker into the tree. Obviously chopping a tree is easier than golf but we get so wrapped up in thought that we block out our incredibly powerful natural ability. A couple of million years of evolution is much better than some feeble swing thought!!


Great post!

#17 mizunostaffer

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:24 AM

flip is an effect, if the body is more open at impact there will be less of an effect

#18 JPGolf FL

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:07 AM

View Postmizunostaffer, on 05 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

flip is an effect, if the body is more open at impact there will be less of an effect
Exactly, and if you have the correct intention, your body knows it must be open. Like skipping a stone over water, no need to think "pivot thru".

#19 AllenResGolf

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

You have a fantastic swing, there are little things that you can improve on. Here are a few images of your swing show some things to look at.


This is a very good takaway the club is parallel to the ground  and target line. (P2)
The circle show that the club head is inline with your hands, you want the club head there or just outside the hands.

Attached File  cwill1.jpg   50.53K   2 downloads

You are a little laid off here, but its not to bad. Everyone has a little bit of difference here anyway.

Attached File  cwill2.jpg   58.18K   1 downloads

This is your down swing, the red lines are what I call the slot, you want to make sure your hands/club don't
get outside these lines. Ideally you want to be on the white line or just under it. You are a little bit outside it. Still very good.

Attached File  cwill3.jpg   53.66K   2 downloads

The circles show how much more you foot is off the ground and that your hips are much more open then tigers. You do a great job keeping your right knee moving towards your left knee. The thing you should work on is trying to not get the hips open to much before impact and to keep the back foot down (roll it on the instep towards your left)more through impact. Some players lift it more that others. Tiger lifts his foot more during his drives but he makes sure he is moving his right knee towards his left.

Attached File  cwill4.jpg   65.29K   3 downloads


Here is Anthony Kim with the driver.

Attached File  ak.jpg   29.38K   2 downloads

Here is Grant Waite with the driver.

Attached File  gw.jpg   22.51K   1 downloads

You can see the difference between the two in regards to the foot work but the things they do the same is that they do a great job rolling the foot on the instep towards their left side.

I hope this helps
AllenResGolf

#20 AllenResGolf

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

This impact positon is really good.

Attached File  cwillfo1.jpg   106.45K   0 downloads


Here is a few videos to help with the flipping issue.






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#21 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

View PostAllenResGolf, on 05 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

This impact positon is really good.
Is it that good ?
I thought you wanted a nice shaft lean at impact ?
Hands ahead of the ball at impact.
Attached File  hands.not.ahead.of.ball.before.impact.jpg   47.17K   0 downloads

#22 verderraul

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:06 PM

View Postthesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:



This guy looks like a frog in a blender :)
Way too many body movements. Is this a good model to follow ?

#23 AllenResGolf

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

View PostSunkTheBirdie, on 05 January 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

View PostAllenResGolf, on 05 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

This impact positon is really good.
Is it that good ?
I thought you wanted a nice shaft lean at impact ?
Hands ahead of the ball at impact.
Attached File  hands.not.ahead.of.ball.before.impact.jpg   47.17K   0 downloads


The shaft is accually back more than that, the camera just makes it look more forward. The frame rate is'nt high enough to see it.

The red line is where the ball was, the blue line is the shaft.

Attached File  cwillshaft.jpg   59.5K   0 downloads

Edited by AllenResGolf, 05 January 2013 - 04:47 PM.


#24 JPGolf FL

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:14 PM

View Postverderraul, on 05 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

View Postthesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:



This guy looks like a frog in a blender :)
Way too many body movements. Is this a good model to follow ?
Meaning his swing or his instruction?

#25 verderraul

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

View Postthesponge, on 05 January 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

View Postverderraul, on 05 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

View Postthesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:



This guy looks like a frog in a blender :)
Way too many body movements. Is this a good model to follow ?
Meaning his swing or his instruction?

his swing. he moves around way too much for my taste.


#26 JPGolf FL

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

View Postverderraul, on 05 January 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

View Postthesponge, on 05 January 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

View Postverderraul, on 05 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

View Postthesponge, on 23 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:



This guy looks like a frog in a blender :)
Way too many body movements. Is this a good model to follow ?
Meaning his swing or his instruction?

his swing. he moves around way too much for my taste.
Shawn does exaggerate his motions a bit but I think that is to get a point across. Id much rather see a big body turn than a spine twisting, stiff hipped, x-factor move!!!! Check out some slo-mo Hogan. His body and hips turned just as much. Not to mention that Bubba guy, I think he won a big tournament last year :lol:

#27 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:30 PM

You have a good swing.

You really need to work on nothing but more backswing hip turn (as has been mentioned already) and learn to link your body up better.




Pulling the handle
I am so so steep
Shankopotomus finds me
.
.
I am Gavrilo Princip

#28 JPGolf FL

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 05 January 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

You have a good swing.

You really need to work on nothing but more backswing hip turn (as has been mentioned already) and learn to link your body up better.



+1
Bigger hip turn going back should make linking up much easier/ keep you from getting so disconnected in the first place.

Edited by thesponge, 05 January 2013 - 11:38 PM.


#29 SunkTheBirdie

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:11 AM


Is this hip turn a bit restricted ?

#30 cwillgolfer

cwillgolfer

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:04 PM

The hip turn is something I have been struggling with for some time.  I don't know if it is my flexibility or why exactly.  During practice swings in front of a mirror, I can make a good hip turn, but whenever I try to get the hips moving on a real swing, my right leg tends to straighten and my weight seems to move a little bit forward towards the target, or almost no hip turn at all.  One thing I have been working on that seems to work a little bit is for me to try and drop my left shoulder more down in the backswing ( more down, less around).  It seems to automatically force my hips to move more.  Does this make any sense.  As far as flexibility goes, I tend to have very tight muscles in my hamstrings and glutes.  I stretch these as much as I can.


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